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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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J

Jackpot

Banned
atheistium said:
Ugh.. seriously? I'm still a gamer at the end of the day. Am I not allowed to talk about my hobby? I'm a fan of tomb raider and I also buy art books. I've got a bunch of art books for all different games. I tweet about it. It's quite clearly not an advert.
Click to expand...

But you see how even an "innocent" advertisement like that for someone's product has created a nagging doubt about any preview/reviews you do for that franchise.

Gosh, if only someone had pointed that out to you earlier! But you made the host take the offending paragraph down...

And if you can read that little bit of my post you can surely read the rest of it and everyone else's and answer their questions:

And instantly I am suspicious. I am suspicious of this journalist's apparent love for Tomb Raider. I am asking myself whether she's in the pocket of the Tomb Raider PR team. I'm sure she isn't, but the doubt is there.
Click to expand...

Please stop pussyfooting around and explain in your own words how that is defamatory.
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M

McSpidey

Member
Untalkative_Bunny said:
Fox news is the most profitable news organization in America. Integrity and objectivity do not sell.
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So who should the internet hate machine send death threats towards to fix this? You can start the FoxNewsGate thread smh.

Structures are built and broken one brick at a time. If enough light is shone at corruption in the right way and at the right time then you get a big enough backlash and with it the opportunity for real positive change. And if your argument is really that corruption is too profitable to stop so don't bother trying then you might as well have said /thread. Also we as a species can just stop trying to improve anything, job done!
 
J

Jackpot

Banned
atheistium said:
Though I'm not sure what this three-page advertorial piece is? I wrote about 500 words on Hitman's marketing plans and some tidbits on the franchise in a magazine for retailers. It isn't a review and isn't ment to influence consumer buying decisions.
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*sigh* Why do you insist on lying? Haven't you learned anything about how internet records never expire.

We've gone from "I never did any articles on Square's content since working for them (though I was never employed by them, I just got paid to do work for them)" to "ok I did write articles but it was just explaining their marketing campaign". Except it wasn't:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498090

There was a whole thread on your MCV piece with a very detailed OP.

Incidentally, when did you work Square? Because near the beginning of the thread someone quotes you as saying "2011 - present", and many of your articles came out in late 2011.

Hitman was a loved franchise, I'm not mistaken in pointing that out.
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Why do you do this? Childishly ignoring the first half of the quote hoping we'll forget it ever existed. You said "It's a triumphant return for a much-loved series with impressive visuals and cinematic story, but it still features the same type of gameplay that made the series so popular." How does that not read like a sales pitch?

And we're very aware that MCV doesn't pitch to consumers, it pitches to retailers. However it doesn't give an accurate impression so they can order the right amount, it hypes up games from publishers that give you enough money (MCV did a joint promo with Squeenix on the Sniper Challenge). Or did you also forget this little doozy:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/edit...y-ignoring-negative-hitman-reviews-re-tweets-

where MCV purposely ignored all the negative Hitman reviews (minus a swipe at Eurogamer for not going with the artificial flow) and the author blew up on twitter saying it wasn't his job to look for reviews when writing an article on reviews, eventually forcing MCV to issue an apology. More of your peers such as RockPaperShotgun joined in to label the shameless promotion of the game as "disgraceful".
 
S

StayDead

Member
See the issue I have here with what Lauren is saying is she's basically trying to put off the wrongs she did as peer pressure as everyone else seemed to be doing it so she thought it was ok.
 
B

bigdaddygamebot

Member
Jackpot said:
*sigh* Why do you insist on lying? Haven't you learned anything about how internet records never expire.

We've gone from "I never did any articles on Square's content since working for them (though I was never employed by them, I just got paid to do work for them)" to "ok I did write articles but it was just explaining their marketing campaign". Except it wasn't:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=498090

There was a whole thread on your MCV piece with a very detailed OP.

Incidentally, when did you work Square? Because near the beginning of the thread someone quotes you as saying "2011 - present", and many of your articles came out in late 2011.



Why do you do this? Childishly ignoring the first half of the quote hoping we'll forget it ever existed. You said "It's a triumphant return for a much-loved series with impressive visuals and cinematic story, but it still features the same type of gameplay that made the series so popular." How does that not read like a sales pitch?

And we're very aware that MCV doesn't pitch to consumers, it pitches to retailers. However it doesn't give an accurate impression so they can order the right amount, it hypes up games from publishers that give you enough money (MCV did a joint promo with Squeenix on the Sniper Challenge). Or did you also forget this little doozy:

http://penny-arcade.com/report/edit...y-ignoring-negative-hitman-reviews-re-tweets-

where MCV purposely ignored all the negative Hitman reviews (minus a swipe at Eurogamer for not going with the artificial flow) and the author blew up on twitter saying it wasn't his job to look for reviews when writing an article on reviews, eventually forcing MCV to issue an apology. More of your peers such as RockPaperShotgun joined in to label the shameless promotion of the game as "disgraceful".
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She's completely full of shit.

Keep fighting the good fight though.

She'll keep playing dumb.
 
T

Tash

Member
I think we should just let this die. I am surprised Lauren came here, I personally definitely wouldn't have had the courage to do so. No matter what I think of the situation, people got hurt in the process and lost or quit their jobs over it.

I think it's time to rest. I find it interesting though that some people, directly involved, made the effort to basically re-ignite this and others are really wanting to let it rest.

Also, the discussion here doesn't seem to get anywhere with people not going to change their stances or opinions.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
Lauren, every excuse is empty and every attempt to dodge a question simply more ammunition against your defence. The internet's eyes are on you, and it's what you will write up in 2013 that'll matter. Hope you made some nice resolutions.
 
E

eternalb

Member
atheistium said:
If there wasn't a legitimate reason for the offending comments to be removed, they wouldn't have been removed.
Click to expand...

There was a "legitimate reason," but it's not what you think. The reason was that they didn't want to get involved in a lawsuit, period. It speaks of nothing of the quotes supposed inaccuracy.
 
S

Suairyu

Banned
atheistium said:
I tweet about things I'm passionate about. I love Tomb Raider. Yes I'm overly enthusiastic. Yes I'm passionate. Yes I have a specific style about me but thats just me. That's how I write. That's my thing. Everyone has a style and you don't read it if you don't like that style. You have the choice. There are people I don't read because I don't like their style and that's my choice.

Why is it not okay to tweet a picture of a very old Tomb Raider book that's no longer in print and I bought second hand online?
Click to expand...
It's not that it's "not okay", no more than you having the new Tomb Raider game on as a background on your twitter is "not okay".

But the point that seems to be missed by you both in your reading of Rab's article and in all the conversation since is that it can cause an appearance of something being "not okay". You don't need us to tell you that your credibility is tied to your perception. If you are perceived to be a mega fan, gushing about Tomb Raider, any work you do on the subject will be seen as suspect. Your relationship with Square Enix regarding Tomb Rader (and other titles) will be seen as suspect.

I don't think a 99p out-of-print artbook purchase would actually do any damage by itself, and perhaps Jackpot is being too zealous there, but on top of everything else, and so soon after this entire debacle, and still with an attitude of "so what? don't like it, don't read it" just suggests to me that you still don't understand why this thing started in the first place, what Rab was actually saying in his article or that you have actually learnt anything from the affair.

To repeat: the point was you should be careful how you appear if you want your readers to consider you credible, whether there is genuine reason to suspect ill-dealings or not.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
McSpidey said:
So who should the internet hate machine send death threats towards to fix this? You can start the FoxNewsGate thread smh.

Structures are built and broken one brick at a time. If enough light is shone at corruption in the right way and at the right time then you get a big enough backlash and with it the opportunity for real positive change. And if your argument is really that corruption is too profitable to stop so don't bother trying then you might as well have said /thread. Also we as a species can just stop trying to improve anything, job done!
Click to expand...

All popular media panders and coddles its audience. Challenging fundamental assumptions or presenting unpalatable material will drive an audience away, even if that material is true and important. Moreover, people gravitate to things that affirm their belief structures. That is the system we have. And it extends beyond the media into politics.

As it relates to game journos, what are the most popular sites and what relationships do they have with publishers? If people really wanted truth/unbiases sources, they wouldn't frequent those sites. It is pretty obvious that just like how fox news viewers like the fox news slant and thats why they watch; readers of popular game sites like the biased slanted coverage, and thats why they frequent those sites. People want to see stories on 'twice the exp with purchase of doritos + mt dew" and "Haol LE xbox unboxing" things.

They also want reviews the match their views of games. It is hilariously sad reading comments on places like Quater to Three when a reviewer gives a big game a low score, or even a not so big game like Journey. The bile and vitriol at outlier game scores is stupendous. Like with elected governments, we get the media we deserve.

And as far as the species advancing, that is only going to happen when/if we transition to transhumans and/or when we create a real mind reading machine to prevent evil fucks/sociopaths from getting elected.
 
M

McSpidey

Member
Just so I'm clear, you're saying none of that is created by a manufactured apathetic society? It's just built in to our species as a whole and can only be "corrected" by removing our very humanity? What if we just keep trying to slowly do better instead? You could start by only going to crappy forums, reading only unpopular reviews of bad games and and listening to the worst music ever heard by nontranshuman ears.

I'll start by not wishing everyone was dead and instead continue to use demand side economics that provides an immediate niche of what I want and through public discourse like this very thread over time leads to a future filled with the contents, people and ethics of a variety we need.
 
J

Jake Tower

Banned
He knows when you're lying, Lauren.

geoffking5ikci.png
 
P

Pachterballs

Banned
yeah, that lauren wainwright has 0 credibility.

also, can someone post the gif of that fat guy spinning round with some copy of a x360 game? I think it was skyrim?

now this+geoff+lauren wainwright = gaming journalism in a black hole
 
A

akidnamededdy

Banned
Ohhhhh Lauren, honey...why are you here? Nothing you've said has helped your case at all. Put your common sense module to use and let this fade away.

daegan said:
Oh for the love of god can you not make your point without bringing her gender into this?
Click to expand...

Err....it's not like I blamed her gender for what she's doing. Calm down bro.
 
A

akidnamededdy

Banned
Really? Has it really gotten to the point where you can't even use a feminine quantifier without people jumping down your throat? I didn't "bring her gender into it." Christ, GAF.
 
D

daegan

Member
akidnamededdy said:
Really? Has it really gotten to the point where you can't even use a feminine quantifier without people jumping down your throat? I didn't "bring her gender into it." Christ, GAF.
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Yes, that's exactly what you did. You used "honey" in a clearly derogatory manner. If you really don't get that you should probably have a really good think before you post in the future.
 
C

CambriaRising

Member
daegan said:
Yes, that's exactly what you did. You used "honey" in a clearly derogatory manner. If you really don't get that you should probably have a really good think before you post in the future.
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You should calm down. It was not used in a derogatory manner, bro. < Like that, it is only a qualifier.
 
D

daegan

Member
CambriaRising said:
You should calm down. It was not used in a derogatory manner, bro. < Like that, it is only a qualifier.
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I'll make sure to remember that the next time I hear someone tell a guy in a saccharine mocking tone, "oh, bro, you shouldn't have done [xyz]". Come on. You know damn well how the poster meant it.

Lauren has plenty to answer for - and it's remarkable that she chose to come here and discuss this, even if she's picking and choosing what she discusses - but shit like that only serves to derail (case in point: the fact that we're discussing this), annoy and offend. Whether you agree that it was or wasn't derogatory (it was) it has no place in the discussion.
 
A

akidnamededdy

Banned
daegan said:
Yes, that's exactly what you did. You used "honey" in a clearly derogatory manner. If you really don't get that you should probably have a really good think before you post in the future.
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Referring to someone as a female isn't inherently offensive. If you really don't get that, then maybe the problem's not on my end.

If my post came off as condescending, it's because it was. I was questioning her decision to come here and start fielding questions. But her gender had nothing to do with that.

If I asked you "Daegan, dude, why are you being silly and turning this into a thing?" would you chastise me for calling you a dude?

Journalistic integrity is a big enough subject for us to discuss without you trying to pull a gender debate out of thin air. Focus, please.
 
F

Filthy Slug

Crowd screaming like hounds at the heat of the chase/ All the colors of the rainbow flood my face
daegan said:
I'll make sure to remember that the next time I hear someone tell a guy in a saccharine mocking tone, "oh, bro, you shouldn't have done [xyz]". Come on. You know damn well how the poster meant it.

Lauren has plenty to answer for - and it's remarkable that she chose to come here and discuss this, even if she's picking and choosing what she discusses - but shit like that only serves to derail (case in point: the fact that we're discussing this), annoy and offend. Whether you agree that it was or wasn't derogatory (it was) it has no place in the discussion.
Click to expand...

Damn, sweetness. What's really wrong?
 
D

daegan

Member
akidnamededdy said:
Referring to someone as a female isn't inherently offensive. If you really don't get that, then maybe the problem's not on my end.

If my post came off as condescending, it's because it was. I was questioning her decision to come here and start fielding questions. But her gender had nothing to do with that.

If I asked you "Daegan, dude, why are you being silly and turning this into a thing?" would you chastise me for calling you a dude?

Journalistic integrity is a big enough subject for us to discuss without you trying to pull a gender debate out of thin air. Focus, please.
Click to expand...

If it had nothing to do with it, why would you choose to use a gendered reference where you didn't need to? It doesn't matter what you would/wouldn't say to me, this is still what you posted:
akidnamededdy said:
Ohhhhh Lauren, honey...why are you here? Nothing you've said has helped your case at all. Put your common sense module to use and let this fade away.
Click to expand...
Which part of this is you just referring to someone as a female? You are using the gendered word as part of your condescension.
It doesn't change the post you made; you're not trying to discuss anything, you're trying to shame her out of the thread and you're trying to use her gender to do it. Just stop.
 
C

CambriaRising

Member
daegan said:
I'll make sure to remember that the next time I hear someone tell a guy in a saccharine mocking tone, "oh, bro, you shouldn't have done [xyz]". Come on. You know damn well how the poster meant it.

Lauren has plenty to answer for - and it's remarkable that she chose to come here and discuss this, even if she's picking and choosing what she discusses - but shit like that only serves to derail (case in point: the fact that we're discussing this), annoy and offend. Whether you agree that it was or wasn't derogatory (it was) it has no place in the discussion.
Click to expand...

No one brought gender into this until you did. Drop whatever crusade you are on about, this isn't the thread for it.
 
D

daegan

Member
akidnamededdy said:
Oops, I was mistaken. It's not a feminine qualifier.

Where's your righteous indignation now?

Get back on topic.
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"Hey guys, I've made myself look like a jackass, let me try and backtrack it now k thx"

My "righteous indignation" is right about the point where I'm actually interested in how she would answer the questions that she hasn't answered yet but as long as posts like yours keep popping up, someone who deleted their entire twitter account due to that kind of harassment and the kind of shit it snowballs into is -not- going to come back here and to be honest I don't blame her or anybody for refusing to engage with a community with completely substance-free patronizing shit like that. That you continue to deny the obvious implications of that post is insulting to my intelligence and that of any other poster in this thread who is interested in actually discussing the issue. You're either being willfully ignorant or just really don't understand the undertones of "Ohhhhhhhhh, honey..." but I really don't believe that.

Honestly, now, here's the same post, but without the stupid gender bullshit, and it's on this very page:
dallow_bg said:
Oh Lauren... sheesh.
Click to expand...

See? See how simple that is? About the same amount of substance, except that poster isn't being patronizing and isn't trying to shame anyone out of here, just offering drive-by commentary.
 
A

akidnamededdy

Banned
daegan said:
"Hey guys, I've made myself look like a jackass, let me try and backtrack it now k thx"

My "righteous indignation" is right about the point where I'm actually interested in how she would answer the questions that she hasn't answered yet but as long as posts like yours keep popping up, someone who deleted their entire twitter account due to that kind of harassment and the kind of shit it snowballs into is -not- going to come back here and to be honest I don't blame her or anybody for refusing to engage with a community with completely substance-free patronizing shit like that. That you continue to deny the obvious implications of that post is insulting to my intelligence and that of any other poster in this thread who is interested in actually discussing the issue. You're either being willfully ignorant or just really don't understand the undertones of "Ohhhhhhhhh, honey..." but I really don't believe that.

Honestly, now, here's the same post, but without the stupid gender bullshit, and it's on this very page:


See? See how simple that is? About the same amount of substance, except that poster isn't being patronizing and isn't trying to shame anyone out of here, just offering drive-by commentary.
Click to expand...

Good God. How many people, including myself, have asked you to get back on topic? And you're accusing me of derailing the discussion.

People in this thread were calling her on her bullshit long before I showed up. Someone who locked down their Twitter account and scurried around the internet trying to remove references to their past work isn't going to suddenly disappear because I used the word "honey" instead of something else.

If you want to get angry about word choice, I could be mad at you for referring to me as a jackass just now. But that's not "stupid gender bullshit," so I guess I should just take it, huh?

If you're so interested in hearing the next half-truth Lauren--I mean Ms. Wainright--I mean Genderless Video Games Journalism Person--is going to tell us, just let this stupid crusade go.

It's infinitely depressing that I even have to say this, but I am not speaking down to Genderless Video Games Journalism Person because she's a woman. I'm speaking down to her because she's come to the very community that outed her in the first place to try and explain things from her side and given the non-answers that she has.

Now please, dude, bro....get the hell back on topic.
 
E

Enjay

Banned
daegan said:
"Hey guys, I've made myself look like a jackass, let me try and backtrack it now k thx"

My "righteous indignation" is right about the point where I'm actually interested in how she would answer the questions that she hasn't answered yet but as long as posts like yours keep popping up, someone who deleted their entire twitter account due to that kind of harassment and the kind of shit it snowballs into is -not- going to come back here and to be honest I don't blame her or anybody for refusing to engage with a community with completely substance-free patronizing shit like that. That you continue to deny the obvious implications of that post is insulting to my intelligence and that of any other poster in this thread who is interested in actually discussing the issue. You're either being willfully ignorant or just really don't understand the undertones of "Ohhhhhhhhh, honey..." but I really don't believe that.

Honestly, now, here's the same post, but without the stupid gender bullshit, and it's on this very page:


See? See how simple that is? About the same amount of substance, except that poster isn't being patronizing and isn't trying to shame anyone out of here, just offering drive-by commentary.
Click to expand...
Are you serious?? Is this guy serious??

On topic: I don't think Lauren gets the point Rab was trying to make in his article.
 
A

Arksy

Member
I don't think there is any libel in the article and even if there was I would say that Eurogamer would have been able to rely on the defence of fair comment as any reasonable person may have come to the same conclusion based around the facts. I might contact some lawyers I know in my current firm's London office. They'll be able to fill me in on the nuances of English defamation law.
 
S

Suairyu

Banned
Pachterballs said:
calling someone honey is derogatory? lol.
Click to expand...
In context, it can be, absolutely.

The Prime Minister of Britain got into trouble when he said "Calm down, dear" to a female MP in Parliament. In context, it was clearly a sexist use of a female qualifier, whether he meant it to be that or not. The use of honey in that post is very arguably the same thing.
 
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