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[maabus1999]

The harder they make inferno, the more "optimal" everyone will attempt to make their builds.

As more and more optimal builds that are discovered and discussed, the more cookie cutter the endgame will be.

If anyone doesn't see that a harder inferno = less build diversity is fooling themselves IMO. I guarantee the first person who beats inferno and posts their build will be copied by the vast majority of the player base. Build diversity will reappear as the player base becomes more comfortable with the game (like in every game) but will still be fairly optimal.

I will caveat this by saying is if they somehow tune this so gear is the main driver in Inferno success and not player skill (i.e., the iLvL of gear stats just exponentionally shoots up to make a huge difference), then this game will indirectly at launch become the infamous "pay to win" scenario as people will buy the gear necessary to complete inferno to get their "world firsts" and what not that plagues MMOs. I would be very disappointed if success becomes heavily weighted on gear being you will be level 60 already at Inferno.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

WAIT, so inferno isn't all the same ilvl now? Wasn't the entire freaking point of inferno to give max level characters an even difficulty to farm items where no one area was better than the others??? Wasn't the whole point to avoid people doing endless Baal runs over and over and OVER again????? So if inferno slowly ramps up in difficulty to a max level, just like every other level, then does it stand to reason that the end of inferno will be better to farm for drops, just like hell in D2?



This disappoints me greatly if it's the case. I was real excited about inferno being an entire difficulty level with no specific best area to run. Doesn't sound like that's the situation anymore....

There's a couple of blue posts on the topic that should assuage your concerns. It really is a change for the better.

 

[maabus1999]

This was my impression as well, but no one knows the EXP scaling to 60 and Diablo II had some insane ramp ups with very punishing deaths to 99. So I'll give them half credit on this.

Most likely through I give it a group of guys finding some overpowered mechanic and they do it in <3 weeks.

You are supposed to be almost 60 by the time you finish Hell difficulty the first time IIRC.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Quick question; I've been reading through this thread quite a bit and it seems that the beta is still pretty damn easy even after the difficulty has since been ramped up a bit. I know everyone is saying, "relax, it gets harder", and well thats all fine and good. But diablo 2 was definitely not easy at the beginning. By the time you were level 10 or so, you definitely had to grind a bit before moving to the next area with most characters (especially if playing alone). Is that feeling of progression gone?

I'm sure at some point there is a wall to hit, but I want to feel like I get more powerful, not less.

 

[V_Arnold]

Pay to win? As in pay to Blizzard? Or pay to who? The players who already got there? But how could you be the first to get there if there is no one "there" to farm the best gear for you? : )

Let us face it: the groups with the best gear will be those that rely on skill on handling the hardest group, therefore having better chance of clearing every champion pack they encounter, compared to those that simply try buying the best items from the AH.

The first few weeks will be so much fun to see: I will anticipate a lot of freakout posts over some people having some lucky drops and doing some farms, but in the long run, the most talented groups will have the best gear, the best skill, and the most "success" in the game.

 

[Mengy]

There's a couple of blue posts on the topic that should assuage your concerns. It really is a change for the better.

I can't access the Blizzard forums here from work, but I'd be curious to see how this change is one for the better. Inferno was supposed to be unique in that no one area was going to be the "best" to farm. Ramping monster levels and ilevels will not foster that, it will just be a harder hell difficulty now. With the very end boss being the most optimal loot pinata, just like Baal's throne room in D2. I don't want to be forced to run one boss over and over and freaking over again, they had a great idea to fix it and now it sounds like they are going backwards?

Could someone post blue's reasons for this, I'm curious as to what the upside is...

 

[maabus1999]

There's a couple of blue posts on the topic that should assuage your concerns. It really is a change for the better.

Actually it is the least creative solution to previous questions about Inferno IMO. They could've done other methods like having any monster be able to spawn in any act (or a good portion). True it might be out of place but just imagine act I and you have some towering demons from Act IV just appear and chase you around. It would make Inferno feel different at least.

Bottom line is, people will figured out Inferno quickly (even if it is super Inferno-only gear dependent) and you will have the same game that people criticised D2 for the past year with "Baal runs." Now it is once again Act IV runs with maybe a little exploration to stack Neph Valor (but I'm sure that won't take long to max out). I just find it how ironic where everyone was defending Blizzard and saying how great it was not to be like D2 Baal runs which were dumb in their opinion, yet now Blizzard says "yep, we have to do it like before," everyone then says "oh this is the best change ever."

I like (or did depending on how D3 ends up) Blizzard, but their fanbase is turning into the Apple fanbase where they can do no wrong, which IMO is bad.

 

[V_Arnold]

I can't access the Blizzard forums here from work, but I'd be curious to see how this change is one for the better. Inferno was supposed to be unique in that no one area was going to be the "best" to farm. Ramping monster levels and ilevels will not foster that, it will just be a harder hell difficulty now. With the very end boss being the most optimal loot pinata, just like Baal's throne room in D2. I don't want to be forced to run one boss over and over and freaking over again, they had a great idea to fix it and now it sounds like they are going backwards?

Could someone post blue's reasons for this, I'm curious as to what the upside is...

Even if we use common sense: Normal is what? 1-30? Nightmare? 30-45? Hell: 45-60? Then by definition, Inferno is the least spread out still, with 61-65 mob levels.

The endbosses are already confirmed to not be the best loot pinata as they have less chance of dropping the best gear than the random champions do.

Also, the blue posts:

I just wrote like three pages of a reply and the forums lost it when I clicked Preview. &#8230; *cry*

Ok what it boiled down to was:
Read my previous post. It seems like some people glossed over it.
I&#8217;m happy most of you are happy about the change, and I know you&#8217;re going to love the game.
Those few of you who don&#8217;t like it, you&#8217;ll love the game too because you&#8217;re wrong.
Item pools are not limited by Act, or Boss, or anything like that. While you&#8217;ll have a better chance to get better items in Act IV Inferno, you could get those same items in Act I, or even Hell.
Our item pool philosophy is that you can break an urn and get the best item in the game &#8211; it&#8217;s all a matter of chance. Running more difficult areas and taking on more difficult enemies will not always be the most efficient way to find upgrades.
Previously, Inferno difficulty was mlvl 61 across all of Inferno, and now it starts at mlvl 61 and ramps up quickly in Act I and ends somewhere around 65 (?) in Act IV. We&#8217;ve only increased the difficulty.
I&#8217;m aware of internal bets on how many months it will take someone to beat Inferno.
A flat Inferno of mlvl 61 had a small curb of difficulty, and once that was over you had nowhere else to progress and no reason to. That&#8217;s boredom.
Boredom doesn&#8217;t generally come from content repetition, it comes from lack of ability to progress, or ease of progression.
By having a sharp increase in difficulty in Inferno we can encourage progression without having a brick wall of difficulty.

I think that was about it. In any case, as I said, I know the vast majority of you are excited about the game, the change we made, and trying to progress in Inferno. Just don&#8217;t feel bad when you have to go back to Hell.

I like (or did depending on how D3 ends up) Blizzard, but their fanbase is turning into the Apple fanbase where they can do no wrong, which IMO is bad.

Two things to this - both my opinion, not facts. One: For me, loving something, accepting decisions from those you love/respect/like >>>>>> hating it/them due to some issues. Two: Especially when we are NOT THERE YET. If Inferno comes out and it is not fun, then it will not be fun.

But all the systems are already in place for it to be fun. So I am definitely "for" this.

 

[injurai]

The harder they make inferno, the more "optimal" everyone will attempt to make their builds.

As more and more optimal builds that are discovered and discussed, the more cookie cutter the endgame will be.

If anyone doesn't see that a harder inferno = less build diversity is fooling themselves IMO. I guarantee the first person who beats inferno and posts their build will be copied by the vast majority of the player base. Build diversity will reappear as the player base becomes more comfortable with the game (like in every game) but will still be fairly optimal.

I will caveat this by saying is if they somehow tune this so gear is the main driver in Inferno success and not player skill (i.e., the iLvL of gear stats just exponentionally shoots up to make a huge difference), then this game will indirectly at launch become the infamous "pay to win" scenario as people will buy the gear necessary to complete inferno to get their "world firsts" and what not that plagues MMOs. I would be very disappointed if success becomes heavily weighted on gear being you will be level 60 already at Inferno.

Doesn't sound too different than D2. Gear would be essential to certain builds with duping and such. The illusion of skill trees is gone so skills are more about utility than numbers. To beat inferno it will be about changing up your loadout of skills a lot. Gear will be the largest focus in terms of stats...but then again THAT IS DIABLO. Ever since D1 it has been the game that is all about the GEAR.

You would be fooling yourself to think that builds would be formulated the same way as in D2.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Quick question; I've been reading through this thread quite a bit and it seems that the beta is still pretty damn easy even after the difficulty has ramped up a bit. I know everyone is saying, "relax, it gets harder", and well thats all good and fine. But diablo 2 was definitely not easy at the beginning. By the time you were level 10 or so, you definitely had to grind a bit before moving to the next area with most characters (especially if playing alone). Is that feeling of progression gone?

I'm sure at some point there is a wall to hit, but I want to feel like I get more powerful, not less.

The difficulty from what I've seen is pretty much just the boosted damage on the Skeleton King, he hits like a truck now, particularly during one of his moves (the three hit combo).

And I'm curious to what parts of D2 Act I normal you found challenging? I had some problems with Blood Raven if I was underlevelled, then I found Andariel somewhat challenging, but everything in between? Old Tristram wasn't a thing, the Countess wasn't difficult, and neither was the Smith. You mean to tell me you had trouble with what, the Den of Evil? Bishibosh? Come on son.

 

[maabus1999]

Pay to win? As in pay to Blizzard? Or pay to who? The players who already got there? But how could you be the first to get there if there is no one "there" to farm the best gear for you? : )

Let us face it: the groups with the best gear will be those that rely on skill on handling the hardest group, therefore having better chance of clearing every champion pack they encounter, compared to those that simply try buying the best items from the AH.

The first few weeks will be so much fun to see: I will anticipate a lot of freakout posts over some people having some lucky drops and doing some farms, but in the long run, the most talented groups will have the best gear, the best skill, and the most "success" in the game.

Depending on how cynical you are about Blizzard putting up items for sale in the RMAH, secretly or overtly. But what I mean is say you HAVE to have BiS gear from act I Inferno to get to Act II (btw I really doubt and hope this isn't true, but I'm giving a scenario), BiS Gear from II to III, etc..., then you will have people who will go to the AH and get the gear they need from others who are say trying to farm Inferno and either get a drop not for their class or already have. RNG models with the ability to purchase always favor those who go out and buy.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

*cough*

*hugs*

 

[maabus1999]

Doesn't sound too different than D2. Gear would be essential to certain builds with duping and such. The illusion of skill trees is gone so skills are more about utility than numbers. To beat inferno it will be about changing up your loadout of skills a lot. Gear will be the largest focus in terms of stats...but then again THAT IS DIABLO. Ever since D1 it has been the game that is all about the GEAR.

You would be fooling yourself to think that builds would be formulated the same way as in D2.

Half true from my experience (I stopped playing around when synergies were first released). Gear just helped personalize and optimize a build, but your gear doesn't kill the mobs, your skills do True being the one skill wonder build was a valid criticism, but all the gear you farmed was usually to support that wonder skill build ( hydra sorc, WW pike barb, etc...)

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

The difficulty from what I've seen is pretty much just the boosted damage on the Skeleton King, he hits like a truck now, particularly during one of his moves (the three hit combo).

And I'm curious to what parts of D2 Act I normal you found challenging? I had some problems with Blood Raven if I was underlevelled, then I found Andariel somewhat challenging, but everything in between? Old Tristram wasn't a thing, the Countess wasn't difficult, and neither was the Smith. You mean to tell me you had trouble with what, the Den of Evil? Bishibosh? Come on son.

I wouldn't say challenging, but I would say slower. You could only take out one enemy at a time, and the enemies with more life took a few hits. It was still fairly easy, you just feel very stripped down at the beginning and have to grind a bit before moving on (as I remember).

Watching the beta footage, it just seems like you have access to better skills already, you zoom right through everything, and enemies are already dying after 1 or 2 hits, sometimes multiple at a time. Maybe its just because people are playing through the beta over and over with the same characters, I dont know.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

This is the older Blue post that's more detailed and first introduced the change - so the news has been out for a few days now:

This is may be a good a time as any to REVEAL TEH SEKRITS! that Inferno monster levels aren't linear any longer. They get progressively more difficult. This was really a reaction to Inferno playtesting. Our original intent was to have a flat difficulty level where you could go wherever you want, farm for items, and it'd be no more or less difficult than any other area in Inferno. This caused a few inherent issues for us, though:

-It just felt wrong. It didn't feel right to be progressing through the game and have it stay pretty much the same difficulty the whole time. It felt like a letdown to get to the final boss of the game and it be no more difficult than the first.

-There’s a wide variety of players out there and we wanted to make sure everybody had something to sink their teeth into. We expect that anybody with enough time and dedication will reach level 60. But the jump in difficulty to Inferno needed to be different amounts for different people. For the crazy people they need a HUGE ramp in difficulty, for a more “casual but still hardcore” audience you want an obvious but milder increase in difficulty. So for the crazy people who play non-stop they’ll hit Act I and get a challenge, but 1 month later they’ll still have something to work on (Acts II, III and IV). For the “hardcore-casual” they will reach level 60 later and not get brick walled when they reach Inferno. They can experience some “small victories” working on Act I with the dream of maybe someday reaching the later acts.

-Longevity. We know people really want goals to work towards and challenges to overcome. We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.


Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly.

Specifically, people in D2 did Diablo runs, Mephisto runs, Pindleskin runs, Pit runs, Baal runs, etc. because the loot in Diablo is extremely random. Even though the theoretical best items might come from the later Acts, well-rolled items from earlier acts will still be better. Internally we find sometimes after an intense session of brutally hard Inferno it can be really fun to cruise through Hell Act III or IV and it’s not too uncommon surprise when an upgrade drops. We expect this to carry through to Inferno difficulty where somebody who can theoretically farm Act IV will likely still enjoy romping through Act I simply because the drop potential is still there. It’s all because of the highly random items having lots of overlap in their power distribution curves.

 

[maabus1999]

The endbosses are already confirmed to not be the best loot pinata as they have less chance of dropping the best gear than the random champions do.

They back tracked on that idea quiete a bit with Neph Valor system. While in a naked game your statement is true, with a fully stacked Neph Valor character run, it no longer is.

Which is fine and makes bosses worthwhile (before not having them drop the best loot was a mistake as people would just farm the areas with the largest champion spawn chance).

 

[maabus1999]

This is the older Blue post that's more detailed and first introduced the change - so the news has been out for a few days now:

Ok from your Bash quote there was this part:

"Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly."

If this is true then my whole gear scaling scenario is out the window (which is good) for having to have BiS gear to go from each Act to Act.

So it will come down to an optimal build or two that may (or is) OP and they will beat Inferno in a week or so. That is my bet.

 

[FrontalMonk]

I wouldn't say challenging, but I would say slower. You could only take out one enemy at a time, and the enemies with more life took a few hits. It was still fairly easy, you just feel very stripped down at the beginning and have to grind a bit before moving on (as I remember).

Watching the beta footage, it just seems like you have access to better skills already, you zoom right through everything, and enemies are already dying after 1 or 2 hits, sometimes multiple at a time. Maybe its just because people are playing through the beta over and over with the same characters, I dont know.

This is a lot of it, but also keep in mind what the AH does for people. I started a barb that cuold kill a single enemy in 3-4 hits, and progression was pretty methodical, and I didn't have a lot of skills. Fast forward to level 5 or so, and I bought a cheap rare 2h axe off the AH for like 1.5k gold, I had cleave, and I killed a lot of stuff in one hit, with some of the bigger enemies taking 2-3 hits. Part of it is how you play, part of it is your gear, and part of it is your level. The Skeleton King, even with my new axe and all the gear I accumulated, still took me like 5-6 minutes of consistent combat because I was fighting him solo.

 

[injurai]

Half true from my experience (I stopped playing around when synergies were first released). Gear just helped personalize and optimize a build, but your gear doesn't kill the mobs, your skills do True being the one skill wonder build was a valid criticism, but all the gear you farmed was usually to support that wonder skill build ( hydra sorc, WW pike barb, etc...)

Having fun in Diablo was about owning face. Certain builds were near impossbile to clear hell with. I'm sure you could have a stupid build will all support spells, but I don't think you will be forced to pick only a few of the best spells to make it through. Blizzard's main focus as been on making more builds and variations viable. It's not like everyone wants to go with the same mega build. Like I said before, you will most likely be chaning your builds up all the time to deal with different mobs effectively in hell and inferno.

 

[V_Arnold]

Depending on how cynical you are about Blizzard putting up items for sale in the RMAH, secretly or overtly. But what I mean is say you HAVE to have BiS gear from act I Inferno to get to Act II (btw I really doubt and hope this isn't true, but I'm giving a scenario), BiS Gear from II to III, etc..., then you will have people who will go to the AH and get the gear they need from others who are say trying to farm Inferno and either get a drop not for their class or already have. RNG models with the ability to purchase always favor those who go out and buy.

Uhm...sorry, I do not go there. I have no intention of seeing ghosts where there are none. But if you want to dive into the game with that mindset, please, go ahead.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

This is a lot of it, but also keep in mind what the AH does for people. I started a barb that cuold kill a single enemy in 3-4 hits, and progression was pretty methodical, and I didn't have a lot of skills. Fast forward to level 5 or so, and I bought a cheap rare 2h axe off the AH for like 1.5k gold, I had cleave, and I killed a lot of stuff in one hit, with some of the bigger enemies taking 2-3 hits. Part of it is how you play, part of it is your gear, and part of it is your level. The Skeleton King, even with my new axe and all the gear I accumulated, still took me like 5-6 minutes of consistent combat because I was fighting him solo.

That alleviates a lot of concern, thank you.

 

[Fallout-NL]

But if you want to dive into the game with that mindset, please, go ahead.

Why do you keep saying that to people?

 

[FrontalMonk]

Why do you keep saying that to people?

Because they're WROOOOOOONG!

 

[V_Arnold]

Why do you keep saying that to people?

Because that is all that it boils down to.

Because they're WROOOOOOONG!

Wrong? I have no way of knowing that. What I know is that if I cannot either confirm or deny something (like Blizzard covert ops farming agents generating items for PROFITZ), I can either worry about it with no gain, and I can shrug it off and continue waiting for the launch date.

 

[injurai]

Because that is all that it boils down to.



Wrong? I have no way of knowing that. What I know is that if I cannot either confirm or deny something (like Blizzard covert ops farming agents generating items for PROFITZ), I can either worry about it with no gain, and I can shrug it off and continue waiting for the launch date.

If they ruin it for themselves then so be it. It's just like how people think that skill trees offer more diversity and choice. Sure I made my own build that is a tad different than the other guys, versus I have this completely different feeling game play experience. All my friends have played to much wow to give anything but a skill tree a fair chance, and it's getting annoying. I'm also the only one in the beta and they think all my praise is bullshit. But whatever I'll be having fun so that is all that matters.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Wrong? I have no way of knowing that. What I know is that if I cannot either confirm or deny something (like Blizzard covert ops farming agents generating items for PROFITZ), I can either worry about it with no gain, and I can shrug it off and continue waiting for the launch date.

Nah, I know. It just seems really silly for people to think that Blizzard would put items up on the RMAH when they flat out said, not only that they wouldn't, but that they showed the entire world how they plan to make money off of it. When you think about how many transactions people are going to make on the RMAH, and how on many of them (I wouldn't even say most, a lot of people will use their 'free listings' that Blizz is supplying) they get to shave a bit off the top from...it just seems silly.

That said, I don't doubt that Blizz will eventually sell their own extra stuff, but nothing that would give an advantage over another player (I'm looking at YOU, Celestial Steed).

 

[V_Arnold]

Exactly. Also, they cannot hide something that easily (as in eventually, that info will leak anyway), and it is obvious that it is not worth it. It is not a realistic goal for a developer. It is more of a realistic goal for a mid-level mafia organization on a noname poker side to do something like this, to be able to do something like this, not the developers of friggin Blizzard.

 

[maabus1999]

Uhm...sorry, I do not go there. I have no intention of seeing ghosts where there are none. But if you want to dive into the game with that mindset, please, go ahead.

I was being sarcastic with the first sentence towards your previous comment. The real response is the next several sentences (i.e., "but what I mean to say" sentence start).

You guys are really getting defensive to just theorizing too

 

[V_Arnold]

I was being sarcastic with the first sentence towards your previous comment. The real response is the next several sentences (i.e., "but what I mean to say" sentence start).

You guys are really gettin defensive

That is fine cause as you yourself say so:
"If this is true then my whole gear scaling scenario is out the window (which is good) for having to have BiS gear to go from each Act to Act.

So it will come down to an optimal build or two that may (or is) OP and they will beat Inferno in a week or so. That is my bet. "

I have nothing to add to this, except for my bet is 3 weeks on inferno. 2 if something REALLY broken is happening.

 

[DSmalls84]

So for you guys playing the beta, does the Witch Doctor play pretty similar to the Necromancer from D2? Still trying to decide what class I'm going to start with, and I really liked the Necro in D2.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Depending on how cynical you are about Blizzard putting up items for sale in the RMAH, secretly or overtly. But what I mean is say you HAVE to have BiS gear from act I Inferno to get to Act II (btw I really doubt and hope this isn't true, but I'm giving a scenario), BiS Gear from II to III, etc..., then you will have people who will go to the AH and get the gear they need from others who are say trying to farm Inferno and either get a drop not for their class or already have. RNG models with the ability to purchase always favor those who go out and buy.

I was being sarcastic with the first sentence towards your previous comment. The real response is the next several sentences (i.e., "but what I mean to say" sentence start).

You guys are really gettin defensive

I'm not getting defensive myself, I'm just having a good old fashioned argument.

regarding your claim though, I completely agree with what I bolded there. Personally I'm going to be surprised if there is "Best in Slot" gear for X class, for going through Inferno. I mean, this isn't wow, half the point is that 90% of the gear has random stats, and the Uniques? I mean sure, the gear is gonna be really good, but I think there's gonna be tradeoffs and different styles. I definitely think that my idea for a charge in, whirlwind barbarian will probably die like a bitch in Inferno, a lot. I also think that if I frontload my gear Gemwise and otherwise with health, armor, life leech, and whatnot, then I'd stand a stronger chance with that build. Maybe not the best evar, but a stronger chance. That's what I'm hoping for in D3, for all the classes to have a few different ways to tackle Inferno. And when you have different ways of taking on Inferno, you should be able to manage with the gear dropped in Hell (they did say Inferno quality stuff would drop in Hell, too) or taken off the Gold AH, or a bit of both. Will you be able to get the gear you want faster if you buy it? Of course. But I also think that you should have few problems progressing with the gear you or your friends find (My wizard found this cool 2h axe, want it? etc.)

 

[V_Arnold]

So for you guys playing the beta, does the Witch Doctor play pretty similar to the Necromancer from D2? Still trying to decide what class I'm going to start with, and I really liked the Necro in D2.

Well, it is a bit more complicated than that : D

Mostly because while you indeed have your tanking pets ready quite soon, you still deal most damage by your own spells. It really feels like it is instantly mixing Necro's curses (to a certain extent), some spells like a modified Inferno of Sorceress, an aoe slowdown and summons (which are currently more like the Druid summons so far).

It is way more active, that is for sure, to be considered a pure summoner. But it can act that way later on, if the skills work out as I imagine they do.

 

[aliencowz7]

Well, it is a bit more complicated than that : D

Mostly because while you indeed have your tanking pets ready quite soon, you still deal most damage by your own spells. It really feels like it is instantly mixing Necro's curses (to a certain extent), some spells like a modified Inferno of Sorceress, an aoe slowdown and summons (which are currently more like the Druid summons so far).

It is way more active, that is for sure, to be considered a pure summoner. But it can act that way later on, if the skills work out as I imagine they do.

There were plenty of active necro builds as well, like bone necros or poison nova necros. I would say its a necromancer with a slightly different theme really, they rolled the different necro specs into one complete character class.

 

[Mengy]

This is may be a good a time as any to REVEAL TEH SEKRITS! that Inferno monster levels aren't linear any longer. They get progressively more difficult. This was really a reaction to Inferno playtesting. Our original intent was to have a flat difficulty level where you could go wherever you want, farm for items, and it'd be no more or less difficult than any other area in Inferno. This caused a few inherent issues for us, though:

-It just felt wrong. It didn't feel right to be progressing through the game and have it stay pretty much the same difficulty the whole time. It felt like a letdown to get to the final boss of the game and it be no more difficult than the first.

-There’s a wide variety of players out there and we wanted to make sure everybody had something to sink their teeth into. We expect that anybody with enough time and dedication will reach level 60. But the jump in difficulty to Inferno needed to be different amounts for different people. For the crazy people they need a HUGE ramp in difficulty, for a more “casual but still hardcore” audience you want an obvious but milder increase in difficulty. So for the crazy people who play non-stop they’ll hit Act I and get a challenge, but 1 month later they’ll still have something to work on (Acts II, III and IV). For the “hardcore-casual” they will reach level 60 later and not get brick walled when they reach Inferno. They can experience some “small victories” working on Act I with the dream of maybe someday reaching the later acts.

-Longevity. We know people really want goals to work towards and challenges to overcome. We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.


Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly.

Specifically, people in D2 did Diablo runs, Mephisto runs, Pindleskin runs, Pit runs, Baal runs, etc. because the loot in Diablo is extremely random. Even though the theoretical best items might come from the later Acts, well-rolled items from earlier acts will still be better. Internally we find sometimes after an intense session of brutally hard Inferno it can be really fun to cruise through Hell Act III or IV and it’s not too uncommon surprise when an upgrade drops. We expect this to carry through to Inferno difficulty where somebody who can theoretically farm Act IV will likely still enjoy romping through Act I simply because the drop potential is still there. It’s all because of the highly random items having lots of overlap in their power distribution curves.

Wow, just wow. I'm so disappointed with this. They have completely backtracked from the awesome idea of what inferno was going to be and retreated back to the "safe" route of what we had before in D2.

It didn't feel right to be progressing through the game and have it stay pretty much the same difficulty the whole time. It felt like a letdown to get to the final boss of the game and it be no more difficult than the first.

Okay, but the time the player hits 60, they have already progressed through the game THREE TIMES. We didn't need to do that progression treadmill a FOURTH time. Inferno was going to be an entire difficulty dedicated to the people who ran Baal's throne room in D2 hundreds of times per week. It was supposed to be Baal's throne room spread out amongst the entire game add variety to the item hunt. Endgame isn't about progression Blizzard, it's about the item hunt!!!

But the jump in difficulty to Inferno needed to be different amounts for different people.

NO. NO IT DIDN'T!!!! You have three other difficulties to choose from for people who want a lower challenge. The whole purpose of inferno was to be a loot hunting playground for the 60 loot hunters. It wasn't created for the casuals to have a new place to go after they finish Hell.

For the crazy people they need a HUGE ramp in difficulty, for a more “casual but still hardcore” audience you want an obvious but milder increase in difficulty. So for the crazy people who play non-stop they’ll hit Act I and get a challenge, but 1 month later they’ll still have something to work on (Acts II, III and IV). For the “hardcore-casual” they will reach level 60 later and not get brick walled when they reach Inferno. They can experience some “small victories” working on Act I with the dream of maybe someday reaching the later acts.

Just like every other difficulty level in the rest of the game, inferno will start off easier and gradually get harder, to foster progression. But inferno wasn't about progression, it was about a huge version of Baal's throne room to hunt in. Why did that vision get thrown out???

Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly.

Diablo did NOT do a very good job of this, that's why people ran Baal and Pindleskin relentlessly. Their goal is to make the loot in later acts mathematically better? The original goal of inferno was to solve that issue, but now they are yet again making it happen. Hell, they are creating that very same situation on purpose! If the chances of better loot are greater in the last act, then that is YET AGAIN where everyone is going to be running to.

This is a huge disappointment to me. I can only hope that it's not as bad as it sounds, but it seems like to me they just can't let go of their tried and true formula. A better way of fostering challenge into inferno would have been to have the entire difficulty scale up with player ilevels. For example, inferno would be harder for a group of four superbly decked out players than a group of fresh 60's out of Hell. But keep the whole fucking point of inferno intact and don't have any one specific boss or areas superior to hunt in than the others.

But no, we will again be directed towards the end of Act IV to run over and over, and over, again, because it is "mathematically the best".


What a huge step backwards for the endgame....

 

[Valnen]

The whole starts at 61 and ramps up to 65 sounds WAY better IMO. I'm so glad they did this, it will make the game more challenging and thus more fun.

Inferno would have been boring if once you hit a point at which you could comfortably kill one monster, you could comfortably kill all of them.

 

[aliencowz7]

You do realize that people still ran mephisto and andariel and diablo and whatnot even in the endgame right? Ladder wipes made this all the more prevalent where people didn't have good enough gear to just have some pally with enigma tele all the way to baal. Not to mention if you need a item from a certain ilvl you can aim your hunt towards monsters that level in order to maximize your chances of finding said item.

Item hunting is progression, and people are always going to find the best place to farm for whatever it is no matter what. Even with inferno being a flat difficulty people were just going to find the quickest / easiest routes and exploit them.

 

[Boken]

There were two ways to solve the problem.

The one they chose and the open system. The open system is where players could choose any act of inferno from the start to grind for loot - with the incentive to compete them all a feat of strength for the first X and cosmetic rewards for everybody. However, this system has less longeivity and doesn't allow D3 to reach level 65 in difficulty. Theres also less item progression in this system.

So it's somewhat of a tradeoff honestly.

 

[Aeris130]

Maybe they could add another difficulty level for the people that only find the last stages of Inferno challenging, to make sure people aren't running the same piece of Inferno over and over. Where the entire game is Inferno-level challenging all the way through. They could call it Inferno or some...oh wait.

 

[IceMarker]

(snip)

In case you didn't read Bashioks latest post on the Inferno re-balance, items you can get in Act IV bosses room can be acquired at the very first section of Act I, the difference is literally just the difficulty and the amount of loot that drops which is miniscule, you can still get the best items in the game at any area in Inferno.

 

[DSmalls84]

So from the beta do any of the classes seem to be overpowered compared to the others? It seemed like every update for D2 gave a huge boost to a certain class and made them super powerful.

 

[Boken]

Maybe they could add another difficulty level for the people that only find the last stages of Inferno challenging, to make sure people aren't running the same piece of Inferno over and over. Where the entire game is Inferno-level challenging all the way through. They could call it Inferno or some...oh wait.

Honestly, this isnt too bad. Have a new difficulty level after inferno (level 67 or some shit) where you choose whichever act you want.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Honestly, this isnt too bad. Have a new difficulty level after inferno (level 67 or some shit) where you choose whichever act you want.

This sounds sorta like the "malestrom of chaos" in Path of Exile. Once you go through the 4 difficulty levels, you warp to the maelstrom and it takes you to a random section of the game...and its really fucking hard.

 

[Mengy]

Honestly, this isnt too bad. Have a new difficulty level after inferno (level 67 or some shit) where you choose whichever act you want.

That was the entire purpose of inferno difficulty in the first place. Before they made it just another level to play through,again, for the fourth time, after hell.

In case you didn't read Bashioks latest post on the Inferno re-balance, items you can get in Act IV bosses room can be acquired at the very first section of Act I, the difference is literally just the difficulty and the amount of loot that drops which is miniscule, you can still get the best items in the game at any area in Inferno.

But, they have now changed it to favor the end of inferno. Even if the difference is miniscule, it is there, and people will gravitate towards it, because they want the best chances of loot hunting while they play. They used the wrong fix to solve the "challenge" problem of inferno. It just bothers me that they had a wonderful new concept for D3 and then abandoned it to go back to what they have done before. I can only hope the difference throughout inferno is so incredibly minuscule as to barely be noticeable at all. But then why have it at all?

It's the same as them forcing rune skill progression on us. If all the rune skills are balanced to be relatively equal, then why not let us pick our own progression through them? The only reason to force everyone down the same path is because later rune skills are better than earlier ones. Which is counter to what they originally wanted the rune skills to be.

I don't know, some of the last minute changes to D3 have me worried. First the rune skill change, then no PvP at launch, now the inferno retreat. I'm not liking this trend...

 

[JohnOfMars]

This is my first Diablo game. I have two questions about the Beta if anyone would be willing to answer them:

1. Does it matter if I click too much? Or should I work on timing my clicks with attack durations?
2. If I want to quit the game, will it always reset to my last check point, even if I portal back to town & exit from town?
3. I keep giving my monk new weapons, but he never uses them in his attack animations. He always attacks barefisted. He’s getting the bonuses from the weapons, right?
4. When I beat the beta on Normal, if I replay old quests on Normal, they’ll be the same difficulty right? I.e. no auto-scale. If I want harder quests, I should up the difficulty and beat the beta again?

Thanks, guys!

 

[Boken]

That was the entire purpose of inferno difficulty in the first place. Before they made it just another level to play through,again, for the fourth time, after hell.

Inferno never had the open system design. You were supposed to go through inferno from act 1 to end. And thats where the problems flowed from primarily. Rather than opening the system, they made progression more meaningful. See what I already said about that.

 

[Valnen]

This is my first Diablo game. I have two questions about the Beta if anyone would be willing to answer them:

1. Does it matter if I click too much? Or should I work on timing my clicks with attack durations?
2. If I want to quit the game, will it always reset to my last check point, even if I portal back to town & exit from town?
3. I keep giving my monk new weapons, but he never uses them in his attack animations. He always attacks barefisted. He’s getting the bonuses from the weapons, right?
4. When I beat the beta on Normal, if I replay old quests on Normal, they’ll be the same difficulty right? I.e. no auto-scale. If I want harder quests, I should up the difficulty and beat the beta again?

Thanks, guys!

1. It's better to hold down the mouse button rather than spam your click for your basic skills. Less strain over time this way.
2. Pretty sure you always go back to your last checkpoint.
3. Yes you're getting bonuses from your weapons.
4. You can't increase the difficulty in the beta because you're not actually beating the game. You will be able to increase the difficulty when you actually beat the game in the retail version.

 

[aliencowz7]

You need to realize that the same exact issue of people running the same crap over and over would have still happened with the original inferno plan, all the while hampering alot of peoples enjoyment due to never having any increase in difficulty. It really was never a very good plan of action and the way they are steering it now makes far more sense.

People will ALWAYS find the easiest and most lucrative way of playing, it's inevitable. And quite frankly i would rather be forced to go back to doing constant baal runs then finding the easiest and quickest possible path between two points for item farming to its fullest.

 

[FrontalMonk]

This is my first Diablo game. I have two questions about the Beta if anyone would be willing to answer them:

1. Does it matter if I click too much? Or should I work on timing my clicks with attack durations?
2. If I want to quit the game, will it always reset to my last check point, even if I portal back to town & exit from town?
3. I keep giving my monk new weapons, but he never uses them in his attack animations. He always attacks barefisted. He&#8217;s getting the bonuses from the weapons, right?
4. When I beat the beta on Normal, if I replay old quests on Normal, they&#8217;ll be the same difficulty right? I.e. no auto-scale. If I want harder quests, I should up the difficulty and beat the beta again?

Thanks, guys!

1) nope! click away. or click the mouse on your target and hold. either way works, but more clicks = more fun.

2) You'll show up in town no matter where you logged out. (Edit: Your quest progress should still be there, but you should still be logged back in at the town. So if you're on "Reign of the Black King", you'll be in town when you log in, then you just take the waypoint to the Cathedral or whatnot)

3) Yes. You get bonuses from the weapons, but the animations aren't there for the staff. It's the one thing I really dislike about the monk class.

4) the beta only has one difficulty, but to answer your question, yes, normal is normal. If you go back through the first areas with your level 12 dude, you will one shot everything there.

 

[theMrCravens]

But, they have now changed it to favor the end of inferno. Even if the difference is miniscule, it is there, and people will gravitate towards it, because they want the best chances of loot hunting while they play. They used the wrong fix to solve the "challenge" problem of inferno. It just bothers me that they had a wonderful new concept for D3 and then abandoned it to go back to what they have done before. I can only hope the difference throughout inferno is so incredibly minuscule as to barely be noticeable at all. But then why have it at all?

They did months of internal testing with the endgame you had in mind.
The change was probably for the best.

It might sound good on paper, but they're the ones testing it, and if it's flawed, makes sense to change it before release.

 

[Mengy]

And quite frankly i would rather be forced to go back to doing constant baal runs then finding the easiest and quickest possible path between two points for item farming to its fullest.

See that's just it, I don't want to do the endless Baal runs again. That was so incredibly boring. Inferno sounded like a dream solution to that problem. I used to go around the different acts of hell and kill other bosses just for variety, even though I knew I would be vendoring all of the loot I'd find. Hell, my favorite thing to do in D2 was run the jungle in nightmare up to the council to find grand charms to reroll. Not really because I found it fun, but just because it was something different than Baal's throne room! I just wanted variety. But every multiplayer game I'd join was just another rush to the throne room and then after he died all seven players would instantly quit out and do it again. I really just don't want that again. And I truly hope that inferno does not become that again, even if Blizzard does tune it to that very effect.