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[bigmakattack]

We should develop a set of criteria for sterilizing people. It shouldn't be because we don't like the way they look or what religion they are. It should be based on their past deeds. You have a kid at 13, we're taking a serious look at you.

And not only have I read the OP, I have read about this exact case in North Carolina before.

I sincerely hope you never hold a position of power.

 

[ZealousD]

I certainly don't subscribe to Eugenics, but what FutureZombie is saying is something I've heard a lot from many, many people. And I'm certain that many gaffers, at some point in their life, have met certain people and thought that they shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

 

[WedgeX]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...the_United_States#Human_radiation_experiments

We do terrible things to each other.

Fuck.

 

[mr2xxx]

WTF I have never heard about this. Why don't teach this shit in any history class I have ever been in?

 

[FutureZombie]

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

Someone robs a bank, you put them in jail so they do not rob again.

Someone has 8 kids and is living on welfare, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids who grow up to rob a bank.

 

[The_Inquisitor]

We should develop a set of criteria for sterilizing people. It shouldn't be because we don't like the way they look or what religion they are. It should be based on their past deeds. You have a kid at 13, we're taking a serious look at you.

And not only have I read the OP, I have read about this exact case in North Carolina before.

Wow, just wow. I suggest you read some history.

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

Someone robs a bank, you put them in jail so they do not rob again.

Someone has 8 kids and is living on welfare, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids who grow up to rob a bank.

Right because people develop solely due to their genes and not any environmental influences. Listen to yourself.

 

[Parallax]

We should develop a set of criteria for sterilizing people. It shouldn't be because we don't like the way they look or what religion they are. It should be based on their past deeds. You have a kid at 13, we're taking a serious look at you.

And not only have I read the OP, I have read about this exact case in North Carolina before.

stop fucking talking. seriously.

 

[Mastadon]

Its pretty apparent that sterilizing a 10 year old is wrong. Do we need to discuss if we agree with that or not? Pretty much a moot point so I was talking about the article discussing some criminals were as well.

And yes, if you murder a few people, youre going to be a bad parent.

What? Criminal =! murderer. Nowhere in the article does it state that they were serious criminals or particularly dangerous.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

WTF I have never heard about this. Why don't teach this shit in any history class I have ever been in?

Because the only time American History is discussed in negative terms is when discussing slavery and the Trail of Tears. And even then, discussion is minimal.

Most nations try to hide from the bad things they've done to themselves or to others.

 

[giga]

Habitual sex offenders shouldnt be sterilized?

No, for me that's cruel and unusual punishment like the death penalty. Criminals deserve to be punished but not something that's irreversible.

 

[Coins]

Someone has 8 kids and is recording people having sex with them, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids to molest.

There. I fixed that for you.

 

[Brobzoid]

No, sir. I've never heard of this until today, at around 5:35pm EST.

Someone needs to make a documentary about this and get these people on camera before they're forever lost to history.

huh, in High school we were taught about American eugenics as an aside to the race studies that went on here in Scandinavia, most noticeably forced sterilization of indigenous people in northern Scandinavia that continued til 1975. I assumed americans would be taught about their history similarly.

 

[FutureZombie]

Wow, just wow. I suggest you read some history.



Right because people develop solely due to their genes and not any environmental influences. Listen to yourself.

We're not basing it on their genes. We're basing it on their actions. Just a guess here, but most violent criminals don't make great parents. That is not a fair assessment?

 

[perfectnight]

I certainly don't subscribe to Eugenics, but what FutureZombie is saying is something I've heard a lot from many, many people. And I'm certain that many gaffers, at some point in their life, have met certain people and thought that they shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

Eugenics is as flawed as the death penalty because of the inevitable human error and bias that will seep its way into the system. If you think Eugenics is a valid concept for civilization you are literally an idiot manchild.

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

Someone robs a bank, you put them in jail so they do not rob again.

Someone has 8 kids and is living on welfare, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids who grow up to rob a bank.

Like this one.

 

[Kad5]

Our education system pisses me off sometimes.

How come I was never told this in history class?

Goddamn the more I educate myself the more I realize that America has been and may possibly currently be more evil than most countries in the world right now.

 

[marathonfool]

Did you know there is no race gene? Eugenics was developed solely to oppress people of minority status.

 

[Coins]

What? Criminal =! murderer. Nowhere in the article does it state that they were serious criminals or particularly dangerous.

Thanks for reiterating what I already said.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Because the only time American History is discussed in negative terms is when discussing slavery and the Trail of Tears. And even then, discussion is minimal.

Most nations try to hide from the bad things they've done to themselves or to others.

You went to a shitty school then.

edit:Assuming you meant in schools.

 

[gwarm01]

Wait, wait, wait. There was a eugenics program in the United States? In North Carolina? What the fuck?

 

[FutureZombie]

This is discussed in History classes. I've learned about American eugenics in both of the universities I have studied in.

 

[kehs]

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

Someone robs a bank, you put them in jail so they do not rob again.

Someone has 8 kids and is living on welfare, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids who grow up to rob a bank.

I can't detect the nuance, step ya game up.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Wait, wait, wait. There was a eugenics program in the United States? In North Carolina? What the fuck?

Yes, how old are you?

 

[CornBurrito]

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

1. As someone already said, there is a time and place for this discussion. This thread isn't it.

2. Maybe because jail is a fucking reversible decision? If you wrongly jail someone you can get them out of jail. If you wrongly sterilize someone... what then?

This is discussed in History classes. I've learned about American eugenics in both of the universities I have studied in.

It isn't taught in High School. Or at least my school didn't teach it.

 

[PflargBlarg]

So Eugenics is a good thing? WUT. I won't bother commenting other than to say that you should read the OP. Many victims were people were forced into sterilization for whom there was nothing wrong and were doing nothing wrong. Americans were sterilized that were raped. Americans were sterilized because their teachers didn't like them. Americans were coerced into sterilized by Social Workers.

If that doesn't disgust you, well...it doesn't seem we had much to discuss anyway.


No, sir. I've never heard of this until today, at around 5:35pm EST.

Someone needs to make a documentary about this and get these people on camera before they're forever lost to history.

Also, here's the trailer for the book referenced in the article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFqxeeMGIRk

I'll add it to the OP.

Eugenics is not inherently a bad thing, although it's fairly certain to run into some ethical issues. I mean, I would at least think about fetal genetic modification to remove/modify harmful genes (only if it could be fully determined that these genes were strictly harmful), such as whatever causes downs syndrome and other mental and physical disorders. I'm also very wary of this somehow leading to personality modification by removing genes for aggressiveness or something. Eugenics via forced sterilization, on the other hand, is completely insane.

So taking that into consideration, this story is horrific.

 

[besada]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0385509936/?tag=neogaf0e-20[/URL]

Read it. Most of it was stuff I'd already read. I grew up in the seventies and saw some of the initial revelations about this stuff first hand. It's been on my mind since.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This is discussed in History classes. I've learned about American eugenics in both of the universities I have studied in.

Same including the studying of Buck v Bell itself.

 

[Xyphie]

Social dems used to do this stuff in Sweden like less than 40 years ago, sterilized like 60000 people over a few decades.

 

[Sibylus]

I sincerely hope you never hold a position of power.

And if he does, I sincerely hope a scandal buries him. Blithely advocating forcible sterilization of teenage mothers, as if they're irredeemable? That's fucked up.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing?

My friend, you can't possibly be this out of touch. It's just not possible.

I know several people who accidentally became teenage mothers, but who went on to be successful and have more successful children. Not an exaggeration. My last GFs mother had her first child at 17, IIRC. She ultimately had 4 more children (all the rest were while married), all of which have graduated college. 1 is a software engineer, 1 is a teacher, and my ex graduated with a double-masters in Public Policy and...shit, I can't remember.

I know another who had a daughter at 16 and hasn't had one since. She just got married earlier this year and is trying to finally have her second. The one child she did have is on the gifted & talented track and has been moved up 2 grades (she's in the 5th grade now).

So who the fuck are you to decide that neither of the women in my examples should be able to have children in the future?

Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds? Do you realize that eventually that "teenage mother" will no longer be a teenager at some point, but sterilization can't be reversed?

And why the fuck am I even replying to you? I guess I always hope that people have some common fucking sense...that it can be slapped into them with my words. I think too much of myself.

Read it. Most of it was stuff I'd already read. I grew up in the seventies and saw some of the initial revelations about this stuff first hand. It's been on my mind since.

Book changed my life in many ways. I used to dismiss older people who hated going to the doctor. Now I understand why. :-(

 

[Devolution]

We're not basing it on their genes. We're basing it on their actions. Just a guess here, but most violent criminals don't make great parents. That is not a fair assessment?

Why are you pulling this derail in this thread. If anything the fucking OP proves just how awful, bullshit and biased forced sterilization is. Who should decide these things? You? Please, you've proven yourself to be an emotionally stunted individual who shouldn't judge anyone's capacity to raise children.

 

[Coins]

No, for me that's cruel and unusual punishment like the death penalty. Criminals deserve to be punished but not something that's irreversible.

James Couey would not have assaulted that little girl in Florida and murdered her if he had his desire to have sex taken away with castration.

He was a previous sex offender who was busted for masturbating in a 5 year olds face.

No he is on death row which is going to cost the Florida taxpayers a lot of money and doesnt do anything to help out the dead girl.

 

[FutureZombie]

2. Maybe because jail is a fucking reversible decision? If you wrongly jail someone you can get them out of jail. If you wrongly sterilize someone... what then?

Do you know that Ted Bundy fathered a child while in prison?

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

This isn't new. Shit like this has been going on for a long time in this country. If you're a non white Christian male, America is one of evil countries on this planet

Spoiler

yes I know it's hyperbole

 

[radioheadrule83]

The west is full of hypocrisies like this -- some of the victorious allied nations operated internment camps during and after WW2 that were only a little better than concentration camps (by virtue of not systematically killing people in them), but the conditions were often pretty inhumane and bad enough that people did suffer and die in them.

As for eugenics and sterilisation - if it weren't for the horrors of the holocaust, such horrible thinking might still have been prevalent today.

A good read on old Francis Galton, Charles Darwin's cousin, and the father of Eugenics here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/magazine-13775520

My favourite part is the bit about how he made a Beauty map of Britain and Aberdeen came last!

 

[FoneBone]

I certainly don't subscribe to Eugenics, but what FutureZombie is saying is something I've heard a lot from many, many people. And I'm certain that many gaffers, at some point in their life, have met certain people and thought that they shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

We probably all have, but that doesn't mean that it's the government's business to make those decisions.

 

[Vestal]

Oh, I'm a bad guy for not wanting criminals and teenage mothers to keep reproducing? Why is it such a violation of rights to sterilize people, but putting them in jail is fine?

Someone robs a bank, you put them in jail so they do not rob again.

Someone has 8 kids and is living on welfare, you sterilize them so they don't have 8 more kids who grow up to rob a bank.

Seriously GTFO of this thread. You are digging yourself further and further down a hole.


How the hell can you equate putting someone in Jail to opening her up and altering her body for the rest of her life?!?!?!??!?!?!

Don't you believe in Rehabilitation?!

Are you seriously prejudging children who are born into welfare will by default become criminals?

 

[CornBurrito]

Do you know that Ted Bundy fathered a child while in prison?

How does this in any way shape or form answer my question?

If you wrongly jail someone you can get them out of jail. If you wrongly sterilize someone... what then?

Hmm... you failed to answer a simple question. Maybe we should sterilize you herp durp!

 

[kehs]

Do you know that Ted Bundy fathered a child while in prison?

While fathering a child is "technically" a form of cloning, a child is not a clone.

 

[Devolution]

Do you know that Ted Bundy fathered a child while in prison?

That has fuck all to do with this, good for him. I bet his kid is a well known serial killer, oh wait. Haven't heard anything.

 

[Atramental]

I remember when one of my history teachers told me about these eugenics programs in the US.

My jaw fucking dropped.

 

[WedgeX]

So. Compensation.

Allow them to adopt family members and have the state pay all associated costs (medical, education, housing) for the duration of their lifetime.

Not even close to enough compensation. But a start.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

You went to a shitty school then.

edit:Assuming you meant in schools.

Yes, I meant in schools.

And they only taught what was in the history books, man. I even gave a speech about it in high school that talked about the problem. I remember specifically looking at the history books we had in our High School American History class and searching for black history only to find 3 paragraphs dedicated to the entirety of the Civil Rights movement. And approximately 4 paragraphs or so dedicated to slavery.

The oppression of the Native Americans was never discussed in those terms, and the Trail of Tears and the broader subject of the genocide and fucking-over of Native Americans was largely absent and relegated to K-6 history courses.

So. Compensation.

Allow them to adopt family members and have the state pay all associated costs (medical, education, housing) for the duration of their lifetime.

Not even close to enough compensation. But a start.

remember, these victims are now mostly in their 50s-80s now. It's really too late for that kind of compensation. :-(

 

[Vestal]

Do you know that Ted Bundy fathered a child while in prison?

So you are saying that Ted Bundys son is predestined to be a Criminal? Im not in favor of people fathering children while in prison..

But im sorry the Sins of the father do not translate to the son.. I know this from experience.. My Grandfather was a fucking murderer back in Spain before he came here and got my Grandma pregnant.. My dad never met him, he was hung back in Spain and neither I or my Father have any sort of criminal tendencies, actually my father is even more conscious of that sort of behaviour and tries his best to help against crime.

 

[CornBurrito]

That has fuck all to do with this, good for him. I bet his kid is a well known serial killer, oh wait. Haven't heard anything.

It has nothing to do with this. He just sidestepped my question. Probably because in his sick twisted mind there is no such thing as "wrongly sterilizing someone."

 

[besada]

Book changed my life in many ways. I used to dismiss older people who hated going to the doctor. Now I understand why. :-(

If you've only read that book, though, I'd recommend further reading. It glances over other groups that were treated as bad or worse -- particularly the mentally ill. But no, I certainly can't blame older black folks for fearing doctors. Or criminals. I'd have to be pretty damned sick in prison before I let a prison doctor take a poke at me.

 

[giga]

James Couey would not have assaulted that little girl in Florida and murdered her if he had his desire to have sex taken away with castration.

He was a previous sex offender who was busted for masturbating in a 5 year olds face.

No he is on death row which is going to cost the Florida taxpayers a lot of money and doesnt do anything to help out the dead girl.

http://shp-law.com/shp-law/Resources Blog/32F3E1C8-9435-46C4-BF4E-AD1183883049.html

 

[Jin34]

Yes, I meant in schools.

And they only taught what was in the history books, man. I even gave a speech about it in high school that talked about the problem. I remember specifically looking at the history books we had in our High School American History class and searching for black history only to find 3 paragraphs dedicated to the entirety of the Civil Rights movement. And approximately 4 paragraphs or so dedicated to slavery.

The oppression of the Native Americans was never discussed in those terms, and the Trail of Tears and the broader subject of the genocide and fucking-over of Native Americans was largely absent and relegated to K-6 history courses.


remember, these victims are now mostly in their 50s-80s now. It's really too late for that kind of compensation. :-(

What state was this? Also I had no idea about a eugenics program in the US. However I did know how they used women in certain parts here as lab rats for birth control pills and the like.

 

[WedgeX]

remember, these victims are now mostly in their 50s-80s now. It's really too late for that kind of compensation. :-(

Well, adopting their own family, next of kin, kids in the adoption system, whatever. And paying for all services for the entirety of the adoptees lives.

And yeah, it is too late for NC to be talking about compensation. This should have happened in the 80s or immediately after they stopped the program.

It's truly rage inducing.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

If you've only read that book, though, I'd recommend further reading. It glances over other groups that were treated as bad or worse -- particularly the mentally ill. But no, I certainly can't blame older black folks for fearing doctors. Or criminals. I'd have to be pretty damned sick in prison before I let a prison doctor take a poke at me.

I will, then. Thanks for the tip. :-(

Oh, and look what I found, GAF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaH0Ws8RtSc


I wouldn't teach this in American schools either. Wowsers.

What state was this? Also I had no idea about a eugenics program in the US. However I did know how they used women in certain parts here as lab rats for birth control pills and the like.

Ohio

 

[Vestal]

Yes, I meant in schools.

And they only taught what was in the history books, man. I even gave a speech about it in high school that talked about the problem. I remember specifically looking at the history books we had in our High School American History class and searching for black history only to find 3 paragraphs dedicated to the entirety of the Civil Rights movement. And approximately 4 paragraphs or so dedicated to slavery.

The oppression of the Native Americans was never discussed in those terms, and the Trail of Tears and the broader subject of the genocide and fucking-over of Native Americans was largely absent and relegated to K-6 history courses.


remember, these victims are now mostly in their 50s-80s now. It's really too late for that kind of compensation. :-(

Sadly I had not heard of this till I hit College and even then we really didn't go to in depth.