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[Munti]

For me they are also not engineers (except software engineers maybe, as I don't know what they do exactly). I think it depends on the country how easy this title is given.

I read an article exactly about this topic once. It said that in english-speaking countries, nearly everything can be (and is beeing) labled with the term engineering, while in german-speaking countries for example, this title is highly protected.
Normally, you have to do high-level exams to get certified as engineer

 

[FyreWulff]

edit- actually you know what i don't like semantics threads

 

[tokkun]

You have FE?

The FE exists for electrical engineers. So does the PE. The process is identical to other disciplines. The difference is that employers don't care, so most people don't bother with it. This also means you have to go further out of your way to meet the requirement of working under a PE for X years.

 

[Principate]

Yes. I have a degree computer science and I graduated from my school's college of engineering

I'm not sure what your arguement is. My university has the computer science mathematics and engineering departments all under the same college. That doesn't make the 3 degrees interchangeable. Similar sure but hardly interchangeable.

 

[LosDaddie]

Clarify. In EE almost none of us get our PE because it's unnecessary.

Depends almost entirely on the field.

I also have my BS in EE and I earned my PE license last year. If an EE wants to have any type of real advancement in the construction/architecture industry, then a PE license is a must.

But yes, many EEs don't go for their PE. All should at least take the FE because you'll never know what kind of doors it opens.

 

[Hilbert]

Not only are they engineers, but cyber security Department of Defense people are members of the Air Force.

 

[Tathanen]

Of course what you describe is a real software engineer. I agree with you. I am talking about jobs giving the engineer title to people doing front end stuff like JavaScript, html and CSS. And just writing code.

This is total BS, there's an enormous amount of "engineering" in client-side code these days, entire applications are written in JavaScript and require all the foresight, planning, and architectural thinking that a backed system might.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm a web developer/designer and no I don't consider myself and engineer or would I consider anyone else an engineer in the field.

.

 

[Newline]

Dragging all people that work with software that's deployed to the web into one basket just doesn't work. There are those that develop using cookie cutter libraries and there's those that work on highly complex applications with esoteric business domains. Web developers certainly exist, software engineers that work within the web domain also exist. Some companies will obviously overextend by attributing the role of software engineer too liberally but to say that there can't be complex architectural decisions to be made in web applications is ridiculous.

 

[Raptor]

Yes, they are engineers. Next question, please.

How magnets work?

 

[OceanBlue]

What does it mean to be an engineer? Are embedded systems developers more engineers than compiler developers because they work with hardware? Or does it have to do with complexity?

 

[Akuun]

Bad programming can absolutely kill people. Coding must be just as foolproof as good mechanical/structural engineering when it comes to vital things like control systems on vehicles and heavy machinery, medical devices, and so on.

I would argue there should be licensing in place for developers working in the financial sector, medical systems, machine code, etc.

I think there is some sort of certification or licensing system, at least for medical devices.

Of course what you describe is a real software engineer. I agree with you. I am talking about jobs giving the engineer title to people doing front end stuff like JavaScript, html and CSS. And just writing code.

I do think using "engineer" as a buzzword in job titles is a bad trend. It dilutes the meaning and the training required to get the actual title. "Software Engineer" is fine if that's what the job actually entails, but a lot of employers just tack the word "engineer" on everything to make it sound good. One buzzword title I commonly see is "quality engineer" for a systems tester, or a writer, or pretty much any job, since that title is so vague it can apply to anything.

There was one job where I was tasked to update a manual written by my predecessor, and the guy had entered his job title as "quality engineer."

I fucking write instruction manuals. I'm not an engineer, man.

 

[Newline]

What does it mean to be an engineer? Are embedded systems developers more engineers than compiler developers because they work with hardware? Or does it have to do with complexity?

It has to do with how much someone in individually contributing. If they spend their time applying prebuilt tools to create an application I'd consider them a developer, if they are having to write their own algorithms to solve a specific problem then they're an engineer.

 

[Gunslinger]

It has to do with how much someone in individually contributing. If they spend their time applying prebuilt tools to create an application I'd consider them a developer, if they are having to write their own algorithms to solve a specific problem then they're an engineer.

That's a good explanation I think. If you are just calling standard library and calling function on std library objects with pre built algorithms I think you are a developer then.

 

[Gunblade47]

So Software Engineer is just an interchangeable term for Software Developers in job adverts for some countries? I was wondering why the US only has ads for that instead of developers.

I consider myself a developer. But my colleagues do make a point of it to call themselves engineers.

 

[Kelsdesu]

I believe this whole thing starts in College. Where a good amount of the math and science classes are the same/overlap, so that being said. Im cool with them calling themselves whatever they want.

What I find a little frustrating is when I see employers ask for EE,ME and Math majors or any other science degree for a devleoper job posting, but you never see a hiring manager for an engineering job do that kind of shit.


But that is a different story.

 

[Hilbert]

Bad programming can absolutely kill people. Coding must be just as foolproof as good mechanical/structural engineering when it comes to vital things like control systems on vehicles and heavy machinery, medical devices, and so on.


I think there is some sort of certification or licensing system, at least for medical devices.


I do think using "engineer" as a buzzword in job titles is a bad trend. It dilutes the meaning and the training required to get the actual title. "Software Engineer" is fine if that's what the job actually entails, but a lot of employers just tack the word "engineer" on everything to make it sound good. One buzzword title I commonly see is "quality engineer" for a systems tester, or a writer, or pretty much any job, since that title is so vague it can apply to anything.

There was one job where I was tasked to update a manual written by my predecessor, and the guy entered his job title as "quality engineer."

I fucking write instruction manuals. I'm not an engineer, man.

Just to be clear though, Quality Assurance Engineer or Software Design Engineer in Test can be highly technical positions where someone is responsible for building huge testing frameworks that can test quality on highly complex systems, determine code coverage, penetration testing, reporting and logging tools, etc.

It can be every bit as technical and complex as any other software job.

It has to do with how much someone in individually contributing. If they spend their time applying prebuilt tools to create an application I'd consider them a developer, if they are having to write their own algorithms to solve a specific problem then they're an engineer.

Everyone seems to know so much about what other people's jobs are!

 

[KHarvey16]

The "licensing is necessary because of safety" argument is not really a great one. Any and all regulated industries that produce physical items or software that could kill people by malfunctioning have strict processes and standards that must be met and approved. The safety of a product or piece of code should not rely on the competency of an individual.

 

[Gunslinger]

I believe this whole thing starts in College. Where a good amount of the math and science classes are the same/overlap, so that being said. Im cool with them calling themselves whatever they want.

What I find a little frustrating is when I see employers ask for EE,ME and Math majors or any other science degree for a devleoper job posting, but you never see a hiring manager for an engineering job do that kind of shit.


But that is a different story.

Yeah I seen that too. An electical engineering position will never hire a CS degree. But CS degree position will hire EE degree.

 

[LosDaddie]

When I started my career out of school, I was interested in going for my PE, but I couldn't even find a PE I knew well enough from 3 previous locations (Iowa, Georgia, New Mexico) to act as the necessary licensed reference on my application. I agree that it seems like a very niche thing in specific engineering fields that benefits you extremely little.

The FE exists for electrical engineers. So does the PE. The process is identical to other disciplines. The difference is that employers don't care, so most people don't bother with it. This also means you have to go further out of your way to meet the requirement of working under a PE for X years.

Again, for an EE, the benefits of having a PE license depends almost entirely on what field you go into. Some fields don't have their designs reviewed by governmental bodies, so a PE license doesn't matter. Other fields, you'd be amazed at what a PE license can do for your career, and it's a sure way to advance your career.

For Civil/Mech/Structural engineers, I'd say getting a PE license would almost be necessary.

 

[Newline]

Everyone seems to know so much about what other people's jobs are!

I'd class myself as a software engineer.

 

[Herne]

I would call them coders.

My C64 roots - not to mention my age - are showing.

 

[Akuun]

Just to be clear though, Quality Assurance Engineer or Software Design Engineer in Test can be highly technical positions where someone is responsible for building huge testing frameworks that can test quality on highly complex systems, determine code coverage, penetration testing, reporting and logging tools, etc.

It can be every bit as technical and complex as any other software job.

True, some QA jobs can be very technical and absolutely count as engineering jobs (and good QA people can be very hard to find!). That's totally fine. My problem is when the job is definitely not an engineering job, but a company still tacks "engineer" to the job title because it looks good.

So Software Engineer is just an interchangeable term for Software Developers in job adverts for some countries? I was wondering why the US only has ads for that instead of developers.

Yeah, "engineer" is sometimes used as a buzzword instead of an actual job title.

It gets worse. Some companies try to play cute and flowery (read: dumb) with job titles. "Looking for a Python Ninja Rockstar" and shit like that.

It's very silly.

 

[JeTmAn81]

What a blissfully ignorant comment.
Yes, they absolutely are.

I'm a software developer and I think OP's comment is totally germane. Most web developers are nowhere near the competency expected of someone called an engineer in other fields. It's a terribly overused title in software.

 

[OceanBlue]

It has to do with how much someone in individually contributing. If they spend their time applying prebuilt tools to create an application I'd consider them a developer, if they are having to write their own algorithms to solve a specific problem then they're an engineer.

So what about engineering that deals with existing processes like systems or industrial engineering?

I'm skeptical because, to my understanding, most work is built on the work of other people because of how complex the systems we use are. That's why tools are useful in the first place. Even people who do something like machine learning are using programming languages built by others so they don't have to worry about how a computer works and can focus on data analysis.

 

[Afrocious]

I am entertained by this nerd, dick-measuring contest.

Yeah, "engineer" is sometimes used as a buzzword instead of an actual job title.

It gets worse. Some companies try to play cute and flowery (read: dumb) with job titles. "Looking for a Python Ninja Rockstar" and shit like that.

It's very silly.

Now this I hate.

 

[Muffin1611]

What about software architects and general architects

 

[GulAtiCa]

Really kinda depends on what they do as web developers. I would say front end developers less so (still to some agree of course), but back end programmers for websites/etc very much so.

For example. At my website job, I am a back end programmer. I am a Software Engineer (my Major). I engineer solutions to problems on a daily basis. I don't particularly deal with making things pretty. More deal with the how things work and making things work correctly in complex systems.

 

[Korey]

"software engineer" and "programmer" are interchangeable terms in today's job market. They mean exactly the same thing.

If you code for a living, you are one. If you're a "front end developer" this would have to include at least Javascript.

The semantics and history of the words are completely irrelevant.

 

[Gunslinger]

I am entertained by this nerd, dick-measuring contest.



Now this I hate.

That's the whole point I made this thread. Is how the engineer title is given to anyone these days. If your job involves any tech then you are an engineer. I find it silly.

 

[Newline]

So what about engineering that deals with existing processes like systems or industrial engineering?

I'm skeptical because, to my understanding, most work is built on the work of other people because of how complex the systems we use are. That's why tools are useful in the first place. Even people who do something like machine learning are using programming languages built by others so they don't have to worry about how a computer works and can focus on data analysis.

Yeah no engineer is going to rewrite something that has been written by someone else, that'd be silly. If it's already available it's more likely that solution is proven, more reliable and well tested. However companies hire engineers to write the specific domain logic that isn't readily available publicly. Every company grows organically and with the company a set of unique requirements will grow with it, its the job of the engineers to build a reliable system to manage these specific requirements. Something you can't get out of a standard library.

 

[Deuce Deuce]

I personally never got into titles and such so specifically.

Programmer, Software Engineer, Architect, etc doesn't matter much to me.

 

[Paertan]

I develop FPGA:s using VHDL/Verilog/System Verilog etc where do I fit in then?

 

[Theonik]

Because lives could be in danger if your design is faulty?

Software peeps make mission critical nonsense too. No need to discriminate.

 

[Battlezone]

The need to constantly make a distinction seems to be borne out of insecurity and vanity on the part of engineers.

This.

Whenever I see "true" engineers complaining about this (which is often), I take great joy in telling them my official job title is Senior Design Engineer. I'm a UX designer. That's what I call myself, because that's what I do.

My title is engineer because of they way my company's pay structure and they needed to be competitive with pay in this market. So I'm an "engineer", even though myself, nor any of the other designers on my team refer to themselves as such.

It's just a title. It's not a big deal.

 

[shawnbuddy]

I'm a web dev, mostly working on back-end development. I'm not any kind of visual designer, I write web applications and modules. But I don't think I could call myself an engineer with a straight face. I mean, my degree is a BA in journalism.

 

[Garrett 2U]

Your question is flawed, what do you qualify as web development?

Using Wix could be considered 'web development'.
Creating a static HTML website could be considered 'web development'.
Creating an intricate social media website could be considered 'web development'.

The qualification of 'engineer' is being diluted as the quantity and variety of engineer-level tasks increases.
One team's job title may be 'engineer' whereas another team's job title, sharing the same responsibilities, may be 'developer'.

Put focus on your skill set and experience, it's what recruiters are interested in, anyways.

 

[Hubbl3]

I develop FPGA:s using VHDL/Verilog/System Verilog etc where do I fit in then?

Script kiddie!

Spoiler

Also, where is our all-in-one retro gaming console!

Software peeps make mission critical nonsense too. No need to discriminate.

Yep, especially in the world of aviation. Aircraft are highly automated these days. When a flight of F-22's first tried to fly across the Pacific, they had to turn around due to multiple bugs and system failures caused from crossing the international date line.

 

[Gunblade47]

Yeah, "engineer" is sometimes used as a buzzword instead of an actual job title.

It gets worse. Some companies try to play cute and flowery (read: dumb) with job titles. "Looking for a Python Ninja Rockstar" and shit like that.

It's very silly.

I've seen those but most seniors in the field that I've spoken to warned me that they must be trying to compensate for something that you'll only really realize once you're in the company so I steer clear of them.

 

[Newline]

This.

Whenever I see "true" engineers complaining about this (which is often), I take great joy in telling them my official job title is Senior Design Engineer. I'm a UX designer. That's what I call myself, because that's what I do.

My title is engineer because of they way my company's pay structure and they needed to be competitive with pay in this market. So I'm an "engineer", even though myself, nor any of the other designers on my team refer to themselves as such.

It's just a title. It's not a big deal.

It's actually mainly come around because of how bloated and competitive the industry has become. The term has slowly enveloped careers that wouldn't classically be described as engineers because they become more lucrative on that term. At the end of the day though the only thing that'll really define a role is how much it pays. One thing will never change, Fortune 500 companies will always be willing to pay 6 figure salaries to engineers that meet their needs because well, they really need them.

 

[DiabolicalBagel]

People doing things like that no, but actual software engineering yes. Unfortunately the title seems to have been adopted as an interchangeable term for developer in an effort to fluff up a position.
Actual software engineering is a thing, and it should probably be as protected as the rest of the engineering disciplines.

For actual software engineering, the folks saying "uh, it's not a physical engineering discipline, we have a responsibility to the public for safety, and thus have accreditation to practice and call ourselves engineers".
Well, good luck running the financial systems, flying your airliners, and controlling your nuclear reactors without thoroughly designed and produced software.
Just pull any random person off the street and get them to write that stuff, after all you don't need a proper engineer, right?

The modern world runs on software, it would collapse without out and any failure in a major system, just as with a physical construct, likely results in a death toll. That's a fact, get over it.
There should be resistance to just handing out the title to just anyone, it should be protected like any of other professions. Licences should be required for it but software production of a certain calibre should absolutely be considered a recognized and protected profession.

 

[Kelsdesu]

Yeah I seen that too. An electical engineering position will never hire a CS degree. But CS degree position will hire EE degree.

This is the thing that needs to be discussed.
Can a CS major take the FE?

 

[lyrick]

I'm a web dev, mostly working on back-end development. I don't think I could call myself an engineer with a straight face. I mean, my degree is a BA in journalism.

I'm titled as an Engineer in my company and have a role that mainly develops Machine Vision Systems. My BS was in Software Engineering (took the same Advanced Math (Calcs/DiffEQ/Linear/Stats/ along with additional Discrete branches) & Science (

Spoiler

really just Engineering Physics

) courses as the EE students [excluding Thermo & Chem, because... well Software]).

Corporate Engineering paygrade
Corporate Engineering Title
Member of Order of the Engineer

I didn't put Engineer on my Business card.

This is the thing that needs to be discussed.
Can a CS major take the FE?

The real question is: Why would you? It would be pointless unless your planning on also taking the PE?

 

[robosllim]

I started at this company as a "support engineer." Most days, it definitely didn't feel like an engineering job, but every so often I'd actually have to come up with some new tools to address an issue that lots of customers were having which made the title feel more, but not completely, appropriate.

Now, I'm a "development engineer" and you bet your ass I engineer stuff. It's not just about design, implementation, and testing, but feasibility, cost (both time and money), and marketability are all factors in my work as well.

 

[KHarvey16]

This is the thing that needs to be discussed.
Can a CS major take the FE?

I don't think they can in most states. Most electrical engineers won't need an FE or PE though. Some fields it could be useful but I don't think those employ as many EEs as other areas where it isn't.

 

[OceanBlue]

Yeah no engineer is going to rewrite something that has been written by someone else, that'd be silly. If it's already available it's more likely that solution is proven, more reliable and well tested. However companies hire engineers to write the specific domain logic that isn't readily available publicly. Every company grows organically and with the company a set of unique requirements will grow with it, its the job of the engineers to build a reliable system to manage these specific requirements. Something you can't get out of a standard library.

Right, and that fits with system engineering and industrial engineering. I agree with the people who say that, in the US at least, the term is pretty diluted.

The thing that is weird to me is that you say you can't get to a system with specific domain logic using a standard library. I guess you mean that you need an engineer to use the standard tools in order to model domain knowledge in a way that meet requirements, but to me that's something web developers do too.

 

[Rush_Khan]

"software engineer" and "programmer" are interchangeable terms in today's job market. They mean exactly the same thing.

If you code for a living, you are one. If you're a "front end developer" this would have to include at least Javascript.

The semantics and history of the words are completely irrelevant.

I agree that semantics are irrelevant but in today's job market, I have been led to believe "programmer" refers to entry-level coding jobs hence common job titles like "junior programmer", while "software engineer" is usually for higher-level jobs

 

[hawkshockey11]

I personally like Software Developer. I think it portrays that you do more than write html forms.

I'm a "software engineer" in title and in education but do not feel the term engineer fits. I'm not in a company that designs hardcore algorithms or complex scalable software at the moment but I hopefully will be at some point in life (only 24).

Engineers have to take ethics courses and get accredited but, imo, you don't need either to be able to design and implement complex software solutions. Software Development is not just programming but it is so different than the rest of engineering that it really needs a new word.

Same thing the word science in the word "computer science."

Edit - I guess there is a PE exam for Software http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf. I may have to rethink my opinion...

Yes, it is absolutely engineering. While they're similar, software engineering is a distinctly different field when compared to computer science. Universities have higher requirements to get into software engineering programs than computer science programs. It's just that the "software engineer" name has been watered down by buzzword job titles that try to slap the word "engineer" on everything.

Software engineering is about designing the overall architecture of software, along with how it's produced. It designs software modules, how those modules interact with each other, how to produce them, and how to do everything in a way that's efficient, easy to maintain, and minimizes risk. It is absolutely engineering, even if it's not creating something tangible like a mechanical engineer.

Complicated software has components and modules that interact with each other, much like mechanical parts.

Computer Engineering degrees are basically just CS degrees with EE minors.

 

[Zoe]

The real question is: Why would you? It would be pointless unless your planning on also taking the PE?

There's a software engineer PE exam.

 

[PSYGN]

I agree with you. I think the term engineer is one of prestige, maybe not to the degree of a doctor to most, but still. I feel there are certainly software engineers out there, but the vast majority who title themselves as such could probably live with something more apt like software developer in what they actually do from day to day if they set aside their pride. As competitive as the hiring market can be in the tech sector, employers do their own marketing with the whole "I'll make you sound more important than you are" or "we're so cool and hip we're going to call you a ninja or unicorn". It does muddy up and cheapen the term engineer, as there are companies that are looking for true engineers and suddenly you have a code monkey who's been titled a software engineer in his last job thinking that he can handle it.

I guess when I think of engineering in classical terms, I think of someone building and maintaining something tangible and often complex. These days we can apply that same mentality to software, but let's be honest – unless you are actively planning, or seeing the big picture and trekking into undocumented territory, you're most likely just a software/web/backend/frontend developer, similar to construction workers as far as being task oriented and putting the pieces into their right places. Okay, maybe a little bit more than construction workers in that regard, but certainly no engineer.