Support NeoGAF

[mattwhite924]

Very few jobs are worth giving up that much of your time and sanity to, and video games sure aren't one of them.

I used to think working in video game development would be cool, but the more I learned about it the more it sounded like Hell. I'm more than happy with my non-game dev job. I get paid better, have better job stability, and very very rarely do I have to work anything resembling crunch time.

 

[entremet]

Source? They're definitely crunching but from what I've heard Rockstar is the worst.

It's been industry knowledge for a bit. Stuff like this gets around.

This was from Amy Hennig:

”The whole time I was at Naughty Dog, ten and a half years, I probably on average, I don't know if I ever worked less than 80 hours a week. There were exceptions where it was like, ‘OK let's take a couple of days off', but I pretty much worked seven days a week, at least 12 hours a day."

http://kotaku.com/sounds-like-naughty-dog-s-uncharted-crunch-was-brutal-1787505619

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Jason Schreier's book comes out in September also, doesn't it? It will be interesting to compare and contrast the two next month. I should pick up Russ Pitts's book and just go all in on video game reading.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

If Rockstar proved they don't do crunch I want my account banned for a month.

 

[jschreier]

I read this entire book last week: It's raw and fascinating. This excerpt does not do it justice, and it's hurt by the headline/lack of context. It's clear by the end of the book that crunch is harmful and that the author has a lot of demons he's struggling with.

 

[Lime]

He's recounting his mental defense against people telling him to stop. The article also says he's not advocating it.

The whole twitter thread is worth reading: https://twitter.com/guldeuxchats/status/900408950213955584

 

[Marcel]

https://twitter.com/guldeuxchats/status/900408950213955584

Bingo.

 

[Atolm]

Isn't Polygon known for being socially progressive? Doesn't that include worker's rights...? Or Silicon valley is exempt?

 

[entremet]

Isn't Polygon known for being socially progressive? Doesn't that include worker's rights...? Or Silicon valley is exempt?

It's in the Opinion section.

Strange that people are putting this on Polygon. Polygon is not saying that Crunch is good. Polygon published an excerpt of a book, where the writer is personally Pro-Crunch, for whatever his insane reasons.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

 

[SoundPulse]

Hm? It's fairly clear that the author is expressing deep psychological problems, referring to himself as an addict making questionable sacrifices in the name of a lie, and the column begins with


So what context is missing?

Just making his raison d être more clear, that he was writing this from the viewpoint of someone in the thick of things, and that he doesn't necessarily view it this way now. Re-reading it, that's there, but I think it could certainly have been made more clear, given the discourse I've seen about it on Twitter, and I'll assume the book does.

(Polygon tweeting it out as "MAN IS BRUTALLY HONEST ABOUT CRUNCH" didn't really help how it's been perceived, imo.)

 

[entremet]

Just making his raison d être more clear, that he was writing this from the viewpoint of someone in the thick of things, and that he doesn't necessarily view it this way now. Re-reading it, that's there, but I think it could certainly have been made more clear, given the discourse I've seen about it on Twitter, and I'll assume the book does.

(Polygon tweeting it out as "MAN IS BRUTALLY HONEST ABOUT CRUNCH" didn't really help how it's been perceived, imo.)

I don't get the contention with your last point. He is being honest about crunch, from his POV.

 

[family_guy]

You're fresh out of college looking to advance your career and regularly work overtime to get things done and prove yourself. However years later you think about the time that you missed out on with family and friends, realize you can't hold relationships, you let your work be the only thing you talk about so people stop wanting to spend time with you, and then when you've had enough, you're in your mid 30s/40s wondering how the hell you get out and start over. Crunch is only good for your employer who's probably not even paying you what you're worth.

 

[poodaddy]

Don't buy his book either.

I shan't.

 

[tuxfool]

I don't get the contention with your last point. He is being honest about crunch, from his POV.

My impression from the comments of people who *did* read the book, it was his POV while in the thick of it, less so now.

 

[LordKano]

Nick Robinson wasn't the only person that needed to left Polygon, whoever allowed this shit to be published need to get thrown away.

 

[poodaddy]

Nick Robinson wasn't the only person that needed to left Polygon, whoever allowed this shit to be published need to get thrown away.

That seems excessive. Publishing an opinion piece doesn't mean you agree with it.

 

[Pyramid head]

I've not worked in game development for too long, but I'm finding it difficult to imagine situations where a writer would even be required to contribute towards crunch time. Maybe if they had to replace dialogue they did a shitty job with first time round?

 

[PMS341]

I don't get the contention with your last point. He is being honest about crunch, from his POV.

All the while making some sort of "statement" that crunch is inevitable and should be accepted as normal.

Which is far, far from the case.

 

[Interficium]

Source? They're definitely crunching but from what I've heard Rockstar is the worst.

Here you go bud

 

[LordKano]

That seems excessive. Publishing an opinion piece doesn't mean you agree with it.

I personally believe that encouraging one of the worst possible worker's condition, detrimental to his mental health, physical health, relationships and family, and that is already in top of that widely common in this industry, is a sickening behaviour.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Oh my god, what in hell were Polygon thinking? Are they on a campaign to destroy what little goodwill they have left or something? This is disgusting.

Nick Robinson wasn't the only person that needed to left Polygon, whoever allowed this shit to be published need to get thrown away.

Exactly.

 

[The_Spaniard]

I've never had to work extended periods of crunch, but the worst I've ever had was having to work 17 hours, be back in the office 7 hours after getting off, and not getting paid a dime of overtime.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I've not worked in game development for too long, but I'm finding it difficult to imagine situations where a writer would even be required to contribute towards crunch time. Maybe if they had to replace dialogue they did a shitty job with first time round?

The only crunch situation I can think of is where the devs change the game so much from the original plan that they can no longer use the original script and the writer has to come up with new stuff.

 

[Tain]

Again, this isn't inaction, and this isn't an underrepresented stance. There's plenty reason to criticize Polygon for publishing this, and asking people to wait in hope of opinion pieces that actually do adequately take studios to task for the treatment of their employees is naive or disingenuous.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

I've not worked in game development for too long, but I'm finding it difficult to imagine situations where a writer would even be required to contribute towards crunch time. Maybe if they had to replace dialogue they did a shitty job with first time round?

I suspect a lot of it will be down to pockets of flavour text that haven't been done yet. With dialogue you really can't afford to wing it, as there's an expensive, time-consuming chain of production that needs to happen to get a voiced and animated scene into a game, of which writing the script is only the first step.

 

[The Lamp]

Polish and innovation come at a cost. Not to you, of course. You’ll only pay sixty bucks and not a dollar more, because you lack the ability to measure the value of digital goods either through cost or effort.

Welcome to consumer products in general. Surprise! People have a max price they're willing to pay for a given product. It's your job as a product developer to work around that.

This person is insane. There is nothing to worship about overworked capitalism.

 

[HammerOfThor]

If your crunch is lasting six months you have some super shitty management and need to GTFO.

 

[Marcel]

Welcome to consumer products in general. Surprise! People have a max price they're willing to pay for a given product. It's your job as a product developer to work around that.

This person is insane. There is nothing to worship about overworked capitalism.

This person has deep personal problems that should be worked out on the therapists' couch and not in the public discourse. We have this discourse about crunch in game development almost every year and we come to the same conclusion: it's labor exploitation and the people who support it are assholes. Walt's contribution to the discourse means jack.

 

[Gryph]

The American working ethos is a sickness spread by corporate interests whose only goal is the advancement of personal wealth and power.

That people embrace the idea that we should work to death because it's morally right or represents some sort of national spirit, and even worse, that the consumer is somehow to blame for this and not the corporation, is incredibly depressing...

 

[Ripenen]

If your crunch is lasting six months you have some super shitty management and need to GTFO.

This is why it's so ridiculous that people in this industry boast about crunch. Crunch is not a mandatory part of making games. It's entirely a symptom of poor management in business and operations.

 

[iavi]

This embody yourself in your work spiel only works if the person is working for themselves.

This praise the crunch for a conglomerate bullshits reeks of exactly that: bullshit

 

[Aurongel]

Classic neoliberalism at work.

 

[13ruce]

Very few jobs are worth giving up that much of your time and sanity to, and video games sure aren't one of them.

I used to think working in video game development would be cool, but the more I learned about it the more it sounded like Hell. I'm more than happy with my non-game dev job. I get paid better, have better job stability, and very very rarely do I have to work anything resembling crunch time.

Exactly why i am leaning more to IT than game development tbh.

 

[MikeRahl]

As someone who holds a PMP this is just sad.

If you love 12 hour days so much, just schedule 12 hour days.

Might as well just re-title the article 'Why I worship poor planning'

 

[Gbraga]

This person has deep personal problems that should be worked out on the therapists' couch and not in the public discourse. We have this discourse about crunch in game development almost every year and we come to the same conclusion: it's labor exploitation and the people who support it are assholes. Walt's contribution to the discourse means jack.

After Schreier's post and looking at his twitter, I can't say I agree. His contribution is extremely valuable when taken in context, which is the view of someone who used to "worship crunch", but now sees it as incredibly destructive. Showing his thought proccess and how he ended up realizing how damaging it really is can be more meaningful to people who currently support it than just being called an asshole.

 

[Mr. Virus]

IMO, I only care about the views of Programmers and Artists when it comes to crunch. Granted I don't know what it's like to crunch in a writers role, but I'd imagine its volumes less stressful than people responsible for implementation.

Hey yo, cut this sorta stuff out. Everyone involved in a game's development is important, and all of them may crunch for different reasons at different times (and it always sucks). Comments like this demean the work of other talented people in game development, be them "creative" roles* or otherwise. There are so many parts when it comes to making a game and getting it out there beyond just "code + art".

*Including those outside of artists and programmers, thanks for that btw.

 

[Peltz]

If we try to sell you five-dollar downloadable content, you’ll attack us with negative reviews, claiming we’re trying to nickel and dime you. But if we package our game with a plastic figure and book of concept art, you’ll shell out an easy hundred because it’s “limited.” It’s this same mentality that allows you to say Crunch is plaguing our industry while shouting, “Masterpiece!” at games that laid waste to the hearts and minds of their developers. You’re a bunch of fucking hypocrites, but it’s OK — so are we. We’re happy to Crunch when we believe it will pay off for us individually. There’s a reason studio owners, creative directors, and people who drive Lamborghinis never complain about working too hard. It’s only when the payout is less than the wager that we get pissy.

No lies detected.

 

[Ravidrath]

I should probably read this, but my first reaction is "Fuck this guy," and it's going to be hard to overcome that.

 

[Marcel]

After Schreier's post and looking at his twitter, I can't say I agree. His contribution is extremely valuable when taken in context, which is the view of someone who used to "worship crunch", but now sees it as incredibly destructive. Showing his thought proccess and how he ended up realizing how damaging it really is can be more meaningful to people who currently support it than just being called an asshole.

"Something that was known to be bad is actually bad and makes you mentally unhealthy" is not new or novel information. We already know this and have known it for years. I don't need the now apologetic, simpering white guy to explain it again to me. The window into his mindset just shows why I would never work in game development because I'd likely have to cooperate with a creepy, overcompensating pro-exploitation prick like Walt was.

The window into his mindset shows that things are not likely to change when white men in senior positions fool themselves into thinking that their poisonous behavior is noble. And I have a feeling any teachable moment that can be taken (as few as there are here) will just be missed anyway.

 

[Chozoman]

As a developer that has experienced crunch first hand, Fuck...This...Guy...

It is not a badge of honor, a challenge to overcome, and at it's base level, is antithetical to creating a stable experience. This is some corporate knob-polisher level of understanding, right here.

"I don't need the now apologetic, simpering white guy to explain it...his mindset shows that things are not likely to change when white men in senior positions fool themselves...

Uhh...ok. I agree with all your points, but why the need to repeatedly point out that he's white?

 

[The Albatross]

Crunch is either your's or someone else's bad planning. It's usually indicative of poor management and bad product managers.

 

[brad-t]

Polygon has the most confused editorial mission of any publication I've ever visited. It's really a shame — when it's good, it's so fucking good — but when it's bad it's really the pits.

When I imagine sites like Kotaku or Waypoint or Giant Bomb, I can sort of intuit their perspective and voice. But all I get when I think of Polygon is "incredible inconsistency and contrarian-fuelled clickbait." The way they consciously chose to frame and market this piece definitely falls into the later.

 

[poodaddy]

I personally believe that encouraging one of the worst possible worker's condition, detrimental to his mental health, physical health, relationships and family, and that is already in top of that widely common in this industry, is a sickening behaviour.

And I completely agree, see my previous post in this thread for corroboration, I'm merely supposing that the publisher of the article may not agree with the writer of it.

 

[Gbraga]

"Something that was known to be bad is actually bad and makes you mentally unhealthy" is not new or novel information. We already know this and have known it for years. I don't need the now apologetic, simpering white guy to explain it again to me. The window into his mindset just shows why I would never work in game development because I'd likely have to cooperate with a creepy, overcompensating pro-exploitation prick like Walt was.

The window into his mindset shows that things are not likely to change when white men in senior positions fool themselves into thinking that their poisonous behavior is noble. And I have a feeling any teachable moment that can be taken (as few as there are here) will just be missed anyway.

Again, it's valuable for people who have the same mentality he once had. Who will agree with him as he explains the thought process he held, and as you go further, you see the damage such mantility caused.

I think it's fairly obvious you're not one of the people this could be valuable to, you made that clear by just calling them assholes in the previous post.

You speak as if it was as simple as "this is bad for you" -> "oh ok, I'll stop". Destructive behavior continues to exist because it's not that simple. You can't just act as if the fact that this is not new information will suddenly change everyone's minds, except if they're evil or whatever.

 

[thepotatoman]

Andrew, my coworker at Spry Fox and a genius software engineer, explains it much better than I can

https://twitter.com/tenpn/status/900395569549586432

It's annoying. We've pretty solidly proven that a 40 hour week is peak production for industrial labor 100 years ago, but these desk jobs make production hard to measure. Best I can find is proof that certain demographics show decreases in mental and physical health above 40 hours, and all demographics show it above 60.

 

[Chozoman]

Crunch is either your's or someone else's bad planning. It's usually indicative of poor management and bad product managers.

 

[ASaiyan]

Read it earlier, absolutely awful.
Even if it's a book extract, can't believe Polygon is sharing this stupidity.

I believe it. In the first place, it's a Polygon article.

 

[BitStyle]

As a developer that has experienced crunch first hand, Fuck...This...Guy...

It is not a badge of honor, a challenge to overcome, and at it's base level, is antithetical to creating a stable experience. This is some corporate knob-polisher level of understanding, right here.

As another developer that has experienced crunch, I concur.

 

[sibarraz]

I can justify a 1 or 2 week crunch at worst since in lots of industries you are put in a situation where you have to finish a job in time.

But doing it multiple times and in extended periods of months is just terrible, you destroy the spirit of your employees and make their lifes miserables, I don't know how the videogames industry can get away with it so much