-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Xbox World Rumor: Xbox 720 Devkit Specs Detailed, Includes 16-Core Processor
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
GPUs have become much more power hungry though compared to 2005.
You didn't have 250W gpus back then.
Well, you are right about the clocks, but there are other ways of making a faster CPU. A simple way to look at it: a 2Ghz 5 years old C2D with only two logical cores bested the 3.2 Ghz 6 logical cores CPU present at the 360.
Proelite
Member
I meant feature wise, like unified shaders back in 2005.
In addition, 250W TDP for GPU is misleading, Kepler only ever use 150 tops despite having a 250 TDP. It's not far fetched to assume that console GPUs packing the same horsepower as a desktop GPU but at a lower TDP due to better granularity control.
Move the ram off the chips, cut away some of the compute and eye infinity stuff, it may be possible for a 100W GPU in the next Xbox / PS3 to approach the performance of a HD8800 series / GTX 760 gpu.
Why do people continue to use the PS3 as reason more cores = bad. It's a very bad example. There's a reason why the CELL is complicated to work with. It's because the cores aren't the similar and don't act the same like what you would find with the CPU in a X360, Intel, AMD and etc. And, that's why 3rd developers don't want to waste the time on trying to harness it. Thus, Sony is going to abandon it.
Having the ability to run 16 threads, probably more accurate than "16 cores", is going to be needed in 5 or more years. Microsoft is trying to balance between having power enough CPU and GPU(s).
Why go to such elaborate efforts to future proof when GPUs make all of the difference today?
The PS3 example wasn't because of the CPU being complicated, but the idea of offloading GPU calculations to a CPU in an industry that has no experience doing that.
Maybe, because cost/performance ratio? Why do weak dual GPU when you can just throw one powerful one into it.
If the CELL perform like other CPUs, in X360, Intel, AMD and etc., which developers have been working with for years / decades, not make it more easy for them to offload GPU calculations to the CPU? Instead, they have to relearn just for PS3? Shown, not going to happen.
I'm just not seeing the improvement with more cores in existing game engines on PC:
Batman AA CPU
Batrman AC GPU
Crysis Warhead CPU
Crysis Warhead GPU
Fallout 3 CPU
Skyrim GPU
Except for Civ 5. So it must be multicore, but something bottlenecks with a single core late game in large maps. Hell, just removing city states improves it, so something bad is going on there.
Looking at those charts, seems, the games only are design for only 2 cores. Difference in performance seems due to individual CPU design, clock for clock faster, more cache and etc.
Right, and I chose different engines and matched them as best I could. Some didn't have the exact same thing between CPU/GPU benches.
Now I could be wrong. Maybe future game design is better with 16 cores per cost. I don't know. But based on PC game engines I don't see it.
I highly suspect this rumor if future game engines don't need this many cores. Microsoft also makes Visual Studio and directX, so they know would already know this.
It won't happen though, because that 250-280w has to be cooled. To do that they'll need more powerful cooling solutions that will be more expensive and make more noise... also the housing will need to be bigger.
I would predict that if there is any change in terms of power usage it's going down from the start of this gen.
dragonelite
Member
Let us dream so far microsoft rumors have been going to a really nice console.
Better then those WiiU rumor where it went from 3xCurrent gen to equal to less then current gen.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i still think this would be reasonable. i could see consoles being twice as big as they are now for a ~gtx 680 : ]
and i think people would buy them at $400
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
Was the 360 GPU considered all out batshit insane in 2005?
BAW
Banned
Yes, it was the most powerful thing around.
The CPU and GPU were both impressive at launch. They would've been "batshit insane" 18 months before launch, which is where we are rumored to be now.
No, but it was first to have unified shaders architect. I would expect the X720 GPU to offer something unique to have a leg up on future DX features.
Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
So it can happen again and microsoft do have the means to do it, I suppose.
*edit* - I realize that the power requirements for high end cards these days are high, but what if there is some crazy power optimization tech that will be introduced in the nextbox? I can see it happening again. I just hope we get something real sometime very soon.
Pimpbaa
Member
Almost half of the users in this optional survey are still only using a dual core system. And you have 17% who don't have at least a dx10 capable system. Those numbers are pretty significant, and that's just an optional steam survey. I doubt many would want to cut those people off from playing their games.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Actually its 7% who don't have a DX10 machine, 10% do have a DX10 machine, but are stuck on XP.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
38.08% are DX10, 43.35% are DX11. that's roughly 81% of PC gamers that took the survey.
10.36% have a DX 10 or 11 GPU but are on XP. the rest is a negligible minority.
While I'd argue the PC gaming industry is moving to more complex CPU threading (remember, these consoles are more than a year off and are hoped to be around for nearly a decade) ... I think you're making some assumptions on the intent.
In terms of graphics, yes the GPU is big difference maker. I suspect much of the intent here is not for graphics. These upcoming consoles are expected to finally be hitting the dream of a set top box envisioned by Sony and then MS way back when. They will be for all sorts of media, social, and other uses. I imagine having a ton of threads (I'm guess that's what the 16 is probably in reference to, but who knows) is more for having lots of multi-tasking and services up and running, while not stepping on the game in terms of performance. I'd expect several of the threads will not be available to an individual game.
mhayze
Member
It was an advanced architecture and had a more open interpretation of shaders, compared to more fixed function units in equivalent PC GPUs. But it was not as powerful in raw power compared to a SOTA PC GPU at the time (say a 7900GTX). However, Xenos had a clever architecture that allowed more to be done in a closed / proprietary environment, such as in a console. If it was released as a PC GPU, it would have been spanked by the competition at the time.
This was always going to be the case, as far as I'm concerned. MS has spent the better part of the past few years repositioning the X360 as a multimedia platform and it's reasonable to assume this will continue into the next generation, which means supporting the HD format of choice.
abracadaver
Member
I wonder if the next xbox features an internet browser. There needs to be a better way to access youtube, netflix, facebook etc. than the shitty outdated apps.
NemesisPrime
Banned
Lol browser. Welcome to 2005.
16 cores (64 threads) 2.3ghz IBM PowerPC already exist in 45nm
https://www.power.org/events/2010_ISSCC/Wire_Speed_Presentation_5.5_-_Final4.pdf
it's small in-order cores (PPE like) with eDRAM for compact L2 cache (4 cores block with L1/L2 cache = 42mm² in 45nm)
a 16 cores custom version with new process for a console is clearly possible
https://www.power.org/events/2010_ISSCC/Wire_Speed_Presentation_5.5_-_Final4.pdf
it's small in-order cores (PPE like) with eDRAM for compact L2 cache (4 cores block with L1/L2 cache = 42mm² in 45nm)
a 16 cores custom version with new process for a console is clearly possible
Anyone else notice that these rumors have lapped themselves on a plausibility chart ? The xbox will make you toast... yeah well the ps4 will make you breakfast... okay well the xbox will run a restaurant .. and so on.
If we take the most common rumors and paste them together I think we can get a clear image of what's actually going to release next year. I've tossed up my best guess before and it's still pretty much the same-
2 SKUs, a gamer model and a media model. Small chance that the media model has no optical drive but that chance is grown smaller now I think. Price points similar to the launch of the 360 - a 300$ model to be the logical successor to the 4gb slim 360 available now and a 400$ model as the successor to the current 299$ 360. What I think will be up in the air is data storage. I believe we may see a shift to a multi tiered xbox live system , right now we have silver and gold, I could see the next xbox having copper, silver, gold and platinum. Copper would be reserved for extra offline accounts on an active console, silver would be the same as it is now but you'd be able to join online games hosted by gold members at a friends only level , no cost. Gold would be exactly what it is now complete with cloud saves as well as full access to all 360 apps and whatnot. Platinum would have an extra fee for a much larger cloud server as well as expanded discounts on everything you can buy, possibly free beta access to more games without having to pre-order titles.
As far as on console storage goes, I'd wager money that there won't be a hard disc drive , costs are simply too static on that kind of media and as we've seen with this gen it's lead to very little in the way of REAL price drops, they just slap a bigger hard drive on it and include an extra game without you saving any money. No, I think with the Durango we'll finally see consoles embrace Solid State drives, the question is what size is cost feasible for a launch unit. Mass producing these things will obviously reduce costs and both models will have to have enough space to be used as a proper cache for giant data intensive games. I'd wager the 300$ model will have 32gb on board and the 400$ model will include 128gb on board. A standard HDD will ONLY be sold separately as a way to hold more shit at once. Probably in 500gb or 1TB models , and most likely for 3 X the normal price of a hard drive. It's just no longer cost effective to include that with the system, as it's 30-50$ of manufacturing cost that could instead by spent to include a Kinect camera in every box to increase it's use.
I'm still mostly sticking to my idea of a CPU that's essentially twice as capable- 3.2ghz clockspeed still but instead of 3 cores , it's 6 cores or possibly 8 cores with dual threading. So the 16 core rumor, as others have mentioned may just be 16 threads. It's kind of pointless to go higher UNLESS the new kinect is eating up a very large portion of it and the ACTUAL usage for games is closer to the same as the 360.
GPU is up in the air, I think microsoft has a minimum level of visual improvement they've targeted internally but when it comes time to finalize what's going in the box (about 9 months from now) they'll go with whatever they can slap in there for 100$ that uses no more then X watts of power. I get the feeling they have a finite amount of space to build this thing too. I can see a goal of no more then 2X the dimensions of the current slim model if they go for an internal power supply.
If we take the most common rumors and paste them together I think we can get a clear image of what's actually going to release next year. I've tossed up my best guess before and it's still pretty much the same-
2 SKUs, a gamer model and a media model. Small chance that the media model has no optical drive but that chance is grown smaller now I think. Price points similar to the launch of the 360 - a 300$ model to be the logical successor to the 4gb slim 360 available now and a 400$ model as the successor to the current 299$ 360. What I think will be up in the air is data storage. I believe we may see a shift to a multi tiered xbox live system , right now we have silver and gold, I could see the next xbox having copper, silver, gold and platinum. Copper would be reserved for extra offline accounts on an active console, silver would be the same as it is now but you'd be able to join online games hosted by gold members at a friends only level , no cost. Gold would be exactly what it is now complete with cloud saves as well as full access to all 360 apps and whatnot. Platinum would have an extra fee for a much larger cloud server as well as expanded discounts on everything you can buy, possibly free beta access to more games without having to pre-order titles.
As far as on console storage goes, I'd wager money that there won't be a hard disc drive , costs are simply too static on that kind of media and as we've seen with this gen it's lead to very little in the way of REAL price drops, they just slap a bigger hard drive on it and include an extra game without you saving any money. No, I think with the Durango we'll finally see consoles embrace Solid State drives, the question is what size is cost feasible for a launch unit. Mass producing these things will obviously reduce costs and both models will have to have enough space to be used as a proper cache for giant data intensive games. I'd wager the 300$ model will have 32gb on board and the 400$ model will include 128gb on board. A standard HDD will ONLY be sold separately as a way to hold more shit at once. Probably in 500gb or 1TB models , and most likely for 3 X the normal price of a hard drive. It's just no longer cost effective to include that with the system, as it's 30-50$ of manufacturing cost that could instead by spent to include a Kinect camera in every box to increase it's use.
I'm still mostly sticking to my idea of a CPU that's essentially twice as capable- 3.2ghz clockspeed still but instead of 3 cores , it's 6 cores or possibly 8 cores with dual threading. So the 16 core rumor, as others have mentioned may just be 16 threads. It's kind of pointless to go higher UNLESS the new kinect is eating up a very large portion of it and the ACTUAL usage for games is closer to the same as the 360.
GPU is up in the air, I think microsoft has a minimum level of visual improvement they've targeted internally but when it comes time to finalize what's going in the box (about 9 months from now) they'll go with whatever they can slap in there for 100$ that uses no more then X watts of power. I get the feeling they have a finite amount of space to build this thing too. I can see a goal of no more then 2X the dimensions of the current slim model if they go for an internal power supply.
Say goodbuye to 16thread IBM processor in Xbox 720. Charlie at S|A just released article with news that MS has transferred fully to AMD hardware [both CPU and heavily modified 6000-7000 series GPU]. They have ton of problems in manufacture, but Sept 2013 is still the planed date.
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/04/microsoft-xbox-next-delay-rumors-abound/
New thread worthy?
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/04/microsoft-xbox-next-delay-rumors-abound/
New thread worthy?
I heard that rumor a while back. I believe it.
Yeah.... but its Charlie.
In January he speculated that IBM will be making x720 CPU with only 0.1% chance for x86 architecture.Don't really buy this.
Krauser Kat
Member
Cant tell if serious. 7000 Series are all tessellation and dx11 capable. They get pretty shitty in the lower ranges.
Look familiar? from IBM to AMD CPU
If this is true, both consoles will be reeeealy similar. :-/ I want more inovation and risk.
Give us 3D stacked memory, and lots of it!
manzo
Member
The 1TF GPU has me worried. Very worried.
Hopefully Sony goes the other route and gives us a 1.8TF GPU at least. Then I will know which camp I'll jump.
Er? 7000 series is stupid powerful - and on a console with a high bandwidth environment ... It will do things that look incredible by today's standards
360/RSX are pathetic by comparison but they are performing quite admirably
I think the question is... Why the hell would AMD be running into fab issues on a 7000 series part? Either it's a process shrink or it's not really a 7000 series part
This also matches up with another story about Sony & MS agreeing to work together to make things easier for the Devs without even knowing that they agreed to the same thing.
I can't remember where that came from so I can't find the link but I'm sure someone here read the same thing & they can find the link.
I was expecting cutting edge graphic cards compared to what's available on PC.
In 2013 the HD8000 will release, but I guess that's a good thing for PC gamers since the hardware to run next-gen games will be available to them early on.