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[EatChildren]

So.... this can't launch for more than $250. lol

You're not just buying a box. You're buying a tablet too. A tablet with IR, gyroscopes, wireless video feed, chargable battery, resistive touch screen, speakers, microphone and camera.

People thinking the weaker hardware is going to result in a super cheap price are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Compare Pikmin 3 to Overlord for 360, a similar game. Pikmin looks better and runs at at least 2x the framerate.



I would love for you to explain what high res "flat textures" are. I suspect it will be humorous.

Normal maps convey geometry, flat textures, are well flat. Flat like the ground texture here:

Compare that to a modern game:

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Don't care, don't care and don't care. The game is bright, attractive and a huge sep up from any Nintendo game i've owned before, thats all that most Nintendo fans and Nintendo only console owners wil ask for.

Oh I thought Nintendo fans and Nintendo only console owners (particularly the latter) were actually asking for a system that could compete for third party multiplatform games? Or has that changed now we have a fairly clear idea that the Wii U will be only marginally superior to hardware from 2005?

 

[jonno394]

Oh I thought Nintendo fans and Nintendo only console owners (particularly the latter) were actually asking for a system that could compete for third party multiplatform games? Or has that changed now we have a fairly clear idea that the Wii U will be only marginally superior to hardware from 2005?

I have no idea, by "nintendo fans" i meant fans of Nintendo games, and those games are the only reason I personally buy Nintendo consoles. From the outset we all knew the Wii U was not going to be on par with the PS4 or nextbox.

 

[Margalis]

Normal maps convey geometry, flat textures, are well flat. Flat like the ground texture here:

This is like Wombat on the cagcast explaining what RAM is.

Normal maps are flat textures. All 2d textures are flat. That's what "two dimensional" kind of means.

 

[brotkasten]

I still don't get why everyone's so surprised about statements like that. That the Wii U isn't a full generational leap should've been obvious last year. The console is about the same size as the Wii (a bit bigger, I think) and you just can't put that much horsepower and heat under that hood.

 

[Log4Girlz]

This is like Wombat on the cagcast explaining what RAM is.

Well, if the screens don't speak for themselves, there's nothing I can say that will evoke the proper image in your mind.

 

[Neo C.]

You know, Nintys A-teams, which is basically the core of why gamers care about them at all, have no experience at all on this level of hardware. It will be exceedingly interesting to see if they can even keep up with 3rd party teams who have been working in this space for 6 or 7 years now.

Not to go OT, but anyone else curious about that?

Actually I think many Nintendo developers aren't really interested in keeping up with 3rd party, especially Eguchi and Intelligent System. They are happy when the graphics are good enough and show what they want to show.

Retro, EAD Tokyo, Monolith Soft and the Zelda team could go crazy with the tech though.

Edit: Beaten at least 3x times.

 

[MoogleWizard]

Isn't the Cell in the PS3 quite a bit more powerful than the conventional CPU in the 360 (something like seven vs three cores)? Sony's first party games like Uncharted 3 or GOW 3 look better than anything on the 360 to me, so that alone would make this statement pretty much meaningless.

 

[Takuya]

You're not just buying a box. You're buying a tablet too. A tablet with IR, gyroscopes, wireless video feed, chargable battery, resistive touch screen, speakers, microphone and camera.

People thinking the weaker hardware is going to result in a super cheap price are in for a rude awakening.

I'm not just buying the box or the tablet, I'm not buying it at all. The value proposition is horrible, especially with rumors setting it at $300-400. Although the tablet is a good idea all around, it's think it'll hinder the platform more than anything.

For comparison, compare that tablet controller to the PlayStation Vita. Priced at $250, almost all the same features (can also remote play, but not exactly stream video the same way/protocol), better touchscreen/screen, bluetooth, 2nd touchpad, cpu/gpu, completely portable and independent (vs. requires WiiU and certain proximity).

 

[Log4Girlz]

This is like Wombat on the cagcast explaining what RAM is.

Normal maps are flat textures. All 2d textures are flat. That's what "two dimensional" kind of means.

Since you edited.

Normal maps were created to convey the appearance of geometry where there was none, which previous techniques could only ever appear flat, no matter the viewing angle.

Do you see the pictures I posted? Do you understand the visual difference? What is your prescription, I will mail you a new set of glasses.

 

[Margalis]

Well, if the screens don't speak for themselves, there's nothing I can say that will evoke the proper image in your mind.

You appear to be pretending to have some sort of technical knowledge about things like textures and tesselation and such - when in fact you clearly do not.

"The ground doesn't look better than this random screenshot I found" is fine I guess. That Pikmin 3 uses "flat textures" is just as silly as the internet being a series of tubes.

Normal maps were created to convey the appearance of geometry where there was none, which previous techniques could only ever appear flat, no matter the angle.

Bump maps pre-date normal maps. Bump map textures are flat. Normal map textures are flat. These are simple facts. There is no room for opinion here. Normal maps are 3-channel 2d textures. Period.

 

[speedpop]

Oh I thought Nintendo fans and Nintendo only console owners (particularly the latter) were actually asking for a system that could compete for third party multiplatform games? Or has that changed now we have a fairly clear idea that the Wii U will be only marginally superior to hardware from 2005?

For what it's worth, the only reason why I am buying a Wii U is for the Nintendo games and the fact that my partner insists of having one in the house. My PC can handle everything else with ease and I'm not going to lose any sleep over possible exclusives to the next consoles from Sony and Microsoft. This industry has shown that the exclusive format is on its dying breath unless you enjoy the games that come directly from the hardware manufacturers, or that different bit of DLC via 3rd parties greatly affects your purchase.

The only franchises that I have qualms about are Final Fantasy (which has seen better days) and Dragon Quest (which I'm hopeful will stick to handhelds despite its future looking somewhat grim). But hey, if Dragon Quest heads to Sony's next console then I am likely having to buy it or unsuccessfully wait for a port.

 

[Takuya]

Isn't the Cell in the PS3 quite a bit more powerful than the conventional CPU in the 360 (something like seven vs three cores)? Sony's first party games like Uncharted 3 or GOW 3 look better than anything on the 360 to me, so that alone would make this statement pretty much meaningless.

Good question, I wonder which would win the folding war.

 

[monome]

Optical out is HDMI only?

fuuuuckkkk, I game on a projector and don't use my AV receiver as an audio/video hub...damn.

 

[Tobor]

All this tells me is that the Wii U is going to be left in the dust by third parties yet again once the PS4/720 arrive.

 

[2MF]

Isn't the Cell in the PS3 quite a bit more powerful than the conventional CPU in the 360 (something like seven vs three cores)?

Roughly speaking:

Cell = 1 PPE + 6 SPEs
Xbox 360 CPU = 3 PPEs

The key point is that the Cell's SPEs are very different from the PPEs. The PPE is a general-purpose core, more akin to the cores on a PC CPU. The SPEs are something in between a PPE and a GPU. They're optimized for high-throughput but are less flexible and harder to program. To give two examples, the SPE's instructions can't access the main memory directly, and the SPEs don't do well in code that has lots of branch (jump) instructions such as most AI code.

Put simply, for certain tasks the Cell's cores are superior to the 360's cores and for other tasks they are inferior and much harder to program.

 

[szaromir]

They do? You mean, every game released for the past two years on the ps360 has been Uncharted material?

WTH? Not every game is supposed to look like Uncharted.

That's only partially true. The bulk of the graphics algorithms advancements are not cutting-edge shade-models -reliant. Most things invented for the Orbis/Durango will be applicable to anything from the wiiU to the ipad (to a different scale, naturally).

Some of it could benefit WiiU, but most will be unfeasible to implement in WiiU.

 

[Log4Girlz]

You appear to be pretending to have some sort of technical knowledge about things like textures and tesselation and such - when in fact you clearly do not.

"The ground doesn't look better than this random screenshot I found" is fine I guess. That Pikmin 3 uses "flat textures" is just as silly as the internet being a series of tubes.

The textures in Pikmin 3 APPEAR COMPLETELY FLAT AND CONVEY ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF GEOMETRY

DO YOU SEE HOW THE LITTLE PEBBLES ON THE GROUND LOOK COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY FLAT.

DO YOU SEE HOW THE TEXTURE ON THE GROUND IN THE SECOND PIC LOOK TO POP OUT. NORMAL MAPS ARE DESIGN TO CONVEY GEOMETRY, WHERE THERE IS NONE, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE A SPECIAL NAME.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

All this tells me is that the Wii U is going to be left in the dust by third parties yet again once the PS4/720 arrive.

Absolutely, but I don't believe Nintendo think any different.

 

[Log4Girlz]

You appear to be pretending to have some sort of technical knowledge about things like textures and tesselation and such - when in fact you clearly do not.

"The ground doesn't look better than this random screenshot I found" is fine I guess. That Pikmin 3 uses "flat textures" is just as silly as the internet being a series of tubes.



Bump maps pre-date normal maps. Bump map textures are flat. Normal map textures are flat. These are simple facts.

Since you edited:

BUMP MAPS AND NORMAL MAPS, THE MORE MODERN OF THE TWO TECHNIQUES CONVEY GEOMETRIC INFORMATION WHERE THERE IS NONE. PIKMIN DOES NOT ATTEMPT THIS. SHIT FUCKING LOOKS FUCKING FLAT.

WHERE DO YOU LIVE, I WILL SEND YOU GLASSES.

 

[michaelius]

So not even two PS3's duct-taped together?

Even to reach that power they had to duct tape 6 Wii and you want more?

 

[speedpop]

Typing in caps does not make your argument more relevant. Chill, Winston.

 

[Plinko]

That's nice, but in about a year, the Wii U will be an underpowered outlier compared to the actual console standard.

That's what the Wii was and it worked out fine for Nintendo.

The sooner people realize Nintendo doesn't care about specs the better off we'll all be. They've openly admitted this and I'm not sure why people on both sides of the fence don't just accept it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Just don't let people know in every Wii U thread.

They clearly want to be the first and cheapest option. We'll see if it works out for them this time.

 

[monome]

All this tells me is that the Wii U is going to be left in the dust by third parties yet again once the PS4/720 arrive.

yes and no.

We're GAF, We're not Legion, We whine a lot, They don't care for much...

All those who want to keep on playing on PCs are right, yet consoles will be cheaper and are still the driving force behing AAA games and from the PS4 specs they won't take shit from PCs for some time as devs will have a learning curve with new engines and won't bother with optimization.

 

[Takuya]

Absolutely, but I don't believe Nintendo think any different.

They're completely pinning their hopes on that tablet controller. Only a modest bump in power for the actual console, which will far weaker than the next Sony and Microsoft platforms.

In essence, the tablet is their new "bet" (motion controls last gen), and their selling point is "better looking Nintendo games".

 

[Log4Girlz]

 

[Cosmozone]

All this tells me is that the Wii U is going to be left in the dust by third parties yet again once the PS4/720 arrive.

But what if they bomb? That's one scenario that could sort of save Nintendo.

 

[monome]

They're completely pinning their hopes on that tablet controller. Only a modest bump in power for the actual console, which will far weaker than the next Sony and Microsoft platforms.

In essence, the tablet is their new "bet" (motion controls last gen), and their selling point is "better looking Nintendo games".

tablet controller = 3D in 3DS. (on paper a glass free 3D mobile console is huge)
Well done but not game changer.

yet the added power from DS-> 3DS is nice, so Wii-> WiiU will be met favorably.

But people are moving on and this will sell less than Wii unless thay target BRICS countries more actively thanks to a relatively low price.

 

[cloudyy]

Nintendo should have showed a Killzone bullshit trailer like Sony did. I don't really follow those specs discussions but wasn't the Ps3 supposed to be way more powerful than the 360? What happened to that since I often hear that some multi-platform titles look better and have better framerate on 360. I suppose this is because the 360 is used as the lead platform, so the same happens here with the wii u ports.

 

[Shiggie]

Its an E3 Demo Yo!
Why are people so worked up about graphics?

 

[shinobi602]

You're not just buying a box. You're buying a tablet too. A tablet with IR, gyroscopes, wireless video feed, chargable battery, resistive touch screen, speakers, microphone and camera.

People thinking the weaker hardware is going to result in a super cheap price are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Bullza2o]

Optical out is HDMI only?

fuuuuckkkk, I game on a projector and don't use my AV receiver as an audio/video hub...damn.

I had a problem of my TV not doing 5.1 via optical cable to my home theater receiver, and the receiver does not have HDMI input. So I bought this
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

On topic: This is kind of disappointing for me. The reason why I bought an Xbox 4 years ago was so I can get multiplatform games. I'm afraid I might have to do the same in the future if I buy the Wii U.

 

[Margalis]

I'm sorry but I really have a bit of a problem with people talking about things they quite clearly just don't know much about, using pseudo-technical jargon that is essentially nonsense, and doing so with an air of authority to make others believe they are well-informed.

Normal maps are flat (unless you count mip levels as a dimension I suppose) - what makes things with normal maps look 3-dimensional is the math in the lighting model. Hint - it has something to do with the normal encoded in the texture!

To say that the WiiU only uses flat textures is like saying that the 360 only uses flat triangles in it's polygons. (Reminder: 3 points define a plane)

This is not an argument you can win - I could write you a shader that uses a normal map right here in HLSL. It would use tex2d - a method that samples a 2-dimensional texture.

 

[cloudyy]

Pikmin 3 clearly looks like a game that started development on the wii.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

In essence, the tablet is their new "bet" (motion controls last gen), and their selling point is "better looking Nintendo games".

Well Nintendo will have at least a year on the market before Microsoft or Sony.

If they can launch the Wii U at an affordable price and have a handful of great games, they could muster a very strong lead.

I don't think Nintendo have ever played the long game.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Since you edited:

BUMP MAPS AND NORMAL MAPS, THE MORE MODERN OF THE TWO TECHNIQUES CONVEY GEOMETRIC INFORMATION WHERE THERE IS NONE. PIKMIN DOES NOT ATTEMPT THIS. SHIT FUCKING LOOKS FUCKING FLAT.

WHERE DO YOU LIVE, I WILL SEND YOU GLASSES.

Isn't your second pic an example of a displacement map rather than a normal map?

 

[monome]

I had a problem of my TV not doing 5.1 via optical cable to my home theater receiver, and the receiver does not have HDMI input. So I bought this
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

thanks, small enough and a much better option than moving my furniture to compliment WiiU's arrival.

 

[2MF]

I don't really follow those specs discussions but wasn't the Ps3 supposed to be way more powerful than the 360?

There was a lot of hype about the PS3 hardware mostly due to the Cell, but it turned to be unwarranted for two reasons:

1- The 360's GPU was a bit better than the PS3's
2- The Cell was hard to program and despite having more "raw horsepower" this didn't translate easily or directly into better performance for the task at hand (game code).

 

[Log4Girlz]

Its an E3 Demo Yo!
Why are people so worked up about graphics?

They chose to show off what appears to be a higher res Wii game. During the speculation thread, Pikmin was a license mentioned time and again would be a natural title to blow our fucking minds graphically.

This did not blow it in a good way..

If it is magically supposed to look much better at launch, why show this off now?

The graphics will not affect the gameplay and I'm sure it will be another classic, but ultimately, these kinds of threads speculating about the Wii U's power will spark debate about graphics.

 

[NBtoaster]

Isn't your second pic an example of a displacement map rather than a normal map?

Parralax occlusion mapping.

 

[Margalis]

Isn't your second pic an example of a displacement map rather than a normal map?

Displacement maps are also 2d.

 

[gogogow]

Isn't your second pic an example of a displacement map rather than a normal map?

In Crytek terms, it would be called POM, parallax occlusion mapping, not normal maps.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Isn't your second pic an example of a displacement map rather than a normal map?

Perhaps. Its a more advanced technique with a more sophisticated ground as a result, while Pikmin just doesn't bother to lay anything down on the ground but a flat, featureless, boring ground texture. Which was the original point. It is underwhelming.

All of Nintendo's games shown so far are underwhelming.

 

[blu]

WTH? Not every game is supposed to look like Uncharted.

Why not? I mean, you already established devs have mastered the ps360 (and by conjecture, wiiU) gen inside-out. Why is not every high-budget game looking technically on-par with Uncharted?

Some of it could benefit WiiU, but most will be unfeasible to implement in WiiU.

Then we agree to disagree. I say that some will be unfeasible but most will benefit the entire landscape, wiiU included.

 

[FyreWulff]

Well this is the case for any system really.

I'm fine with Wii U not being enormously powerful, even if it is disappointing. I don't own a 360 or PS3 (i do PC game however) so the step up from Wii to Wii U will still be extremely impressive for my console experience.

Plus, Nintendo games in HD. If they made Mario Galaxy and Skyward Sword look so good on Wii, then they're going to blow me away with upcoming games. The obvious downer though is not getting next-gen third party games :/

Wasn't a problem for the PS2.

WiiU is almost 3 years too late. For the first time ever I want a nintendo console to fail

I will never in my life understand this

 

[gogogow]

They chose to show off what appears to be a higher res Wii game. During the speculation thread, Pikmin was a license mentioned time and again would be a natural title to blow our fucking minds graphically.

This did not blow it in a good way..

If it is magically supposed to look much better at launch, why show this off now?

The graphics will not affect the gameplay and I'm sure it will be another classic, but ultimately, these kinds of threads speculating about the Wii U's power will spark debate about graphics.

Well, I rather them show Pikmin 3, which is playable and at least relatively far in development, than show bullshit CG, like Sony did with Killzone, Motorstorm etc.

 

[speedpop]

All of Nintendo's games shown so far are underwhelming.

For myself personally, they've been graphically underwhelming since A Link to the Past and Yoshi's Island.

 

[Graphics Horse]

In Crytek terms, it would be called POM, parallax occlusion mapping, not normal maps.

I thought parallax occlusion mapping was the process of interpreting a displacement map for the result above? Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Shiggie]

They chose to show off what appears to be a higher res Wii game. During the speculation thread, Pikmin was a license mentioned time and again would be a natural title to blow our fucking minds graphically.

This did not blow it in a good way..

If it is magically supposed to look much better at launch, why show this off now?

The graphics will not affect the gameplay and I'm sure it will be another classic, but ultimately, these kinds of threads speculating about the Wii U's power will spark debate about graphics.

So what though, dont you think it'll improve before it comes out?