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[bobs...onGaf]

Another thing: there was discussion in the GI thread about the graphic prowess of the Halo games. Frankie said in the other thread that the game runs at native 720p, but that leaves me asking: Is that coming at a price? Because if the choice came down to the game meeting some sort of pixel threshold and bigger, more intricate encounters, I'd take the latter over the former any day. I'm replaying Tip of the Spear right now, and the game's framerate dropped in the second AA gun encounter, and there weren't that many enemies on screen. At the very least, that many enemies on screen would not have caused Halo 3 to slow down. Now, I'm not an engineer, so the framerate drop could've been caused by something other than having so much happening on screen at once, but I'm worried nonetheless.

I think its fair to say that the better the graphical detail, the harder it is to show as many things on screen at once, Bungie had it right, graphics are meh, but visually everything still looked interesting, but gameplay was king.

Hopefully 343 arent going to try and simply cater for the people who play games to look at graphics. Unfortunately its easier to judge a game on graphics than gameplay, and so 343 are in a no win situation there.

 

[CyReN]

Naded gets busted.

 

[Retro]

*Brofist.
Dat ODST vibe. Plus dat backdrop. The first time in the game you realise you are actually fucked.

See, that should have been obvious from the get go, not eight missions in. I forget who did it (pretty sure if was a GAFer), but somebody put together a new intro for Reach that made it very clear you were fucked before your boots every touched the ground. They also cut out Winter Contingency, if I remember correctly.

In my mind, I expected Reach to open like Aliens (and the rain-soaked search for survivors certainly helps); a small squad goes in on a routine mission and all hell breaks loose. From the second you see Covenant on Reach, it should be non-stop chaos and destruction. WC went on too long and levels like Nightfall (which felt tacked on, almost like "we need to add a T&R-esque sniper/canyon mission in because that's what everyone expects") threw off the pacing. The game took too long showing you Reach was under attack when we all knew (or should have known) from the second we started how bad things were gonna get.

I don't have time to sit and rework the story, but even keeping that intact there's things that could have been done to kick players in the teeth right away;

Keep Winter Contingency, but make it about half as long. When you first start, you've spotted the troopers' dropship, crashed into the Relay structure, and drop behind a farm to give you a safe approach (so you can still have that bit of dialogue with the farmers). When you clear the farm and reach the relay, you step into the aftermath of a battle; wreckage and bodies everywhere, but no hints at who or what caused it. Because the dropship crashed into the relay, you assume that's why there's no communication. The wreckage has also blocked the front door of the structure, so Kat directs you to an outlying maintenance building that connects to the Relay via tunnels. Once you get down there, it's all interiors and a few small courtyards for the rest of the level and the Covenant comes on quick and strong, dropping in from above.

Remember that Halsey's friend was working on some kind of Forerunner info, so the Relay interior could be expanded to house a secret ONI data processing center. You'd get through the usual communications equipment, round a corner, and find yourself in lab with clean rooms, huge super-cooled rooms filled with computer, a huge, super-cooled room with mainframes. Not only does this give you a reason and an excuse to have a larger interior, but it makes it a little more apparent why the Covenant strike team was there (to get the Forerunner data) and why they attack it so heavily afterwords; the datapad you find contains all the information, which would have been wiped from the mainframes as soon as they saw Covenant forces. And they obviously want it back.

When you finally get to the Relay control room (I picture it looking like a Flight Control tower), Carter says something like "Kat, we need the relay up, we need to inform Holland now", Jorge or Emile points out the window and says "I think he already knows, sir" and you see just a shitload of Covenant Corvettes dropping out of orbit and they're already laying waste to shit.

Basically, put emphasis on the interior of the relay instead of a half-dozen rinky-dink farms. I know they were trying to build up tension, but that was pointless from the start because we already knew what was coming. I know Halo is also all about large outdoor areas, but there would have been plenty of that to come (and remember, Halo CE started with the PoA interior to make getting around easier).

Meh, just my two cents.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I think its fair to say that the better the graphical detail, the harder it is to show as many things on screen at once, Bungie had it right, graphics are meh, but visually everything still looked interesting, but gameplay was king.

Hopefully 343 arent going to try and simply cater for the people who play games to look at graphics. Unfortunately its easier to judge a game on graphics than gameplay, and so 343 are in a no win situation there.

Agreed. Except for Combat Evolved, Halo has never had the best graphics of its time, but the visual style is exceptional. If you'd asked me in 1998 if an alien race that runs around in purple and pink vehicles could be threatening, I'd have laughed.

See, that should have been obvious from the get go, not eight missions in. I forget who did it (pretty sure if was a GAFer), but somebody put together a new intro for Reach that made it very clear you were fucked before your boots every touched the ground. They also cut out Winter Contingency, if I remember correctly.

In my mind, I expected Reach to open like Aliens (and the rain-soaked search for survivors certainly helps); a small squad goes in on a routine mission and all hell breaks loose. From the second you see Covenant on Reach, it should be non-stop chaos and destruction. WC went on too long and levels like Nightfall (which felt like "We need to add a T&R-esque sniper/canyon mission in") threw off the pacing. The game took too long showing you Reach was under attack when we all knew (or should have known) from the second we started how bad things were gonna get.

I don't have time to sit and rework the story, but even keeping that intact there's things that could have been done to kick players in the teeth right away;

Keep Winter Contingency, but make it about half as long. When you first start, you've spotted the troopers' dropship, crashed into the Relay structure, and drop behind a farm to give you a safe approach (so you can still have that bit of dialogue with the farmers). When you clear the farm and reach the relay, you step into the aftermath of a battle; wreckage and bodies everywhere, but no hints at who caused it. Because the dropship crashed into the relay, you assume that's why there's no communication. The wreckage has also blocked the front door of the structure, so Kat directs you to an outlying maintenance building that connects to the Relay via tunnels. Once you get down there, it's all interiors and a few small courtyards for the rest of the level and the Covenant comes on quick, dropping in from above.

Remember that Halsey's friend was working on some kind of Forerunner info, so the Relay interior could be expanded to house a secret ONI data processing center. You'd get through the usual communications equipment, round a corner, and find yourself in lab with clean rooms, huge super-cooled rooms filled with computer, a huge, super-cooled room with mainframes. Not only does this give you a reason to have a larger interior, but it makes it a little more apparent why the Covenant strike team was there (to get the Forerunner data) and why they attack it so heavily afterwords (the datapad you find contains all the information, which would have been wiped from the mainframes as soon as they saw the Covenant, and they obviously want it back).

When you finally get to the Relay control room (I picture it looking like a Flight Control tower), Carter says something like "Kat, we need the relay up, we need to inform Holland now", and Jorge or Emile points out the window and says "I think he already knows, sir" and you see just a shitload of Covenant Corvettes dropping out of orbit.

Basically, put emphasis on the interior of the relay instead of a half-dozen rinky-dink farms. I know they were trying to build up tension, but that was pointless from the start because we already knew what was coming. I know Halo is also all about large outdoor areas, but there would have been plenty of that to come (and remember, Halo CE started with the PoA interior to make getting around easier).

Meh, just my two cents.

Mostly agreed. This is where I shake my head and ask "you retconned the entire battle of Reach... why?" I think we still could have gotten the same tragic loss and characterization (or perhaps even made it better) by having it take place over a day or two at most with non-stop, unrelenting Covenant assault. You could have even kept the "yay, we neutralized the Covenant strike force and oh crap here comes the biggest fleet ever" moment and people would have bought it much more than "Actually, Reach has been under attack for a month and no one on the other side of the planet seems to have noticed" tack.

 

[Hydranockz]

Naded gets busted.

:lol Brilliant.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I replayed New Alexandria yesterday. Still a good mission. My favorite of the campaign.

I love how unique the mission is. I find I have a lot of fun just flying around shooting stuff, exploring the outside of buildings, chasing Phantoms down. The atmosphere, scale and satisfying shattering the Banshees do when toasted make time fly (ha); I often find I've blown a half hour between objectives without realizing it. My favorite mission in Reach is still ONI, but New Alexandria is the most unique in the series.

I still want a level or a majority of a level where all we do is explore and not shoot anything in the vain of metroid prime.

I would like to see the approach Reach took to the first mission, only expanded upon significantly. How neat would it be to not encounter any enemies for the first half of the first mission, as we explore the crash site and surrounding area, getting our bearings.

I love that in the GI thread people have to post their collection of Halo Swag if they have negative things to say hahah. What the hell has been going on over there!?

And that's before media or details on the game have come out; we've just had the cover shown so far. That thread has exceeded my hopes by a fair margin and it's just getting warmed up. Dark, hilarious times are ahead.

See, that should have been obvious from the get go, not eight missions in. I forget who did it (pretty sure if was a GAFer), but somebody put together a new intro for Reach that made it very clear you were fucked before your boots every touched the ground. They also cut out Winter Contingency, if I remember correctly.

*snip*

A good approach. I will never understand how, after the fall of Reach has been described as the largest battle of the war, on Earth's doorstep and at our largest military installation, the invasion was both subdued and downplayed ("Cheer up big man, this whole valley just became a free-fire zone." I think the two missions to really sell the invasion were Exodus and New Alexandria. Exodus showcased the desperate struggle to save as many people as possible as possible and really reinforced how desperate the situation was; the odds were overwhelming and hopeless. And New Alexandria showed the aftermath and totality of the invasion. But those missions should have been fairly early on in the campaign, with increasingly desperate measures taken as things fell apart. Imagine if Long Night of Solace came after the full invasion force was in place; instead of a laid back, isolated space fight, it would have been in the midst of the orbital bombardment and maelstrom above the planet.

Reach's story telling is the most baffling in the series.

 

[Retro]

I think we still could have gotten the same tragic loss and characterization (or perhaps even made it better) by having it take place over a day or two at most with non-stop, unrelenting Covenant assault. You could have even kept the "yay, we neutralized the Covenant strike force and oh crap here comes the biggest fleet ever" moment and people would have bought it much more than "Actually, Reach has been under attack for a month and no one on the other side of the planet seems to have noticed" tack.

Exactly, the Covenant takes it's sweet ass time invading Reach, from the minute you encounter the Strike team (July 24th) until they start glassing New Alexandria (August 23rd) is almost a month. I had to check multiple sources to make sure that was right because it sounds completely fucked up and makes the Covenant sound kinda lazy.

I say, from the second you encounter the strike team, the Covenant just doesn't stop. Ever. You have the data they want, so a shitload of them swarm your location. You finally get the communication's hub back online and it doesn't matter; Reach is already under attack because their cover is blown and they're cutting their losses. From that second on you're just trying to slow them down, get as many people out alive and as much military hardware secure as possible before the glassing begins. And you don't have long.

Nightfall in general was the biggest misstep in the game in my mind, both in terms of plot and pace. The Covenant knew what was there and had time to prepare, but they didn't need to set up ground forces. They should have blackened out the sun with ships and started wiping humanity off the face of the planet before the sun set on July 24th.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Wu, is it normal that I can't find my posts on HBO when they're older than a year? I used the search function and it only shows 2 posts I made. Pretty weird.

 

[NOKYARD]

Like the Mona Lisa, her eyes are saying Metastability, yet her boobs are saying second stage Rampancy.

 

[The Librarian]

I would like to see the approach Reach took to the first mission, only expanded upon significantly. How neat would it be to not encounter any enemies for the first half of the first mission, as we explore the crash site and surrounding area, getting our bearings.

That would be amazing.

 

[Gazzawa]

Nightfall in general was the biggest misstep in the game in my mind, both in terms of plot and pace. The Covenant knew what was there and had time to prepare, but they didn't need to set up ground forces. They should have blackened out the sun with ships and started wiping humanity off the face of the planet before the sun set on July 24th.

Right. Tried to recreate the Truth and Reconciliation vibe but the sense of 'going somewhere you've never been before' was lost.

 

[Hydranockz]

Right. Tried to recreate the Truth and Reconciliation vibe but the sense of 'going somewhere you've never been before' was lost.

Some kind of... big.. pylon.

 

[shinobi602]

Wait, I was just reading the Halo Wikia and they said Chief and Cortana went back to Reach after commandeering the Ascendant Justice Covenant ship and rescued Dr.Halsey and Spartan Blue team.

Where are they now?

 

[Gazzawa]

Some kind of... big.. pylon.

Ima kill me a native species today

 

[Trey]

Wait, I was just reading the Halo Wikia and they said Chief and Cortana went back to Reach after commandeering the Ascendant Justice Covenant ship and rescued Dr.Halsey and Spartan Blue team.

Where are they now?

They came back, got the surviving Spartans, and attacked the Unyielding Heirophant, which was a Covenant station that was supposed to have a Prophet. They ended up just blowing the place because they found out that the Covenant were heading for Earth.

Then they stayed on Earth, and Halo 2 started.

First Strike.

 

[Der Flatulator]

Some kind of... big.. pylon.

Heavily fortified? Could be the source of our dark zone.

 

[squidhands]

Reach's story telling is the most baffling in the series.

I want to believe that it's because Bungie had to cut things that just screwed up the narrative, because the writing as it stands in Reach is beyond piss-poor. Retro has it right; once the strike team was found and killed, the Covenant should have rightly assumed that the mission went south and started the full-scale invasion (as an aggressive, fanatical group of religious nuts would have most certainly done).


Don't let me down, 343.

 

[The Librarian]

Nightfall in general was the biggest misstep in the game in my mind, both in terms of plot and pace. The Covenant knew what was there and had time to prepare, but they didn't need to set up ground forces. They should have blackened out the sun with ships and started wiping humanity off the face of the planet before the sun set on July 24th.

The Covenant invaded on August 30th, thank you.

 

[shinobi602]

They came back, got the surviving Spartans, and attacked the Unyielding Heirophant, which was a Covenant station that was supposed to have a Prophet. They ended up just blowing the place because they found out that the Covenant were heading for Earth.

Then they stayed on Earth, and Halo 2 started.

First Strike.

So theoretically we could see Dr.Halsey and other Spartans in this new trilogy?

 

[Trey]

So theoretically we could see Dr.Halsey and other Spartans in this new trilogy?

Read Ghost of Onyx and Glasslands.

But

Spoiler

yes, more than likely.

 

[Captain Blood]

And that's before media or details on the game have come out; we've just had the cover shown so far. That thread has exceeded my hopes by a fair margin and it's just getting warmed up. Dark, hilarious times are ahead.

I am legitimately excited about it! haha

 

[shinobi602]

Read Ghost of Onyx and Glasslands.

I don't have time to read whole novels nowadays man. Can't ya just summarize them ?

I'll just read the wikis.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

All the talk about Idra quitting made me remember that Reach highlight of that dude in the middle of getting assassinated, which would have lost his team the game. So he quit out and his team finished up the would be assassin for the turnaround win. Anyone have a link to that clip anymore?

 

[Sanjuro]

Any PAX teams forming this year? Had a blast last year with you guys.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Wu, is it normal that I can't find my posts on HBO when they're older than a year? I used the search function and it only shows 2 posts I made. Pretty weird.

Are you doing the archive search? http://library.bungie.org/

I don't have time to read whole novels nowadays man. Can't ya just summarize them ?

I'll just read the wikis.

Spoiler

Halsey has a conscience attack, abducts a Spartan and plots to get the rest to Onyx, which is actually a shield world hidden in slipspace to hide from the Halo Effect. They spend a few weeks exploring the unimaginably vast space before they get pulled back out--a few months have passed in the real world, humanity is tenuously at peace with the Elites though ONI is secretly supplying some renegade Elites who want to overthrow the Arbiter. Halsey is publicly demonized and secreted away on another possible Halo ring.

 

[Retro]

A good approach.

Thanks man, that means a lot coming from you. I know that I usually just post in this thread to spout crappy ideas or comment on the attractiveness of various personalities (lol). Nice to know it's tolerated a little, probably because you guys know where I'm coming from.

I think the two missions to really sell the invasion were Exodus and New Alexandria. . . . But those missions should have been fairly early on in the campaign, with increasingly desperate measures taken as things fell apart. Imagine if Long Night of Solace came after the full invasion force was in place; instead of a laid back, isolated space fight, it would have been in the midst of the orbital bombardment and maelstrom above the planet.

I can't spend all day re-writing Reach (and I know that if I start, I'll do exactly that), but I would have bumped those two missions up to maybe the third or fourth level.

I'd have had the second level start right after the first; you look out of the control room and see the Covenant Fleet dropping into the atmosphere, then Kat shouts that a Corvette is closing and preparing to bombard the facility (cutting their losses rather than letting you escape with the data). You escape from the Relay outpost and the second level begins; getting out of the Visegrád region alive. This is where you could have vehicles, link up with small groups of UNSC forces, etc.

Include some of the Militia support and Sniper sections from Nightfall, some of the elements from Tip of the Spear (getting the AA guns up especially), but always always always keep pressure on the player to feel like they need to be moving. I'm not suggesting a wall of Covenant chase you through the level, but you should be able to look up and see more ship than sky and constantly under fire from drop shops and banshees.

Have a bad-ass Terminator-esque portion where banshees are swooping in and you're riding the back of a Warthog to drive them off so civilian convoys can get away. Hop in a Hornet and lay down covering fire while families flee in terror. It's a great opportunity to show civilians in their rusted-out trucks trying to load up their belongings and flee, lots of merciless Covenant just ripping them apart, etc. And it's kind of messed up too because all of these people are evacuating, but the entire planet is under siege. You see a bunch of bodies in New Alexandria but the scale of devastation was just severely underplayed in Reach.

LNoS's space battle felt like another speed bump. It was neat, but it didn't really serve any purpose. If it had been more of an insane dogfight against insane odds (thinking Return of the Jedi-level here), with you trying to distract or just slow down the Covenant to buy time for evacuations or to try and take out sensitive targets, that'd have been great.

Also, I know it's lame fan-service, but Master Chief was active during the Fall of Reach, defending Orbital Defense Generators and destroying sensitive ONI data (most notably the UNSC Circumference). Having you hop into a Sabre and help on that mission would have been cool.

That would be amazing.

Yep. I keep going back to Aliens; you drop out of the sky, hit the ground running and sweep through a wet and windy exterior before hacking a door and pushing inside. Aliens doesn't throw the enemy at you as quickly as I would though.

In my little write up, you cross a farm, check out the crash site and then head for a remote entrance to the outpost. No enemies at all until you stumble upon the Strike team, which would be inside the ONI lab. I picture that being about a third of a way through the level.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

You know I finished Halo 2 Vista again last night and I still maintain that it's my favorite design wise. Halo 3 and beyond everything Covenant got a bright sheen to it. I prefered the duller look to them in Halo & Halo 2. I even liked Halo 2's Brutes more design wise. They fit the name better then Halo 3. In Halo 3 they just didn't seem brutish enough.

 

[Trey]

I don't have time to read whole novels nowadays man. Can't ya just summarize them ?

I'll just read the wikis.

Shame, because they're integral to the plot and one of them is a rather decent read (Ghost of Onyx, Glasslands is a take it or leave it kind of novel).

Spoilers of both books for the (probably zero) people who care:

GoO

Spoiler

has Blue team and Halsey wind up on a Forerunner shield world where they end up in a Dyson Spere that departs them from normal time and space.

Glasslands

Spoiler

picks up right after GoO where Halsey and Blue Team + some Spartan IIIs find a way out of the Dyson Spere through the help of some native Engineers. Halsey is arrested by Paragonsky of ONI for war crimes, and is exiled away on a stealth prowler and declared officially dead. Spartan 4s were revealed (and they're probably under ONIs leash, so it stands to reason there may be Spartan-on-Spartan conflict in H4 (multiplayer?), and that Halsey will play a role) as well as a Human-Forerunner ONI captial ship.

This is up-to-date. The Thursday War is a direct sequel to Glasslands and will probably pick up Halsey's story from there.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Thanks man, that means a lot coming from you. I know that I usually just post in this thread to spout crappy ideas or comment on the attractiveness of various personalities (lol). Nice to know it's tolerated a little, probably because you guys know where I'm coming from.



I can't spend all day re-writing Reach (and I know that if I start, I'll do exactly that), but I would have bumped those two missions up to maybe the third or fourth level.

I'd have had the second level start right after the first; you look out of the control room and see the Covenant Fleet dropping into the atmosphere, then Kat shouts that a Corvette is closing and preparing to bombard the facility (cutting their losses rather than letting you escape with the data). You escape from the Relay outpost and the second level begins; getting out of the Visegrád region alive. This is where you could have vehicles, link up with small groups of UNSC forces, etc.

Include some of the Militia support and Sniper sections from Nightfall, some of the elements from Tip of the Spear (getting the AA guns up especially), but always always always keep pressure on the player to feel like they need to be moving. I'm not suggesting a wall of Covenant chase you through the level, but you should be able to look up and see more ship than sky and constantly under fire from drop shops and banshees.

Have a bad-ass Terminator-esque portion where banshees are swooping in and you're riding the back of a Warthog to drive them off so civilian convoys can get away. Hop in a Hornet and lay down covering fire while families flee in terror. It's a great opportunity to show civilians in their rusted-out trucks trying to load up their belongings and flee, lots of merciless Covenant just ripping them apart, etc. You see a bunch of bodies in New Alexandria but the scale of devastation was just severely underplayed in Reach. And it's kind of bittersweet too because all of these people are evacuating, but the entire planet is under siege.

LNoS's space battle felt like another speed bump. It was neat, but it didn't really serve any purpose. If it had been more of an insane dogfight against insane odds (thinking Return of the Jedi-level here), with you trying to distract or just slow down the Covenant to buy time for evacuations or to try and take out sensitive targets, that'd have been great.

Also, I know it's lame fan-service, but Master Chief was active during the Fall of Reach, defending Orbital Defense Generators and destroying sensitive ONI data (most notably the UNSC Circumference). Having you hop into a Sabre and help on that mission would have been cool.



Yep. I keep going back to Aliens; you drop out of the sky, hit the ground running and sweep through a wet and windy exterior before hacking a door and pushing inside. Aliens doesn't throw the enemy at you as quickly as I would though.

In my little write up, you cross a farm, check out the crash site and then head for a remote entrance to the outpost. No enemies at all until you stumble upon the Strike team, which would be inside the ONI lab. I picture that being about a third of a way through the level.

Someone has already rewritten Reach, but they stayed fairly close to the original concept and just shortened the timeframe. At the very least I would have liked that, but I definitely like your idea as well. Having the missions link together fairly seamlessy would be great, and some more time with civilians would have been nice.

I thought the civvies were a missed opportunity as we saw them. I wanted to walk into a house and see a stubborn guy refusing to leave his homestead and trying to fight Jackals off with a shovel. I wanted to see crying kids and scattered bands of characters leaving the zones you enter into to fight off the Covies.

Perhaps a lot of the tech isn't there yet for the true scale of The Fall of Reach's portrayal of the battle for Reach, but it just felt like they didn't even try for that. They got focused on this "Magnificent Seven" vibe and focused on that, even though it was actually somewhat inappropriate for the type of story they told.

I do think Bungie should get props for their skybox work, however, that dwarfed the distant "Storm" encounters of Halo 3 and really made me feel like I was just part of a larger effort. They just needed to keep the pressure on.

You know I finished Halo 2 Vista again last night and I still maintain that it's my favorite design wise. Halo 3 and beyond everything Covenant got a bright sheen to it. I prefered the duller look to them in Halo & Halo 2. I even liked Halo 2's Brutes more design wise. They fit the name better then Halo 3. In Halo 3 they just didn't seem brutish enough.

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I just prefer the sheen of Halo 3. My biggest gripe with Halo 2 is the environment design is great like the other games, but the actual level design is usually painfully linear. I couldn't really put my finger on what I found wrong with the campaign until Wu said (here or on HBO) that Halo 2 was constantly showing you vistas you couldn't actually reach, and I think that's the ultimate issue.

Despite the cliffhanger, storywise it's the best attempt in Bungie's series, although Combat Evolved and ODST were I think more successful in their more limited story goals.

 

[shinobi602]

Oh wow.

This new trilogy could be a real treat! Looking forward to it.

 

[daedalius]

I agree that the pacing and storytelling elements in Reach are quite... off kilter at times.

I'm pretty sure the Covenant can invade and glass a planet in less than a week; why did Reach take a month?

I know we had all the data drops attempting to explain what happened, but most of that really just seems like retcons to try and make Halo:Reach make sense and sort of slot into The Fall of Reach.

A balls to the wall invasion where you were just trying to survive and get as many people out as possible with the Covenant constantly breathing down your neck would have been much better.

While I will say the Reaper invasion in ME3 is done well visually, it makes no sense to me contextually. Big stompy robots lasering things... not exactly what I imagine reapers ever being. Just tells me we should have seen more corvettes floating above in Reach glassing everything, and more Scarabs; dat new generation, we needs it.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I agree that the pacing and storytelling elements in Reach are quite... off kilter at times.

I'm pretty sure the Covenant can invade and glass a planet in less than a week; why did Reach take a month?

I know we had all the data drops attempting to explain what happened, but most of that really just seems like retcons to try and make Halo:Reach make sense and sort of slot into The Fall of Reach.

A balls to the wall invasion where you were just trying to survive and get as many people out as possible with the Covenant constantly breathing down your neck would have been much better.

I was listening to the Reach legendary commentary today and was irked that Lehto, Marty and the story lead brought up the timeline discrepancy... and then just hand-waved it away. There's never been a straight response to why they changed Nylund's story so drastically besides some generalities pitched to them from the media (by people who I don't think actually understand the depth of the changes themselves.)

 

[Arnie]

Wait, did we know that the AR in Halo 4 would be going back to the pre-Reach design? I wasn't aware, but I just checked the Game Informer Halo 4 hub and it appears so. I wasn't overly fond of the Reach design so I'm not too bothered, and consistency with the mainline Halo games is probably for the best.

And anyway, I won't use the weapon much either way.

 

[Retro]

Retro has it right; once the strike team was found and killed, the Covenant should have rightly assumed that the mission went south and started the full-scale invasion (as an aggressive, fanatical group of religious nuts would have most certainly done).

Yup, I can see it so clearly and hear the dialogue in my head; you get to the Command Center of the Relay at sunset, with harsh orange light pouring through the shuttered windows. Carter and Kat start hammering away at the terminals to get the system back online, and Emile strolls to look out the window. And he just says "I think he already knows" as the Covenant ships just blot out the sun and darken the room.

Also, you quoted Ghal but attributed it to me.

The Covenant invaded on August 30th, thank you.

Yeah, but that's what I'm getting at. Winter Contingency is late July, but the major invasion (Exodus and New Alexandria) are in August. It's like the Covenant wasn't in any rush to wipe out humanity's largest military installation, almost leisurely.

At the very least I would have liked that, but I definitely like your idea as well. Having the missions link together fairly seamlessy would be great, and some more time with civilians would have been nice.

Thanks. And yeah, maybe it was a ratings thing or something, but I think the impact of what was really happening on Reach would have been felt if there had been some pretty messed up death scenes. Remember stepping into the barracks in the Crow's Nest in Halo 3 and the brutes are playing with the marines as they kill them? That was gut-wrenching.

 

[The Librarian]

Wait, did we know that the AR in Halo 4 would be going back to the pre-Reach design? I wasn't aware, but I just checked the Game Informer Halo 4 hub and it appears so. I wasn't overly fond of the Reach design so I'm not too bothered, and consistency with the mainline Halo games is probably for the best.

And anyway, I won't use the weapon much either way.

FAMOUS LAST WORDS

 

[Trey]

I'm pretty sure the Covenant can invade and glass a planet in less than a week; why did Reach take a month?

First Strike.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

I agree that the pacing and storytelling elements in Reach are quite... off kilter at times.

I'm pretty sure the Covenant can invade and glass a planet in less than a week; why did Reach take a month?

I know we had all the data drops attempting to explain what happened, but most of that really just seems like retcons to try and make Halo:Reach make sense and sort of slot into The Fall of Reach.

A balls to the wall invasion where you were just trying to survive and get as many people out as possible with the Covenant constantly breathing down your neck would have been much better.

While I will say the Reaper invasion in ME3 is done well visually, it makes no sense to me contextually. Big stompy robots lasering things... not exactly what I imagine reapers ever being. Just tells me we should have seen more corvettes floating above in Reach glassing everything, and more Scarabs; dat new generation, we needs it.

I think that would have been intense and really fun. In combat evolved, the gameplay was the story, more or less. Or at least the game let you act out the story as opposed to pushing you down very specific paths, which is how Reach felt to me. The Reach story felt forced and gameplay was confined to having your Noble teammates stuck to your side. It really detracted from the game for me.

 

[Overdoziz]

Wait, did we know that the AR in Halo 4 would be going back to the pre-Reach design? I wasn't aware, but I just checked the Game Informer Halo 4 hub and it appears so. I wasn't overly fond of the Reach design so I'm not too bothered, and consistency with the mainline Halo games is probably for the best.

And anyway, I won't use the weapon much either way.

I wish the AR went back to the Halo 2 design.

 

[Trey]

I wish the AR went back to the Halo 2 design.

I know what you tried to do here, but practically that would be the SMG, and nobody wants that back.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I know what you tried to do here, but practically that would be the SMG, and nobody wants that back.

I'd take the ODST scoped and silenced SMG back in a heartbeat, but I love my AR too. Sure, it might have issues in competitive play, but it's a damn satisfying weapon. I'll love it even more if they keep the H3 design but give it a less-plastic surface treatment.

 

[Retro]

I'm pretty sure the Covenant can invade and glass a planet in less than a week; why did Reach take a month?

You know, I think the biggest reason it feels off is because in Halo 2, a small number of ships (Fifteen capital ships) was able to take out Earth's defenses and touch down on the surface in a few hours. But a much larger fleet (according to Halo 2, "The fleet that destroyed Reach was fifty times this size") takes a month to take out Reach when they had the element of surprise? It just doesn't jive.

The Reach story felt forced and gameplay was confined to having your Noble teammates stuck to your side. It really detracted from the game for me.

That really goes back to the storytelling of the game; it didn't drive home the point that everyone and everything you see, including yourself, is going to be glassed before the story ends. Instead of the weird sniper-gets-Kat scene, she should have died off-scene, in battle. And all you hear is "Sir... we lost Kat" and that's it. Jorge's sacrifice was pretty good though.

I know what you tried to do here, but practically that would be the SMG, and nobody wants that back.

Depends on which SMG. I'd love to see the ODST S-SMG back, even as the main Starting Weapon (with Pistol sidearm). 2x zoom and rideup > 3x zoom and bloom.

I'd take the ODST scoped and silenced SMG back in a heartbeat

Awww, yeah, Fuchsdh knows what's up.

For shits and gigs, here's my personal preferences for Halo 4's weapon sandbox again. I think the last time I posted it was pre-banning;

 

[daedalius]

First Strike.

Isn't First Strike after the Fall of Reach?

Jorge = best death (although who knows he might be floating on the other side of the galaxy into a Forerunner installation too )

I wonder how much of the epic scale of the invasion was toned down because of technical limitations vs design? Surely it doesn't cost many resources to have corvettes in the sky raining down death everywhere you go? ala highlands.

 

[TheOddOne]

I can't spend all day re-writing Reach (and I know that if I start, I'll do exactly that), but I would have bumped those two missions up to maybe the third or fourth level.

I'd have had the second level start right after the first; you look out of the control room and see the Covenant Fleet dropping into the atmosphere, then Kat shouts that a Corvette is closing and preparing to bombard the facility (cutting their losses rather than letting you escape with the data). You escape from the Relay outpost and the second level begins; getting out of the Visegrád region alive. This is where you could have vehicles, link up with small groups of UNSC forces, etc.

Include some of the Militia support and Sniper sections from Nightfall, some of the elements from Tip of the Spear (getting the AA guns up especially), but always always always keep pressure on the player to feel like they need to be moving. I'm not suggesting a wall of Covenant chase you through the level, but you should be able to look up and see more ship than sky and constantly under fire from drop shops and banshees.

Have a bad-ass Terminator-esque portion where banshees are swooping in and you're riding the back of a Warthog to drive them off so civilian convoys can get away. Hop in a Hornet and lay down covering fire while families flee in terror. It's a great opportunity to show civilians in their rusted-out trucks trying to load up their belongings and flee, lots of merciless Covenant just ripping them apart, etc. And it's kind of messed up too because all of these people are evacuating, but the entire planet is under siege. You see a bunch of bodies in New Alexandria but the scale of devastation was just severely underplayed in Reach.

LNoS's space battle felt like another speed bump. It was neat, but it didn't really serve any purpose. If it had been more of an insane dogfight against insane odds (thinking Return of the Jedi-level here), with you trying to distract or just slow down the Covenant to buy time for evacuations or to try and take out sensitive targets, that'd have been great.

Also, I know it's lame fan-service, but Master Chief was active during the Fall of Reach, defending Orbital Defense Generators and destroying sensitive ONI data (most notably the UNSC Circumference). Having you hop into a Sabre and help on that mission would have been cool.

Man, you just know how to tug at my heartstrings

Expected nothing less from you Retro, your post about Halo 4 ideas was also fantastic.

 

[Overdoziz]

I'd take the ODST scoped and silenced SMG back in a heartbeat, but I love my AR too. Sure, it might have issues in competitive play, but it's a damn satisfying weapon. I'll love it even more if they keep the H3 design but give it a less-plastic surface treatment.

So satisfying knowing you won because you started holding down the trigger first.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

This is how I would re-imagine Reach: Only change the order, the dialogue and the cutscenes of some missions.


-Winter contingency:
August 28th 0500 hours.

The mission goes exactly the same; Covenant discoverd at Reach, data module found on death scientist etc.

-ONI sword base:
Augusut 28th 0800 hours.

The intro cutscene is a little different: Carter explains that ONI sword base is currently under attack and that all nearby forces are asked to assist.

The rest of the mission remains the same. With the date of the mission changed to the same date as winter coningency, it makes more sence that Kat still has the data module.

-Nightfall:
August 28th 2500 hours.

Mission stays entirely the same, new dialogue explains there's a large, partly uninhabited area that is currently dark. You need to recon the area and see what's up.

-Tip of the spear:
August 29th 0700 hours.

Intro is changed a bit, Auntie Dot explains clearly that the Orbital defence platform generators are under attack by Covenant and shows the area which is under controll by the Covenant.

Rest of the mission remains the same.

End cutscene: Kat explains that the super carrier is able to destroy most of the fleet of Reach. Has already destroyed orbital defence platforms in the part of space were it is ATM.
She also explains she has a plan to destroy the super carrier without the UNSC enduring massive losses. Then she explains her plan as seen in the unchanged cutscene. Carter tries to raise ONI to tell them their plan but can't reach them.

-Exodus:
august 29th 1500 hours.

Intro cutscene: Changed entirely, Noble team is seen flying in towards New Alecandria and Carter explains this is the nearest city with ONI presence. While flying, Noble team is commanded by local troops(higher ranking then Noble) to assist in the Evac/pelican is shot down. Either way, they have to continue on ground and help with the evac

You and Kat start the mission together, the rest of Noble team pushes on ground towards the ONI tower(as seen in the mission New Alexandria)
Mission plays out the same, some chatter is altered to make up for the changes.

-New alexandria:
august 29th 2100 hours.
First cutscene: Carter explains the local ONI is up for their plan but they can't reach HIGHCOM because of the jammers located all over the city.

The rest of the mission plays out the same.

The outro cutscene: Remains largely the same, only the dialogue is changed into them talking to HIGHCOM. They are told an pelican is going to pick them up. Noble still has to flee for the glassing of the city and Kat still gets shot through the head.

-Long night of Solance:
August 30th 0030 hours.

Intro is the same, only kat is not there since she is death. The beach is now in nighttime settings.

The rest of the mission plays out the same.

The ending cutscene has Jorge sacrifising himself to detonate the ''bomb'' and the rest of the Covenant fleet arives over Reach. (this is the fleet detailed in tFoR.)

-The package:
August 30th 0500 hours.

Noble 6 is seen falling towards Reach. When you enter the atmosphere, you go in first person again and you get to use your re-entry pack to land at ONI castle Base ala ODST and team up with the rest of Noble team.

Carter tells about the invasion of Reach and that things aren't going very well. Then he says that ONI has directed the do destroy sword base.

The rest of the mission stays the same once again.

Ending cutscene also remains the same.

-The Pillar of Autumn:
August 31th 1000 hours.

Entire mission stays the same, with cutscenes. The only thing that is different is that captain keyes hints in his lines that the Pillar of Autumn had to come from space for ''this''.

-Lone Wolf:
August 30th 2600 hours.

Remains the same.

And that's it. With one mission changed in the order, some chanes of dates and time, some aditional dialogue and a few alterations in the cutscenes, you have a Reach that works much better with the previous exisitng canon.

The only thing whe have to ignore is that the Pillar of Autumn isn't rated for atmosphere but that's one thing I'm willing to ignore.

 

[The Librarian]

So satisfying knowing you won because you started holding down the trigger first.

There's many more elements that come into play than simply "holding down the trigger first." You can use that same simplification for BR matches too.

 

[Retro]

Man, you just know how to tug at my heartstrings

Expected nothing less from you Retro, your post about Halo 4 ideas was also fantastic.

Whooo, somebody read that mega post? Vindication at last! Thanks man.

Like I said earlier, I kinda just lurk in this thread unless I've made something in Forge or I'm engaging in some armchair game design. I figured it would get annoying by now, but honestly the only reason I do it is because I love Halo and want to see it as good as it can be. And Reach was just... /shrug.

 

[The Librarian]

This is coming from nowhere, but I hope the next Xbox has backwards compatibility. Would be kind of annoying to have to boot up the 360 just to play Halo 3, ODST, and Reach campaigns.

 

[Overdoziz]

There's a lot more elements that come into play than "holding down the trigger first." You can use that same simplification for BR matches too.

Sorry, forgot the simultaneous beatdown at the end.

 

[daedalius]

This is coming from nowhere, but I hope the next Xbox has backwards compatibility. Would be kind of annoying to have to boot up the 360 just to play Halo 3, ODST, and Reach campaigns.

I can't imagine it won't be; especially with the wait between Halo 4 and Halo 5.

We'll probably be playing 4 well into the next gen.