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[FiggyCal]

Tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets of Paris in protest at President Emmanuel Macron's overhaul of France's labour laws.

The demonstration was organised by Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the far left leader who has emerged as the president's principle political opponent.

It comes a day after Mr Macron signed a new law aimed at making it easier for businesses to hire and fire staff.

It is the third such protest to take place in France this month.

On Thursday, some 132,000 people took part in nationwide protests condemning the reforms, while more than 220,000 turned out for demonstrations on 12 September.
Crowds gathered in Paris on Saturday after Mr Mélenchon, leader of the radical leftist La France Insoumise (France Unbowed), urged people to join the march from Place de la Bastille to the Place de la République.

Mr Macron has seen his popularity slide dramatically since he came to power on 7 May.

A poll on 27 August suggested his approval ratings had fallen from 57% in July to 40%.
What are the reforms?

France's labour code - with some chapters dating back more than a century - is over 3,000 pages long and is seen by many as a straitjacket for business.
The new laws hand companies more flexibility in negotiating wages and conditions directly with employees, rather than being bound by industry-wide collective deals negotiated by trade unions.

They also cap damages paid to workers for unfair dismissal. Employers have argued that costly and lengthy court cases often discourage them from hiring staff in the first place.
Until now, the minimum pay-out for two years' employment was six months' salary. That will now be limited to three months' pay for two years of work, and 20 months' pay for 30 years.

The president has signed five executive decrees, describing the reforms as an "unprecedented transformation of our social and economic model".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41372844

 

[Morat]

Good? France seems to have a healthy culture of protest, and while Macron was clearly the only decent choice in the last election I am glad to see that the French have not become complacent.

 

[entremet]

Another wolf in sheep’s clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

 

[psyfi]

<3 keep fighting folks

 

[N7.Angel]

Macron is great, like he said, he wasn't elected to be popular but to reform the country, it'll be ok, Mélenchon is just salty as always.

 

[jackissocool]

man Macron is such a piece of shit

shoulda been Melenchon

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Macron is great, like he said, he wasn't elected to be popular but to reform the country, it'll be ok, Mélenchon is just salty as always.

"Fuck workers", gotcha.

 

[ForkNetwork]

I would like to know what some French people think about Melenchon

 

[ClosingADoor]

Another wolf in sheep's clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

Huh? He ran his campaign promising to do reforms like this. He is doing what he promised the voters that elected him.

"Fuck workers", gotcha.

Not ever labor reform is automatically "fuck workers". Sometimes it is needed to keep your country competitive. And that would be good, since we want a balanced Europe where France plays a large economic role.

 

[Moppeh]

Another wolf in sheep's clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

I don't know about that. He made it pretty clear early on that labour reform would be a major focus, didn't he?

man Macron is such a piece of shit

shoulda been Melenchon

Nah. Should have been Hamon.

 

[SoundofSilence]

man Macron is such a piece of shit

shoulda been Melenchon

Please explain how Macron is a piece of shit. These labor reforms are long overdue.

 

[Battle Litany]

3 months pay sounds like a huge deterrence against retaliatory discrimination from employers. /s

fuck this POS and anyone who supports him.

 

[N7.Angel]

"Fuck workers", gotcha.

ok.

 

[curi0usBystander]

Another wolf in sheep’s clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

Nah, those reforms were part of his campaign.

 

[entremet]

Huh? He ran his campaign promising to do reforms like this. He is doing what he promised the voters that elected him.


Not ever labor reform is automatically "fuck workers". Sometimes it is needed to keep your country competitive. And that would be good, since we want a balanced Europe where France plays a large economic role.

I don't know about that. He made it pretty clear early on that labour reform would be a major focus, didn't he?



Nah. Should have been Hamon.

Nah, those reforms were part of his campaign.

I stand corrected. So was LaPen just that bad?

 

[Angelus Errare]

Macron is great, like he said, he wasn't elected to be popular but to reform the country, it'll be ok, Mélenchon is just salty as always.

You don't want American style workers "rights" trust us.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I stand corrected. So was LaPen just that bad?

She's more openly white-supremacist and pro-Russia than Trump is.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I stand corrected. So was LaPen just that bad?

Well, LePen is LePen, so yes. And the socialists after Hollande were in chaos.

Macron at least ran on a program of changing stuff up, a pro-EU message and getting France back on track. At least, that is what I saw from it here in Europe, I'm not French.

You don't want American style workers "rights" trust us.

I see no indication that France is going to do that.

 

[Battle Litany]

You don't want American style workers "rights" trust us.

Hey, what's not to love about having little-to-no recourse for being fired for refusing to work off-the-clock, or for whistleblowing dangerous and illegal activity, or for rebuffing your bosses sexual advances? Land of the free baby!

 

[sohois]

You don't want American style workers "rights" trust us.

An economy doesn't want French style workers rights either. It chokes the economy and keeps young people out of good jobs

 

[Moppeh]

I stand corrected. So was LaPen just that bad?

Well, first of all, most of the reform doesn't seem that bad. While I am very pro-labour, my understanding is that it was incredibly difficult to fire bad employees, so a lot of changes seem to be creating a better balance between the rights of businesses and employees.

Though I do think there are some aspects that deserve protest and critique, such as the overhaul to severence.

As for Le Pen, yeah, she is fucking terrible. She is a racist and hates immigrants. She's the Trump of France. Macron is by no means perfect, but he is way better than Le Pen.

I'm a communist, pro-business labor "reforms" are all bullshit to me.

Macron is a piece of shit because he's a banker. His main concern is supporting the wealthy ruling class of France. He only won because he wasn't Le Pen, and his enormous unpopularity shows how neoliberal politics don't have a long term plan other than being not-fascism. He is an empty buffoon obsessed with his own ego. He's basically Trump but handsome and not as racist.

lol

 

[jackissocool]

Please explain how Macron is a piece of shit. These labor reforms are long overdue.

I'm a communist, pro-business labor "reforms" are all bullshit to me.

Macron is a piece of shit because he's a banker. His main concern is supporting the wealthy ruling class of France. He only won because he wasn't Le Pen, and his enormous unpopularity shows how neoliberal politics don't have a long term plan other than being not-fascism. He is an empty buffoon obsessed with his own ego. He's basically Trump but handsome and not as racist.

 

[N7.Angel]

You don't want American style workers "rights" trust us.

Don't worry, the American style will never work here anyway but the country need to change, we need those reforms.

 

[VendettaRed07]

An economy doesn't want French style workers rights either. It chokes the economy and keeps young people out of good jobs

That happens here too

 

[PdotMichael]

Good? France seems to have a healthy culture of protest, and while Macron was clearly the only decent choice in the last election I am glad to see that the French have not become complacent.

I wouldn't call it a healthy culture of protest. Their antics even make the old British unions appear reasonable.

 

[Xe4]

I mean, France's economy does need a shake up. That much is obvious. They still have a 9.5% unemployment rate mostly focused on the young, and that is a very bad thing. Macron campaigned on fixing that and he's working towards the promise.

I don't think anyone in France, Macron included want something like America. But there's a big stretch between where France's labor laws were and where America's are.

 

[Mackenzie 92]

Not knowing anything about the current situation in France I couldn't understand why they voted for someone who wanted to gut their labor laws.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That happens here too

France unemployment is double that of the US. And youth unemployment is worse, with 8.9% in the US and 23.4% in France.

 

[Morat]

She's more openly white-supremacist and pro-Russia than Trump is.

Indeed. And she was financed by Russian banks giving her interest free loans. Her genius was realising that the old-fashioned anti-Semitism of her father had become unnaceptable, and islamophobia is the flavour of the day

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

An economy doesn't want French style workers rights either. It chokes the economy and keeps young people out of good jobs

Spain did similar reforms, under the right and this is the result:

https://www.ft.com/content/c12e01d2-dbc4-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09

 

[kirblar]

"Fuck workers", gotcha.

Businesses not being able to fire people for reasonable reasons is a real issue there. There's a balance between freedom of management and protection of workers that actively causes harm to their economy if pushed too far in either direction. As we see w Police Unions here in the states, being unable to get rid of people who you need to be able to axe can have very real negative consequencss. In France, businesses are unwilling to hire relative to other countries because a bad hire is such a risk to them, contributing to the massive unemployment we see there. France isn't the US, it has a wildly different set of structural problems to deal with, and viewing it through our lens (where workers are clearly NOT overprotected on the whole) leads to some really bad conclusions.

 

[N7.Angel]

An economy doesn't want French style workers rights either. It chokes the economy and keeps young people out of good jobs

We're really good at what we're doing, but we're too expensive, like crazy expensive and also overprotected, many people are just waiting to get hired and when it's done, they're just screwing everybody with sick leave and abuse.

 

[Beartruck]

Not knowing anything about the current situation in France I couldn't understand why they voted for someone who wanted to gut their labor laws.

Their alternative was literally the daughter of a Nazi.

 

[siddx]

I usually fall on the side of workers in issues like this but the part about the difficulty of letting workers go is something I've seen first hand in other countries where laws are so overwhelmingly protectionist of workers that companies end up retaining corrupt and incompetent workers because the cost of getting rid of them and hiring someone who can actually do the job is so high.

 

[Moppeh]

Spain did similar reforms, under the right and this is the result:

https://www.ft.com/content/c12e01d2-dbc4-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09

I was interested in reading it but I don't have a subscription. Are there any other good articles on the subject?

 

[matthewuk]

I'm not sure if I support macrons changes or not. It depends on what the ultimate goal is. It seams to me that the US has virtually zero workers rights but France has way to many and generous ones at that.

 

[Mortemis]

Spain did similar reforms, under the right and this is the result:

https://www.ft.com/content/c12e01d2-dbc4-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09

Can you lend me $10 so I can read this.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Another wolf in sheep’s clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

He was always pro-business. He just looks handsome, so I guess people like you fall for it.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I see no indication that France is going to do that.

Neither did America when they started that slow erosion

 

[kirblar]

I usually fall on the side of workers in issues like this but the part about the difficulty of letting workers go is something I've seen first hand in other countries where laws are so overwhelmingly protectionist of workers that companies end up retaining corrupt and incompetent workers because the cost of getting rid of them and hiring someone who can actually do the job is so high.

No need to look at other countries- just look at how Police Unions end up forcing departments to keep/rehire bad cops they've tried to axe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/

Since 2006, the nation’s largest police departments have fired at least 1,881 officers for misconduct that betrayed the public’s trust, from cheating on overtime to unjustified shootings. But The Washington Post has found that departments have been forced to reinstate more than 450 officers after appeals required by union contracts.

Most of the officers regained their jobs when police chiefs were overruled by arbitrators, typically lawyers hired to review the process. In many cases, the underlying misconduct was undisputed, but arbitrators often concluded that the firings were unjustified because departments had been too harsh, missed deadlines, lacked sufficient evidence or failed to interview witnesses.

A San Antonio police officer caught on a dash cam challenging a handcuffed man to fight him for the chance to be released was reinstated in February. In the District, an officer convicted of sexually abusing a young woman in his patrol car was ordered returned to the force in 2015. And in Boston, an officer was returned to work in 2012 despite being accused of lying, drunkenness and driving a suspected gunman from the scene of a nightclub killing.

The chiefs say the appeals process leaves little margin for error. Yet police agencies sometimes sabotage their own attempts to shed troubled officers by making procedural mistakes. The result is that police chiefs have booted hundreds of officers they have deemed unfit to be in their ranks, only to be compelled to take them back and return them to the streets with guns and badges.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I was interested in reading it but I don't have a subscription. Are there any other good articles on the subject?

Can you lend me $10 so I can read this.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/spains-lost-generation/

More than 40 per cent of Spaniards aged between 16 and 25 are without jobs, while others struggle on temporary contracts with low salaries &#8212; or move abroad to find better work.

Recent data from Spain's Ministry of Labour revealed that the number of workers who sign more than ten employment contracts every year increased from 150,000 in 2012 to 270,000 in 2016 &#8212; a statistic which also shows where lots of the ruling conservative Popular Party's much-vaunted 500,000 new jobs a year are coming from.

These contracts, which became increasingly common after prime minister Rajoy's labour market reforms in 2012, don't include paid leave or sick pay and offer little protection for workers, who can be fired without explanation or notice. The resulting lack of financial stability has meant that vast numbers of young Spaniards are unable &#8212; or unwilling &#8212; to move out of their parents' homes until their late twenties or early thirties. The average age at which Spaniards leave the family home is now 29.

The strongly worded document concludes by observing that there is a growing chasm between the &#8216;actual economic situation of Spain' and the situation as described by GDP growth statistics

Basically, making it easier to hire and fire, made young people slave of poor badly paid jobs with bad conditions.

 

[El Topo]

I assume, not being knowledgeable in the field, that one might look at Germany under/after Schröder to get an idea on what to expect.

 

[FiggyCal]

He was always pro-business. He just looks handsome, so I guess people like you fall for it.

I think in the US, there was some misunderstanding of where he was politically. I think John Oliver (who does American media), for example, thought he was center left. And at TYT, they thought he was a progressive at one point.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

From my understand France's two-tier labour system is genuinely pretty bad for the economy overall, so if Macron can change that he has my support. But I don't know enough about the specifics so I can't judge these specific changes.

 

[Moppeh]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/spains-lost-generation/

I should have been more specific and say I don't have any subscriptions, lol.

But thanks for the quotes.

While I don't know how these reforms directly compare to Spain's, I think we can all agree that the rise in contract work, not only in Spain but the rest of the Western world, is a problem. The Toronto Star had a great investigative piece on contract work in Toronto, and the details are incredibly fucked up.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Not knowing anything about the current situation in France I couldn't understand why they voted for someone who wanted to gut their labor laws.

As I understand it from news coverage over the years:

Reforming labor laws has been a massive issue in France for years, if not decades. The suburban riots in Paris years ago (and possibly even the terror attack far more recently) were driven by massive exclusion from the labor market as tight rules means excluding pretty much every young person, and even more if non-white and / or non-Christian or secular (solidified institutional racism is a thing, regardless of which country). These reforms are also more in line with similar laws already in place in other EU countries that France has therefore not been able to effectively compete with.

Also, France may have a separate social security arrangement that is not being mentioned in this context, but I am not sure if there are.

While I don't know how these reforms directly compare to Spain's, I think we can all agree that the rise in contract work, not only in Spain but the rest of the Western world, is a problem. The Toronto Star had a great investigative piece on contract work in Toronto, and the details are incredibly fucked up.

That we can, but it's really more a matter of adapting social security arrangements to the market changes than stifling its ability to function. That's the price you pay for using capitalism as an economic strategy, regardless of governing ideologies.

 

[PJV3]

It's a shame people on the left had to give him their votes, blocking the far right has come first though.

 

[JaggedSac]

Spain did similar reforms, under the right and this is the result:

https://www.ft.com/content/c12e01d2-dbc4-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09

So Macron's executive actions are going to cause a rise in contract labor in France? Based on the OP, it doesn't seem like that is the case.

 

[siddx]

No need to look at other countries- just look at how Police Unions end up forcing departments to keep/rehire bad cops they've tried to axe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/police-fired-rehired/

The idea of those 450 officers who got reinstated and must now feel invincible and untouchable is terrifying to me.

 

[Boy Wander]

I'm a communist, pro-business labor "reforms" are all bullshit to me.

Macron is a piece of shit because he's a banker. His main concern is supporting the wealthy ruling class of France. He only won because he wasn't Le Pen, and his enormous unpopularity shows how neoliberal politics don't have a long term plan other than being not-fascism. He is an empty buffoon obsessed with his own ego. He's basically Trump but handsome and not as racist.

That's worked out well everywhere they've tried it...