ChorizoPicozo
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[Digital Foundry] Final Fantasy 16 - PlayStation 5 - Tech Review
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Going to be interesting to see what sort of rig it'll take to run this at 60+fps/1440p considering how hard its pushing the PS5.
If you're just judging the game based on compressed YT video I doubt you have much sense of how much presence there is to the game. Its got that weird MGS4 thing where its not photo-realistic but visually its just really strong.
If you're just judging the game based on compressed YT video I doubt you have much sense of how much presence there is to the game. Its got that weird MGS4 thing where its not photo-realistic but visually its just really strong.
GHG
Member
There have literally been a handful of reports about this so far.
If it were a real issue across all consoles then DF would have picked up on it in testing.
Unknown Soldier
Member
LOL so this is why Performance Mode looked really soft and blurry. As low as 720p LMAO.
I am on patch version 1.02, that appears to be the Day 1 patch.
The issue with FFXVI is that it uses RT throughout with no fallback to rasterization. I respect the team for going all-out on supporting RT like this, but the shit-tier RDNA2 GPU in these consoles simply cannot cope with RT, and without DLSS to do decent quality reconstruction when you're down as low as 720p it's going to look like flaming horseshit. To put it simply, using AMD is dramatically holding these consoles back. If they used Nvidia hardware of the same gen, and by that I mean the Ampere (RTX 30 series) gen, they would have more than double the speed RT at the same core/shader count and also DLSS which is so vastly superior to FSR it's kind of hilarious.
I am on patch version 1.02, that appears to be the Day 1 patch.
The issue with FFXVI is that it uses RT throughout with no fallback to rasterization. I respect the team for going all-out on supporting RT like this, but the shit-tier RDNA2 GPU in these consoles simply cannot cope with RT, and without DLSS to do decent quality reconstruction when you're down as low as 720p it's going to look like flaming horseshit. To put it simply, using AMD is dramatically holding these consoles back. If they used Nvidia hardware of the same gen, and by that I mean the Ampere (RTX 30 series) gen, they would have more than double the speed RT at the same core/shader count and also DLSS which is so vastly superior to FSR it's kind of hilarious.
GHG
Member
Yeh I'm only a couple of hours in and I've seen several things that DLSS would be able to improve/clean up and I'm playing on resolution mode so that's as good as it gets in terms of IQ on the PS5.
It's a crying shame that Nvidia aren't involved with playstation anymore.
Mr Moose
Member
Wot.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yes, FSR1 is spatial, only uses the same frame for TAA + Sharpening, FSR2 is temporal, uses multiple frames for a much better resolve. It would fix a lot of the fuzziness issues this game is seeing.
But it's also not free, it requires a decent amount of headroom going by PC examples. They likely didn't have it to spare considering its already dropping so many frames in a 720p~1080p DRS window.
Mr Moose
Member
Yeah, I am going on the assumption it is using RT shadows, if not, wtf are they doing? lol.
If it does I would like to see it with and without.
RT is shit on AMD.
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Unknown Soldier
Member
If the console used Nvidia it wouldn't be a problem.
I'll laugh if the Switch 2 manages to actually be more powerful in real world performance because Nintendo uses Nvidia ARM + superior GPU tech compared to the shitty AMD hardware in PS5 and XSeX.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I do. Whether RT shadows or not, the high quality shadows are the reason this game looks as good as it does in it's best moments. It shits on most other AAA titles this gen, and that includes most of Sony first party.
Unknown Soldier
Member
They really should implement a Hybrid Mode, where it uses Quality mode for Exploration and switches to Performance Mode only in combat.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
That would be extremely jarring for 1/ switching between 30 and 60 FPS every minute and 2/ the massive disparity in IQ/resolution whenever you get in a fight.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Keep in mind the six month is just a boiler plate total exclusivity window, it doesn't necessarily mean the PC version will even be ready or announced at the end of the year.
muno
Neo Member
Having to choose between 30FPS and 720p in 2023 is wild. Very disappointed with the performance of this game.
It would have been more palatable if this were a Switch game, but it isn’t. Tears of the Kingdom runs at 30fps in 900p and I’m okay with that because it’s 15W handheld plugged into a TV.
The PS5 is a massive 200 watt monster. There should be no excuse.
It would have been more palatable if this were a Switch game, but it isn’t. Tears of the Kingdom runs at 30fps in 900p and I’m okay with that because it’s 15W handheld plugged into a TV.
The PS5 is a massive 200 watt monster. There should be no excuse.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Just seeing this news now, am I hearing this right? The so called superior 60fps mode runs at... 720p?
Like... actual... 720p? And people will play that mode by choice? In 2023?
Stop being ignorant/hard-headed and play it at 30fps like it was clearly designed to be played.
60fps is an afterthought to most devs, clearly. Let them spend their time on something else instead of wasting months (years?) trying to get a game to run at a framerate it clearly cannot handle.
Imagine what else they could have done had they not fucking bothered with an utterly useless performance mode in this game. What a colossal waste of time.
The days of performance modes will be over with starting by the end of this year. Bet on it.
I love being right. Mods, remove my tag.
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Mr Moose
Member
Genshin looks as good as Zelda.
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Lethal01
Member
In terms of resolution and framerate? I think Genshin is far higher fidelity.
What's your point though.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
If you want 60fps moving forward then enjoy playing at 720p or below.
The entire point of 30fps is it allows there to be less compromises. Its the sweet spot for consoles. And also the default.
60fps has always required a compromise on consoles. I have been screaming it at the top of my lungs for years on here.
This is the compromise. Just one of them in fact. A resolution straight out of 2007.
You want to force devs to make next gen games 60fps? Ok. Enjoy 720p games going forward. Soon it will be 520p. As games start to push hardware near the end of the gen.
In other words, its a waste of time.
This performance mode was a complete waste of everyones time. Especially the developers time. They should have spent all that time forcing it to run at 60 doing other things in the game to make it even better.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
40 FPS the best of both worlds according to DF.
It very does, but not at all times though.
Lighting and shading are stellar and way above what we got last gen imho.
Ivan
Member
It's not 720p for fuck's sake. It's a base rendering resolution for reconstruction.
Why don't you call dlss "720p" or "540p"? It's more advanced and looks better, but it's the same principle.
I blame digital foundry for naming those modes 1440p etc. back from the ps4 pro days. It was a new concept, we could argue about it's quality, but it's not 720p just stupidly stretched over your screen.
Why don't you call dlss "720p" or "540p"? It's more advanced and looks better, but it's the same principle.
I blame digital foundry for naming those modes 1440p etc. back from the ps4 pro days. It was a new concept, we could argue about it's quality, but it's not 720p just stupidly stretched over your screen.
Mr Moose
Member
If this was a Switch game, it wouldn't even be 720p or 30fps.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
muno
Neo Member
Depends on the phone. The Switch's GPU is somewhere between the iPhone X and iPhone 11 Pro. And I'm sure TotK is using the CUDA cores in that Maxwell GPU for some of the physics sim. I don't know what his point was there, but my point was that TotK has a valid reason for capping at 30. FF16 hasn't made an argument as to why it needs to be capped at 30FPS for a consistent experience when we are talking about a console with much, much newer hardware that consumes nearly 20X the power.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I love their optimization choice to prioritize 60fps during combat. It's all about smart decisions in the face of hardware and/or engine limtations.
I'm guessing PC brute force will have excellent results a la Returnal.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Engine
Mr Moose
Member
This game looks nothing like the new Zelda game. Do you really want to compare them?
Never mind, someone shows up with 16 posts since 2014. Enjoy your Switch.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Game looks great but this is legitimately a scenario in which you're forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. It's not some slow-paced stealth/walking game like A Plague Tale where Quality Mode is the obvious choice. The fast-paced combat benefits from 60fps but man the image quality breakup is rough in Performance Mode and outside of combat, the performance isn't even great.
A bit of a shame because it looks like an FF game I'd really like and I'll probably pick it up if they ever release that PS5 Pro (which seems increasingly unlikely) or that slimmer/smaller model.
A bit of a shame because it looks like an FF game I'd really like and I'll probably pick it up if they ever release that PS5 Pro (which seems increasingly unlikely) or that slimmer/smaller model.
muno
Neo Member
I wasn't really saying that it did. Both games use PBR materials with a derferred renderer. Polygon count, particles, "RT" shadows should have all been scaled back for FF16. The PS5 clearly can't handle all that. Also, it seems like this engine has a lot of legacy bloat that needs to be dealt with.
01011001
Banned
a smart descision would have been to add a 120hz mode so that VRR is useable on PS5, and to maybe set the 60hz version of the performance mode up in a way that it snaps to a 30fps and 60fps lock depending on what is happening.
01011001
Banned
FSR1.0 is not reconstruction. it's just an edge sharpening tech that tries to add additional pixels to edges of meshes.
so it absolutely is 720p
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
01011001
Banned
Snap back and forth between locked 30 and locked 60!? Smart??
I mean what it does now is snap between 40fps and 60fps in many places... that's literally worse because the PS5 has no way to effectively use VRR in the game, as it doesn't have a 120hz mode either.
so the choice would be, an unstable framerate that is on average at like the low 40s to low 50s, and then snaps to 60fps in combat.
or add a way that the game just locks to 30fps outside of combat so that the frame delivery is even and not completely unstable.
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TheKremlinBossMan
Banned
I just got to a spot not long after the demo concludes where I just stood there confused. Some environments look real as shit.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I'd take a universal 40hz over different fps personally. This is the kind of game where you're running into battles every half a minute or so, I reckon constantly snapping between 30 and 60 will be a very jarring experience.
Games which have 60 FPS game play but 30 FPS cut-scenes (eg Diablo IV) wouldn't have that issue cause cut-scenes are few and far between.
TheKremlinBossMan
Banned
It absolutely is not 720p as they are employing an upscaling technique, it's just not a very good one.
01011001
Banned
this would all not be remotely an issue if they had a 120hz mode.
in a 120hz mode the game would be completely fine, basically like Elden Ring on Series X.
but as it stands now, in the 60hz output it currently uses, a 30fps and 60fps swap would be better in many of the game's environments, as it already is set up in a way that it snaps to 60fps during battle by lowering the resolution all the way to 720p. and as seen in the video, outside of battles it's in the ~45fps nomansland, where the VRR range of the PS5 can't help anymore, and non-VRR users will have a completely unstable experience.
yes it's called FSR1.0 and that's as much of an upscaler as a TV's build-in "image enhancements" are upscalers. in short, better left off and forgotten.
and up-scaling =/= up-sampling/reconstruction-
upscaling always happens when the render resolution is below your TV's screen resolution. either the console or your TV scale up the image to fit into the pixel grid of the TV.
720p upscaled is still 720p
Ivan
Member
I was talking in principle, but I get it...
ChorizoPicozo
Member
yep. 4k is such a waste of everything. but these companies have to push something to sell new shit.
01011001
Banned
even thinking about the input lag of your TV makes me shiver tbh.
that alone would make it impossible for me to go back to a TV from that era
Low Moral Fibre
Member
I said it was 720p just from looking at the demo - there’s zero percent chance I’d have been able to do that if it was using DLSS but with FSR it’s very easy. FSR 1 isn’t remotely close to DLSS and it is very obvious what a low resolution this game is running at. Even FSR 2 looks bad from such a low resolution.
Going from 1600p or something to 4k I think you’d be hard pressed to tell it was being upscaled without really inspecting it but going from 720p is blatantly obvious. In many ways 720p FSR looks worse than 720p native - it may be a little sharper but you get fuzzy pixelly artifacts and noise around everything.
I think it’s absolutely fair to refer to this game as dropping to 720p.
Hoddi
Member
Not an issue with a gamepad. I also play most of my PC games with a gamepad and I've never even noticed a difference between my 60hz plasma and 165hz LCD.
It's very different from mouse and keyboard controls.
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BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Godspeed, but that’s not a good way to play a character action game imo.
It’s not even close
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Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
And that's with 12+GB VRAM and for sure not the best GFX settings which will be available on PC - somehow I don't think that 16GB VRAM will be enough for native 1440p and native 4K will for sure require 24GB card to run the game at locked 30 FPS. And if the dev team will decide to upgrade PC version with tech and GFX features not available on PS5 (just like they did with PC version of FFXIV)...
That's almost on the level of Nintendo Switch....
I've no words....
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