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[Rodelero]

What?

Also - I care way less about the name than I do about the price.

I think it was pretty clear that I was mocking your notion that it would be fine if it was called GT Online Championship but it's totally outrageous that it's called Gran Turismo Sport.

Other GTs also had online - this one being more fleshed out does not justify the full price.

I think this is kinda the sticking point. It's your fundamental misunderstanding that leads to your position. Yes, many previous and contemporary racing games have competitive multiplayer offerings, but they all fail on a very fundamental level which makes them practically worthless compared to what you get in Gran Turismo Sport. Anyone who has spent significant time with an online racing game, be it Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, F1, GRID, Dirt, et cetera, will know that anything approaching clean racing is practically impossible to find unless you organise things outside of the game. First corners turn into destruction derbies and greedy players will never not take an overtaking opportunity regardless of the risk to your race and theirs.

If I had to 'review' the online portions of the games that came before I would be giving them 2s and 3s. Some of them have fantastic features but none of them can enforce even a modicum of sportsmanship which makes them incredibly frustrating to play on anything other than a totally casual level. Mario Kart is a fantastic racing game to play online but it's one of the only online racing games where you get the right kind of experience in public matchmaking - because it's a game where anything goes. Wipeout works pretty well too for the same reason. For more realistic games, online racing essentially doesn't work unless you go to the effort of finding regular people to play with privately.

Whether you consider it to be valuable or not, Gran Turismo Sport's multiplayer isn't just a little more fleshed out than other console racers', it does things in a way which turns online racing from something I never want to do into something I always want to do.

 

[SgtCobra]

You say it's not comparable to a Prologue title, are you saying it is therefore comparable to a mainline GT title? It's clearly somewhere in the middle. Let's not pretend this is anything other than a stopgap.

Oh no from what I've seen and heard it's definitely not like the mainline games when it comes to content. But comparing it to a Prologue title (which was a glorified demo) wouldn't be right either.

 

[JawzPause]

General consensus from reviewers seems to be a lack of content but excellent visuals/gameplay. Perhaps I'll pick this up in a years time when more content is released

 

[STEaMkb]

nm

 

[GlamFM]

But he could have discovered the answer simply by playing more and observing. Ghost cars should not be ignored. They are not a "green light" to wilfully discount your surroundings. You should continue to treat them as obstructions and express caution when ghosted, because common sense says they will need to reintegrate with solid traffic. Yet he would sooner moan about it rather than observing and make sense of it.

Yep - I got that immediately. No clue why Jeff did not get it.

I think it´s a pretty elegant solution.

 

[deoee]

But he could have discovered the answer simply by playing more and observing. Ghost cars should not be ignored. They are not a "green light" to wilfully discount your surroundings. You should continue to treat them as obstructions and express caution when ghosted, because common sense says they will need to reintegrate with solid traffic. Yet he would sooner moan about it rather than observing and make sense of it.

Or the game could simply make them blink for 1 or 2 seconds before they re-appear

 

[Theorry]

Was expecting it to score way better. Not maybe in the 9.0 but atleast high 8.0.
So seeing it at 7.7 is a surprise. To be fair some reviews are missing a score still. So it could go up.

 

[Curious Puppy]

The Giant Bomb quick look is trash, just watched it.
These people clearly have no idea about what makes a racing game good.
They should stick to what they know or use someone who does play racers.

lmao

 

[bennibop]

Or the game could simply make them blink for 1 or 2 seconds before they re-appear

They do blink for 1-2 seconds before they reappear.

 

[deoee]

They do blink for 1-2 seconds before they reappear.

Ah okay, I didn't notice in the GB Video.

Then I have no idea why he has such a huge problem with the ghosts...

 

[magawolaz]

Or the game could simply make them blink for 1 or 2 seconds before they re-appear

But it does that afaik, even lets you ghost through them when they are blinking. But after that they'll go back to being solid the first chance they get, otherwise people would exploit them every chance they get. Been like that since GT5.

That said, after DR C ghosting is only used for cars going the wrong way or placed sideways on the track. (at least, in the beta it was like that)
In lobbies you can remove ghosting entirely.

EDIT: too late.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Was expecting it to score way better. Not maybe in the 9.0 but atleast high 8.0.
So seeing it at 7.7 is a surprise. To be fair some reviews are missing a score still. So it could go up.

Still time yet, tons of reviews not on MC / OC at the moment.

It's going to be very up and down though, some reviewers get it and like the changes, while some will just mark it down for the stuff it isn't doing (not being GT7) I expect it to be high 70's / low 80's when it's all over.

 

[amar212]

Or the game could simply make them blink for 1 or 2 seconds before they re-appear

You should not treat ghost cars on track as an immidiate overtake opportunity.

They will get their penalty once they return on track and be forced to slow down.

If they were solid all the time, you would not overtake them. Sustain from such even when they are ghosting.

Ghosting is there only because of the thereshold for extreme close vicinity players.

And it is an very elegant solution as long as you treat them as solid cars all the time.

However, I can understand where the missunderstanding is coming from, but I cant understand that people cant comprehend beyond first few hours of some gameplay.

 

[Lupercal]

lmao

Your post is about as useful as the QL itself.

Good job !

 

[farisr]

But he could have discovered the answer simply by playing more and observing. Ghost cars should not be ignored. They are not a "green light" to wilfully discount your surroundings. You should continue to treat them as obstructions and express caution when ghosted, because common sense says they will need to reintegrate with solid traffic. Yet he would sooner moan about it rather than observing and make sense of it.

Yep - I got that immediately. No clue why Jeff did not get it.

I think it´s a pretty elegant solution.

so how are you supposed to handle it in this scenario

how are you supposed to be able to tell there's a ghost car that's basically riding on you or slightly off to the side (and see the flashes) in a bumper cam situation?

 

[Curious Puppy]

Your post is about as useful as the QL itself.

Good job !

Suggesting Jeff Gerstmann doesn't "know what makes racing games good" is blind ignorance deserving of that reply.

He doesn't like your game. Get over it.

 

[GHG]

so how are you supposed to handle it in this scenario

There's a proximity map available in the hud.

Suggesting Jeff Gerstmann doesn't "know what makes racing games good" is blind ignorance deserving of that reply.

He doesn't like your game. Get over it.

To be fair what was the last racing game he DID like? The guy is jaded as fuck. I know it's his thing but it gets tiresome unless you like to be negative about everything.

 

[farisr]

There's a proximity map available in the hud.

that's interesting, you replied to my last post about this as well and didn't mention this part at all. So maybe it's not as straightforward or as obvious as some are making it out to be here in an attempt to discredit Jeff's views.

 

[Rodelero]

so how are you supposed to handle it in this scenario

There are two things on the HUD that help with this case. The first is the radar, which can be accessed via the MFD. The second is that, when a car is near your left or right, a red indicator displays indicating proximity on the main HUD element. They look like small red concentric semi circles. These are always visible unless you turn the HUD off. In essence, if you see red there, don't turn that way

Ultimately though, ghosting or not, racing near other people quickly but safely is difficult. This game gives quite a few useful tools to help that but it's still a skill one has to learn. It's not that it's trivial, it's that Jeff is being unreasonable in expecting it to always be fine without any effort on his part.

 

[Curious Puppy]

To be fair what was the last racing game he DID like? The guy is jaded as fuck. I know it's his thing but it gets tiresome unless you like to be negative about everything.

Forza Horizon 3, just one year ago.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Suggesting Jeff Gerstmann doesn't "know what makes racing games good" is blind ignorance deserving of that reply.

He doesn't like your game. Get over it.

Uhm, Jeff is pretty damn vocal about the kind of racers he enjoys. There was close to 0 chance he would be excited about an online-focused racing sim where actual driving rules apply.

That doesn't mean he's not giving these games a fair shake, but I think the people who've listened to the guy for over ten years now kinda get what stuff he does and does not enjoy. His opinion of the game should be taken within that contest.

He's more a Forza Horizon / Burnout Paradise kind of racing fan. And that's alright.

 

[GHG]

that's interesting, you replied to my last post about this as well and didn't mention this part at all. So maybe it's not as straightforward or as obvious as some are making it out to be here in an attempt to discredit Jeff's views.

I replied to the "how would you know when they are about to go solid". Even if you are using bonnet cam without using the proximity map all you have to do is use your right stick to look around from time to time. You should have some sort of awareness of what cars are around you and react accordingly.

It's not about discrediting his views, he's free to have that opinion if he wishes, however it doesn't mean everyone has to agree with him.

Forza Horizon 3, just one year ago.

So he likes Horizon but not Forza Motorsport or GT (has he done project cars?). Doesn't that tell you something?

 

[Rodelero]

Forza Horizon 3, just one year ago.

Arguably, Forza Horizon 3 isn't really a racing game and it's certainly not a good one. It's a really fun driving game, and if you listen to Jeff it's clear that's what he wants. He seems to have very limited interest in competing with other cars be it offline or online.

 

[Moze]

Forza Horizon 3, just one year ago.

He very clearly is not into racing games enough to care about GT Sport. He doesn't like GT Sport because it is just too hardcore. Some people will like it for that reason.

I am the same as Jeff and on the side who likes to crash into other racers going around corners and stuff like that. I still respect that there are people who like what GT Sport is going for. It's just not for me. Jeff is right in saying they are trying to appeal to a very niche audience with this.

 

[Curious Puppy]

Arguably, Forza Horizon 3 isn't really a racing game

lol are you serious?

It's always amazing the kind of weird shit people say when they can't just accept Giant Bomb doesn't like a game they like.

 

[oti]

The main takeaway from Jeff's impressions is that GTS alienates casually interested players even more now. Not just with the simulation aspect but also with all the restrictions and penalties. I find it super interesting that those systems are in place but Jeff's reaction to them is not surprising. There are many people just like him. And that's totally fine.

 

[Hoo-doo]

lol are you serious?

It's always amazing the kind of weird shit people say when they can't just accept Giant Bomb doesn't like a game they like.

But can you at least agree that GTS is simply not aimed at racing game fans like Jeff?

 

[Rodelero]

He very clearly is not into racing games enough to care about GT Sport. He doesn't like GT Sport because it is just too hardcore. Some people will like it for that reason.

I am the same as Jeff and on the side who likes to crash into other racers going around corners and stuff like that. I still respect that there are people who like what GT Sport is going for. It's just not for me. Jeff is right in saying they are trying to appeal to a very niche audience with this.

Is it actually very niche, or are you just projecting your likes/dislikes onto the general public? The idea that Gran Turismo (or Forza for that matter) have ever been games designed for people that like to "crash into other racers going around corners and stuff like that" is absurd.

 

[derFeef]

So he likes Horizon but not Forza Motorsport or GT (has he done project cars?). Doesn't that tell you something?

He's also enjoying every Horizon release less and less. That's just Jeff.

 

[GlamFM]

So he likes Horizon but not Forza Motorsport or GT (has he done project cars?). Doesn't that tell you something?

Forza Motosport 3 is actually his favorite.

https://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/forza-motorsport-3-review/1900-215/

Whether you're on the track racing or off the track tuning and designing cars, Forza Motorsport 3 is incredible.

Seems like we need a new angle to disprove Jeff entirely. Suggestions? Anybody?

 

[Curious Puppy]

But can you at least agree that GTS is simply not aimed at racing game fans like Jeff?

Sure, but excusing dumb and player unfriendly game mechanics with "it's just not for you" is always a saying I've thought was really stupid. Jeff liked Forza Motorsport 6 and a lot of other sim-ish racers but rightly destroyed Forza 7 for it's progression, and is being similarly harsh on GT:S for making you waste your own time to play the video game.

It's not "aimed" at him, but his criticisms are valid regardless of what his taste might be.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Moze]

Is it actually very niche, or are you just projecting your likes/dislikes onto the general public? The idea that Gran Turismo (or Forza for that matter) have ever been games designed for people that like to "crash into other racers going around corners and stuff like that" is absurd.

Yes, I think it is pretty niche. The majority if people who buy GT and Forza want to race sloppy. Have you ever played any of these games online before? Isn't that sort of driving actually encouraged in Forza?

 

[farisr]

Ultimately though, ghosting or not, racing near other people quickly but safely is difficult. This game gives quite a few useful tools to help that but it's still a skill one has to learn. It's not that it's trivial, it's that Jeff is being unreasonable in expecting it to always be fine without any effort on his part.

Is he being unreasonable or is he actually mirroring what a lot of casual racing fans might think of about the game if they actually try it out. I honestly think it's closer to the latter. As you said driving completely clean at a good pace is difficult to learn, Jeff may be a good example of someone who's casually into racers that have mostly been offline attempting to play the GT Sport online modes and the frustration they may experience and the impression of the game they could come away with.

 

[Rodelero]

lol are you serious?

It's always amazing the kind of weird shit people say when they can't just accept Giant Bomb doesn't like a game they like.

I didn't expect Giant Bomb to like Gran Turismo Sport and I don't care that they don't. My point is pretty clear - Jeff isn't a fan of sim racing, never has been, and never will be. He has always found his fun in the elements of the games that are least about motorsport.

As someone who very much likes the Forza Horizon series, it is first and foremost a game about driving and collecting cars, and experiencing the massive beautiful open world with a vast range of activities only some of which are racing. The racing features are also pretty weak - they are neither the core attraction nor well implemented. I don't say that it's not really a racing game as a slur, it's just a simple way of delineating those games which focus on racing and sport verse those that focus on cars and driving.

 

[GHG]

Forza Motosport 3 is actually his favorite.

https://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/forza-motorsport-3-review/1900-215/


Seems like we need a new angle to disprove Jeff entirely. Suggestions? Anybody?

Sorry, how long ago was Forza 3? He also used to like GT games of old.

Tastes change over time. If I was to review football manager today for example I'd tell you it's shit, simply because I don't have the patience for that sort of game anymore. It used to be my favourite game.

Again, it's not about disproving him, it's about understanding where he's coming from. If my tastes aligned with his then I'd take his opinion seriously but they don't so it is what it is. If your tastes align with his and he's your go to guy for racing games then more power to you.

 

[the_darkness]

I didn't expect Giant Bomb to like Gran Turismo Sport and I don't care that they don't. My point is pretty clear - Jeff isn't a fan of sim racing, never has been, and never will be.

This is absolute crap.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Quick looks are awful ways to judge a game. I remember the motorstorm apocalypse quick looks where they could not figure out how to change the view.

 

[Curious Puppy]

Jeff isn't a fan of sim racing, never has been, and never will be.

He liked every Forza Motorsport game until 7 and the older GT games.

You're lying. GT: Sport is certainly for an audience that he isn't a part of, but his criticisms are still valid.

 

[Papilloma]

I didn't expect Giant Bomb to like Gran Turismo Sport and I don't care that they don't. My point is pretty clear - Jeff isn't a fan of sim racing, never has been, and never will be. He has always found his fun in the elements of the games that are least about motorsport.

As someone who very much likes the Forza Horizon series, it is first and foremost a game about driving and collecting cars, and experiencing the massive beautiful open world with a vast range of activities only some of which are racing. The racing features are also pretty weak - they are neither the core attraction nor well implemented. I don't say that it's not really a racing game as a slur, it's just a simple way of delineating those games which focus on racing and sport verse those that focus on cars and driving.

This seems a very circular conversation. Jeff doesn't like the game as much as you do, because you are both looking for different things from it. Neither of you are wrong. If you feel the game is excellent and you really enjoy it, then why does it matter what Jeff thinks?

 

[Septic360]

This thread man is just amazing. The excuses, the meltdown, the deep philosophical internal debates people are obviously having- amazing

 

[GoldenCrow]

Don't know why people are getting butt hurt about Giant Bombs quick looks or even using them as an insightful preview. They are essentially getting paid to give hot takes on something they have spent next to no time with. Informative and well researched they are not but they are entertaining if you enjoy their humour. Quick looks go one of two ways, I like it now lets make some jokes or I don't like it now lets joke about.

 

[Rodelero]

Yes, I think it is pretty niche. The majority if people who buy GT and Forza want to race sloppy. Have you ever played any of these games online before? Isn't that sort of driving actually encouraged in Forza?

No, it's certainly not encouraged in Forza, even in Forza Horizon. It's just not discouraged in any kind of effective way. I also don't think people enjoy driving sloppy as much as you think, but time will tell. I think the state of online in, say, Forza, is much more a case of a misbehaving minority wrecking things for everyone else, leading to a situation where the clean drivers stop trying and the playerbase becomes worse and worse.

Is he being unreasonable or is he actually mirroring what a lot of casual racing fans might think of about the game if they actually try it out. I honestly think it's closer to the latter. As you said driving completely clean at a good pace is difficult to learn, Jeff may be a good example of someone who's casually into racers that have mostly been offline attempting to play the GT Sport online modes and the frustration they may experience and the impression of the game they could come away with.

I don't think Jeff represents the average Gran Turismo player, no. He doesn't even like Gran Turismo, he has always massively preferred Forza.

 

[Bumhead]

"Jeff doesn't like sim racers" is silly and reductionary.

The biggest take away from that quick look for me was their point about this game being a niche of a niche. I think they are right on that.

I do like sim racers. I've played every Forza and Gran Turismo game and GT3 is one of my favourite games of all time. There are aspects of GTS that I think are total nonsense and I was stunned watching that Quick Look at some of the core design decisions in this game.

"Not liking sim racers" and having major issues with GT Sport sound like separate criticisms to me. I genuinely don't think they're the same thing.

 

[FeD.nL]

He very clearly is not into racing games enough to care about GT Sport. He doesn't like GT Sport because it is just too hardcore. Some people will like it for that reason.

I am the same as Jeff and on the side who likes to crash into other racers going around corners and stuff like that. I still respect that there are people who like what GT Sport is going for. It's just not for me. Jeff is right in saying they are trying to appeal to a very niche audience with this.

What you and Jeff are describing are people who like Arcade Racers. GT: Sport’s implementation of online racing actually promotes casuals to try it out. From the pretty great implementation of Ghosting in the lower divisions to prevent big crashes, to promoting clean driving and making it feel like an accoplishment to drive a clean sector by showing it to the driver everytime it happens.

Like Rainbow Six: Siege isn’t going to magically turn into CoD, that doesn’t mean it only appeals to a very niche audience. Like Siege does for tactical shooters, Sport does a really good job introducing new players to online competetive racing.

 

[Shaneus]

Ghosted cars flash 3 times before coming back into existence. If in doubt simply avoid them entirely.

Stupid question, is this why my headlights sometimes flash on their own in barriers and stuff, even in single player?

 

[Rodelero]

He liked every Forza Motorsport game until 7 and the older GT games.

You're lying. GT: Sport is certainly for an audience that he isn't a part of, but his criticisms are still valid.

I'm ... lying?! What am I lying about?

This seems a very circular conversation. Jeff doesn't like the game as much as you do, because you are both looking for different things from it. Neither of you are wrong. If you feel the game is excellent and you really enjoy it, then why does it matter what Jeff thinks?

I mean... I don't care what Jeff thinks (about this game). I'm trying to explain why people should take his opinion with a little less weight, frankly, since so many people in this thread (very few of whom have actually played Gran Turismo Sport) have decided the Quick Look is such a definitive breakdown of the game. I'm well aware that we're looking for different things from the game, but with all respect to Jeff, he's looking for a racing sim to not be a racing sim.

"Jeff doesn't like sim racers" is silly and reductionary.

The biggest take away from that quick look for me was their point about this game being a niche of a niche. I think they are right on that.

I do like sim racers. I've played every Forza and Gran Turismo game and GT3 is one of my favourite games of all time. There are aspects of GTS that I think are total nonsense and I was stunned watching that Quick Look at some of the core design decisions in this game.

"Not liking sim racers" and having major issues with GT Sport sound like separate criticisms to me. I genuinely don't think they're the same thing.

Yet it's kind of true, isn't it? Having listened to the man speak about sim racing games over the years, and watch him play them, it's pretty clear that he's not playing Forza, or Gran Turismo, to take part in a realistic racing game. He's playing them because he wants to (paraphrasing) take a shitty car, make it into a monster, and drive it real fast. I think he admitted pretty candidly during his Forza 7 Quick Look that he looks for something pretty specific from these games, I'm not sure why that's suddenly up for debate. I frankly can't believe that Giant Bomb, of all groups, are being held up as the place to go for impressions about a racing game. Their impressions are perfectly valid and interesting, but also from a very specific perspective that, I think, is giving people a fairly incomplete impression.

 

[Curious Puppy]

I'm ... lying?! What am I lying about?

You're lying about Jeff never having been a fan of sim racing. He has been, and still is, he just happens to not like the sim racers you like.

 

[GHG]

You're lying about Jeff never having been a fan of sim racing. He has been, and still is, he just happens to not like the sim racers you like.

He's a sim racing fan that hasn't liked a sim racing game since Forza Motorsport 3?

 

[Maintenance]