Me and my ctrl+f must have missed this. Pulling made up quotes out of thin air to paint yourself as a martyr seems to be a common tactic for you, as this is the second time I've pointed it out from you in this thread. You failed to address it the first time I pointed it out, and you'll do the same here.
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"My Weekend In Americas So-Called Rape Capital"
- Thread starter Gaborn
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Me and my ctrl+f must have missed this. Pulling made up quotes out of thin air to paint yourself as a martyr seems to be a common tactic for you, as this is the second time I've pointed it out from you in this thread. You failed to address it the first time I pointed it out, and you'll do the same here.
I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying that that is shit that even I don't do, as a fairly muscular dude. I don't put myself in that kind of a position, why would anyone else. For rape or robbery or whatever, nothing good comes from getting blasted out of your gourd so you can get home on your own. It's lose lose.
I've been trying this whole thread to move the discussion off prevention. NOBODY wants to touch the issue of the root causes aside from me.
Having lived in MT most my life (not missoula) I can only say that it is your typical college town. That being said most the students I've known to have gone there for college, went there and partied like fucking crazy before either dropping out, or transferring to Bozeman/Billings.
To me its like this weird 'hippy' town that feels dirty and most the people are annoying. It's always been my least favorite place in the state. Which says something considering I really dislike this place.
To me its like this weird 'hippy' town that feels dirty and most the people are annoying. It's always been my least favorite place in the state. Which says something considering I really dislike this place.
Baconsammy
Banned
Haha, my wife just read that and laughed her ass off. Thanks for the laugh.
I've done the first part many times as well, and I agree that women shouldn't have to worry about it, but they do, so should we all ignore it?
As I said, even I don't do that stuff(anymore, not since high school, lol). It is just risky on too many levels, even as a man.
Maybe I'm just too fucking old for the getting so shitfaced i forget my address bullshit.
Well you know that's not true.
I'd much rather discuss social attitudes which encourage sexual violence towards women (and attitudes which encourage male violence in general, whether towards other men or towards women) than say for the 783rd time why I have a problem with the rhetoric of prevention.
Baconsammy
Banned
And you made me laugh. =) Good one.
Then why am I the only one in this thread that has made a substantive post that is more than 'prevention is the devil!' or 'yay prevention!'?
NM, to be fair, Kinitari made a post on this pages outlined 3 root causes to be looked at, but I haven't had a chance to respond yet, thread moves too damn fast.
I'm uncomfortable with this, can you clarify this a bit more - this sounds like you are saying that half of
I don't think that's what you are ACTUALLY saying, so I hopefully you can clarify.
I think that drinking Alcohol may lead to situations occasionally where a woman and a man may find themselves in an intimate situation and the woman decides that she changes her mind, or something - but that's still rape, doesn't matter how much someone drinks - if a woman says "stop, no" it's officially rape.
If both parties are drunk off their ass and have sex, nobody calls it rape.
Personally? I think that there is particular language that is bandied about among some (not all mind you) college aged males that turn women into... well, points on a score board pretty much. Where fucking women not only becomes prioritized, but demeaning them is now somehow essential when you do it as well. It's not healthy, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's things like these that contribute to the rapist mentality.
LaserBuddha
Member
I can't believe there is actually a debate going on with a side rejecting the very idea of any kind of prevention, that women should have no regard for situations that make rape more likely. Just let the rape come as it may while we work on the cure!
Can't anyone step back from this and see how asinine it is? If I get shot while in the wrong neighborhood, just because I shouldn't have gone to that neighborhood doesn't mean that it's my fault I got shot. This is extremely simple logic.
Because no matter what you believe about trying to address the existence of rapists, if you also believe in prevention while rape is still a reality then you are blaming rape entirely on the victim!
Can't anyone step back from this and see how asinine it is? If I get shot while in the wrong neighborhood, just because I shouldn't have gone to that neighborhood doesn't mean that it's my fault I got shot. This is extremely simple logic.
nope..nope.. the logic seems sound!
Is it unbelievable that there are people that say things like "People shouldn't have to work that job at mcdonalds after spending 50,000 on a degree"? It's the same mindset - yes, we understand that making money is absolutely important, and you need to work to survive - but having a job like that just puts you in a position of perpetual debt, and a good hard look needs to be had at the economy itself - that we can't go around blaming college students for choosing the wrong degree, and implying the shitty situation they are in is their fault?
Vermillion
Banned
There's still something to be said about choosing an economically viable degree.
Baconsammy
Banned
I think alcohol exacerbates the problem, but isn't the root cause. Anything that lowers the inhibitions and ability for the woman to stop an aggressor is a bad thing, just as anything that inhibits a man from being able to coherently process the wishes of the other party is a bad thing. No means no regardless of blood alcohol level and drinking is not an excuse to say you dont understand the wants/desires of the female. If you think that could be a problem, then you as the male are at fault for over-indulging in the first place. The responsibility is always on you. The other 52 percent of acquaintance rapes are the bigger concern in my opinion.
LaserBuddha
Member
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean with how you worded it.
I would say to a prospective student that they should study what they love, as they should be able to be whoever they want if they work hard at it, but also warn them that if they are concerned about getting a job in that field straight out of college, then they should also take into consideration the demand in that field. This bad thing shouldn't happen to you, but as long as it can, here's something you can do that will make it less likely to happen to you.
Your point 1 and 2 might be worth discussing, especially WRT all that alpha male score keeping bullshit, it is certainly a contributing factor. 'Guy culture' is a complicated and many faceted discussion on it's own though.
But the big one is number 3, but I don't think the location and it's opinion of rape is as big a factor as some want it to be. I think it's just that prosecuting a rape where only 2 people were present without substantial corroborating evidence is REALLY difficult, as it should be. Even if 95%+ of the accusers are telling the truth, you would still be sending thousands of innocent people to prison for lengthy sentences if you were just to take the accusers word for it. It's a completely untenable situation for the legal system. The standard of proof in the legal system is based on the idea that it's better for 100 criminals to go free than 1 innocent person be imprisoned. It's unfortunate that due to the nature of the crime, rape, and especially date rape make it really hard to meet the standard of proof in some situations, but it's unavoidable.
Which is not to say that law enforcement agencies treat rape victims the way they should, I imagine they get fatigued after seeing so many cases that they simply can't win in the courts.
I can appreciate this position a lot more. Do yo think that it's something that needs to be done with alcohol? Ie, raising the age limit or something? I can see how alcohol is a huge issue when it comes to these situations, but I just cannot see how anything can be done about the alcohol itself.
Of course, the same as something can be said about prevention. But at the end of the day, is it really fair to expect a 17 year old kid to know what is going to be economically viable in 4 years, and be mature enough to pursue that course of action regardless of how he/she personally feels about the field? I don't think it's any more fair to expect girls who want to relax and enjoy themselves to remain ever vigilant and untrusting.
And the argument is, this is not looking at the whole picture. The economy as it is right now (at least in the US, although it's not amazing in Canada) has created a situation where we have an influx of college aged students graduating with worthless degrees - and some people instead of looking at the state of the job market as a whole, and how it is detrimental to the overall health of society, are telling the students "Well, should have gone to school to be an engineer! Now all you can do is work McD's and pay off that debt!". It's a shallow solution to an extremely deep problem, and a lot of the times the people suggesting these shallow solutions are doing so from a position of absolute comfort and security. It's insulting, and short sighted.
Baconsammy
Banned
And here's the part you hate - a lot of it is preventable. Don't drink until you're drunk with a person you barely know, and if you're deadset on doing so, do it with friends who wont allow you to leave with anyone who is more than a mere acquaintance. The other 52 percent, not as easily preventable. Those are the guys who think its their birthright to have sex with anyone they want to. It includes guys you may have dated 5 times, guys you just met, friends of your brother, your teaching assistant, the guy from the mailroom. Guys for whom alcohol isn't a factor. How you "fix" them, I do not know. But I do know that one class during orientation your freshman year isn't enough.
I'd actually think lowering the drinking age may be of more benefit. Maybe by the time people get to college they'll have grown up a bit. Who knows though. Prohibition certainly doesn't work, and good luck changing the 'party school' culture when universities have such a financial incentive to let shit slide to attract students.
Can someone explain to me why teaching women to watch their drinks in a bar is somehow detrimental to society and promotes raping culture? This thread is pretty much ridiculous given that no one here is advocating rape defense or that rape is not a big and complex issue but for some reason informing woman of the dangers of bars is somehow damaging.
I can kind of understand it if you are staunchly committed to a political position and someone has an opinion that doesn't line up 100% with your political position is automatically the enemy. As a relatively apolitical, mostly pragmatic/utilitarian guy, it can be confusing sometimes though.
Vermillion
Banned
I can see your point. But research is still done anyways.
But that is a preventative measure isn't?
Well, that 50% is of what, date rapes? And date rapes are what, 35% of total rapes? When you look at it as an overall issue, while that is still a HUGE and horrible number, it paints the picture of something that goes much deeper than drinking with friends. And remember, just because someone was drinking, doesn't mean that drinking is the cause or even the lubricant of the rape, so that number is probably even smaller than that.
It's too easy to get into a percentage argument about this sort of thing, and I want to avoid that (because I feel like this is a stickler of a point between me and you) so how about I just say this. I don't think that it is reasonable or realistic to expect women to be eternally vigilant when it comes to alcohol consumption. Maybe that one time they relax and forget, someone slips something into their drink - I can only imagine how that girl would feel if someone said to her "You should really watch your drink you know?" - all throughout my life I have forgotten things or done things half hearted, and never ever has it lead to me being raped - I can't imagine that being a consequence.
It's really hard you know? Being so distrustful, I trust everyone so easily... I can't imagine anything beating that out of me. I guess rape would, but at that point it's already too late, you know?
yes, and its also common sense. preventative measures are smart. you know that though.
Who in particular are you harping against right now, or rather, what particular point or quote? I think the people who reflexively attacked the 'prevention' angle have explained their positions a bit better now, would be understandable if you missed that though considering how fast this thread goes - so let me say it again on their behalves.
No one reasonable thinks that prevention isn't important, it's important to do whatever you can to avoid getting raped, obviously.
But the problem with prevention is that it is too easy, with this rhetoric, to put the onus on the would be victim to remain ever-vigilant, something you can't expect from anyone, I would never expect that from myself for example. It also is a shallow bandaid to a much deeper problem, and further, it sometimes creates a situation where if lets say someone knew the rules of prevention, but forgot/ignored them and got raped, they begin to blame themselves for their rape.
As important as it is to know how to prevent rape, in the face of the majority of rape being conducted in situations where normal prevention advice is useless, and with the understanding that prevention is not a real solution to the problem of rape, much much more needs to be done looking into the root causes of rape. It's too easy to think, 'once a girl knows her prevention strategy, it's good enough'.
I guess I did miss it as your point makes a lot more sense. From the beginning it seemed like prevention was some horrible thing. I agree too that prevention is not the answer and more needs to be done to be aware that it are people with close contact who are more likely to inflict rape.
Baconsammy
Banned
The 35 percent (acquaintance rape) is a huge number though, and prevention is key here. When you move into the 23 percent of rapes committed by a complete stranger, NOW clearly recommends preventative measures, but they're obviously not as simple as watch your drink. Those are more along the lines of dont walk alone in an alley, in a car park, in a park etc etc It's unfortunate but necessary. Couldn't begin to tell you how to reach someone who thinks its ok (or knows its not ok but still does it anyway) to rape a complete stranger, but professionals that know more than we do say it's about power and not sex. Reaching those people is no easy task, which is why even NOW teaches and advocates prevention to both women and men.
You're not mistaken. Prevention was called a myth on numerous occasions. It's not an answer, but it is a necessity. The same applies to most kinds of crime.
Ugh, I am really trying to avoid talking about the percentages, so how about this. Some estimates put date rape at 50% of all rapes. Lets pretend that all these were preventable - how many of these preventable rapes happened when the victim made a mistake, was too trusting, felt too strong of a connection, or looked away for that one second and had something slipped in her drink? This isn't something that can be fought by throwing more and more prevention rhetoric at, we're reaching critical mass.
That being said, while I really don't like the push on prevention, I've already made my case as to why, so no point beating that drum again.
Stranger rapes are also a huge problem, and that's something I am at a complete loss about in North American society, I really don't have a single clue about
I've read this entire thread and I want to know what evidence there is for preventative measure having no effect on preventing potential sexual assaults/rapes. I understand believing that the value of the preventative measures does not outweigh the loss of liberties of women, but the idea that Devo brought up about rape prevention being "a myth" is confusing. There has been no evidence to back up this claim other than inferences made from unclear classifications of those who commit rape and their relationship with the victim.
I realize many people have stories where prevention did not prevent rape, but when has single events and anecdotal evidence ever been enough. In statistics you can only really work from averages. I don't even want to attempt to make an analogy, but this is a point that I believe is valid.
Finally, I think there is a lot of anger and arguments happening in this thread because people are constantly being put on the defensive. I can understand why people speak in absolutes when they feel that someone is trying to marginalize victims or someone is trying to label others in a hurtful manner.
I'd like to see if there is anyone that is more versed in the effectiveness of these preventative measures to present evidence for or against prevention as a pragmatic tool for people.
Why are these preventative measures in place? Do criticisms of the preventative measure approach make up the majority of the scientific community? Do the negatives of using preventative measures outweigh the positives?
I realize many people have stories where prevention did not prevent rape, but when has single events and anecdotal evidence ever been enough. In statistics you can only really work from averages. I don't even want to attempt to make an analogy, but this is a point that I believe is valid.
Finally, I think there is a lot of anger and arguments happening in this thread because people are constantly being put on the defensive. I can understand why people speak in absolutes when they feel that someone is trying to marginalize victims or someone is trying to label others in a hurtful manner.
I'd like to see if there is anyone that is more versed in the effectiveness of these preventative measures to present evidence for or against prevention as a pragmatic tool for people.
Why are these preventative measures in place? Do criticisms of the preventative measure approach make up the majority of the scientific community? Do the negatives of using preventative measures outweigh the positives?
It may be, but why are these preventative measures constantly being taught? Wouldn't there have to have been some kind of statistical analysis or scientific studies to come up with precautions?
Devolution
Member
Do you know what women like myself have done to prevent being raped?
because they're common sense. there are a million kinds of fucked up people out there. in order to protect yourself, you can take certain steps. will they guarantee your complete safety? no, but they help. it's not even just about rape. basic things like "dont get hammered around a bunch of people you dont know", "dont walk down a dark alley alone at night", "stay out of x neighborhood after x time of day" are just basic things that can keep you out of all kinds of trouble. you're more likely to get robbed, murdered, beat up, and yes, raped, in certain places and scenarios. following basic guidelines to protect yourself is smart and should be taught to everyone.
Again, it's really unfortunate how hostile this thread has become.
For the record, I think any preventative measure we suggest to females also applies to males. Ideas people are labeling as "common sense" such as "Don't walk through bad neighborhoods alone at night" should be true for both genders, regardless of its efficacy.
For the record, I think any preventative measure we suggest to females also applies to males. Ideas people are labeling as "common sense" such as "Don't walk through bad neighborhoods alone at night" should be true for both genders, regardless of its efficacy.
it is true for both genders, it is taught to both genders.
and the thread is hostile because devolution is just pretty hostile in general. a real live wire, that one.
I don't really know how to answer that specifically. I don't think you can really answer that on an individual level. When i think of preventative measures I think of not walking alone at night, watching to make sure I don't leave my drink unattended, only talk to strangers, or people you just met, in public places. I don't really think I can answer what you've asked. Those things I've mentioned could apply to avoiding any kind of bodily harm. It's up to the person to live their life the way they want to. That's what I think of, when I think of protecting myself from harm when I'm out.
Devolution
Member
It's a trick question. The answer is lucky enough to not have been targeted by someone who was intent upon raping me. I've been in plenty of situations where all a man or men would have to do is decide they were going to rape me and there would be absolutely nothing I could do to stop them. So what's the real preventative measure? To avoid men? Surely that's unfair to both you and me right?
Don't walk alone. Don't talk to strangers. There you have it ladies, now you have no excuse to get raped!
I agree. That's why I said a sound argument is that it is not wise to preach these things because it is too harmful to the freedom of all people. Looking at an issue as large as sexual crimes on an individual level misses the point. I view this as avoiding bodily harm. I wasn't saying that people shouldn't talk to strangers. I was saying an example of a preventative measure is to try to talk with people in public places where there is an audience. It's the same reason why you should meet in a public place when purchasing something off of Craiglist or using a dating website.
I don't really think those things can prevent rape. If someone you trust wants to hurt you they probably can. I think taking precautions with people you barely know or just met is not out of the ordinary. Would you invite someone you didn't know into your home? How do you decide who to give your trust to and who you don't trust?
I think that most of these "preventative measures" are things people are taught from childhood to adulthood when dealing with giving your trust to strangers.
I'm not saying anything like what you just said. It's insulting that you would put vile words like that in my mouth.
Angry Fork
Member
I think it goes without saying preventative measures are assumed to be used in situations where they can be used to some effect. If you're in a situation where preventative measures wouldn't work, then they wouldn't work. That doesn't mean they may not be useful in other situations.
I have to wonder if some people here are against learning self defense too just because the world should be sunshine and rainbows and I shouldn't have to learn it it's a waste of time etc. and so on.
this
Devolution
Member
The problem is when we discuss these in lieu of what society does to perpetuate rape and blame victims. And a lot of "preventative" rhetoric is not that much different from victim blaming in the onus it places on the victims.
You make a good point. This is why I understand why you are short sometimes with people bringing up "preventative measures." I think most just argue with your willingness to label it a "myth." That implies some of the things I mention offer zero value in preventing bodily harm on a whole. I do not have statistics to back up my ideas, but I think to say these measures are a myth is an extreme position that needs specific evidence.
charlequin
Banned
The idea really isn't that rape culture is "monolithic," but it can certainly come off that way in conversations. The idea is much more like:
- As you identify, a sex-negative culture where people are encouraged not to express themselves truthfully or be honest about what they want creates a seedy, duplicitous environment for sexual behavior
- That environment gives cover to the (small but significant) set of guys who are just blatant, immoral rapists by giving their behavior a ready-made excuse
- Similarly, a culture that pushes the idea that men and women are fundamentally different, can't truly be friends, don't care about the same things or communicate in the same language, can't succeed in the same careers, etc. makes men more unwilling to trust women and vice versa.
- This also gives cover to that set of rapists because it means men are inclined not to trust women over other men when they report a sexual crime
- None of this is the result of a secret pro-rape cabal who comes together to make rape more possible, just a bunch of diffuse cultural factors that add up to more than the sum of their parts and which most men (being unaffected by it) are oblivious to
- And since men also have the lion's share of political and cultural power, they don't do anything to fix it
For the most part, this sort of thing isn't the result of people who are objectively-pro-rape working to secretly advance the rape cause, it's just a bunch of different, slightly shitty problems (that boil down to rather petty lack of concern on someone's part) all adding up together to make a really shitty situation.
I think a lot of guys honestly, truly overestimate how many situations feel "comfortable" for many women, especially those who have a history of abuse (of themselves or people they knew growing up.) I've known more than one woman who (quite reasonably, frankly) found almost any social situation with multiple men, men they didn't know, alcohol, socialization at night, socialization in public, etc. uncomfortable in exactly this fashion because of their own history with sexual assault or abuse. "Don't participate in situations that make you uncomfortable" often means "don't go out with friends, don't date, don't stay late at work, don't walk in your own neighborhood, etc."
Also: I think it's worth noting that when people make references to burqa and repressive controls on women's behavior, that's not an exaggeration or purely a rhetorical weapon. In societies that do strongly repress women's freedom and rights in that fashion, the threat of rape is the explicit tool that's used to enforce that control. When women are threatened with punishment (being forced to marry their rapist or be subject to abuse or even death at the hands of their own family) for the "crime" of being raped, and given repressive controls (head-to-toe body coverings, inability to leave the house, a constant family escort, etc.) as the only alternative to keep them "safe" -- that's the road the "focus on prevention" angle starts down, and I don't think it's particularly odd to see women reacting in a pretty hostile way to that concept.
The idea that preventative measures is a myth isn't meant to say "Preventative measures could never have any impact on your being raped in a specific instance." For instance, not going home with a man who was planning on raping you if you had - clearly not going home with him had an effect on whether you were raped in that specific instance.
But no one can be 100% vigilant 100% of the time. Even if someone is being as vigilant as possible, it is possible that someone might still catch them unawares - either someone they trusted or someone catching them in a situation where they believed themselves safe. The salient factor in whether someone gets raped is ultimately that there was a man (usually) who decided that he wanted to rape her.
The "prevention is a myth" comment is with regards to the idea that preventative measures are what makes the difference between women who deal with at least an attempted rape and those who never have to face that. It isn't because the women who suffered sexual assault or rape were less than vigilant. It was because some of those women were unlucky enough despite what precautions they took.
If there were some evidence that the people hammering the prevention, prevention, prevention drums were making that argument as an "in addition to" the primary work of changing the culture to having more respect for women, decoupling masculinity from heterosexuality, decoupling masculinity from violence, having schools view sexual assault on female students seriously so this attitude of girls not having bodily integrity wouldn't get started so young, etc., I would be less reflexively hostile to the suggestion.
charlequin
Banned
Also, constant vigilance is exhausting -- living under the threat of constant violence drastically reduces people's quality of life, life expectancy, and level of health even if they never become a victim of said violence directly themselves. The status quo that eternal vigilance leads to is one where men need to be careful or else nothing particularly bad will probably happen to them, while women need to be careful or else they will be subject to traumatizing and violent personal violation. Even if that's better, it's still a horribly and unacceptably awful state to accept as part of a civilized society.
samus i am
Member
I've had friends that went to the bar and had their WATER ruffied. That's right, 100% sober and 10 minutes after ordering their drink they appeared very wasted.
She was not dressed like a whore, not flirting with guys and acting slutty, not drunk out of her mind drunk. Tell me, what was her mistake then? Trying to get out of the house to be social?
When are we as a society going to stop putting the burden on these women to not get raped? There should be no, "Well she should have..." EVER. The dudes that think rape is ok are the villains.
Let's focus on them and their actions.
She was not dressed like a whore, not flirting with guys and acting slutty, not drunk out of her mind drunk. Tell me, what was her mistake then? Trying to get out of the house to be social?
When are we as a society going to stop putting the burden on these women to not get raped? There should be no, "Well she should have..." EVER. The dudes that think rape is ok are the villains.
Let's focus on them and their actions.
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