Ugh, timeline talk. There is the split timline for the post-OOT console games with the DS games loosely bolted on after Wind Waker, a vague association between Minish Cap and Four Swords, and the rest of them just float around. Why do they all have to connect to each other anyway?
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Hyrule Historia, The Zelda 25th anniversary art book.
- Thread starter SilverLunar
- Start date
Because it absolutely makes more sense than the official one. I seriously believe that in making the timeline Aonuma or Miyamoto or someone just basically said
fuck the NES Legend of Zelda
fuck Zelda II
fuck Link's Awakening
fuck the Oracle games
fuck the Four Swords games
fuck Minish Cap
(all of the less popular Zelda games)
because the official timeline works fine if it's only
Skyward Sword->Ocarina of Time->The Wind Waker->Phantom Hourglass->Spirit Tracks
Skyward Sword->Ocarina of Time->Majora's Mask->Twilight Princess
Skyward Sword->Ocarina of Time->A Link to the Past
EmCeeGramr
Member
lmao the same characters appearing in multiple games with direct references to other games and confirmations within the games and by the creators of their relationship
"loosely bolted on" "vague association"
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Because the official timeline was confirmed earlier today? Also what EmCee said.
If you wanted to you could say
NES Legend of Zelda -> Zelda II -> Oracle series -> Link's Awakening
are seperate but the other 11 games all clearly connect.
I said rarely.
The fans weren't the ones fucking with Sonic by adding his shitty friends and making bad games.I think it assumes he never drew the Master Sword in the first place, never got the Ocarina, etc. OOT Link just lived in the with the Kokiri, never opened the Sacred Realm on his own, Ganon came to the castle, etc.
In the backstory for LttP no hero could defeat Ganon, so the sages sealed him. This third timeline is "what happens post OoT when the player dies?"
However if you take all the Zelda games into account and don't try to shoe-horn in game over screens, Four Swords Adventures is a much better prequel to LttP. It's just that Nintendo doesn't give two shits about half of the Zelda games but doesn't want to outright declare them non-canon and so puts them in nonsensical places in the official timeline.
He would have still had to have drawn the Master Sword, otherwise there's no way Ganon gets to the Triforce in the first place.
I'm still unsure of how an entire timeline is just created from Link failing though. The failure has to be specific to some event in Ocarina, it can't just be because he was killed by someone at some point. Otherwise you have a different timeline for every Game Over screen.
AND THAT'S JUST CRAZY
I believe that rather than representing some "Link fails" scenario, ALttP should represent the original timeline as it was meant to be, had Zelda not sent Link back at the end of OoT. In this original timeline Link still seals Ganon in the Sacred Realm, but also remains to continue the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule (thus the birth of ALttP Link). When Zelda sends Link back however, she creates two alternate realities at once. In one Ganon is never able to enter the Sacred Realm, and winds up sealed in the Twilight Realm instead. In the other, Ganon is sealed by Link in the Sacred Realm, but the Knight's bloodline ends when he is sent back in time. Thus on the eve of the Great Cataclysm, there is no hero to prevent Ganon from escaping the Sacred Realm, and the Godesses are forced to flood Hyrule.
In this way, the creation of two alternate timelines in opposition to the original timeline can stem from a single event; Zelda defying destiny to send Link back to his childhood.
In this way, the creation of two alternate timelines in opposition to the original timeline can stem from a single event; Zelda defying destiny to send Link back to his childhood.
So crazy it just might workBlader5489 said:
And here comes the inevitable backlash from people who will still argue the "correct" timeline, even when Nintendo presents it to them.
If it's clear from this book that Nintendo didn't really give a shit about making a clear and coherent timeline, then why is it worth coming up with more theories to disprove Nintendo's?
Not if it's a "what if" timeline.
I have a question, as I haven't seen anything yet to disprove this timeline that's supposed to be from the book.
Why is Four Swords Adventure not directly after Four Swords? Wasn't it billed as a direct sequel? The same goes for the Oracle games...they're inbetween two titles that have long been connected as the same Link, I thought.
Why is Four Swords Adventure not directly after Four Swords? Wasn't it billed as a direct sequel? The same goes for the Oracle games...they're inbetween two titles that have long been connected as the same Link, I thought.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
why zelda timeline don't have it's own thread. I thought it would be big enough to have it's own?
I don't think it was ever explicitly said, in the game or otherwise, that it's a direct sequel. But either way, FSA can't happen before OoT because the game is all about a new Ganondorf obtaining/being corrupted by the power of the old Ganon.
edit - and back on the subject of the 3rd timeline, apparently the book states that that future is caused by Link being defeated by Ganon in the adult Link story. So in other words, there are two adult Link timelines: one where he succeeds and Wind Waker happens centuries later, and one where Link fails and ALttP's imprisoning war happens.
Probably because, like I guessed earlier, Nintendo decided that it can't be before OoT because then people would know who Ganondorf is, but figured "hey there's a dark mirror in this game and a dark mirror in that game (TP) so lets put it there." Now, why they decided to put FS before OoT I have no idea.
As for the Oracle games, doesn't Link sail away at the end? Matches up with the opening to LA. Really the Oracle games are a mess continuity-wise anyway. The Triforce is fully formed and Ganon is dead, so that indicates that it's after ALttP, but it also has the Master Sword and Zelda not recognizing Link, so...best to just ignore the inconsistencies.
Zoramon089
Banned
Just because you don't like the DS games don't mean they were loosely bolted on. They CLEARLY, without a shadow of a doubt, come right after WW
But if he did draw it, and failed, how did the sword get back into the pedestal for ALttP? Who could've put it back, considering the sword can only be wielded by the chosen one of destiny (also it was the goddess sword when Ghirahim grabs it, not the master sword, so that is definitely not it)? I think what I said was right (and we'll have to wait for more translations to be sure) because regardless of how he got to it, Ganon's plan always was to get to the Sacred Realm and get the Triforce, just instead of having to do it a roundabout way, in OOT he took advantage of Link's position and him opening it the normal way.
Buddha Beam
Banned
The more I think about it, the more I like this more (as others have seemingly touched upon):
When Zelda sends Link back at the end of Ocarina, she actually creates the Majora's Mask timeline... possibly because she used the Ocarina to send him back, rather than using the Temple of Time.
The Wind Waker timeline stays as is.
That would mean that, ironically, the world in Ocarina is the one that actually leads to A Link to the Past. From those people's perspective, one day Link entered the Temple of Time and never came back again. Thus, Gannon takes over and the Imprisoning War talked about in LTTP occurs.
All because Zelda literally moved Link from the original timeline to the one she accidentally created. In effect, there would be only two Links for the three timelines.
This also does two things:
It avoids that rather depressing scenario of Link somehow failing and allowing Gannon to take over.
It also potentially explains why no one showed up during the events that preceded Wind Waker. There was no Link for that timeline, if you say "there are only two Links to be reincarnated within the three timelines".
In effect, it would look like this:
__SS___TMC___4S___OOT___LTTP___LA-LOZ
----------------------------|
----------------------------|___MM___TP, etc
----------------------------|
----------------------------|____WW___PH__ST
So, A Link to the Past and the other NES games would be on the original timeline.
When Zelda sends Link back at the end of Ocarina, she actually creates the Majora's Mask timeline... possibly because she used the Ocarina to send him back, rather than using the Temple of Time.
The Wind Waker timeline stays as is.
That would mean that, ironically, the world in Ocarina is the one that actually leads to A Link to the Past. From those people's perspective, one day Link entered the Temple of Time and never came back again. Thus, Gannon takes over and the Imprisoning War talked about in LTTP occurs.
All because Zelda literally moved Link from the original timeline to the one she accidentally created. In effect, there would be only two Links for the three timelines.
This also does two things:
It avoids that rather depressing scenario of Link somehow failing and allowing Gannon to take over.
It also potentially explains why no one showed up during the events that preceded Wind Waker. There was no Link for that timeline, if you say "there are only two Links to be reincarnated within the three timelines".
In effect, it would look like this:
__SS___TMC___4S___OOT___LTTP___LA-LOZ
----------------------------|
----------------------------|___MM___TP, etc
----------------------------|
----------------------------|____WW___PH__ST
So, A Link to the Past and the other NES games would be on the original timeline.
Timeline A (Link fails in OoT) is the shitbin timeline branch: older games whose stories make no sense anymore because of all the retcons/inconsistencies introduced by later games are thrown in there and forgotten.
So you end up with
&
If you've played the Four Swords series and the GBA remake of LttP you'd know that FSA is a prequel for LttP. The timeline involving all the games above is acceptably clear, unlike the official one.
The Triforce is fully formed (not wished upon either) and Ganon is dead after Zelda II. The Master Sword isn't presented in the mythical way it usually is so it's probably not "the" Master Sword. Oracle games & Link's Awakening make perfect sense after Zelda II.
They went and threw FSA after TP which is probably the least popular Zelda game of all.
I really like this, but so far it seems like everyone is claiming the book says the "failure" timeline stems from Link losing to Ganondorf in battle in OoT.
Does Nintendo just hate the Hero of Time or something? His story is easily the most depressing out of all the Links. His mother dies in a war and leaves him to grow up in a group of people he can never be truly a part of, he accidentally lets Ganondorf stroll into the Sacred Realm, and now he apparently dies in battle against Ganondorf in one timeline. In another world he goes looking for his friend and probably never comes back, turning into a Stalfos when he gets stuck in the Lost Woods or something and waiting around until a kindred spirit can take up his mantle (assuming he's the Hero's Shade). And then in ANOTHER world, the fact that he's busy mucking around in a different universe means Ganondorf shows up again and the whole world gets flooded.
It does make a lot of sense, but at the same time I've always seen Zelda II as the final one in that branch for the simple reason that the curtain falls at the end of the game (and the legendary" Zelda wakes up). Not a very compelling reason to be sure, but I guess Nintendo must have agreed with it.
Well, that particular Link would still be the last one to save Hyrule from Ganon in the traditional sort of way. Oracles are just a continuation of Ganon's minions trying to revive him and Link's Awakening is a side story like Majora's Mask.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
I think it's a real shame that they actually revealed the timeline. A part of the series' mystique has now been lost forever (it was the part that actually was a legend in the true sense of the word)
That being said, a triple spilt timeline is a genius solution! Especially when you think of how the original child Link is separate from the "child" Link who goes back in time at the end of OoT.
This makes a lot of sense. I now have only one issue with the official timeline. FOUR SWORDS ADVENTURES COMING AFTER TWILIGHT PRINCESS MAKES NO GODDAMN SENSE WHATSOEVER! (How the fuck does Ganondorf magically come back to life for no reason?!)
That being said, a triple spilt timeline is a genius solution! Especially when you think of how the original child Link is separate from the "child" Link who goes back in time at the end of OoT.
This makes a lot of sense. I now have only one issue with the official timeline. FOUR SWORDS ADVENTURES COMING AFTER TWILIGHT PRINCESS MAKES NO GODDAMN SENSE WHATSOEVER! (How the fuck does Ganondorf magically come back to life for no reason?!)
?
The Ganondorf in FSA has always been a new Ganon. Part of that game's story is how he becomes corrupted by the spirit of the old Ganon.
I don't understand people's problem with this. How did he come back to life between ALttP and LoZ? Nobody ever cared about that.
How does Link come back every single time? Because he's incarnated by the Spirit of the Hero. Ganondorf is
incarnated by the hatred of Demise.
Not an inconsistency. We see Ganon die 3 times in the series, so it would make sense if there are three Ganons. All incarnations of
Demise's
The issue is that there are clearly many more connections between FSA and LttP than there is between OoT and LttP. Nintendo chose OoT to appease people who haven't played the less popular games, whilst fucking the timeline up.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
His minions probably succeeded in mixing his ashes with Link's blood (either that or he made the wrong wish and wished for things to "go back to the way they were" rather than wishing for the eradication of evil/Ganon)
After all (Skyward Sword spoilers)
he did sort of waste his Triforce wish in Skyward Sword. He simply asked for the destruction of Demise, rather than wishing for him to be eradicated from history; so him making the wrong wish wouldn't be a series first!
Ganon dies 3 times in the Adult timeline and twice in the Failed timeline. He doesn't die in the Child Timeline though (He's only turned to stone)
But he has no means of coming back though! In the Failed timeline, they have a solid means of bringing him back (mixing his ashes with Link's blood and we see Ganon's minions attempting this twice). In FSA, he comes back because of the Trident (which is not explained in any real way at all!)
I think you've got those mixed up. He dies 3 times in the Failed Timeline (ALttP, Oracles, LoZ), 1 time in the Adult Timeline (I think getting stabbed in the head pretty much killed him; the turning to stone thing is just a fancy detail), and 1 time in the Child Timeline (TP).
Oracles Ganon wasn't really Ganon as we know him and Ganon was stabbed in the head at the end of OoT and that didn't do it (he's also able to speak before being turned to stone.)
Reading this thread, I've got two things on my mind. First is that I need this Historia like I need oxygen.
Second, where the fuck is TSA?
Mr. I-demand-people-to-acknowledge-the-timeline is oddly absent from this thread. I would imagine this news would be the greatest day of his life.
Second, where the fuck is TSA?
Mr. I-demand-people-to-acknowledge-the-timeline is oddly absent from this thread. I would imagine this news would be the greatest day of his life.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Neither is Ganon in FSA, but at least he had a way of coming back in Oracles and Zelda 2 (nobody seems to care about how his spirit even got to interact with that Trident, with nothing to contain him in!)
Ganon had the ability to split his soul from his body in the Failed timeline (as demonstrated in ALTTP). He has no such ability in either of the other 2 timelines.
Because when he picks up the sword as a kid he gets sent to the moment he last returned the sword as an adult and vis versa. I thought that was obvious.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Ganondorf never had a Trident in either of those games... (ALTTP is the only other Zelda game to feature a Trident)
The resurrected Ganon in the Oracle games has a trident and he had it in the original NES Zelda (BS-X Broadcasting System version lol.)
I'm going to expand on what I typed up earlier (since I did it on my lunch and was in a hurry). There's two types of time travel in Ocarina of Time. The first is what the Master Sword does, it's similar to Back to the Future. You travel between two points, but if you make any changes in the past, a new timeline is created. The other is basically Zelda creating a timeline with the Ocarina, which she does at the end of the game. Here's a more detailed breakdown of the 3 timelines.
Timeline 1 (the original timeline): Link pulls the Master Sword and goes into his 7 year hibernation in the Sacred Realm, this pulls him out of Hyrule for 7 years. During that 7 year span, Ganondorf begins his assault on Hyrule. Because there is nobody to wield the Master Sword, 7 Wise Men (or Sages in the GBA version I believe) seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. This sets up the events of A Link to the Past, and the rest of the 2d games.
Timeline 2: (the Adult timeline): Link wakes up from his 7 year hibernation inside the Sacred Realm (just a hunch, but I think Link and Rauru are in the pyramid from A Link to the Past), Rauru sends Link back to Hyrule. At this point, we're still on timeline 1, which is why Link can go back and forth by placing and removing the Master Sword. Timeline 2 is created when Link plays the Song of Storms in the windmill in Kakariko. He alters the future by doing something in the past (like when old Biff gives young Biff the sports almanac in Back to the Future 2). When Link returns to the future by removing the Master Sword, he is traveling between timeline 1 and timeline 2 (like when Marty goes back to 1985 after young Biff got the almanac and everything was changed). Link defeats Ganondorf, the sages seal him in the Sacred Realm and the events of Wind Waker happen.
Timeline 3 (the Zelda created timeline): Zelda uses the Ocarina to send Link back to regain his childhood, however, instead of going to timeline 1, he goes to a new timeline. Because he was sent back via the Ocarina and not the Master Sword (he puts it back after he arrives) is what causes the split (this also closes off any chance of Link returning to timeline 1). In this timeline, Link warns everyone in Hyrule Castle about Ganondorf (the Triforce of Courage is his evidence) and Ganondorf's attack on Hyrule fails, he's arrested and that's when the events of Twilight Princess take place, after Link goes on his trip through Termina (and really fucks up their timeline, creating a shitload of new timelines that are doomed to end in 3 days every time).
Some people have been wondering how Four Swords can connect to Twilight Princess. Ganondorf is killed at the end of Twilight Princess when Zant snaps his neck and the Triforce of Power leaves him (the ToP was keeping him alive). A new Gerudo male is born and he either is named Ganondorf or changes his name to Ganondorf. He breaks Gerudo law and breaks into the pyramid and steals the Trident, the evil power of the Trident turns him in Ganon. Its pretty much confirmed that the Ganondorf\Ganon in Four Swords Adventures isn't the same Ganondorf from Ocarina.
Timeline 1 (the original timeline): Link pulls the Master Sword and goes into his 7 year hibernation in the Sacred Realm, this pulls him out of Hyrule for 7 years. During that 7 year span, Ganondorf begins his assault on Hyrule. Because there is nobody to wield the Master Sword, 7 Wise Men (or Sages in the GBA version I believe) seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. This sets up the events of A Link to the Past, and the rest of the 2d games.
Timeline 2: (the Adult timeline): Link wakes up from his 7 year hibernation inside the Sacred Realm (just a hunch, but I think Link and Rauru are in the pyramid from A Link to the Past), Rauru sends Link back to Hyrule. At this point, we're still on timeline 1, which is why Link can go back and forth by placing and removing the Master Sword. Timeline 2 is created when Link plays the Song of Storms in the windmill in Kakariko. He alters the future by doing something in the past (like when old Biff gives young Biff the sports almanac in Back to the Future 2). When Link returns to the future by removing the Master Sword, he is traveling between timeline 1 and timeline 2 (like when Marty goes back to 1985 after young Biff got the almanac and everything was changed). Link defeats Ganondorf, the sages seal him in the Sacred Realm and the events of Wind Waker happen.
Timeline 3 (the Zelda created timeline): Zelda uses the Ocarina to send Link back to regain his childhood, however, instead of going to timeline 1, he goes to a new timeline. Because he was sent back via the Ocarina and not the Master Sword (he puts it back after he arrives) is what causes the split (this also closes off any chance of Link returning to timeline 1). In this timeline, Link warns everyone in Hyrule Castle about Ganondorf (the Triforce of Courage is his evidence) and Ganondorf's attack on Hyrule fails, he's arrested and that's when the events of Twilight Princess take place, after Link goes on his trip through Termina (and really fucks up their timeline, creating a shitload of new timelines that are doomed to end in 3 days every time).
Some people have been wondering how Four Swords can connect to Twilight Princess. Ganondorf is killed at the end of Twilight Princess when Zant snaps his neck and the Triforce of Power leaves him (the ToP was keeping him alive). A new Gerudo male is born and he either is named Ganondorf or changes his name to Ganondorf. He breaks Gerudo law and breaks into the pyramid and steals the Trident, the evil power of the Trident turns him in Ganon. Its pretty much confirmed that the Ganondorf\Ganon in Four Swords Adventures isn't the same Ganondorf from Ocarina.
MisterHero
Super Member
Phantom Ganon in OoT has a Trident
AlucarD.eq
Member
Ahgg... to buy or not to buy. I'm in China so the shipping will be a little more cheaper but I don't speak Japanese at all :/
AgentOtaku
Member
Man, Play-asia is already out of stock =(
Any other places to get this?
Any other places to get this?
Obligatory "where do the CD-i games fit in all this" post.
Actually this has been a very fascinating revelation. I'm glad for some closure on it all. And I agree with Jocchan on the "failed" timeline just being a place to plonk the narratively inconsistent Zelda titles (even though LTTP, the Oracle games and LA pretty clearly match up.)
Actually this has been a very fascinating revelation. I'm glad for some closure on it all. And I agree with Jocchan on the "failed" timeline just being a place to plonk the narratively inconsistent Zelda titles (even though LTTP, the Oracle games and LA pretty clearly match up.)
AlucarD.eq
Member
maybe in Amazon.jp
IrishNinja
Member
shit, that went fast.
this is what i get for debating getting these things or not, gonna be $100+ easily on ebay i bet.