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[Incendiary]

No prevention is an absolute though, isn't it?

Correct. Which is why there are other things we should look at instead of rape prevention. I would rather fix the problem of rape than prevent rape from occurring, if that makes any sense. In absence of a solution, prevention is the best thing we can do. However, if we put enough effort into changing our culture, I think we can go beyond just preventing rape and actually stop it for the most part.

Wait, your anecdote about a rape being prevented was suppose to address that rape prevention doesn't work?

Yes, my friend didn't get raped that night. But it didn't prevent the rapist from trying, which is the point I was trying to make. The douchebag that roofied my friend didn't say "hey, she's with a group of people, I'm not going to roofie her." He said "I want to have sex with this girl, she's with friends so I'm going to have to be sneakier about it." Precautions and preventative means aren't going to stop rapists entirely, it's just going to make them come up with more subtle ways of accomplishing their goals. Necessity is the mother of invention, so to speak.

 

[Mumei]

That's not really the problem with these discussions, it's the aggressive posting to knock down arguments rather than side-step or use it to lead into solving the real issues. You don't get conversations by making the person you talk to put up their defenses, just arguments.

So how would you have responded to Baconsammy's posts? How would you have side-stepped and used it to lead into solving the real issues?

 

[Devolution]

That's not really the problem with these discussions, it's the aggressive posting to knock down arguments rather than side-step or use it to lead into solving the real issues. You don't get conversations by making the person you talk to put up their defenses, just arguments.

And you don't bother to direct discussion because?

 

[Baconsammy]

KNOWING this, can you not see how banging on the prevention drum is futile,

Why would I concede a point I find to be incredibly unintelligent? Women's groups advise prevention. Universities give classes on it. A good parent teaches it (to both their boys and girls).

Correct. Which is why there are other things we should look at instead of rape prevention. I would rather fix the problem of rape than prevent rape from occurring, if that makes any sense.

Not instead of, in addition to. I'm with you on fixing the problem, but I'm a husband as well as a father of a daughter, so I live in the real world where the problem hasn't been fixed. So where prevention is teachable, I'll do so. I'm definitely with you in theory though, and its a noble pursuit.

 

[PBalfredo]

So how would you have responded to Baconsammy's posts? How would you have side-stepped and used it to lead into solving the real issues?

Instead of posts consisting simply of "Prevention is a myth" say, "Prevention isn't as important as addressing issues that lead to rape and rape culture, such as..."

 

[Vermillion]

Instead of posts consisting simply of "Prevention is a myth" say, "Prevention isn't as important as addressing issues that lead to rape and rape culture, such as..."

.

 

[Devolution]

Instead of posts consisting simply of "Prevention is a myth" say, "Prevention isn't as important as addressing issues that lead to rape and rape culture, such as..."

.

I must have missed the mumei/kinitari posts doing exactly that and he still balked. Then snark did him in, as it usually does with his type.

 

[Incendiary]

Let me ask you a question, what do you think is more important - a women taking the burden on herself and focusing on prevention, or society as a whole working on changing the attitude we have towards rape so it occurs less often?

This is basically the crux of what I've been trying to get across.

Prevention = all women changing how they act to prevent rapes.

Instead, we should focus on the some men that are assholes and think raping a woman is okay/try to get away with it/etc. and eliminate that factor.

 

[ThisWreckage]

David Lynch was born there. I wonder if such a landscape shaped his views on sex and women.

 

[Baconsammy]

Instead of posts consisting simply of "Prevention is a myth" say, "Prevention isn't as important as addressing issues that lead to rape and rape culture, such as..."

To that I'd agree. "Prevention is a myth" is just too ignorant for me to ever agree to, however. A fact feminists, law enforcement, universities etc agree with.

Instead, we should focus on the some men that are assholes and think raping a woman is okay/try to get away with it/etc. and eliminate that factor.

Given the statistics though, 45 percent of 77 percent of acquaintance rapes (date rapes, boyfriends, etc) are committed while both parties are drunk. The root of the problem is more than just guys being assholes, but also an over-indulgence of alcohol. Lots of issues go into that particular classification of rape.

 

[Kinitari]

So how would you have responded to Baconsammy's posts? How would you have side-stepped and used it to lead into solving the real issues?

I've been trying too, and I am trying too more - I understand a part of what Shouta is saying, some people (most people) get extremely defensive in these volatile threads, so you need to give them an out if they feel backed into a corner. I know baconsammy isn't some crazy dude who thinks women who get raped by friends, lovers and family deserve it - so I am trying to focus on that. I also want to try and help him understand WHY people are tired of hearing about prevention, prevention is something that is drilled into every girl by their mothers as soon as they put on their first dress. It's important, but it's disgusting that it needs to happen at all.

We need to start looking at what it is that makes rape so prevalent. I can think of a lot of reasons, but I am not a sociological expert by any stretch - still, if I were to guess

1. 'Guy' culture pressuring someone to prove his 'manliness'
2. 'Guy' culture debilitating a man's respect for a woman
3. Many different factors that make rape an easier crime to get away with, this can be broken down into many categories in itself (slut shaming, drugs, location and it's opinion of rape etc).

Why would I concede a point I find to be incredibly unintelligent? Women's groups advise prevention. Universities give classes on it. A good parent teaches it (to both their boys and girls).

Why not focus on the rest of my post bro? I'll ask a question - if you were to ballpark, what percentage of women out there already know about tons of things they can do to prevent rape?

 

[Shouta]

So how would you have responded to Baconsammy's posts? How would you have side-stepped and used it to lead into solving the real issues?

Normally? Being understanding of your opposition's viewpoint, addressing it, explaining why it doesn't work, and then leading the discussion into something that's more productive.

"I agree that prevention is always helpful. However, in this case, I don't think it's enough. Many rapes occur where the assailant is someone the victim is familiar with. This lowers their guard and making prevention measures more difficult. What we need to do is combine prevention and awareness with fixing our culture. We need to make it so that women aren't afraid to report it and that men realize how grave of a crime it is."

Yadda yadda yadda.

It's all about tone. After you get them listening then you can get into specifics.

And you don't bother to direct discussion because?

Because I came into this thread late? I shouldn't need to be directing discussion either. You're perfectly capable of educating folks.

 

[iamblades]

I must have missed the mumei/kinitari posts doing exactly that and he still balked. Then snark did him in, as it usually does with his type.

All of mumei/kinitari's posts were just stats and anecdotes backing up your argument that prevention is useless(while not being quite as categorical in their denials of any benefit to prevention), and even those stats and anecdotes don't fit that argument really, if you dig a little deeper into them.

As far as I can tell, I am the only one in this thread that has actually posted my theories on the root causes of rape. Of course it's such a charged issue, I don't blame anyone for not doing so, but acting like baconsammy is just ignoring valid arguments is not true.

It's a complicated issue, but acting like people who are genuinely trying to be helpful are the enemy and completely wrong just because their facts and opinions don't fit into your political worldview is dismissive and not really helpful in any way.

 

[marrec]

That's not really the problem with these discussions, it's the aggressive posting to knock down arguments rather than side-step or use it to lead into solving the real issues. You don't get conversations by making the person you talk to put up their defenses, just arguments.

Shouta, I tried the exact thing you mentioned and it was ignored by Baconsammy because he could not attack it, it goes both ways for sure and I'm certain you realize this.

 

[Baconsammy]

Normally? Being understanding of your opposition's viewpoint, addressing it, explaining why it doesn't work, and then leading the discussion into something that's more productive.

"I agree that prevention is always helpful. However, in this case, I don't think it's enough. Many rapes occur where the assailant is someone the victim is familiar with. This lowers their guard and making prevention measures more difficult. What we need to do is combine prevention and awareness with fixing our culture. We need to make it so that women aren't afraid to report it and that men realize how grave of a crime it is."

Yadda yadda yadda.

It's all about tone. After you get them listening then you can get into specifics.

100 percent correct. We've wasted at least 5 pages because some people can only react to a statement about going to bars/parties with friends and watching out for one another with statements like "everyone should just stay home and never go out and never do anything". Completely irrelevant and basically just intended to derail any conversation.

Shouta, I tried the exact thing you mentioned and it was ignored by Baconsammy because he could not attack it, it goes both ways for sure and I'm certain you realize this.

You made your argument clear: prevention can't reduce crime. I disagree with your basic premise and thus stopped engaging you. Why would I when it would just be another useless circular argument that goes nowhere since we disagree with each other so drastically?

 

[marrec]

100 percent correct. We've wasted at least 5 pages because some people can only react to a statement about going to bars/parties with friends and watching out for one another with statements like "everyone should just stay home and never go out and never do anything". Completely irrelevant and basically just intended to derail any conversation.

Like you even care about actual discussion Baconsammy, as soon as we came to a point of substantive debate you started attacking someone else.

 

[Mumei]

Instead of posts consisting simply of "Prevention is a myth" say, "Prevention isn't as important as addressing issues that lead to rape and rape culture, such as..."

I did both, actually.

But for what it is worth, I was PMing someone about this earlier, and I felt like I expressed myself a little better there (slightly editing a couple things~):

I do not have a problem with the idea that woman should be taught to defend themselves (it is often efficacious, after all) or that one should watch their drinks, or be aware of their surroundings, at least in and of itself. The problem I have is that rape prevention programs place all their emphasis on telling women how to avoid a variety of rape that is relatively uncommon (10 - 15% are 'stranger rapes') and fail to have the same sort of awareness campaign for men. If all of the talk about rape is "Women need to be prepared. Women need to watch their drinks. Women need to never drink with men they don't know. Women can't spent time alone with male acquaintances. Women can't do _____," and no one says "The man who raped is the one who is responsible for this, it implicitly places responsibility for whatever happens on her, because her responsibility is the only responsibility being discussed. Even if she was drunk, that wasn't an invitation to rape. Even if she was walking home in a skirt, that wasn't an invitation to rape," it implicitly places the blame for what happened on her.

It's not the idea of limiting rape that I have a problem with (though I think that the number of rapes that can truly be prevented by preventive tactics (as opposed to self-defense, which has been shown to be effective) is relatively limited), but that the same things that these preventative tactics talk about are the same questions women get when they go to file a rape charge. Why were you dressed like that? Did you know him? Why were you there alone?, etc., when then result in the victim being dragged through the mud and accused of being a slut, of lying, of being secretly responsible for it because of her poor judgment (and not because he decided to rape her), etc. I think that an emphasis on talking about what women can do to limit their exposure makes more sense outside of the larger cultural narrative of blaming women for what men do to them and outside of the context of a patriarchal system which encourages sexual violence. And I think that a discourse in which the only way we talk about rape is how women can avoid rape and spend almost no time discussing men's responsibility for rape - not as rapists themselves (as most men aren't rapists), but in terms of accepting a code of silence about unethical practices (e.g., the practice of getting girls drunk) is one that implicitly places all of the responsibility for rape on the victims.

It also seems as though the straight men who make those arguments don't seem to realize that what they are proposing as far as "prevention" goes would mean the ending of dating as we know it. Never being alone with men doesn't mean "Never being alone with men, except Baconsammy because he's totally trustworthy"; it means "Never being alone with men." And I know that, say, Baconsammy wasn't suggesting that, but it is the natural extension of his arguments. If he's going to say that we need to emphasize women trying to prevent rape, then let's actually do the one thing that would help: Limit all men's access to women.​

 

[Incendiary]

Given the statistics though, 45 percent of 77 percent of acquaintance rapes (date rapes, boyfriends, etc) are committed while both parties are drunk. The root of the problem is more than just guys being assholes, but also an over-indulgence of alcohol. Lots of issues go into that particular classification of rape.

Yeah, which is the problem. There should be just as many, if not more, classes directed at men about controlling themselves while drunk as there are prevention classes for women.

Our society's general problem is we balk when talking about proper behavior while drunk to younger people. We're not supposed to drink until we're 21, but you can probably find kids as young as 13 or 14 who are getting drunk. The formative middle/high school years need more education about sex, what's proper conduct when you've consumed alcohol, and the combination of the two, instead of pretending everybody is suddenly going to know the proper way to act when they hit 21.

EDIT: Obviously this is U.S., other countries have lower drinking ages, but since the article was about Montana I figured U.S. drinking age.

 

[Devolution]

Bacon your posts were the typical I'm going to mask my victim blaming attitude in "preventative measures." You already outed yourself as insensitive and inflammatory to victims and potential victims of rape. I have just proven why your attitude is harmful. The thread has come full circle and I don't regret any of it.

 

[Vermillion]

I must have missed the mumei/kinitari posts doing exactly that and he still balked. Then snark did him in, as it usually does with his type.

I personally don't recall that - I do indeed remember the posts saying that prevention was a myth, and no showing that they didn't entirely believe that or any going back on that statement.

But I could simply not remember the posts that you're talking about.

 

[Baconsammy]

Why not focus on the rest of my post bro? I'll ask a question - if you were to ballpark, what percentage of women out there already know about tons of things they can do to prevent rape?

I couldnt begin to give you that percentage. I can only tell you about the behavior of my sphere of friends/family/acquaintances. And I'd venture a guess that nearly 100 percent of them are adept at taking necessary pre-cautions. More so a few years ago when we were all in graduate school together, but most are married now so the bar/party scenario is more of a distant memory.

Bacon your posts were the typical I'm going to mask my victim blaming attitude in "preventative measures." You already outed yourself as insensitive and inflammatory to victims and potential victims of rape. I have just proven why your attitude is harmful. The thread has come full circle and I don't regret any of it.

And none of that ever happened. Good lord.

 

[Kinitari]

All of mumei/kinitari's posts were just stats and anecdotes backing up your argument that prevention is useless, and even those stats and anecdotes don't fit that argument really, if you dig a little deeper into them.

Okay... let me try this again.

I would wager (good money too) the majority of women in the Western World are not only taught about rape prevention, but have had their education in the matter start shortly after they could start walking, where it has continued for long after that.

That being said, I think it's still very important that rape prevention discussions occur, as even one rape prevented by that information is useful.

Regardless, I feel as though an overall tone shift needs to be made - away from prevention, and towards a systematic overhaul on how we perceive rape in society. Finding and rooting out the causes of rape should be paramount.

In regards to the vitriol that is coming out of those people who are upset at the constant attempts to discuss prevention - at best I can describe it as a reflex. So often, the discussion of prevention finds it's way into something that could be considered victim blaming, where it is the fault of the victim for not checking her drink every single time, or for letting her acquaintance use her apartment bathroom in the middle of the night - etc etc. While it is important to be cautious, it is also extremely exhausting seeing the burden of the issue being placed on the shoulder of the victim or would be victim.

Like any social issue, a bandage is not adequate, and a bandage is almost insulting when it comes to a social issue as abhorrent as rape.

I personally don't recall that - I do indeed remember the posts saying that prevention was a myth, and no showing that they didn't entirely believe that or any going back on that statement.

But I could simply not remember the posts that you're talking about.

Never once have I called prevention a myth myself, I have repeatedly said that talks about prevention are almost an act in futility, and I highlight my reasons for why I feel so constantly.

1. Most women know these things in the western world
2. It is a bandage
3. It is often times turned into victim blaming/burden placing
4. It makes me sad

Prevention is important, super duper important - but women I'd wager know what they need to do by now. While the education needs to keep occurring, we need to focus on the core issues, the root of the problems. It's too easy to think "Well, we've told them what to do to avoid rape, if they get raped it's their fault now for not listening" (mind you I am not accusing ANYONE in this thread of doing that).

 

[Vermillion]

I did both, actually.

But for what it is worth, I was PMing someone about this earlier, and I felt like I expressed myself a little better there (slightly editing a couple things~):

I do not have a problem with the idea that woman should be taught to defend themselves (it is often efficacious, after all) or that one should watch their drinks, or be aware of their surroundings, at least in and of itself. The problem I have is that rape prevention programs place all their emphasis on telling women how to avoid a variety of rape that is relatively uncommon (10 - 15% are 'stranger rapes') and fail to have the same sort of awareness campaign for men. If all of the talk about rape is "Women need to be prepared. Women need to watch their drinks. Women need to never drink with men they don't know. Women can't spent time alone with male acquaintances. Women can't do _____," and no one says "The man who raped is the one who is responsible for this, it implicitly places responsibility for whatever happens on her, because her responsibility is the only responsibility being discussed. Even if she was drunk, that wasn't an invitation to rape. Even if she was walking home in a skirt, that wasn't an invitation to rape," it implicitly places the blame for what happened on her.

It's not the idea of limiting rape that I have a problem with (though I think that the number of rapes that can truly be prevented by preventive tactics (as opposed to self-defense, which has been shown to be effective) is relatively limited), but that the same things that these preventative tactics talk about are the same questions women get when they go to file a rape charge. Why were you dressed like that? Did you know him? Why were you there alone?, etc., when then result in the victim being dragged through the mud and accused of being a slut, of lying, of being secretly responsible for it because of her poor judgment (and not because he decided to rape her), etc. I think that an emphasis on talking about what women can do to limit their exposure makes more sense outside of the larger cultural narrative of blaming women for what men do to them and outside of the context of a patriarchal system which encourages sexual violence. And I think that a discourse in which the only way we talk about rape is how women can avoid rape and spend almost no time discussing men's responsibility for rape - not as rapists themselves (as most men aren't rapists), but in terms of accepting a code of silence about unethical practices (e.g., the practice of getting girls drunk) is one that implicitly places all of the responsibility for rape on the victims.

It also seems as though the straight men who make those arguments don't seem to realize that what they are proposing as far as "prevention" goes would mean the ending of dating as we know it. Never being alone with men doesn't mean "Never being alone with men, except Baconsammy because he's totally trustworthy"; it means "Never being alone with men." And I know that, say, Baconsammy wasn't suggesting that, but it is the natural extension of his arguments. If he's going to say that we need to emphasize women trying to prevent rape, then let's actually do the one thing that would help: Limit all men's access to women.​

I would agree that this expressed your point better.

 

[Timedog]

You made your argument clear: prevention can't reduce crime.

Show how/why your specific prevention ideas will reduce crime dramatically. Saying "crime prevention prevents crime!" isn't a very good argument.

 

[marrec]

You made your argument clear: prevention can't reduce crime. I disagree with your basic premise and thus stopped engaging you. Why would I when it would just be another useless circular argument that goes nowhere since we disagree with each other so drastically?

I'm not arguing that the act of precaution itself is useless (Devo may be, and I agree with her, but that's not what I'm arguing.) I'm arguing this:

Any perceived benefit from Prevention Rhetoric is outweighed by the negative effects it has on Rape Reporting and Victim Blaming. You may have 100% pure motives in espousing your beliefs and I trust that you do, but if we all start advocating for prevention, then those who are raped will probably feel like THEY have failed, not the rapist themselves.

You haven't responded to the idea of Prevention Rhetoric being poisonous to fixing our culture.

 

[Dude Abides]

The legal system has consistently aimed to define and prosecute date rape cases in such a way as to protect the rights of all involved parties and to maximize the achievement of justice in date rape cases. Each state has their own laws regarding date rape, which are influenced by society, public policy, law makers, and date rape cases. Many states have adopted the following definition of date rape: "sexual intercourse which is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate injury." The additions of the terms "duress" and "menace" are important, as they include implied or perceived threats of force and verbal force.

Yeah. See what terms aren't listed in whatever summary of statutes it is you quoted? Terms like "Date," "strange," "friend," or "acquaintance"? The law generally doesn't care about how well the victim and the accused knew each other before the sexual contact. It's actually fairly straightforward - non consensual penetration is rape, no matter how well the victim knew the perp, despite what internet Perry Masons might wish to believe.

 

[iamblades]

I did both, actually.

But for what it is worth, I was PMing someone about this earlier, and I felt like I expressed myself a little better there (slightly editing a couple things~):

I do not have a problem with the idea that woman should be taught to defend themselves (it is often efficacious, after all) or that one should watch their drinks, or be aware of their surroundings, at least in and of itself. The problem I have is that rape prevention programs place all their emphasis on telling women how to avoid a variety of rape that is relatively uncommon (10 - 15% are 'stranger rapes') and fail to have the same sort of awareness campaign for men. If all of the talk about rape is "Women need to be prepared. Women need to watch their drinks. Women need to never drink with men they don't know. Women can't spent time alone with male acquaintances. Women can't do _____," and no one says "The man who raped is the one who is responsible for this, it implicitly places responsibility for whatever happens on her, because her responsibility is the only responsibility being discussed. Even if she was drunk, that wasn't an invitation to rape. Even if she was walking home in a skirt, that wasn't an invitation to rape," it implicitly places the blame for what happened on her.

It's not the idea of limiting rape that I have a problem with (though I think that the number of rapes that can truly be prevented by preventive tactics (as opposed to self-defense, which has been shown to be effective) is relatively limited), but that the same things that these preventative tactics talk about are the same questions women get when they go to file a rape charge. Why were you dressed like that? Did you know him? Why were you there alone?, etc., when then result in the victim being dragged through the mud and accused of being a slut, of lying, of being secretly responsible for it because of her poor judgment (and not because he decided to rape her), etc. I think that an emphasis on talking about what women can do to limit their exposure makes more sense outside of the larger cultural narrative of blaming women for what men do to them and outside of the context of a patriarchal system which encourages sexual violence. And I think that a discourse in which the only way we talk about rape is how women can avoid rape and spend almost no time discussing men's responsibility for rape - not as rapists themselves (as most men aren't rapists), but in terms of accepting a code of silence about unethical practices (e.g., the practice of getting girls drunk) is one that implicitly places all of the responsibility for rape on the victims.

It also seems as though the straight men who make those arguments don't seem to realize that what they are proposing as far as "prevention" goes would mean the ending of dating as we know it. Never being alone with men doesn't mean "Never being alone with men, except Baconsammy because he's totally trustworthy"; it means "Never being alone with men." And I know that, say, Baconsammy wasn't suggesting that, but it is the natural extension of his arguments. If he's going to say that we need to emphasize women trying to prevent rape, then let's actually do the one thing that would help: Limit all men's access to women.​

You are still taking things to their extremes in that, though a bit more fleshed out.

No one is saying women should never be alone with a man ever, no matter the circumstances. No one is saying that 100% of rapes can be prevented.

 

[Baconsammy]

You haven't responded to the idea of Prevention Rhetoric being poisonous to fixing our culture.

Why would I discuss something that I think is stupid when even feminist groups acknowledge that prevention is necessary despite the fact that it can lead to women feeling like they're being victimized? It's a necessary evil that works, and the only way for it to be truly addressed is to eradicate what is leading to all the rapes. Teaching people how to be safer isn't poisoning the culture. Not making an effort to solve the greater issues can.

 

[Vermillion]

Never once have I called prevention a myth myself, I have repeatedly said that talks about prevention are almost an act in futility, and I highlight my reasons for why I feel so constantly.

1. Most women know these things in the western world
2. It is a bandage
3. It is often times turned into victim blaming/burden placing
4. It makes me sad

Prevention is important, super duper important - but women I'd wager know what they need to do by now. While the education needs to keep occurring, we need to focus on the core issues, the root of the problems. It's too easy to think "Well, we've told them what to do to avoid rape, if they get raped it's their fault now for not listening" (mind you I am not accusing ANYONE in this thread of doing that).

I would agree with those points. But I also don't remember where the argument of prevention came up, so I don't remember anyone saying that we should do more to tell people how to prevent rape.

That's not an argument I would agree with, per-se - we should of course attack the root of the problem. I think I came in on the prevention issue at "prevention is a myth."

 

[Timedog]

Why would I discuss something that I think is stupid when even feminist groups acknowledge that prevention is necessary despite the fact that it can lead to women feeling like they're being victimized? It's a necessary evil that works, and the only way for it to be truly addressed is to eradicate what is leading to all the rapes. Teaching people how to be safer isn't poisoning the culture. Not making an effort to solve the greater issues can.

Saying something does not make it so.

 

[marrec]

Why would I discuss something that I think is stupid when even feminist groups acknowledge that prevention is necessary despite the fact that it can lead to women feeling like they're being victimized? It's a necessary evil that works, and the only way for it to be truly addressed is to eradicate what is leading to all the rapes. Teaching people how to be safer isn't poisoning the culture. Not making an effort to solve the greater issues can.

See, ask a specific question, have the question called stupid.

NO UR STUPID!

Seriously though, I'm not aware of feminist groups acknowledging that prevention is necessary. You'd think I'd have heard about that. Your response does not disprove my post though, you're just attacking the post itself with nebulous ideas and absolute statements that aren't backed up by any real world proof.

 

[Mumei]

You are still taking things to their extremes in that, though a bit more fleshed out.

No one is saying women should never be alone with a man ever, no matter the circumstances. No one is saying that 100% of rapes can be prevented.

I am not saying anyone has said that. I even acknowledged that when I said "And I know that, say, Baconsammy wasn't suggesting that..."

I was suggesting that if we were serious about prevention as the Big Thing we needed to be addressing (as opposed to the other things I was mentioning in that post), we wouldn't be doing picayune things that, just based on the statistics of the rate at which different types of rapes occur, might prevent a vanishingly small number of rapes from being attempted; we would be doing the one thing that would really prevent a lot of - though certainly not all - rapes, and that's segregating men and women.

 

[iamblades]

Okay... let me try this again.

I would wager (good money too) the majority of women in the Western World are not only taught about rape prevention, but have had their education in the matter start shortly after they could start walking, where it has continued for long after that.

That being said, I think it's still very important that rape prevention discussions occur, as even one rape prevented by that information is useful.

Regardless, I feel as though an overall tone shift needs to be made - away from prevention, and towards a systematic overhaul on how we perceive rape in society. Finding and rooting out the causes of rape should be paramount.

In regards to the vitriol that is coming out of those people who are upset at the constant attempts to discuss prevention - at best I can describe it as a reflex. So often, the discussion of prevention finds it's way into something that could be considered victim blaming, where it is the fault of the victim for not checking her drink every single time, or for letting her acquaintance use her apartment bathroom in the middle of the night - etc etc. While it is important to be cautious, it is also extremely exhausting seeing the burden of the issue being placed on the shoulder of the victim or would be victim.

Like any social issue, a bandage is not adequate, and a bandage is almost insulting when it comes to a social issue as abhorrent as rape.



Never once have I called prevention a myth myself, I have repeatedly said that talks about prevention are almost an act in futility, and I highlight my reasons for why I feel so constantly.

1. Most women know these things in the western world
2. It is a bandage
3. It is often times turned into victim blaming/burden placing
4. It makes me sad

Prevention is important, super duper important - but women I'd wager know what they need to do by now. While the education needs to keep occurring, we need to focus on the core issues, the root of the problems. It's too easy to think "Well, we've told them what to do to avoid rape, if they get raped it's their fault now for not listening" (mind you I am not accusing ANYONE in this thread of doing that).

I agree with most of what you said, and I don't believe I said that you were flat out saying that prevention was a myth, mainly that all your posts were mainly stuff backing up devo's argument in a more nuanced manner. My point was that no one else has even tried discussing the root causes or potential solutions. All of this discussion has been about how we shouldn't focus on prevention.

I'm ready to discuss something else, but no one has brought forth any new ideas to discuss.

In the absence of some great insight into law, society, culture, psychology and biology, prevention is the only answer I have to give. I have no other solutions, it is simply too complex of a problem. I gave my opinions as to one of the potential root causes, but no one else has bothered.

 

[Kinitari]

Why would I discuss something that I think is stupid when even feminist groups acknowledge that prevention is necessary despite the fact that it can lead to women feeling like they're being victimized? It's a necessary evil that works, and the only way for it to be truly addressed is to eradicate what is leading to all the rapes. Teaching people how to be safer isn't poisoning the culture. Not making an effort to solve the greater issues can.

Discussing it would help in this particular instance because it would help paint a more complete picture of you in this thread - when you keep saying the same thing over, it gives a 2 dimensional image of the sort of character you are, and that's doing you a disservice.

I understand that you think prevention is important, and prevention culture at it's core is important, but I appreciate you at least recognizing in this post that there is a downside to it.

Do you agree that a greater focus needs to be made on things other than teaching women about prevention, and would you be willing to discuss some of these topics in this thread? I think it would be good for your image, as it would give people a better idea of how you feel about the topic. If you want I'll start it off!

Do you think that there is a particular mentality, lets say in college males, that leads to rape - if so, what do you think it is - and do you think it's something that can be prevented?

 

[beelzebozo]

the problem is larger than just teaching "rape is wrong" (this should be totally obvious). the problem is treating women as special commodities, of treating female beauty like currency, of putting women up on a little pedestal while simultaneously subjugating them into means instead of ends (i.e., as a means of achieving physical pleasure, as a means of attaining social status, as a means of ameliorating ego deficits, et cetera et cetera).

what we need are new ideas about femininity and masculinity and what that dynamic is, about sexuality and what kinds of sex are desirable, about the avenues of attaining sex, and a lot of other really very complex issues that go way beyond the scope of rape safety education or harsher rape laws.

 

[Baconsammy]

See, ask a specific question, have the question called stupid.

NO UR STUPID!

Seriously though, I'm not aware of feminist groups acknowledging that prevention is necessary. You'd think I'd have heard about that. Your response does not disprove my post though, you're just attacking the post itself with nebulous ideas and absolute statements that aren't backed up by any real world proof.

From the NOW(National Organization of Women) Legal Defense and Education Task Force - Tips for preventing date/acquaintance rape, tips for preventing rape, and advice for dealing with the emotional devastation of being raped.

Just one of many.

 

[iamblades]

I am not saying anyone has said that. I even acknowledged that when I said "And I know that, say, Baconsammy wasn't suggesting that..."

I was suggesting that if we were serious about prevention as the Big Thing we needed to be addressing (as opposed to the other things I was mentioning in that post), we wouldn't be doing picayune things that, just based on the statistics of the rate at which different types of rapes occur, might prevent a vanishingly small number of rapes from being attempted; we would be doing the one thing that would really prevent a lot of - though certainly not all - rapes, and that's segregating men and women.

But that's not true if you dig deeper into those stats, as I posted earlier. Everyone seems to want to jump from 'raped by a total stranger on the street' to 'raped by someone you've known your entire adult life'. There are gradations and context to consider, you can just say 'this person was raped by someone whose name she knew, so she must have trusted him completely'. Even if the person was known and trusted, maybe you shouldn't trust the guy you work with to drive you home cause you are drunk. Maybe you shouldn't be getting so hammered you can't find your own way home. Maybe a lot of things, this is the same stuff we were discussing three pages ago...

 

[Shouta]

Shouta, I tried the exact thing you mentioned and it was ignored by Baconsammy because he could not attack it, it goes both ways for sure and I'm certain you realize this.

Certainly. However, the sooner one side gets worked up, the faster communication breaks down. When it's broken, it's hard to put back together. Both sides need to be less aggressive, defensive, and hostile. It just leads to creating havoc.

Why would I discuss something that I think is stupid when even feminist groups acknowledge that prevention is necessary despite the fact that it can lead to women feeling like they're being victimized? It's a necessary evil that works, and the only way for it to be truly addressed is to eradicate what is leading to all the rapes. Teaching people how to be safer isn't poisoning the culture. Not making an effort to solve the greater issues can.

Do you really need to post in that tone? You're actually on to a point but it's making it harder for people to listen to you.

 

[elcapitan]

I think the best way to address this problem is by attaching faces to it. People who have never been raped, or don't know people who have been, are speaking from a slightly uninformed perspective. I think education has to start with stories from the victims themselves. It's not so much saying "rape is bad," but I think hearing how it affects victims from the victims themselves will go a long way in addressing the attitudes about the problem.

Honestly, I think a story is the best way to make an argument. It's a painful thing to share, but it's necessary that we confront it, and have others confront it. I'd like to see more awareness on this issue and see organizations try to engage men on a sympathetic level. There's just not enough public exposure and money in this kind of venture, but I think sharing these kinds of stories will be better in the long run than adopting an attitude of "everything can be prevented if you try hard enough."

 

[Devolution]

I think the best way to address this problem is by attaching faces to it. People who have never been raped, or don't know people who have been, are speaking from a slightly uninformed perspective. I think education has to start with stories from the victims themselves. It's not so much saying "rape is bad," but I think hearing how it affects victims from the victims themselves will go a long way in addressing the attitudes about the problem.

Honestly, I think a story is the best way to make an argument. It's a painful thing to share, but it's necessary that we confront it, and have others confront it. I'd like to see more awareness on this issue and see organizations try to engage men on a sympathetic level. There's just not enough public exposure and money in this kind of venture, but I think sharing these kinds of stories will be better in the long run than adopting an attitude of "everything can be prevented if you try hard enough."

The reason a lot women (and men) don't go out of their way to report it is the same reason they don't want to share their stories and vice versa.

 

[Baconsammy]

Certainly. However, the sooner one side gets worked up, the faster communication breaks down. When it's broken, it's hard to put back together. Both sides need to be less aggressive, defensive, and hostile. It just leads to creating havoc.



Do you really need to post in that tone? You're actually on to a point but it's making it harder for people to listen to you.

He's asking me why I can't engage him on that point. I can't because I think his point is unintelligent. I apologize if it came off badly, but I've been subjected to this kind of bullshit:

"You already outed yourself as insensitive and inflammatory to victims and potential victims of rape. I have just proven why your attitude is harmful. The thread has come full circle and I don't regret any of it."

"You hate women." etc etc

 

[eastmen]

Its really tough. I have a close friend that was raped when we were younger. I was 19 and she was 17 I believe. But I also have a friend who slept with a guy she knew had money and then claimed she was raped and tried to extort money from him. Laws need to be stricter and punishments need to be better thought out on both sides of the fence.

 

[Mumei]

But that's not true if you dig deeper into those stats, as I posted earlier. Everyone seems to want to jump from 'raped by a total stranger on the street' to 'raped by someone you've known your entire adult life'. There are gradations and context to consider, you can just say 'this person was raped by someone whose name she knew, so she must have trusted him completely'. Even if the person was known and trusted, maybe you shouldn't trust the guy you work with to drive you home cause you are drunk. Maybe you shouldn't be getting so hammered you can't find your own way home. Maybe a lot of things, this is the same stuff we were discussing three pages ago...

And this is why we say that it looks like victim blaming. It looks at what happened to her - a man decided to take advantage of a vulnerable time and rape her - and rather than comment on that, the first impulse is to start looking for where she fucked up. That's what I don't like about the preventative mindset. It isn't the idea of prevention in and of itself that I have a problem with. It's the promotion of prevention as being the only thing we talk about (and the overselling of it).

It's the same sort of thing that I thought was telling when Baconsammy said that his wife jogged with him at night because she's "not a fucking idiot." Maybe he didn't think that through and realize that it gives the impression that he thinks that women who do jog alone at night are fucking idiots, but that's the impression that I get from that sort of statement.

 

[elcapitan]

The reason a lot women (and men) don't go out of their way to report it is the same reason they don't want to share their stories and vice versa.

Under reporting is also a big issue. Sharing is a way to promote, well, more sharing. People shouldn't be silent, and we should foster an environment that promotes people to talk. The shaming that goes on when it comes to these situations is another attitude that needs to be recognized as harmful. Even those who are trying to shame others, once they hear the stories, might reevaluate their stance a bit, but I'm probably putting too much faith in human decency. Can't stop me from trying though.

 

[iamblades]

Not to mention that saying 'prevention rhetoric' is poisonous to our culture is the same thing as saying we shouldn't be talking about, which is what this whole damn thread is about.

It's a circular discussion with a merry-go-round of phrases to make the argument seem fresh. It is going no where.

Post some actual tangible solutions (or even just problems that need solutions) and we can have a discussion.

 

[Shouta]

He's asking me why I can't engage him on that point. I can't because I think his point is unintelligent. I apologize if it came off badly, but I've been subjected to this kind of bullshit:

"You already outed yourself as insensitive and inflammatory to victims and potential victims of rape. I have just proven why your attitude is harmful. The thread has come full circle and I don't regret any of it."

"You hate women." etc etc

You gotta be the better person. It's rough but it makes you look a lot better. Make your point, back it up, and look like a guy in a top hat and a monocle.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It seems like many of the cases happening due to alcoholic influence?

Damn if everybody can just drink responsibly or whatever... But expecting everyone to drink responsibly in an event such as a party is as impossible of creating an Israel-Palestinian peace accord, I guess....

 

[Incendiary]

But that's not true if you dig deeper into those stats, as I posted earlier. Everyone seems to want to jump from 'raped by a total stranger on the street' to 'raped by someone you've known your entire adult life'. There are gradations and context to consider, you can just say 'this person was raped by someone whose name she knew, so she must have trusted him completely'. Even if the person was known and trusted, maybe you shouldn't trust the guy you work with to drive you home cause you are drunk. Maybe you shouldn't be getting so hammered you can't find your own way home. Maybe a lot of things, this is the same stuff we were discussing three pages ago...

I've walked girls home I just met that night, while we were both drunk, and had no intention of making a move on them at all. They trusted me to get them home safely and I did. Women shouldn't have to worry about getting hammered if they want to get hammered. It should be the norm to be able to trust a guy to walk them home. It shouldn't be the norm for them to be wary of a guy offering to walk her home.

 

[marrec]

From the NOW(National Organization of Women) Legal Defense and Education Task Force - Tips for preventing date/acquaintance rape, tips for preventing rape, and advice for dealing with the emotional devastation of being raped.

Just one of many.

From the link you posted:

Many times a woman will not want to confront her assailant, for fear of losing a job, getting a bad grade or losing respect within the community. Women sometimes look towards themselves, asking what they did wrong, therefore shifting the blame away from where it really should be.

The best way to protect yourself is to be aware of your surroundings and the people that you're with. Don't ignore feelings of uneasiness you may feel around a certain man, and don't worry about being rude or unfriendly.

They're not saying that to prevent rape you need to have your SO jog along with you, they're begrudgingly accepting that women need to be aware of Date Rape. You're espousing the idea that women need to be protected at all times while they're out of the house. (Extreme version of your argument, but effective because if jogging with your SO is effective, then being with her at all times she's outside the house is effective as well.) Also, it still doesn't address the idea that Prevention Rhetoric is poisonous.

Telling a woman to pay on the first date so they don't feel like they owe a man something is miles from telling a woman to never leave with a strange man from a bar. I've never tried to argue that Prevention is useless because there is no evidence to prove this. But the evidence exists that Victim Blaming and Shame/Guilt are prevalent in cases of Rape. Just look at the article in the OP.

Ari talked with the reporter for HOURS one day, then calls up the next day BEGGING her to not report anything because she FELT FUCKING GUILTY.

Prevention Rhetoric is what causes that.

 

[Baconsammy]

Discussing it would help in this particular instance because it would help paint a more complete picture of you in this thread - when you keep saying the same thing over, it gives a 2 dimensional image of the sort of character you are, and that's doing you a disservice.

I understand that you think prevention is important, and prevention culture at it's core is important, but I appreciate you at least recognizing in this post that there is a downside to it.

(1)Do you agree that a greater focus needs to be made on things other than teaching women about prevention, and (2)would you be willing to discuss some of these topics in this thread? I think it would be good for your image, as it would give people a better idea of how you feel about the topic. If you want I'll start it off!

(3)Do you think that there is a particular mentality, lets say in college males, that leads to rape - if so, what do you think it is - and do you think it's something that can be prevented?

Sorry, I missed this post. Let me attempt to respond to you.

(1) Without question
(2) Without question
(3) I couldn't begin to discuss the mentality of college males, or any males other than myself to be honest. When you look at the statistics, nearly half of all date-rapes occur when both parties are drunk. In my opinion that doesn't happen because the male is pre-disposed to rape, but instead I'm guessing (pure speculation) that alcohol heightens his drive while lowering her inhibitions at the same time, leading to a situation the guy most likely went to the bar/party to find but that the girl didn't. The other half that don't involve alcohol are calculated rapes. Either in advance or in the moment, and dealing with what causes that is key, and I believe many universities have one-off classes on it during orientation etc. And no, that's not nearly enough.

From the link you posted:



They're not saying that to prevent rape you need to have your SO jog along with you, they're begrudgingly accepting that women need to be aware of Date Rape. You're espousing the idea that women need to be protected at all times while they're out of the house.

What I actually said is that neither my wife nor I go jogging at night without the other. And I still disagree with your assertion that teaching people to be cautious is poisoning anything. At least not until programs are in place to educate/alter the culture that creates so many rapes. Until that time, prevention is key. I don't believe that teaching prevention precludes the other from occurring.