The IRC Chat? I thought it wasn't being used anymore, heh. I'll look later.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Wii U Community Thread
- Thread starter Metroid Hunter
- Start date
- Status
The IRC Chat? I thought it wasn't being used anymore, heh. I'll look later.
snowdog1971
Banned
Forget about the graphics, forget about the resolution, forget about the lack of AA. It wasn't a graphics demo, it was a lighting demo. And it was all done in real-time.
I'd also hazard a guess that the processing power behind the Tokyo Street demo was also beyond what both the PS3 and 360 are capable of.
This gen has been a really weird one and has confused a great deal of people - for some reason a lot of people are convinced that the PS3 and 360 are both still powerhouses despite the hardware being 6 and 7 years old respectively.
We know for a fact that the U's GPU, whether it actually is a GPGPU or not, is at least 2 gens ahead of the Xenos and RSX. We know (or at least we can be fairly certain) that the U has 2GB of RAM compared to 512Mb, albeit with 512Mb likely being currently reserved for the OS. We know that even before we take the CPU's architecture, clockspeed, number of threads into account that it will be more efficient thanks to OoOE and have less work to do compared to the Cell or the Xenon thanks to the U having a DSP and having an IO processor to deal with sound and IO. We also know thanks to both lherre and IdeaMan amongst others that the U will have 3 times as much eDRAM on the CPU compared to the 360 and that the GPU will have just over 3 times as much eDRAM.
All you need to do is use your eyes to see that the Japanese Garden and Zelda demos were ahead of anything the current gen systems are capable of even if you ignore the paragraph above.
For some strange reason the power difference between all 3 consoles this gen has confused people, as I've mentioned at the beginning of this post, and people are finding it difficult to believe that a Nintendo console can be a reasonably powerful one despite that being an undisputed fact during gens 5 and 6 with the N64 and Gamecube respectively. The mind boggles.
Dreamwriter
Member
These videos of the exact games I posted screenshots for look great. Heck, Motorstorm looks a hell of a lot better in video form because of all the motion blur that you say launch games didn't have. I couldn't find a video of Madden 07 on PS3 that wasn't a video of a TV or a review (or trailer, I was trying to stay away from official trailers that rarely show gameplay as it truly is). The only issue I have with any of these games in motion is how Genji went overboard with the full-screen AA.
Resistance Fall of Man
Call of Duty 3
Genji: Days of the Blade
Motorstorm
Exactly. What they did show was plainly messy and lazy looking. They should have at least had polish even if they weren't Uncharted level graphics.
IdeaMan, are you allowed to tell us the reasons? Also, two things I wonder if you're able to get info on.
1) Does the Wii U have compute shaders as the "leaked specs" suggest?
2) Can they verify the power supply output?
I imagine that there might be a difference though between dev kits and final units.bequietdrive
Member
I think it's undisputable that the Wii U is a more powerful machine than current gen machines. My only concern is that we won't see massive increases in graphical fidelty because of the gamepads drain on the systems resources. I'm very happy to be proven wrong though!
Apophis2036
Banned
So instead of showing off what the console can really do with an impressive tech demo / game at E3 2012 where their biggest rivals were starting to really run out of steam and wind down for next gen they are going to show their big graphical showcases at E3 2013 where they will be compared to PS4 / 720 launch games...
I dont get that at all im affraid, i simply think none of the big four exclusive graphical showcases (Zelda, Metroid, EAD Mario, Retro) were ready to be shown and that in itself is a joke.
I also find it really strange that they were talking power ('PS360 cant do this Zelda demo') and showing off stunning tech demos In 2011 and then a year later are talking down power ('its all about the asymetrical gameplay') and they show off games which come no where near those tech demos - Wii Fit U, NSMB U, Project P-100, Lego City and Pikmin 3 ect.
I may be paranoid but i think they scaled the power back because of their financial results / 3DS launch disaster / state of the general economy or the console could never run those tech demos in real time in the first place.
Either way E3 2012 put the second nail in the coffin of ever getting the 'core' gamer back on board (the first was sticking with the 'Wii' name).
Exactly. What they did show was plainly messy and lazy looking. They should have at least had polish even if they weren't Uncharted level graphics.
IdeaMan, are you allowed to tell us the reasons? Also, two things I wonder if you're able to get info on.
1) Does the Wii U have compute shaders as the "leaked specs" suggest?
2) Can they verify the power supply output?
Those leaked specs were literally a copy paste job from the early sdk. What's there is correct, though obviously there was very little in the way of specific numbers.
Was it confirmed by anyone we trust that it was from the actual SDK though?
If you don't believe me, believe bg. If you don't believe bg, believe eatchildren. There were others in that thread though if you wish to go browsing again (like lherre I believe) but they were correct.
lwilliams3
Member
To name the ones that I know: Lherre, bgassassin, eatchildren
Forgot stevieP again..lol. Sorry about that.
MadeInBeats
Banned
Yeah, that'd be interesting to know IdeaMan, even if in the grand scheme of things it's totally irrelevant, like prototype power brick stats for example ;-)
I do think that Nintendo just lie about wanting focus on core gamers again, it was just a stunt to keep fans happy, it seems evident going for this E3 that Nintendo will not give up on casuals that easily, after all it was the expanded audience that gave trucks of money to Nintendo. Just take a look to budgets destined to every Nintendo game, they are very small respect the size of the company, Nintendo ideal software is that cost few to make, and generate great revenue. It´s one of the reason why we´ll never seen a project of big/expensive proyects ala Naughty Dog, as they see those like extremely risky, and it doesn´t fit to their software budgets philosophy. That´s the reason why we only saw graphically modest games, it´s not a power problem, Nintendo likes to produce software that doesn´t involve too much money, they are very conservative in that regard.
Casuals don´t demand those big production features, thereof produce games for them is cheap, and because the expanded audience is so big the money return is bigger, it fit perfectly into Nintendo´s budget philosophy.
Casuals don´t demand those big production features, thereof produce games for them is cheap, and because the expanded audience is so big the money return is bigger, it fit perfectly into Nintendo´s budget philosophy.
JordanN
Banned
Lherre did. I think that's how he got his tag, lol.
Edit: In that same thread you replied to him so how did you not know?
medicalmidget
Banned
Supposedly an inside source have told "Go Nintendo" on why Earthbound hasn't come to the virtual console yet. God I hope they get the problems resolved so it can come to the Wii U.
Can't post link because it won't work for some reason, just put "go" and "nintendo" together with .com and you should find the article.
Can't post link because it won't work for some reason, just put "go" and "nintendo" together with .com and you should find the article.
MadeInBeats
Banned
lherre - he commented that they are WiiU specs, not target WiiU specs.
EDIT - 100th person to answer, cant delete post!
I Stalk Alone
Member
I saw the back of the wii u unit still has the wii proprietry cable port for component cables so that means my hd crt will still be used for a few more years yet. I can't stand input lag but the combination of that gamepad with a hdcrt will be a golden generation of nintendo gaming for me. Though i have started playing dolphin games on it with my pc and it is amazing. I am glad I can still use the ethernet adapter as well as my component cable as i will only have to swap the main console out of my setup.
This input lag issue might be a big thing come next gen, as people are now starting to understand, feel and see the limitations of current flatscreen technologies such as display lag, input lag, ghosting, low refresh rates, poor black level reproduction and poor viewing angles compared to crt. Hd adoption really grew the last three years and has been a contributing factor to the wii's collapse (coupled with lack of third party support and kinect) This year will be different though as there will be no display technology (wii u can do 3d) that will hamper it for the next 6 years.
The big problem for Wii U will still be trying to get some third party support, where Nintendo will get a lot more of the no brainer titles, cod madden type games that should be multiplayer that were largely missing or limited from last generation. Nintendo should stick to developing games and partnering with the third parties interested to make their games successful on the platform in ordee to get more multiplatform titles. Traditional "moneyhatting" should be forgotten in favour of better middleware, tech support, and some shared marketing to give a spotlight to these titles. It will be interesting to see if Nintendo's online initiatives such as nintendo direct will help with this.
The other issue will be online and Nintendo seem to be really planning quite a lot and seem to be preparing for some kind of blowout on this service closer to launch but I suspect it will be a focus of next e3 with a flagship mario kart title and maybe a sports title at the helm to show off their online service. Miiverse seems to be just the tip of the iceberg. Spending over 650 million in r&d for the third year means a lot of effort is going into either the new console and the online infrastructure as well as maybe spending money on facilities that will help them transition to the hd level of development in a more cost effective way. There is still the issue of whether other platform holders will come out with their own unique ideas or even competing ideas that mimic their own such as move or smart glass for example.
The WiiU gamepad and wii u console is unique in that it has married status quo elements of previous generation control systems from various consoles and have made them available for use with their games from day one. Motion controls which were popular for wii and to a much lesser extent kinect and move will be there day one. There are over 200 million wii remotes and they should not be forgotten. Second Wii U also brings back the second status quo control method which is dual analog which there are over 100 million consoles plus the PS2 generation to lure back some lapsed gamers who disappeared due to the motion control generation.
The third aspect that nintendo has chosen to include is touch based controls which has been popular for 165million DS and now 3DS consoles. Being the pioneers of this genre way before ios and android or tablet gaming, Nintendo has been on the forefront of dual screen gaming. With over 165 million gamers already familiar with the wii u gamepad concept it is easy to see how the wii u is an evolution rather than a revolution like the wii. Finally but more importantly is that at the same time nintendo addresses the sucess of the iPhone, iPad and android platforms with tgis console by having a myriad of better and more precise control systems that will differentiate the system from those platforms making it a viable alternative for people who want to play some gamed with more than just a flick or tap this to win mechanic. Still there are many challenges to face.
I would say that a system that has answered many of the current generations winners by adding their winning. Formula to one console is a system that allows itself to be accepted by a larger sample of the gaming population will be sucessful but it is not an easy task. There will still be a stigma from the very vocal minority of gamers probably ones who frequent this message board and those who take gaming very seriously who will find the console weak and not targetted at them. Now that more information is known about the system, if there is anything that ninendo should sacrifice to an extent, is the current crop of gamers who are in this vocal minority of maybe half the hd generation or about 50 million gamers made up of ps3 and xbox 360 early adopters.
The cost financially for nintendo as well as third parties to appease this vocal minority is too much of a risk for a nintendo to become the third player to win these gamers over. This is why we wont see a system 6-9 times the power from nintendo. The most we can hope for this vocal minority is that the Wii U will not be 10 times less powerful like in this current generation. Being 2-3 times less powerful is the likely scenerio being played out at the moment and that might be enough for 25% of this vocal minority but for the large majority it will still be a nintendo=weak tagline that nintendo will not be able to shake off.
Nintendo has its work cut out for it with the Wii U and it is addressing many of the hurdles but combined are these hurdles enough to trip over the system as a whole? Only time will tell and things are unsure at the moment but recent history is in nintendo's favour and if the last 8 years is anything to go by is that you should not underestimate a system by how many gflops it can process nor the size of the console.
Diddy Kong
Banned
I believe that site is banned on this site, but it comes from earthboundcentral.
medicalmidget
Banned
Interesting, could someone explain on why the site would be banned?
And to keep the topic relevant, you think people will get angry at NoA and Nintendo for changing some stuff in Earthbound, particularly the well-revered music.
lostinblue
Banned
In truth, Nintendo never abandoned the core gamer, out of the ~60 games they published on the Wii less than 15 can be considered casual (and I'm including series that existed prior, like Warioware and Mario party 8/9).
There were missteps yes (specially NoA not aknowledging some titles at first), but the internet and forums also like to overeact and bitch a lot, even if in reality they really shouldn't. This generation was to Nintendo fans one of the best, Mario was like a renaissance act for the greatness of old, Mario Galaxy being certainly the most creative Mario title since Mario Land 2 and even having a sequel, and most entries got released on the wii in a smaller timeframe than they did on the GC, often the better entries to boot, some new ip too, and some third party nintendo published and funded titles sealed the deal. Nintendo EAD expanded like a sponge these years in order to pump games faster and that's no small feat; most of those games were meant for gamers too.
They're of course aiming for a middle term, but everyone is hence why reaching the end of a game is easy these days and a lot of X360 games are to games what a saturday afternoon movie is to movies, hence the term bridge titles (also gateway drugs). It just happens that Nintendo actually knows what they're aiming for, but everyone is aiming for the same really. Real hardcore games would never sell in the millions range, they'd be like Ikaruga, cult classics. Every AAA or mainstream developer out there is trying to aim at the most players they can with their products they just didn't realize that they just had to do that on the wii rather than dumb their games up a notch; because Nintendo wasn't really dumbing down anything.
Bridge titles are Nintendo's fixation, because from the moment a casual gamer buys and enjoys a bridge title he won't be a casual anymore, and can therefore be fidelized, and they need to constantly try to expand their userbase after all, or at least keep attracting the same public for another go; that's their view anyway and the reason they were all proud of how their "touch generations" public actually purchased DS Zelda's, Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros DS; because that was their "core" objective all along. They know otherwise such public will be taken away by casual gaming on PC, phones and tablet, and they're obviously not interested in competing in the sub $5 market.
Their plan is therefore threeway, every console for them starts with simpler software/playable tech demo's of what's possible (being released by them), not only because understandably more complex software won't be ready but also because they probably don't want consumers to feel the platform is overly complicated as a first impression, then goes for bridge titles and somewhere in there they should start pumping monolith RPG's, Monster Hunter, exclusive Dragon Quest, Fire Emblem games, the usual. It's not something with clear cut boundaries (a lot of stuff is ready when it's done) but it's still somewhat a plan.
As for budget, Nintendo is one of the companies out there that invests in new ideas (uncharted wasn't a new idea, for instance, it was tomb raider with a dude; Nintendo could do that like Miyamoto could do Halo, but in the end... why would they?), of course they won't invest massive money on ideas, but you don't have to invest massive money on most ideas for them to come out and feel fresh. Nintendo really enjoy's that kind of self contained development style, fresh yet not that expensive. And it works can't really blame them.
I feel Nintendo guidance brings more to the table than money does, as seen with guys who worked with them in the past and released great pieces of software with them, gone away and... crash boom bang. It's really a game development philosophy.
And yes, the "building up" strategy went sour on the wii, but it's not such a bad plan and fits well with the concepts of market bubble (launch), bubble bursting (middle of the gen) and saturation (end of gen). Worked for DS.
Go Nintendo posts EVERYTHING. No matter how implausible or plausible, it will be put up there. Its not a credible source... I believe thats why. EatChildren had a post about it in another thread
shinra-bansho
Member
Zelda tech demo again?
The texture seem pretty crappy, the models look low poly, it was 720p30, no AA. It was a static scene.
The lighting was nice. Check that box.
But I really don't see how that demo wasn't possible on the PS360. Agni's Philosophy? Elemental? I can see.
The texture seem pretty crappy, the models look low poly, it was 720p30, no AA. It was a static scene.
The lighting was nice. Check that box.
But I really don't see how that demo wasn't possible on the PS360. Agni's Philosophy? Elemental? I can see.
Microsoft is, at least according to their roadmap, positioning their next console to be both a Windows 8 box and a future route to cloud gaming.
Immersion.
Consoles were doing okay without coming out with anything particularly unexpected before this gen.
medicalmidget
Banned
Thanks for the heads up. Well if this source is any more credible, Nintendoeverything posted it as well.
It will be interesting to see how the two game pad-feature works once it comes out. I mean really, most games nowadays run at 30 fps so unless Wii U games are running sub-30 fps with two pads, I don't see where the angry rants apply. Though for shooters I can see where the trouble is worth it.
I don't know how you could be so turned around in your thinking of what my post said.
Nintendo needs to not focus on comparing graphical high-tech anything in presentations anywhere this/next gen. Comparing to this gen is just lame as its 7-year old hardware. Comparing to next gen is pointless, as they'll lose, lose, lose. They instead focused on their games (mainstream-version), which is about the only thing they could've focused on and still stayed relevant with it for a long-time to come. IdeaMan's point about even if you're not focusing on tech, make sure what you do show is as polished as can be is good, though. Just that they cannot win anything by focusing on Wii U graphical "power," at this point or in the immediate future.
And that is why I ran with them. Now we have people saying these were very early spec but as you see he says they are the true specs.
I still believe these are the specs of the system.
then your setting yourself up for disappointment.
They aren't very specific specs.
They say nothing about clock speeds, amounts, types, etc.
Your predisposition is not the result of that PDF leak.
Oh, the original source (Earthboundcentral.com) is credible, its just that Go Nintendo is 50/50 on credibility. They'll take random emails as sources sometimes. Use GN to find the source, dont use it as the source.
Sorry for going off topic :/
Not really, after I heard Sony Computer Entertainment lost $1 billion I don't see Sony going for cutting edge tech.
No it's not that I don't necessarily believe you. I actually wasn't really keeping up with the thread when that news popped up so only caught some later discussion and never saw if anyone said it was true or whether we we just assuming it was.
Now, someone has to fill in those numbers.
Sony would bleed from every orifice before bowing to "low" tech like Nintendo
lwilliams3
Member
You can still use the info from banned site indirectly by clicking in the source they got it from. Sometimes the link is a forum post.
Sony would bleed from every orifice before bowing to "low" tech like Nintendo
Ok, but If we hear "do to are losses, we will be discounting the PlayStation brand" than I would say, this wouldn't happen if Sony made the PS4 profitable by day 1.
JordanN
Banned
I think it's going to be closer than that.
The tech in Wii U is capable of anything high end graphics cards can do but at lower fidelity. This was not the case with PS2. It completely lacked the pipelines the Xbox or Gamecube had.
Think of it as a PC game on different settings. Low, medium, high. The low can still have the tessellation support that a high end game would run, but other features would be turned down to maintain performance.
shinra-bansho
Member
What exactly the attribution of that filing was never made clear. The numbers presented don't match their FY earnings release and SEC filings.
In any event Sony Corp spent ¥860B on R&D in the past two fiscal years.
Hey I turned 41 this year and became a dad again a few months ago. Total amount of new information I can retain for more than a day = ZERO. Cut me a break huh?!
Anyway, thanks.
I just think Sony really needs to make the PS4 profitable by day 1, I'm not bashing the PS4 since I love PlayStation and will try to get the PS4 day 1 (or Christmas), but I really don't want Sony to go so that's why I rather have a weaker console so Sony can make the PS4 profitable by day 1 and be able to make a PS5.
bgassassin
Member
And he put true in quotes.
I'm seeing a trend of not taking posts in their full or proper context.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38548695&postcount=15297
I think Sony is building themselves a console that has both good power and won't break them (unless unexpected factors knock them out).
shinra-bansho
Member
I don't think profitable, powerful and reasonably priced are necessarily mutually exclusive for any of the platform holders. But I could be living in fantasy land...
I think people misconstrue the price and cost of the PS3 into meaning a good combination of the three is impossible; while ignoring other precipitating factors at the time - cost of BluRay, cost of HDDs, inclusion of EE and GSX for HW backwards compatibility, expensive proprietary CPU.
Ergo, I don't foresee a repeat of $599 price, while losing hundreds of dollars per unit.
If one were to construct a console with the current rumors of Durango or Orbis what would you put a very rough BoM at...?
This doesn't take the second screen into consideration, does it?
It would be a lot, I don't know how much but most likely more than $400, lets just hope Sony pulls the right moves this time.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Want to remark here, that Wii was better for the core Nintendo fan than Gamecube was, unless you're talking about F-Zero, which was a glaring omission.
More games, and more complete games, came out for Wii than GC. GC suffered from rushed games, such as TWW, and even Mario Sunshine. By comparison Wii got several epics, each of them lengthy and big on production values, and stuffed with content.
The truth isn't that Nintendo doesn't make big, expensive games. Certain fans hate it, but Metroid: Other M, was not a cheap looking game. It was Nintendo making a game "like the other guys do": full of CG cut scenes, full voice acting, epic set pieces, etc. Other games, like the Galaxy titles, or Skyward Sword, are also big games, especially SS.
The crucial difference between Nintendo and most other developers/publishers is that Nintendo will put AAA development teams on ANY game - not just the leading, triple-a budget 'hollywood epics'. They put their finest staff on games like Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort, just as easily as they'd put the same people on a Zelda title.
As a result, there is a shockingly high level of polish and quality in what would be shovelware games from almost anyone else. A lot of people ignored that because they didn't like the aesthetic style of Nintendo's expanded audience games and/or are addicted to lush audio-visuals as the only real barometer of 'quality' and 'polish'.
The other problem is that a lot of gamers, frankly, refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of many Wii games because they used motion controls period - even the games aimed at core gamers. So Nintendo's Wii output was branded "nothing but casual junk" by many people.
If anyone, would could argue that Wii U is a more cynical move by Nintendo. They came out effectively marketing as "OK you jerks, here is your Hard Core (tm) game box that plays yer AssCreed and FPS games, complete with an Xbox game pad so you never even have to hold something remotely creative or unusual if you don't want to."
Yet, sure enough, because Nintendo pulled out a Pikmin game and a 2D Mario game (that didn't have the currently trendy artistic / exotic visual style for a 2D game), they got branded by many as just launching Wii U with more "casual trash". What a depressing reality we live in, when 2D Mario is literally called by some (LITERALLY) "not real Mario games". This is how far down the kool aid tank some people in the gaming community have dived, evidently. They are passing out snorkles, son.
JordanN
Banned
No. Nor does it really matter since the second screen doesn't determine shader effects (or any graphics for that matter).
JordanN
Banned
Going back to the PC point, I wonder how many people realize DX11 still isn't the majority?
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
Can devs really afford next gen to not include support for DX10 class GPU's? The Wii U would enjoy healthy support if they do.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
Can devs really afford next gen to not include support for DX10 class GPU's? The Wii U would enjoy healthy support if they do.
Thank god, that's exactly the response I was hoping for.
Speaking theoretically here of course, just for shits and giggles, if Nintendo had have had a regular controller, and put that cash into the machine. Would we be looking at something significantly better?
The only really figure I've heard thrown around (With no real basis, and excluding Pachter's original US$25) is about US$50 to make the thing. Minus a few bucks for a regular controller and lets be generous and say $40 more to add to the core tech.
What might that give us? Anything closer to MS and/or Sony? I imagine not.
Dreamwriter
Member
Well, it does matter, in that you're completely rendering a second screen using the same GPU/CPU. If you just put a map on there or something, fine, but if you are rendering to the same detail/shaders/etc. as on the TV, you're definitely going to be taking a large performance hit, even at the lower resolution.
JordanN
Banned
I mean as in the controller isn't handling any graphics. The streaming/performance is another thing.
In any build (whether it's a console or a car or anything else) you can only have 2/3
I think they problem is that people judge current system back only one year and not the complete library. Is similar to awards actually (in general, not just games), things release CLOSER to the award are more fresh and usually get more buzz to win an award. Even then the last months have been damn good one, for me Xenoblade and The Last Story were my top 10 games of this generation for me. Judging the Wii for me as a whole, I had A TON of good single player 'core' games. Of course some of the games I enjoyed aren't universally like (Arc Rise Fantasia, Disaster: Day of Crisis, for example). I already mention if the Wii U gets this kind of release (I know I am probably the only one asking....but I would love a sequel to Disaster: Day of Crisis!) plus some multiplatform games (Always wanted to play Resonance of Fate, Assassins' Creed and games like Sleeping Dogs) I'll be satisfy
I see one of two things happening: Either Microsoft or Sony(more likely Sony) back out of next gen altogether. 360 or Ps3 keep going another few years, then thats it. No next gen. Sony has lost money on the Ps3 since 2006, never earned any proit until just recently. Doesnt at all sound like theyre ready for next gen.
OR, Microsoft and Sony release cheap almost identical consoles to what they have now, with some Wii U -like minor upgrades. People who think next gen from then will be comparable leap again I think are deluded. I think that happening is literally impossible, at least for the next few years. So yes, I would agree with you.
- Status