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"My Weekend In America’s So-Called ‘Rape Capital’"

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How can you give consent accidently?

Not accidentally, but not quite jumping in the water with both feet. I think guys sometimes get in these situations just trying to get laid with a counterpart who they feel is into them as well but they need convincing to get what they want. It's an asshole move but these guys shouldn't be labeled rapists.
 

kirblar

Member
Sometimes that no is taken innocently. So your making out with a girl and you ask for sex she says no. That no can be taken as not now given the context. So you keep making out until you ask again. Maybe get a verbal yes or physical cue which is no indication of whats going on in a girls head. That's how I understood Ali's story. She gave consent even though she didn't want to which led to her torment. She later thinks she's a rape victim which means the guys in her story are rapists. I think her self-torment has led her to unjustly displace her guilt onto others for her own mistakes. That is why this subject is a blurry one.

Now if evidence was available, say a video then yes I think it's rape. But individual testimonies are no basis for a man to be labeled a rapist.
Yeah, there are issues with it, but you're making way too many assumptions here and going down a bad path. In the first story, it's that we just don't know what happened past a certain point. She knows she "didn't want to have sex" and let him know that. But she also doesn't know what happened past a certain point in time, and therefore, we don't either. Just because you wouldn't have made a decision sober doesn't mean that you might not have made a decision when drunk. Blacking out doesn't mean you were passed out, just that you don't remember what occurred.
 

Gaborn

Member
I'm well aware of what the MPC says. I was talking about the common law.

So with respect to the common law:

Although substantial resistance may no longer be an essential element in a rape prosecution, resistance may be critical to the prosecutor in proving beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape has occurred (meaning that the intercourse was forcible and nonconsensual_, and or that the defendant was on reasonable notice of the female's lack of consent (which means that he possessed the required state of mind i.e. mens rea)

A general rule is that a person is not guilty of rape if he entertained a genuine and reasonable belief that the female voluntarily consented to intercourse with him. See:

California Supreme Court (2005): People v. Stitely

Which, again, is part of the problem. Men believe that if they can pressure a woman into saying yes by almost any means available they're not raping "because they said yes"
 
Because sex isn't about pressuring another person to do something they don't want to do. That's called rape.

Then a lot of people around the world and around US college campuses are vile rapists. It would seem the court of law disagrees with you and instead labels these types of guys not as rapists but as assholes.
 

Pollux

Member
Which, again, is part of the problem. Men believe that if they can pressure a woman into saying yes by almost any means available they're not raping "because they said yes"

I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying the way it is. Not that it doesn't need to change.
 
Ding.

shadowsdarknes, watch that video in the topic Gaborn linked to. What do you think of that situation?

Which video, do you have a post #?

Edit: Saw the video, holy fuck that's obviously rape, and that's not what I'm defending. Don't anyone even begin to think of me defending a situation where the guy is clearly being aggressive and intimidating.
 

Gaborn

Member
Then a lot of people around the world and around US college campuses are vile rapists. It would seem the court of law disagrees with you and instead labels these types of guys not as rapists but as assholes.

Which again, goes back to the culture of rape. If you think I disagree with anything you said you're wrong. You're making my case for me.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying the way it is. Not that it doesn't need to change.

Yes.

shadows - This video
 
Gaborn, just in case you missed my edit: Saw the video, holy fuck that's obviously rape, and that's not what I'm defending. Don't anyone even begin to think of me defending a situation where the guy is clearly being aggressive and intimidating.
 
I try and avoid this kind of threads as much as possible because I know I would end up getting way too worked up about it, but as someone who goes to college I have to say I find outright disgusting the amount of people in American colleges (at least I haven't heard anyone say anything even close to that over here, but then again European and American lives in college are very different) who seem to be rapists without even realizing they are.
 

Gaborn

Member
So we're on the same page here?

Yes, it feeds back into the culture of rape.

Gaborn, just in case you missed my edit: Saw the video, holy fuck that's obviously rape, and that's not what I'm defending. Don't anyone even begin to think of me defending a situation where the guy is clearly being aggressive and intimidating.

Then I guess I'm not sure exactly what meaningful distinction you're making. You're saying "no doesn't REALLY mean no" essentially but you're trusting drunk or high or who knows people to make these fine distinctions. I think what you're advocating LEADS to situations like this whether you intend it that way or not.
 
Yes, it feeds back into the culture of rape.



Then I guess I'm not sure exactly what meaningful distinction you're making. You're saying "no doesn't REALLY mean no" essentially but you're trusting drunk or high or who knows people to make these fine distinctions. I think what you're advocating LEADS to situations like this whether you intend it that way or not.

I think it's safe to assume not every situation unfolds in the exact same way as the video shows either. Some guys can sweet talk their way to what they want without using their hands or force. That is the distinction.
 

kirblar

Member
I think it's safe to assume not every situation unfolds in the exact same way as the video shows either. Some guys can sweet talk their way to what they want without using their hands or force. That is the distinction.
I don't think anyone's trying to call pick up artists rapists.
 

Orayn

Member
I try and avoid this kind of threads as much as possible because I know I would end up getting way too worked up about it, but as someone who goes to college I have to say I find outright disgusting the amount of people in American colleges (at least I haven't heard anyone say anything even close to that over here, but then again European and American lives in college are very different) who seem to be rapists without even realizing they are.

And yet lots of Americans are still deep in denial about this fucked up country's rape culture. It's disgusting.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
Because sex isn't about pressuring another person to do something they don't want to do. That's called rape.

That's a tough definition to swallow. I'm sure I have pressured my GF into sex and she has done the same to me but I doubt we would label each other rapists. Can you clarify what you mean by pressure since I don't think we are talking about the same exact thing?

It makes it very difficult to judge due to the fact that we could be against having sex but a little coaxing and we could have sex and still enjoy it but on the other end of the spectrum a little coaxing and the other might feel like they are obligated or risk losing their partner. I guess the best answer in this situation is open communication with your partner so you don't put them in latter category.
 
I don't think anyone's trying to call pick up artists rapists.

Ok, I think I started the conversation off right, then a few comments came close to feeling like guys who charm their way into a ladies pants when the lady may not have given up her peach if she was sober are rapists. Thinking that really got me off course which is why my posts read like a sarcastic asshole saying I can't believe how crazy you guys are lol. I apologize to all for that.
 

Gaborn

Member
That's a tough definition to swallow. I'm sure I have pressured my GF into sex and she has done the same to me but I doubt we would label each other rapists. Can you clarify what you mean by pressure since I don't think we are talking about the same exact thing?

It makes it very difficult to judge due to the fact that we could be against having sex but a little coaxing and we could have sex and still enjoy it but on the other end of the spectrum a little coaxing and the other might feel like they are obligated or risk losing their partner. I guess the best answer in this situation is open communication with your partner so you don't put them in latter category.

The use of undue influence whether verbally, physically, using emotional baggage or some other tactic to get someone to do something they don't want to do for your own personal gratification. It's not just selfish, it's rape.
 

RDreamer

Member
I don't think anyone's trying to call pick up artists rapists.

I have heard some put forth the argument that verbal pressure or even verbal convincing is tantamount to rape, too. I could see that being the case in some instances, but that's a really fucking hard distinction to make...
 
I have heard some put forth the argument that verbal pressure or even verbal convincing is tantamount to rape, too. I could see that being the case in some instances, but that's a really fucking hard distinction to make...

And I am advocating that those people are not rapists. Otherwise, in someway everyone who has ever had contact with a partner is in some level a rapist.
 

Gaborn

Member
And I am advocating that those people are not rapists. Otherwise, in someway everyone who has ever had contact with a partner is in some level a rapist.

Have you ever read Hemingway's short story Hills Like White Elephants? Men use a lot of pressure tactics to control the way a woman acts (in that case a man pressuring a woman to have an abortion). It's kind of disturbing that you're endorsing that.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
The use of undue influence whether verbally, physically, using emotional baggage or some other tactic to get someone to do something they don't want to do for your own personal gratification. It's not just selfish, it's rape.

So what kind of influence is allowed? Since undue influence is perfectly demonstrated by the "Implication" video, LOL gotta start watching that show again.
 
Have you ever read Hemingway's short story Hills Like White Elephants? Men use a lot of pressure tactics to control the way a woman acts (in that case a man pressuring a woman to have an abortion). It's kind of disturbing that you're endorsing that.

It's kind of disturbing that you are comparing men with a fetish for casual sex as rapists because they "pressure" women to sleep with them through the power of their charm. It is also undermining women because your definition treats women like they need a protector and can't look after themselves.

I appreciate the link to Hemingway though. Will definitely read when I lose a little edge of this hangover lol.
 

Gaborn

Member
So what kind of influence is allowed? Since undue influence is perfectly demonstrated by the "Implication" video, LOL gotta start watching that show again.

Talk to them. Get to know them. Ask them if they want to have sex. If they say no drop it. If they say yes? Have sex!


It's kind of disturbing that you are comparing men with a fetish for casual sex as rapists because they "pressure" women to sleep with them through the power of their charm. It is also undermining women because your definition treats women like they need a protector and can't look after themselves. I appreciate the link to Hemingway though. Will definitely read when I lose a little edge of this hangover lol.

It's not just "charm" it's pressure to the point that as you described it
She gave consent even though she didn't want to which led to her torment.
 

kirblar

Member
Oh, that's where this whole hang-up is coming from. The issue isn't that she was "bullied" into giving consent it's that in her sober state, she's "I would never do that, I'll wait until marriage", but in her alcohol-fueled state, it's not clear that she wouldn't (and in one case, she definitely does give consent, and the issue actually comes from revocation.)
 

Gaborn

Member
Oh, that's where this whole hang-up is coming from. The issue isn't that she was "bullied" into giving consent it's that in her sober state, she's "I would never do that, I'll wait until marriage", but in her alcohol-fueled state, it's not clear that she wouldn't (and in one case, she definitely does give consent, and the issue actually comes from revocation.)

Drunk sex is not safe for giving consent.
 

Gaborn

Member
No, but it's not 100% unsafe either. It's a super messy grey area.

What I mean is that if a person is drunk you should not assume that their given consent is going to be fine and it's ok to do anything. It's like I asked Rukus earlier right when he got banned

Suppose that a man takes a drunk woman home as you describe, but she then passes out when she gets there. Is she still consenting?

To me, that's not a gray area and that's what seems to happen a lot in these situations.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
Talk to them. Get to know them. Ask them if they want to have sex. If they say no drop it. If they say yes? Have sex!



I'm was talking about two people in a relationship already so I'm not sure if your reasoning completely applies there. For example Me:" hey you want to have sex" GF:"No, I just got back from jogging and I'm dirty and sweaty" ME: ""that's fine I don't care, so how about it" GF: "Ok". By your reasoning I should of stopped after the "no" but I didn't and I pressed on and got what I wanted because I knew she was just a little self conscious which prevented my initial request. In this situation it's not as simple as no means no. I agree that you should communicate with your partner but I have an issue with your definition since it makes it seem like I'm a rapist.
 
Talk to them. Get to know them. Ask them if they want to have sex. If they say no drop it. If they say yes? Have sex!




It's not just "charm" it's pressure to the point that as you described it

It sucks that it happened that way but honestly I don't know how the situation went down so my assumption should be taken as it is, an assumption, and responded to in that sense. Truthfully, neither one of us will know what happened that night.

Personally, I believe there are a lot women out there who won't succumb to that pressure. She should have stuck to her guns but eventually folded due to intoxication and naivety. Unfortunately, some poor choices on her end led to an unsavory situation. I think her response with torment was normal except she overlooked the lesson to be learned and let it consume her mind with guilt.

The guy is a douche, in my opinion because I would never take advantage of a blackout drunk girl who seemed to even slightly not want any part of me. That said, my assumption is he too was pretty fucked up and made a poor decision as well.
 

kirblar

Member
What I mean is that if a person is drunk you should not assume that their given consent is going to be fine and it's ok to do anything. It's like I asked Rukus earlier right when he got banned
Correct, as you need to cover your own ass.
 
Oh, that's where this whole hang-up is coming from. The issue isn't that she was "bullied" into giving consent it's that in her sober state, she's "I would never do that, I'll wait until marriage", but in her alcohol-fueled state, it's not clear that she wouldn't (and in one case, she definitely does give consent, and the issue actually comes from revocation.)

You and I are on the same page as I think we both have been the entire time. Now, it's just obviously apparent.

Again, I apologize for offending anyone earlier when I was frantically trying to convey what I'm conveying now, finally, in a coherent way.

This post is exactly what I was going for earlier.
 

Gaborn

Member
I'm was talking about two people in a relationship already so I'm not sure if your reasoning completely applies there. For example Me:" hey you want to have sex" GF:"No, I just got back from jogging and I'm dirty and sweaty" ME: ""that's fine I don't care, so how about it" GF: "Ok". By your reasoning I should of stopped after the "no" but I didn't and I pressed on and got what I wanted because I knew she was just a little self conscious which prevented my initial request. In this situation it's not as simple as no means no. I agree that you should communicate with your partner but I have an issue with your definition since it makes it seem like I'm a rapist.

Well, I do think the rules are SLIGHTLY different for couples. But I would say it would be wrong to apply some types of pressure there as well. For example, as a couple you know each others hot button issues and also what each of you really want to do. Just as an example, suppose your GF was uncomfortable with anal and you were interested in it. Also suppose for the sake of argument that she wanted a ring, you didn't. Would it be acceptable to suggest a trade of one for one? My answer is no, that's rape and that's unacceptable pressure.

I think in the scenario you described the pressure is much less and I suspect if she said "I'm tired, not now" you would have dropped it. So I don't think it's comparable to what we're talking about


It sucks that it happened that way but honestly I don't know how the situation went down so my assumption should be taken as it is, an assumption, and responded to in that sense. Truthfully, neither one of us will know what happened that night.

Personally, I believe there are a lot women out there who won't succumb to that pressure. She should have stuck to her guns but eventually folded due to intoxication and naivety. Unfortunately, some poor choices on her end led to an unsavory situation. I think her response with torment was normal except she overlooked the lesson to be learned and let it consume her mind with guilt.

The guy is a douche, in my opinion because I would never take advantage of a blackout drunk girl who seemed to even slightly not want any part of me. That said, my assumption is he too was pretty fucked up and made a poor decision as well.

You're placing the burden on the raped girl again.
 
This and, based off of mumei's post, we need to educate people more about what situations are rape. Because it seems that some people don't understand what constitutes rape.

So part of the problem with the way discussion of this point has gone, I think, is that "education" has such a neutral, passive quality to it, like the problem is that men just need someon to factually explain to them what rape is.

In reality, it's not merely that men need to be given more factual information about what constitutes rape (although that too must happen), but men must have the morality of the situation more aggressively conveyed to them, and an empathic viewpoint of women built up. Mumei's study quoted above is deeply relevant here -- if men, on balance, don't view women with empathy at a young age, then the greatest factor that might prevent them from committing rape is missing.

There's a big difference, essentially, between someone knowing intellectually that rape is "wrong," and actually having a deep-seated moral abhorrence at the idea of forcing someone to have sex. Achieving the latter is what's needed to prevent more men from raping, as well as to ensure that more other men refuse to assist or go along with those who do.

I just don't see how we can educate parents into thinking more co-ed sleepovers are a good thing. And how do we combat the sexualization of women without threatening the freedom of women to express themselves sexually?

The answer to all of this stuff is "feminism." Or, less flippantly, the solution is social movements that push for greater equality between genders and expound on a viewpoint that opposes the strong gendering of society (and of children especially.) There have been huge strides in this direction in American society over the last century and it comes directly from the feminist movement; the way to improve the situation further is to keep pushing for further transformations of society's approach to gender rather than to decide that all the problems are already fixed.
 
Well, I do think the rules are SLIGHTLY different for couples. But I would say it would be wrong to apply some types of pressure there as well. For example, as a couple you know each others hot button issues and also what each of you really want to do. Just as an example, suppose your GF was uncomfortable with anal and you were interested in it. Also suppose for the sake of argument that she wanted a ring, you didn't. Would it be acceptable to suggest a trade of one for one? My answer is no, that's rape and that's unacceptable pressure.

I think in the scenario you described the pressure is much less and I suspect if she said "I'm tired, not now" you would have dropped it. So I don't think it's comparable to what we're talking about




You're placing the burden on the raped girl again.

I don't see any reason not to.

In my opinion, people are personally accountable for their actions, the mistakes they make, and hopefully will learn from their past trials and errors. In the case of Ali, I don't even think she thinks she was raped, but instead used it as an excuse to condone her behavior and gain sympathy because of her roman catholic upbringing.

This, in my opinion, isn't a case of rape and instead is an honest mistake. Her bad judgement led to an asshole being an asshole, and he should be spited as an asshole and receive shame from others for being an asshole, but not thrown in prison.
 

Gaborn

Member
I don't see any reason not to.

In my opinion, people are personally accountable for their actions, the mistakes they make, and hopefully will learn from their past trials and errors. In the case of Ali, I don't even think she thinks she was raped, but instead used it as an excuse to condone her behavior and gain sympathy because of her roman catholic upbringing.

This, in my opinion, isn't a case of rape and instead is an honest mistake. Her bad judgement led to an asshole being an asshole, and he should be spited as an asshole and receive shame from others for being an asshole, but not thrown in prison.

Where is the accountability you're placing on the rapist? All I'm hearing from you is the girl was in a shady situation, when are you going to hold the guy to account for what happened too? You may believe in personal accountability but it's coming across as slut shaming.
 
Where is the accountability you're placing on the rapist? All I'm hearing from you is the girl was in a shady situation, when are you going to hold the guy to account for what happened too? You may believe in personal accountability but it's coming across as slut shaming.

To answer your question, read the paragraph below.

Edit: Let me put it more briskly. She experiences self-pity, explains her story, and the girls spread the story around to hurt the douche bags image. Most guys won't even high five another guy if they knew he blatantly took advantage of a really drunk chick.
 

kirblar

Member
Part of the issue is that there are simply people who are "uneducatable". I've played competitive M:TG for over a decade, and when people start cheating at it (for high stakes) they're normally not doing so out of any rational +EV mindset. They're doing it because they're going to cheat and game almost anything they do. And because of that, as a competitor, you have to be vigilant about watching out for certain behavior patterns. It doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to people, but it does mean that you have to watch your own back, because no one else is going to do that for you. When I've gotten cheated, I don't get mad at the other guy, I get mad at myself for allowing them to get away with it and adjust my behavior going forward to try and avoid history repeating. I also try and educate people I know about these things. I'm not blaming anyone for getting ripped off, but I am trying to help them avoid getting ripped off in the future.
 

Gaborn

Member
Part of the issue is that there are simply people who are "uneducatable". I've played competitive M:TG for over a decade, and when people start cheating at it (for high stakes) they're normally not doing so out of any rational +EV mindset. They're doing it because they're going to cheat and game almost anything they do. And because of that, as a competitor, you have to be vigilant about watching out for certain behavior patterns. It doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to people, but it does mean that you have to watch your own back, because no one else is going to do that for you. When I've gotten cheated, I don't get mad at the other guy, I get mad at myself for allowing them to get away with it and adjust my behavior going forward to try and avoid history repeating. I also try and educate people I know about these things. I'm not blaming anyone for getting ripped off, but I am trying to help them avoid getting ripped off in the future.

To answer your question, read the paragraph below.

That's a pretty damn callous way of looking at rape.
 

kirblar

Member
That's a pretty damn callous way of looking at rape.
I'm not trying to directly analogize them. Rape is obviously much much more traumatic and severe than your opponent getting to Brainstorm a second time off of JTMS. But we don't have a way of weeding out potential rapists from society, so we do need to educate people on ways they can avoid getting into a problematic situation. (As well as educate the educatable guys about what is and isn't ok behavior when trying to get laid.)
 

grumble

Member
Well, I do think the rules are SLIGHTLY different for couples. But I would say it would be wrong to apply some types of pressure there as well. For example, as a couple you know each others hot button issues and also what each of you really want to do. Just as an example, suppose your GF was uncomfortable with anal and you were interested in it. Also suppose for the sake of argument that she wanted a ring, you didn't. Would it be acceptable to suggest a trade of one for one? My answer is no, that's rape and that's unacceptable pressure.

I think in the scenario you described the pressure is much less and I suspect if she said "I'm tired, not now" you would have dropped it. So I don't think it's comparable to what we're talking about

Well there is acceptable pressure and there is unacceptable pressure. If she says no and you tell her you really want it and want her to try it out for example you aren't raping her. You're pushing for what you want but the sex isn't nonconsensual.

It's where you draw the line, and that is a discussion we need to have as a society. If you tell a girl she won't be cool unless she has sex with you, she can tell you to fuck off.
 
That's a pretty damn callous way of looking at rape.

Why can't it be drunk college kids partying being sexually active, and those who don't get down like that monitor themselves to make sure they are in check? Regardless, the poor innocent naive chick who never drank in high school is going to go past her limits. It sucks but when you finally gain some freedom away from home most people push their boundaries. That doesn't come without a price, it isn't risk free, and the only way to minimize the risk and knock back is to do some digging, or pace yourself slowly rather than get hit in the face with an epic mistake like losing your virginity to a stranger. A mistake like that surely wakes up though, and Ali appears like she learned from that tragic mistake.

The guy should be condemned for robbing her of her innocence though if she was indeed not begging to lose it. With me, any kind of doubt with a chick who is way more shit faced than me is a red flag whether I'm in that situation or a friend of mine goes through with it. And I do give people shit for acting like that. That is what the guy she slept with deserves, a dirty mud smudge on his image.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
Just as an example, suppose your GF was uncomfortable with anal and you were interested in it. Also suppose for the sake of argument that she wanted a ring, you didn't. Would it be acceptable to suggest a trade of one for one? My answer is no, that's rape and that's unacceptable pressure.

Lol that is funny because something similar has happened but she is the one that proposed the idea. Which wouldn't make me a rapist just the John. Women trying to use sex to get what they want damn you which reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_of_Liberia_Mass_Action_for_Peace.
 

Gaborn

Member
I'm not trying to directly analogize them. Rape is obviously much much more traumatic and severe than your opponent getting to Brainstorm a second time. But we don't have a way of weeding out potential rapists from society, so we do need to educate people on ways they can avoid getting into a problematic situation. (As well as educate the educatable guys about what is and isn't ok behavior when trying to get laid.)

Well, I'm glad you at least added the parentheses so you weren't yet again trying to put everything on the victims.

Well there is acceptable pressure and there is unacceptable pressure. If she says no and you tell her you really want it and want her to try it out for example you aren't raping her. You're pushing for what you want but the sex isn't nonconsensual.

It's where you draw the line, and that is a discussion we need to have as a society. If you tell a girl she won't be cool unless she has sex with you, she can tell you to fuck off.

Yes, she can tell you to fuck off but that's still rape in my view. You're pressuring someone to do something based on the power dynamics in your relationship rather than because they actually want to do it.


Lol that is funny because something similar has happened but she is the one that proposed the idea. Which wouldn't make me a rapist just the John. Women trying to use sex to get what they want damn you which reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_of_Liberia_Mass_Action_for_Peace.

Sex is not a right of men, comparing withholding sex to rape is obscene.
 
Lol that is funny because something similar has happened but she is the one that proposed the idea. Which wouldn't make me a rapist just the John. Women trying to use sex to get what they want damn you which reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_of_Liberia_Mass_Action_for_Peace.

There is an interesting thought in this.

Gaborn, what are your thoughts of women using sex as a way to advance their agenda, or to get something they desire? If it isn't literal rape it damn near feels like it! lol
 

Gaborn

Member
There is an interesting thought in this.

Gaborn, what are your thoughts of women using sex as a way to advance their agenda, or to get something they desire? If it isn't literal rape it damn near feels like it! lol

Sex is not a right of men, comparing withholding sex to rape is obscene.

You do not have the right to have sex, and a woman choosing to not sleep with you is not a violation of your body, your autonomy, your dignity, and your sense of safety.
 

kirblar

Member
Well, I'm glad you at least added the parentheses so you weren't yet again trying to put everything on the victims.
The rapists actively looking for victims aren't going to take action to help prevent rapes and protect potential victims. I'm not "blaming victims" here. No one deserves to be raped.
 

mr2xxx

Banned
Sex is not a right of men, comparing withholding sex to rape is obscene.

WTF are you talking about? I never mentioned that or made that comparison, you are connecting things out of context. You stated a situation where I would be the rapist but in reality it was my GF proposed the situation you described and I laughed because it hit so close to home. But go right ahead and accuse me of equating withholding sex with rape.
 
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