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Are we in the middle of a 3rd JRPG renaissance?
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
- Start date
Toadthemushroom
Member
The other games aren't, which I already stated several times in this thread. I disagree that those listed titles are renaissance-leading, and it's really just personal excitement fuelling the Op, which is 100% cool and fine.
Why should the other games matter anyway - pointing out that they aren't poster children for a JRPG renaissance suddenly doesn't make Sen III a poster boy either. It's still independent of the other games.
If I had to list a Falcom game I'd go with Ys VIII, which is bold and takes the series to new places. That feels exciting in ways that Sen III really doesn't.
I was going to say almost the same thing, and I actually enjoyed FFXV somewhat.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
It doesn't. Funny how you can show so much appreciative nuance for FF15s concepts yet not even pay basic attention to the actual situation Sen 2 left us with.
Rean's friendship didn't get him anywhere in that beyond giving him the confidence that a safety net of good friends would give any normal person.
Actual political problems as well as underlying ones relating to overall antagonist have remained unresolved.
That is not to say that I don't agree with a lot of other criticism towards the first 2 sen games but this statement is just a false representation that just reeks of not having played them or utter inattention to what actually happened in the games.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Sen 2 was such a safe, predictable game (not to be confused with bad or not good) and that's coming from someone who is invested in the series' overall narrative. Very little that we have seen of 3 suggests this will change.
What are you talking about?
Hard to really evaluate it. To some people it might be. But I am no longer the age I was then, and I don't see games the same way, nor do I really want to play all those games. I'm satisfied with having good experiences with a few games, and I look towards other media for good stories.
That being said, even if it is not a "renaissance" per say, it is at least a quality showing for Japanese rpgs.
That being said, even if it is not a "renaissance" per say, it is at least a quality showing for Japanese rpgs.
ThatStupidLion
Member
no because most of them arent even new IPs
but it is nice to have some stellar jrpgs being developed again
but it is nice to have some stellar jrpgs being developed again
During the SNES/PS1/PS2 era you had a bunch of huge Rpgs like Xenogears, Grandia, Suikoden, Breath of Fire,.Hack, etc, a lot of mid-tier games and some cheap JRPGs, besides at least 3 Final Fantasy per gen + a bunch of Tales of
Right now SE still has problems to launch most of their games, we have the Soulsborne and Xeno franchise, a bunch of cheap games from Compile Heart and other smallers companies, plus the Tales of
So we're not even close of that level
Right now SE still has problems to launch most of their games, we have the Soulsborne and Xeno franchise, a bunch of cheap games from Compile Heart and other smallers companies, plus the Tales of
So we're not even close of that level
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I dunno what you have with your "safe" pet peeve. All I can say I don't give a shit about anything I can think of relating to that. I care about the progression of several plot threads relating to the overall narrative. With many of them already being confirmed to be touched upon. I dunno why I would expect Trails overall to be some kind of revolutionary game that seems honestly dumb.
Even when I played Sora FC all those years ago I wasn't blown away by it being some unsafe innovative title. I was blown away by the care and intricacy of it's narrative and only after having played through couple more titles.
You want unsafe go play FF I guess according to some people. There you get your "unsafe all new innovative shit".
For people like me that have played all the titles in the series and have been somewhat deep into thinking where all these plot threads could possibly go, getting answers to some of these musing is the main thing about Sen 3 that makes it exciting. I mean what a fucking surprise for a title that is about "story" not production values, not gimmicks, not gameplay, but story.
Series spoiler:
I mean honestly I don't even know what people are doing if you're not looking forward to answers to Gaius possible plotline, 2 Septerrions, the managing system involving gnomes, witches. Vampires, Lianne Sandlot. More on Rutger and possible Baldur and many more things. If you don't care about the answer to any of these I honestly do not understand what makes Trails appealing then.
AyraSutoraifu
Member
With FF15 i'm in chapter 13 now. Skipped all side-quests besides getting the chocobos because i'm burned out by them and i wanted to enjoy a purer gameplay. I have every FF except 11. FFVII is my first FF back in 1997 and though it never reached the same heights as the psx era, i still enjoyed installments like FFXIII. But 15? F*ck sake
what happened? It's not a FF for first timers because it isn't doing a good job of what a FF supposed to be. It's not a FF for fans for reasons everybody knows. So, what is it then? I don't know. The story is extremely thin and incoherent. I get that it's told through dialogues while driving the car or walking. Something different like previous installments, fine by me.
But i have zero, i mean zero affection with the characters and their god awful names which explain the characters personality. And other irritations like
.
I'm getting the feeling FFXVI will be the series final straw for me.
But i have zero, i mean zero affection with the characters and their god awful names which explain the characters personality. And other irritations like
Noct's dad was killed and he barely responds. And that Leviathan fight, jeez.
I'm getting the feeling FFXVI will be the series final straw for me.
Novel Mike
Member
Predictable?
Major Cold Steel 2 SPOILER WARNING
Freaking Osborne being alive? Rean being his son? Rufus being an Ironblood?
I'll agree that I think that CS2 certainly plays out in a fairly predictable and at times underwhelming fashion but the major revelations at the very end of the game completely change the scope of what should be expected in CS3. CS2 ends...
On very sad note with Rean losing the support of his friends and in a vary damaged place. He's been used by his father and the Empire and he absolutely hates it but he doesn't feel he has a choice in the matter. He's been able to get by because of Class 7, his friends who have kept his spirit up and made him feel at home, with them gone we really don't know what that ultimately will do to him in CS3.
I really don't get how anyone could think THATS how CS2 would actually end, its a completely different tone then anything done in CS1 or CS2, hell the events of CS2 play out and it barely feels like a war happens but the ending is so dark when you really think about what Rean ultimately has to deal with all alone.
Toadthemushroom
Member
We're probably not on the same page here - you're talking about narrative. I'm talking about structure and game design.
This sentence lowers the credibility of your post, especially after I literally namedropped Ys VIII in my last post. There are so many games and followups that shake things up and be designed in exciting ways that aren't called Final Fantasy XV. Like I said, "safe and predictable" doesn't mean "bad" or "not good". But you can't surely use Sen III as evidence that the entire genre is in the middle of a renaissance. Even if the genre was under massive decline, Sen III would exist - it's the safest series for Falcom and one that brings in enough revenue that they can't afford to take risks with it. That's what I'm getting at.
I think this debate over Sen is rather pointless anyway, it's got little to do with whether the JRPG has seen a renaissance or not. See my next post...
Toadthemushroom
Member
I think the best way to gauge whether we're in the middle of a JRPG renaissance would be to look at how things have changed over time in terms of what's greenlit, what sort of risks publishers or developers might be taking, how the market for JRPGs is structured (is it still just AAA with some low-budget titles? Has it all moved to one platform?), which publishers are still investing heavily in the genre, and so on.
I don't think much has really changed over the last four years. And I suspect things might actually change for the worse for some publishers. If Lost Sphear performs poorly, Square Enix might not see Unity and lower-tier RPG development as something worth pursuing anymore. Likewise we're still a long ways off even platform holders heavily investing in the genre again. And as I mentioned previously in the thread, there are no signs of some developers (like Jupiter, Tri-Ace or Camelot) making bold comebacks or new developers replacing those who aren't in the business anymore (like Imageepoch).
I don't think much has really changed over the last four years. And I suspect things might actually change for the worse for some publishers. If Lost Sphear performs poorly, Square Enix might not see Unity and lower-tier RPG development as something worth pursuing anymore. Likewise we're still a long ways off even platform holders heavily investing in the genre again. And as I mentioned previously in the thread, there are no signs of some developers (like Jupiter, Tri-Ace or Camelot) making bold comebacks or new developers replacing those who aren't in the business anymore (like Imageepoch).
Novel Mike
Member
You're very post brings up the series overall narrative and is a reply to a post also discussing the narrative. When did we start talking about game design?
See:
and:
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Why does it lower the credibility of my post? Did you take it as some derogatory listing?
In that case stop right there. It was a genuine example. So it actually shouldn't matter that you namedropped Ys you can take it as both being examples of that.
Whether you like or dislike the quality of the new FF titles the narrative going around is def that each FF is new and different and tries to innovate so where's the problem in mentioning that it fulfulls the criteria you seem to have?
And yes the debate is pointless if you focus on the renaissance part I think most people including me wouldn't disagree with your point about these titles not qualifying at all. But why hammer that when the discussion also morphed into other directions.
Also there was no debate about Sen I was setting the record straight. When it seems like you imply that past Kiseki titles have not been "safe" games in several ways that is just simply wrong. Kiseki has always been safe in most things aside from trying to have this long multi game/console spanning narrative that can be as intricate and involved because it can have all these games to tell it.
Looks ugly, get a better .gif instead.I think that while that list does includes some good games, half of those are not even out so we cant really tell if they are good or not, also, I don't think we have reached the main stream level of acceptance that they had between the snes and ps2 era
chill, there is no shame in liking Yoshi or Kirby, specially Kirby
Toadthemushroom
Member
It does because you're cherry picking one game to represent many dozens of games.
I never even mentioned previous Kiseki games, only the most recent and the upcoming one. Actually, I'm in total agreement with this entire quote. I'm not sure what you're debating here.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I never mentioned Final Fantasy XV in that debate, though. I think you are mistaking someone else's post or reply for mine. ULTROS talked about FFXV. My argument was pretty simple: That Sen 3 isn't really renaissance material and it's not exactly going to rock the boat.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Just going to point out that the reason you dont see tri ace on consoles anymore is because stuff like star ocean 5, which might be viable in the ps2 era, isnt going to cut it by todays jrpg standards. Stuff like nioh, persona, nier, etc are much better and thats where the fans gravitate towards.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Yeah, that's also part of a wider symptom of market performance for sure.
Star Ocean 5 evidently seemed budget- and resource- starved, and Tri-Ace has proven that it could still make fun, quirky games with stuff like Resonance of Fate.
I agree that there isn't really a market for those games though, which was pretty much validated by their sales on the market, and why publishers are hesitant to greenlight more.
The collapse of the handheld market (in relative terms - combined DS and PSP hardware sales were 250m units and publishers didn't see mobile as a market to consider) probably hurt the genre a lot more since handheld RPGs were lower risk and were almost guaranteed an audience that'd ensure sustainable creation of more games.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Dude. Do you know what an example is?
Is your Ys VIII example now a cherry pick to represent many dozens of games too?
Pls actually just read what is there and don't make stupid assumptions like this.
Don#t think too hard it was a SINGLE example of what I assumed would fit your criteria of a "not safe" game.
Also no you just started an argument about how Sen 2 was the safest game ever and Sen 3 probably will be too, not even stating whatever you mean with safe or why that is some characteristic worth mentioning in relation to the series given that it has been that way always. That's like me randomly telling you DQ11 will have slimes dude.
Sorry if that made me confused and think you're implying that you thought it was safe unlike prior titles or something.
Novel Mike
Member
What are you talking about? You said you weren't talking about Narrative but about Game design in a reply to my post. I responded and linked your post and the post YOU quoted both of which were talking about Narrative. FFXV is only mentioned once the post you quoted, the rest is talking about Cold Steel.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Ys VIII is an example of a Falcom game releasing in the same timeframe as Sen 3 that shakes things up in a long-running series. Ys, as you're aware, doesn't sell as well in Japan, so Falcom can afford to take risks in pursuit of sales performance. Sen 3 is going to generate stable revenue for the business so they can't afford to change much between entries.
Your example represents far, far more than just another game from a developer - you're using it to paint a picture about what experimentation and risk taking across the entire genre can lead to.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Nah man it's you just making a ton of assumptions about the intention of my example so pls stop or at least make it clear that these are the things this example made YOU think of.
Nothing honestly annoys me more than other people putting words in my mouth. It kinda makes me not to post anything more when people are just going off in their own fantasies regarding all my intentions/statements.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Well I don't see it that way, so I don't think you need to either. I think you're also making a lot of assumptions about what I'm trying to say, but no offense or annoyance taken.
I don't see how this era comes close. When I was a kid I remember constantly being surprised by seeing new JRPGs pop up out of nowhere for me to play (I didn't follow game magazines very closely). FFIV/VI, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG, Earthbound were some of the ones I remember the most from SNES. Then with PS it felt like every time I beat a game another would pop up. Xenogears, Vagrant Story, FFVII/VIII/IX, Brave Fencer Musashi (never beat it but I liked this game a lot), Legend of Mana, Final Fantasy Tactics, then games friends had that I got a taste of but never had a chance to get into like Parasite Eve, Wild Arms, Chrono Cross.
I think the wonder of these games with not following news or development of them was a part of what made the era special for me, but I think it mostly boils down to the games just being so much better relative to technology of the time.
I think the wonder of these games with not following news or development of them was a part of what made the era special for me, but I think it mostly boils down to the games just being so much better relative to technology of the time.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Let's be honest, you made it pretty easy for people to make a host of assumptions when your initial contribution to the thread was just two words!
If you had explained why you think Sen III represents a JRPG renaissance then I don't think all of this confusion would have begun in the first place.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Pretty fucking funny when I tell you no this isn't what I meant pls don't make assumptions like that "I don't see it that way".
Also about me making wrong assumptions maybe fucking correct them instead of going off on fantasies of what I meant.
I'm always happy to correct but I'm pretty sure I laid out why based on your statements there was not enough there leaving me no choice to make certain assumptions.
Whereas I already said it was meant to be 1 example that seemed to fit the general idea of people of what an unsafe/innovating franchise is no deeper meaning or any of the shit you said about the implications of me citing it.
Somehow I only have this argument with you though, despite having other people already reply to it.
So dunno seems like other people had no problems knowing what I meant. Not that my issues have anything to do with that initial statement anyway but you specifically fantasizing stuff based on me using FF as an innocent example.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Alright. Thanks for making that clearer.
Vital Tundra
Member
It'll be a renaissance when we are getting AAA JRPG that aren't just from current franchises but plenty of new IP. And that's not happening.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
And I think it'll be a renaissance when we don't get pedantic hairsplitting over the definition (not you just some others in the recent past).
GoldandBlue
Member
I've certainly been playing more JRPGs this gen but not thanks to long running franchises like the Final Fantasy series which have lost me.
TLZ
Banned
SNES.
LegendofLex
Member
Maybe if you define "renaissance" purely as "renewed interest in classical material."
We aren't seeing lots of breakout JRPGs growing the audience, just consumers who grew up in the 80s and 90s spending more money on games that are like the ones they played as kids.
We aren't seeing lots of breakout JRPGs growing the audience, just consumers who grew up in the 80s and 90s spending more money on games that are like the ones they played as kids.
SciencePilot
Member
How can you make this thread without mentioning Bravely Default and Bravely Second? Two of the best jrpgs ever. And Bravely Second just came out last year.
These games are being overlooked too often on GAF. I just played them and was debating making an LTTP thread -- I think I'm going to do it now.
These games are being overlooked too often on GAF. I just played them and was debating making an LTTP thread -- I think I'm going to do it now.
While I don't think we're in a renaissance per say I do believe that the Japanese game industry had learned a lot about their failures last gen and have finally adapted to HD development.
Going forward we should see a increase in JRPG releases. As to the quality of said releases I remain hopeful.
Going forward we should see a increase in JRPG releases. As to the quality of said releases I remain hopeful.
Vital Tundra
Member
Very true. Basically this definition of JRpGs coming back in the big way would need to be like the PSX era of new and great IP in the genre.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
All I have to add here is that Tokyo Xanadu plays structure and game design even safer than Sen II or Sen III. Toxanadu literally just drops recycled Zwei (II)/Gurumin/Nayuta-derived systems and action into a Cold Steel-based modern-day setting and structure. Sen III's actually changing the flow of battle (by giving enemies the chances to S-Break!) in a way unprecedented for the series, and it could break up the structure into smaller pieces to handle storytelling for many separate plot-lines and characters more evenly. I agree that, compared to previous Ys titles, Lacrimosa of Dana's the newest and most exciting for synthesizing older Ys elements with the party system (Origin's arena mode, mid-2000s platforming, a solo story starring only a heroine, etc). Falcom's true renaissance, should it happen, would be escaping the Ys/Legend of Heroes/recycled Zwei-like mold via remakes of older IPs (Brandish, Popful Mail, etc) and different new IPs they could put out. But they're definitely not focusing on this until the Trails series concludes, freeing up their staff more.
Re: OP, we really aren't close to having a renaissance. There's no flow of throwaway capital, intrepid new developers risking it all on experimentation (not so much a career path as right now), and receptive audiences who aren't too busy to play games in the first place except on the train to work. Maybe, maybe if the vague but responsive "West" becomes more of a factor in Japanese developers' projected goals and finances (Falcom and NIS are starting on this path as we speak), developers' situations could stabilize to a point where bigger risks are worthwhile so long as they're balanced with safer but interesting releases.
Strangelove77
Member
Third? SNES up to PS2 was a whole era of good jrpgs. They never stopped until the 360/PS3 era.
If this is anything, it's a second renaissance. If it is at all.
If this is anything, it's a second renaissance. If it is at all.
Lights and Waves
Member
momshotdad
Member
Don't forget Nioh, Neir Automata, Tales series, and Atelier series and hell yeah we're in one and it's awesome.
Neoleo2143
Member
Hmmm, I can't quite agree with that. To me, it's more like JRPGs have finally stabilized to the point where people generally don't disparage them like in the 7th generation. The games we do have now are great but there's not enough refreshment in ideas I feel to really call it a renaissance.
Masterspeed
Member
I wouldn't class World of FF part of these big RPGS, I found it kinda dull.
Except that there is an enormous amount of ports and remakes included there, which really shouldn't count in this case.
Neoleo2143
Member
I actually ended up feeling that it was my favorite FF game this generation funnily enough. The Tutorializing sucks but there's a good bit of variety in the gameplay (from the different imprism strats) and it feels by far the most "complete" game. Plus Speed Up + ATB is a fun difficulty modifier. And it looks great to boot and justifies the Chibi look in a way that I rather like. And interventions are great.