Baconsammy
Banned
Means very little coming from the person that said prevention is a myth.
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"My Weekend In Americas So-Called Rape Capital"
- Thread starter Gaborn
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Means very little coming from the person that said prevention is a myth.
Devolution
Member
It is. Your reading comprehension is still shit.
Actually, taking an argument to it's most absurd conclusion is a horrible way of making an argument. Reductio ad absurdum.
I got no issues with the rest of your statement though.
Baconsammy
Banned
Considering you took an article about bars in Montana and then brought up Middle Eastern women in Burkas and women being raped in South Africa, I'm pretty good with my reading comprehension. I know what's being discussed here.
No no no, It is not a logical fallacy when used in the proper context, as Devo did.
Zoramon089
Banned
Hmm, not quite...that would only be the case if what Devo said and what she was arguing against were more than remotely related...I don't think anyone has suggested women dressing more modestly as being a preventative measure so I'm not sure where Devo was going with that comment
If during the very night a rapist was waiting and decided not to act then, technically, it did. You can't say with certainty that wasn't the case
Devolution
Member
You think some random preventative measures that women do (and some already do out of fear) will somehow prevent rapes which are for the most part done by acquaintances. The way to significantly reduce rapes is to tackle attitudes that encourage or are complicit in letting rapes occur. If you honestly think telling women to do X will actually do anything to the numbers, you're flat out ignorant.
She's trying to illustrate that misogyny isn't something that is bred in certain settings, it's world wide. 'Prevention' doesn't mean shit in South Africa, and it doesn't mean shit in Missoula. Unless by 'Prevention' you mean reversing the trend of Slut Shaming and Victim Blaming.
I don't buy that. It misrepresents the original argument. At this point, I'm pretty sure Devo and Baconsammy are arguing about two completely different things that addresses neither point the other party is trying to make.
Baconsammy
Banned
Going to bars with friends and always keeping everyone's drinks under someone's supervision prevents anyone getting Roofied. Prevention works. Traveling to bars in a group and back home in a group prevents rapes (and numerous other crimes). Saying it's a myth is absurd.
Bullshit. She's been clear from the start that she thinks prevention is a myth and that advocating prevention is misogynistic and "blames the victim". Prevention works better than no prevention.
It might have been obtuse, but by juxtaposing the extreme example of Muslim women in Muslim countries (some, not all obviously) with party girls in Missoula she not only created a powerful contrast but showed that modesty and prevention (in this case, prevention also goes to not allowing women to leave the house without an escort as they do in many Muslim countries) it showed that Bacon's argument is JUST AS absurd as Devo's reply.
That's how I read it anyway.
Devolution
Member
Prevention works according to you, some random bloke on the internet who isn't even supported by the stats surrounding rape.
It's a Myth that it prevents rape Bacon BECAUSE most rape occurs not by silent assailants at the bar or sneaky fuckers in bushes on the way home, but people a woman knows.
Meus Renaissance
Member
I think his point (and Baconsammy can correct me if I'm wrong) was merely that taking preventative measures increases a woman's ability to defend herself and consequently should (at least logically) help counter assaults of any kind, not just sexual. I don't believe he was commentating on the deeper social/psychological factors that perpetuate sexual violence against women, or implying that these preventative measures are a guaranteed method to prevent an actual assault.
So I'm not really sure what the disagreement here is based on. Seems like a misunderstanding to me
Baconsammy
Banned
OK, show us your stats that shows crime prevention doesn't lower the rate of crime.
Yep, it's what many of us in this thread have been saying.
Show us your stats that it does?
There is no burden of proof in this discussion because the proof is impossible to obtain.
I've been to Missoula and the surrounding area and Missoula is pretty shitty tbh. It reminded me of Medford, OR which is the worst town in my state by far except smaller and full of weird casinos.
Outside of town things were a bit nicer. I'd rather dig a hole in the ground somewhere out in the woods and live in that than have to live in Missoula.
Devolution
Member
You mean bring up crimes or analogies that aren't rape when we're specifically talking about rape? No. No thanks. I don't need your disingenuous horseshit when you refuse to acknowledge that rape is a by product of misogyny and culture.
Zoramon089
Banned
So really bringing up stats, on either side, is meaningless...
I agree, but we also cannot say that anecdotal evidence is proof of anything. Bacon's Herculean efforts to prevent his SO from being raped prove nothing.
Are those numbers actually verified?
It's really scary to think that it's the people who are close to you who would do such horrible things. I can't even imagine...
I think my "preventative measures" are basically the best they can be. I like never go to bars (I don't like to drink) and I never hang out with male acquaintances 1 on 1.
It's unnerving to see people saying that's all useless and I'm supposed to accept that I'm at the mercy of whoever I meet and I'm just lucky they decide not to do things.
Prevention has to be useful right? It can't just be a "myth"? I mean, if you don't put yourself in situations where stuff can happen, then it shouldn't happen right?
But I guess my normal life is already very limited compared to these bar-going college students. So these preventative measures don't really impose or make me change my chosen lifestyle.
It's really scary to think that it's the people who are close to you who would do such horrible things. I can't even imagine...
I think my "preventative measures" are basically the best they can be. I like never go to bars (I don't like to drink) and I never hang out with male acquaintances 1 on 1.
It's unnerving to see people saying that's all useless and I'm supposed to accept that I'm at the mercy of whoever I meet and I'm just lucky they decide not to do things.
Prevention has to be useful right? It can't just be a "myth"? I mean, if you don't put yourself in situations where stuff can happen, then it shouldn't happen right?
But I guess my normal life is already very limited compared to these bar-going college students. So these preventative measures don't really impose or make me change my chosen lifestyle.
Devolution
Member
One of my friends was raped by her coworker. Another by her boyfriend.
Friend of a friend was raped by her boyfriend. Now her whole future is changed because she has to raise a child she never asked for.
Baconsammy
Banned
Yes, because saying some prevention can go a long way to creating some extra safety when drinking out at a bar is "disingenuous bullshit". Show me where I refuse to acknowledge that rape is a product of misogyny and culture. Show me. All I've said is that you assertion that prevention is a myth is idiotic beyond words.
Bacon, prevention isn't a Myth when it comes to your house burning down, or your car being stolen, but that is not extended to rape which isn't a product of being unprepared, it's a product deep rooted in our culture.
soul creator
Member
I'd wager it's because faaaar too much focus is placed on #2, and relatively little on #1 when it comes to rape discussions in general. So repeating #2 for the millionth time comes off as a bit patronizing (especially when there's little evidence that focusing on #2 actually solves the core problem). A couple other examples of how this phenomenon manifests itself in other areas:
The "don't walk into a bad neighborhood due to crime" advice has been brought up a couple times, and how we consider that acceptable. In the abstract, sure, that's well-meaning advice, but if 90% of the discussion is focused on "avoid bad neighborhoods!", with 10% of the discussion focusing on addressing poverty, mental illness, drug policy, etc., that displays a severe lack of prioritization. It lends credence to the idea of sweeping the problem under the rug and hoping for the best, as opposed to addressing it directly (especially, again, if it ends up being the majority of the discussion).
Another example is when people talk about the economy. A lot of focus sometimes gets placed on "hey, things are tough, so you gotta hustle to make it! Here's what you can do! Work 3 jobs! Go to school! Bootstraps!" Which, again, is good advice in the abstract ("why would anyone be opposed to working hard?"), but all too often, it shows a tacit acceptance of the idea that "bad economy with no jobs" is some natural way of the world with no way to solve it, so we should just suck it up and deal with it by working 3 jobs. But when the discussion focuses on this, it often ends up serving as a distraction for solving the real core issues (for example, specific policies that have been put in place that have led to a bad economy). So instead of people, say, arguing and voting to change those policies that have been put in place (which would actually solve the real problem), this weird sense of nihilism takes hold ("everything is fucked, so I'll just do what I can to make it!")
Essentially, people are tired of focusing on "symptoms" and realize that if you're really genuinely interested in solving the problem, the vast majority of resources, discussion, and advice should be focused on the "disease". Repeating the same symptom treating advice over and over does nothing to actually get to the core of the issue, and is ultimately like trying to use a band-aid on a hemophiliac.
(It can come off as Concern trolling as well)
Baconsammy
Banned
And no one with a brain is saying that taking precautions when going out to a bar full of people you don't know is going to prevent that.
Prevention will stop someone at a bar whose intent it is to roofie you and take you home and rape you. Prevention works. No one is saying it prevents everything. We're saying prevention isn't a myth, and people should take precautions. To say otherwise is just ignorant.
Devolution
Member
It's not idiotic. My friends did all those precautionary measures you seem so fit to say will reduce rape and were raped anyway. So what's the point in them? To couch our behavior? To give an out for when we wore our hair in a ponytail? They don't serve much of a purpose if you are just dealing with the effects, the fact that a man is intent upon raping rather than engaging as a society why he is or what as a culture, if anything, we did to tacitly encourage such behavior. And there are a lot of things we do as a culture to tacitly encourage rape or turn a blind eye when it happens. But let's keep telling women what they do wrong.
Now we're getting somewhere.
What I'm afraid of Bacon is that all this talk of 'Prevention' is going to cause women who did not prepare to be raped 24/7 to feel shameful and guilty if they ARE raped, which will lead to her not reporting the rape.
Do you understand that at least?
Vermillion
Banned
So... there's nothing we can do then? That's kind of scary. Very scary.
Society isn't going to change within our lifetimes...
I probably shouldn't have come into this thread.
Trent Strong
Banned
This is just completely nonsensical.
Vermillion
Banned
I don't think that would help this problem particularly - but breaking down the notion of what being a man is may help, and educating people on rape and sexual harassment may help as well.
Zoramon089
Banned
This is the very type of post I've been looking for these last few pages. I now finally understand why those posts were simply brushed under the rug (assuming this was the reason)
It's not an either-or situation. You can both tackle the attitudes that encourage rape culture AND educate women about preventative and defensive measures until such time as those cultural changes take hold. No one is suggesting that we put all women in burkas or say that they're not allowed to go out and party. No one is arguing with you about the fact that the vast majority of rapists are known to the victim. No one is suggesting that rapists are anything but scum, or that rape victims are in any way deserving of or culpable for their rape.
But if you're sitting there saying that "try not to leave your drink unattended for minutes at a time between sips" is basically the same thing as "the bitch had it coming", then you are being 100 percent unreasonable.
Baconsammy
Banned
That's NEVER been the argument here.
Mostly the part where we tell women specifically that they have to change how they interact in society because men rape them.
Devolution
Member
You can try to just live your life as you see fit. There are people out there who would do you harm, even those you trust, it's an unfortunate reality but I wouldn't limit your experiences too much because of it. Not everyone is dating a potential rapist or has a coworker who is and some of us are lucky enough to have lived a life free of rape but it doesn't change the reality that we are often victims of people we know. No amount of watching my drink like a hawk at a bar prevents that reality.
Baconsammy
Banned
There's not much you can do if someone you trust decides they're going to rape you and physically you can't protect yourself or deter him. There's plenty you can do to prevent getting taken advantage of at a bar by an acquaintance. Plenty. And none of it impacts your enjoyment or ability to live a happy life.
Vermillion
Banned
Oh - I wasn't particularly noting things that they should change, rather things that they should continue doing - mainly going places in groups.
Unfortunately, that will do nothing for dates (biggest problem), as that would impede their comfort. But bars, parties, etc? Definitely go with some friends... I'd say particularly female, but I know some female friends who can't stand hanging out with other women.
I guess it doesn't help with the grander majority of rapes after all... well, if you have female friends, at least see if they'll join you at a party/club or whatever.
"Crime prevention" is vague enough to be meaningless in this context. As with anything, some preventative measures might work, some might not. You're presenting the idea that rape happens because girls go to bars by themselves and don't see a dude put something in their drink, which is atypical. I've seen and done and been around lots of drugs, but I've never even heard of someone having or selling rohypnol (sp?). It's not like it gets passed around like candy. Your idea of rape is the rape you see on TV. Since you're making the claim that these prevention measures would make a huge difference, please give some kind of data that backs it up, the burden is on you to do so.
That's not even to get into the argument about freedom vs security.
soul creator
Member
actually, one analogy that might actually make sense is the recent TSA screening discussions. Surely it at least prevents some terrorism right? It's not the sole thing to be done, but it's helped lessen terrorism at least a little bit, right?
When in actuality, it's all just security theater. It gives the feeling of being "in control" and "prevention", but it doesn't actually solve the core issue, or even make us safer than we would've been otherwise.
When in actuality, it's all just security theater. It gives the feeling of being "in control" and "prevention", but it doesn't actually solve the core issue, or even make us safer than we would've been otherwise.
You can eat a balanced healthy diet and get plenty of exercise your entire life and still drop dead of a heart attack.
You have heard of probability right?
I've asked you a couple times what you think the answer to this problem is, but all you are doing is saying what the answer isn't.
I don't know about the university of Montana, but most university campuses I've been to have more anti rape activism and awareness programs per capita than any other place on earth, yet reported rates of rape are higher. If talking about how bad rape is was a solution then college campuses should be the safest places around.
LaserBuddha
Member
Yeah I had to read it twice because I couldn't believe it.
Rape isn't a random act, so do nothing to avoid it! It requires someone else to make a conscious decision, so there's nothing you can do to avoid it!
Also, accidents "just happen".
Angry Fork
Member
Nobody here is doubting it's entirely the rapists fault what happens, nobody is trying to claim it's the female's fault for wearing short clothes or any of that other shit. We're saying if you feel uncomfortable in an area like something is going to happen and you're out of your element, trust your instincts and leave. If you're a goofy looking white kid walking in a poor neighborhood that is known to have high crime, are you going to stay there 'just because' you should be able to? Or are you going to use your common sense and leave because you may be a target?
Yes we should instead focus on not giving excuses for men and trying to stop rape in general rather than tell women they shouldn't do x,y,z. I agree with that. But you can do both. Rapists exist and you can both 1. try to stop blaming women on a macro level and 2. prevent case to case situations on a micro level. Just because people are saying you should be weary of your surroundings doesn't mean we hate women and want them to wear burka's.
I don't have any links or statistics citing that preventative measures absolutely work. I'm going by what I think makes sense. Is it at the expense of a person's liberty/freedom? Yes I don't doubt that, but because of the fucked up culture we're in there's already a stigma against women using their freedom to the highest capability. Is it fucked up that guys can wear whatever and go wherever and don't have to worry about being raped but women have to worry about that? Yes. But until the day comes where women don't have that negative stigma attached it would be short sighted to avoid preventative measures just based on principles that can hurt you if you're not careful.
Yes we should instead focus on not giving excuses for men and trying to stop rape in general rather than tell women they shouldn't do x,y,z. I agree with that. But you can do both. Rapists exist and you can both 1. try to stop blaming women on a macro level and 2. prevent case to case situations on a micro level. Just because people are saying you should be weary of your surroundings doesn't mean we hate women and want them to wear burka's.
I don't have any links or statistics citing that preventative measures absolutely work. I'm going by what I think makes sense. Is it at the expense of a person's liberty/freedom? Yes I don't doubt that, but because of the fucked up culture we're in there's already a stigma against women using their freedom to the highest capability. Is it fucked up that guys can wear whatever and go wherever and don't have to worry about being raped but women have to worry about that? Yes. But until the day comes where women don't have that negative stigma attached it would be short sighted to avoid preventative measures just based on principles that can hurt you if you're not careful.
Vermillion
Banned
That's probably true, actually. You feel safer, but you aren't really... on that note, you're apparently more likely to die going down the stairs than in a terrorist attack.
Baconsammy
Banned
It's not unusual for women I know that are going on first or second dates to make them double dates and bring me or another friend along with our wives. Taking precautions is not a bad thing, and if the guy you're on a date with has a problem with it, he's not worth being on a date with.
That's been my argument. Prevention rhetoric is poisonous Baconsammy, it is hardly preventative and it continues the Culture of Rape.
This post needs to be read.
Ding.
What questions are women asked when they say they are raped?
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