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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?

Pociask

Member
Skyward Sword - most divisive of all console Zeldas? After putting 20 or so hours into it, it didn't seem like it addressed any of the problems of being formulaic, and it made other problems even worse (long tutorial from TP, handholding from TP).

But I've seen people call it the greatest console Zelda ever, and in this thread people saying SS dealt with all the problems. I don't get it.
 
Its very simplistic gameplay looks for the X weapon to defeat the X boss of the dungeon then never use it again only for expansion items but yeah the combat system needs a improvement.
 

Vibed

Member
Its very simplistic gameplay looks for the X weapon to defeat the X boss of the dungeon then never use it again only for expansion items but yeah the combat system needs a improvement.

SS mostly fixed this. Items are always useful across the many dungeons and the combat itself has some depth.
 

Jamix012

Member
I don't really understand why people insist the series is formulaic. The 2D games (or at least when there were some being made) didn't stray much from the formula but the 3D games tend to innovate and establish uniqueness. (I will put twilight princess as an exception, because as far as I can remember it was Ocarina 2.0). If the only 4 Zelda games were SS, MM, OOT and WW no one in their right mind would call the game formulaic, they're all so different but so amazingly fun.
 

Brickhunt

Member
As a fan, I have a lot of opinions on what the franchise need. Knowing that as fan, my ideas can screw up other fans, I can only say: Give it to Retro. I trust they have the expertise twist a bit of the Zelda formula without making the game lose it's identity as a Zelda ga,e.

But since they wont, I should say them to tone down cutscenes and suggest for them to employ more subtle and minimalist storytelling akin to Metroid Prime and Dark Souls. I do love to have more detailed lore on the dungeons in the form of diaries, written stuff that is n important to understand the plot. I do say them to stop having chests with rupees and replace rupees with relics that brings a piece of lore and that can be sould later for rupees. These are useless in a dungeon.

Besides that, I can only suggest them to make a more interesting overworld. And take some inspiration from Metroid Prime series regarding dungeon design.
 

kitsuneyo

Member
The game world needs to be more dense. Every square foot of the overworld should have something worth caring about it in it or exploring (ok, slight exaggeration with every square foot). I don't want to travel through an empty sky or sea, it's boring. And less hand-holding, I hated Fi's constant nagging.

But yeah, Zelda is still my favourite game series probably, even though SS was a bit dull.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Skyward Sword - most divisive of all console Zeldas? After putting 20 or so hours into it, it didn't seem like it addressed any of the problems of being formulaic, and it made other problems even worse (long tutorial from TP, handholding from TP).

But I've seen people call it the greatest console Zelda ever, and in this thread people saying SS dealt with all the problems. I don't get it.

How on Earth does Skyward Sword have a worse tutorial than Twilight Princess when it doesn't really even have a forced one? The motion plus swordplay is the biggest change to the combat since OoT and they don't even force you to play a tutorial learning how to use it.

Twilight Princess forces you to:
hit a scarecrow with every kind of sword slash possible
hit targets with your slingshot
herd goats
sumo wrestle a goat
catch a fish

Skyward Sword forces you to:
z target a guy and run up a wall with the new dash that you need to run up anyway.
 

Box

Member
You know, I really liked the gimmick in Majora's Mask.

The idea that you're able to repeat events adds a lot to quests. It allows them to have some sort of gravity and consequence but without forcing the player to reload their game if they mess up. And you can piece together a story in a much more interesting way by being in different places at the same time. It allows you to see the consequences of failure or inaction first.

In other Zelda games, you can start a quest at any time and finish it whenever you want. People will wait for you to help them forever. You can never permanently fail a quest. That takes away some of the significance of what you do because you never see the consequences. Each quest has exactly one ending to it.

In other RPGs, there are multiple ways to solve a quest and multiple endings, but you can only see one of them at a time. If you want to see another, you have to artificially reload the game. This allows there to be gravity to the quests and a threat of failure, but when you actually do fail or get an ending different from the one you wanted, it hurts the gameplay experience because you have to reload the game. There's no appreciation for failure. This has the consequence that most times, people will still wait around for you to help them, because the game needs to be fair when failure is premenant. Otherwise, you could miss out on a quest entirely by being somewhere else when it goes down.

I've been playing Fallout: New Vegas lately. I like the quests in it, but I don't like that I miss out on part of the game. In one playthrough, I only get to see a piece of the whole story. I like that my actions have consequences, but I don't like that I don't get to see the other possibilities. For example, I chose to fight the Powder Gangers in Goodsprings. Now I'll never know their story because they just shoot me. But of course, I wouldn't expect them to suddenly forgive me and then ask for my help. The consequences make sense for the characters in the game and that's great, but as someone outside the game, I'm not completely satisfied. Another thing to consider is, what if I had left Goodsprings and ignored the Powder Gangers? If I had been somewhere else, would they still have attacked? I'm not entirely sure, but I'd bet that they'll be waiting indefinitely to attack the same way that Caesar's Legion is waiting indefinitely to attack Hoover Dam. When applied to all the quests in the game, it means that not a single interesting thing happens in all of the Mojave unless I'm there to affect it in some way.

But if you can travel through time within the game and effectively control an avatar that transcends the world of the game, you can have both. You can have a completely realistic and independent world, full of important events and consequences that happen whether you're there or not. You can have all of that, but without missing any of the content at all. In addition, it allows you to tells stories and organize quests by piecing together information out of order.

Now I don't think Majora's Mask gets all of that right, but the foundation is there. The basic concept is down, and they even add the other dimension of inhabiting the lives of other people. But the thing is, this concept will never be explored in more detail because it came from Zelda, where it really didn't belong, and also because as a concept, it feels like a gimmick. It's hard to approach the idea of this sort of time travel in a way that doesn't seem contrived. For a Zelda game in particular, it would look like they were just reusing the same gimmick even if it was really brilliant.

So it's basically dead. Majora's Mask will be the only Zelda game of its kind and probably the only game of its kind period short of a miracle. But yeah, if I had the ability to choose which direction that Zelda could go in, I'd leave behind Hyrule, Ganon, and the Triforce and follow Majora's Mask
 

Pociask

Member
How on Earth does Skyward Sword have a worse tutorial than Twilight Princess when it doesn't really even have a forced one? The motion plus swordplay is the biggest change to the combat since OoT and they don't even force you to play a tutorial learning how to use it.

Twilight Princess forces you to:
hit a scarecrow with every kind of sword slash possible
hit targets with your slingshot
herd goats
sumo wrestle a goat
catch a fish

Skyward Sword forces you to:
z target a guy and run up a wall with the new dash that you need to run up anyway.

I guess we have different definitions of tutorial section. I think of them as ending when you are actually going toward the first dungeon.

I'd add in, while Skyward Sword doesn't force you to do the combat training, it's still forced if you want to learn how the brand new, highly touted as the most important part sword fighting mechanics work. As such mechanics are not always intuitive, I'd still consider this forced (even if it is skippable on replaying the game).
 

Branduil

Member
Skyward Sword had some great ideas(sword controls, dungeon-like design in the overworld) mixed in with some bad ones(ridiculous and constant interruptions, no connected overworld, cheap time-wasting obstacles).
 

RagnarokX

Member
I guess we have different definitions of tutorial section. I think of them as ending when you are actually going toward the first dungeon.

I'd add in, while Skyward Sword doesn't force you to do the combat training, it's still forced if you want to learn how the brand new, highly touted as the most important part sword fighting mechanics work. As such mechanics are not always intuitive, I'd still consider this forced (even if it is skippable on replaying the game).

A tutorial section has to be made up mostly of, you know, actual tutorials. Skyward Sword's intro is an introduction to the plot and characters. That doesn't make it a tutorial. A tutorial is when they teach you game mechanics in a structured manner. Skyward Sword has you running around Skyloft trying to solve a small mystery, and it does it by just throwing you at it.

It's forced... unless you chose not to do it. The combat tutorial is not forced because you CAN learn by doing if you want. By your logic looking at the controls in the manual or looking up an online FAQ is a forced tutorial. It's skippable the first time you play.
 

PKrockin

Member
I guess we have different definitions of tutorial section. I think of them as ending when you are actually going toward the first dungeon.

I'd add in, while Skyward Sword doesn't force you to do the combat training, it's still forced if you want to learn how the brand new, highly touted as the most important part sword fighting mechanics work. As such mechanics are not always intuitive, I'd still consider this forced (even if it is skippable on replaying the game).

I don't know if I can take these ridiculous Zelda discussions anymore. Look, just say that you didn't like the expository text, setting up the characters, exploring the first few areas, or the pacing. I don't know why in the world you're calling parts of the game like fighting your way through the cave in Skyloft or the entirety of Farin Woods a tutorial, except to fit preconceived notions that Zelda has too many tutorials nowadays. There's ONE tutorial that you can't feasibly skip.
 

BD1

Banned
The series needs to get back to its exploration roots.

Personally, I'm hoping Zelda Wii U used the GamePad as an Ancient Map (or something like that) with a big focus on using the map to explore Hyrule. I liked Syward Sword just fine, but it was all so obvious.

The dungeons were very good, it's what happens before and after those dungeons that needs work.
 

LukeTim

Member
SS was probably the most disappointing Zelda I have ever played.

What made Zelda such an engrossing franchise for me was that, with each game, it managed to create a believable world, rich in character and detail; a world in which I wished to spend so much of my time. OoT did this well, MM mastered it, WW continued the trend, and since TP it has been going downhill. SS makes me wonder whether the developers now really understand what Zelda is about. Zelda was never about the story, or cinematics, it was about exploration and total immersion in this fantastic world which has a life of its own. A world which doesn't necessarily revolve around the player and his/her story... and as a result feels like a real place worth visiting, even if only virtually.

The most effective way of conveying this sort of feeling is side quests and mini games. These give the player something to do besides the story, perhaps when they're a bit bored of it, and make them realize that this is a world that isn't simply there to service a story... and this is world which somebody worked very hard to create.

In this respect, SS was a pathetic attempt at a Zelda game, I haven't finished it, admittedly, but the side quests and mini games on offer to me thus far have been very lacking. It is a fantastic action/adventure game, but it is a terrible Zelda game.

I could go on (and have done so in the past) about this at length, but I am currently at work and really shouldn't be here. >_>
 

RagnarokX

Member
SS was probably the most disappointing Zelda I have ever played.

What made Zelda such an engrossing franchise for me was that, with each game, it managed to create a believable world, rich in character and detail; a world in which I wished to spend so much of my time. OoT did this well, MM mastered it, WW continued the trend, and since TP it has been going downhill. SS makes me wonder whether the developers now really understand what Zelda is about. Zelda was never about the story, or cinematics, it was about exploration and total immersion in this fantastic world which has a life of its own. A world which doesn't necessarily revolve around the player and his/her story... and as a result feels like a real place worth visiting, even if only virtually.

The most effective way of conveying this sort of feeling is side quests and mini games. These give the player something to do besides the story, perhaps when they're a bit bored of it, and make them realize that this is a world that isn't simply there to service a story... and this is world which somebody worked very hard to create.

In this respect, SS was a pathetic attempt at a Zelda game, I haven't finished it, admittedly, but the side quests and mini games on offer to me thus far have been very lacking. It is a fantastic action/adventure game, but it is a terrible Zelda game.

I could go on (and have done so in the past) about this at length, but I am currently at work and really shouldn't be here. >_>

OoT's story and characters are completely throwaway. Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have some of the best characters in the franchise.

I'll give you that Skyward Sword lacks good sidequests, but the core game is very good. Wind Waker was a great game, but they dropped the ball on both the core game and sidequests. Majora's Mask only had 4 dungeons. Skyward Sword has 7, 5 of which are great.
 

Myriadis

Member
Knowing the initial reactions to the Wind Waker art style, I definitely know that Nintendo shouldn't overhaul the series.
But I would like to see a Zelda 1-like structure again, which means: The first three dungeons are completable in any order and the items found there are used to get through the other ones. And an intro like AlttP. Or Beyond Good and Evil. The other stuff can stay.

RagnarokX said:
I'll give you that Skyward Sword lacks good sidequests, but the core game is very good. Wind Waker was a great game, but they dropped the ball on both the core game and sidequests. Majora's Mask only had 4 dungeons. Skyward Sword has 7, 5 of which are great.
The funniest thing is that the sidequests in Skyward Sword are the best since Majoras Mask (haven't played the DS ones, though). And TP and WW have much less sidequests.
 

ameleco

Member
People have already really talked about the problems with the tutorials and hand holding at length so I'll skip that and move onto what I really want in a new Zelda.

This sort of jumps off the "barren over world" that people mention. The over world itself sucks because as people said, there's nothing to do. Sure every once in awhile you'd get a heart piece or something and that would be it, but lets face it, heart pieces suck as upgrades. This brings me to my idea of better upgrades: Majora's Mask had a system where the upgrades were meaningful and this made doing certain side quests more awesome. If there was some sort of system or hook in place in the next Zelda that brought about better upgrades, they could be thrown throughout the over world and so there would be a reason to explore it and perhaps, maybe it would not be so barren anymore.

I also want to bring back interconnected worlds. I realize that for Skyward Sword it made sense story wise to not have connected worlds at all, but it just didn't click with me from a game play standpoint and I want it them back.

Finally, I want the combat to stay as deep as it was in Skyward Sword. I realize motion controls aren't everyone's favorite (heck I could not stab for the life of me on command), but the combat was way more satisfying then press A over and over again. Either create a similar system with buttons, or fix the motion controls.

So yeah, in general, better rewards for side quests (and probably more of them to make exploration worth it), interconnected over world, less hand holding/tutorials (which would include a less a linear game while we are at it), and deep combat. In b4 none of this actually happens except maybe motion controls staying.
 

Violet_0

Banned
Skyward Sword - most divisive of all console Zeldas? After putting 20 or so hours into it, it didn't seem like it addressed any of the problems of being formulaic, and it made other problems even worse (long tutorial from TP, handholding from TP).

But I've seen people call it the greatest console Zelda ever, and in this thread people saying SS dealt with all the problems. I don't get it.

most seem to like SS, quite a few people don't. Personally, I think it takes the crown from TP as the worst 3D Zelda yet. Franchise fatigue is certainly part of the reason, but I also believe Nintendo is taking the series in the wrong direction. MM and to a lesser extend WW are still my favorite console Zeldas and I wish the next game is going to be more like those two
 

King_Moc

Banned
Its very simplistic gameplay looks for the X weapon to defeat the X boss of the dungeon then never use it again only for expansion items but yeah the combat system needs a improvement.

The dungeons in Zelda are far, far more complex than what you find in most 'hardcore' games. And Skyword Sword fixed the problem you mentioned anyway.
 

Branduil

Member
It seems like most people are more or less happy with the dungeons in Zelda games. It's everything outside of them that causes disagreements.
 

mantidor

Member
There are many ways that the game can be formulaic and in many ways it is.

such as? besides having dungeons and items I don't see it. And if the franchise were to get rid of that people would complain, and rightly so because it is what makes Zelda the way it is.

The thread feels like it can be summarized as this: I want everything to change, but also nothing to change, because when it changes is terrible. its no wonder no matter what Nintendo does, certain part of the "fanbase" will be eternally unhappy.
 

Woffls

Member
Zelda games are more differentiated than most game series, in my opinion. Majora's Mask has one of the most radical game structures to date, Wind Waker is one of the few games that makes discovery feel like a worthy adventure, Skyward Sword had the motion stuff and a story I cared about, Twilight Princess stands out because of the dark overtones, and Ocarina is Ocarina.

The reason we think the series isn't progressive is because we pick out the things we recognize, and identify it that way because we already have that reference point. It's difficult to create new reference points and reconcile what we don't already know, so when you hear a familiar "hey listen!", that takes priority over milk being a substitute for alcohol... or something.

If The Legend of Zelda series ever dropped the tunic, songs, Epona, hookshot etc in favour of some shitty steampunk setting, it could the worst game in the series and the majority of gamers would be far more interested in playing it. Just because they associate fairies and tunics with "that game I still don't care about".
 

FaintDeftone

Junior Member
Exploration is definitely the key element to any Zelda game, and the series has not done it as well since Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time.

-Wind Waker's sea was kinda boring.

-Twilight Princess didn't feel as expansive and felt sort of linear. Far less secrets.

-Skyward Sword had basically a large hub world that simply warped you to where ever you needed to go. As much as I loved the game, this was a shame.

-Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks had overworlds that felt too automated and there was really nothing to explore or stop to smell the roses.

The next Zelda game needs to bring back a big expansive world packed with tons of secrets and mystery. It needs to be more open world and less hand-holding.
 

Metazoid

Banned
such as? besides having dungeons and items I don't see it. And if the franchise were to get rid of that people would complain, and rightly so because it is what makes Zelda the way it is.

The thread feels like it can be summarized as this: I want everything to change, but also nothing to change, because when it changes is terrible. its no wonder no matter what Nintendo does, certain part of the "fanbase" will be eternally unhappy.

READ THIS

http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/

It's so funny that gamers are so narrowminded to think a few minor things are what make up a particular series.
 

PokéKong

Member
What if they took a hint with from the growing influence of "roguetype" indie games popping up, even ones like Isaac that also draws influence from the original Zelda, and make a new game that pays homage to the original themselves, dropping the player in a world giving them truly minimal instruction and a vast amount of freedom if they are willing to explore and experiment.
 

Metazoid

Banned
Exploration is definitely the key element to any Zelda game, and the series has not done it as well since Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time.

-Wind Waker's sea was kinda boring.

-Twilight Princess didn't feel as expansive and felt sort of linear. Far less secrets.

-Skyward Sword had basically a large hub world that simply warped you to where ever you needed to go. As much as I loved the game, this was a shame.

-Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks had overworlds that felt too automated and there was really nothing to explore or stop to smell the roses.

The next Zelda game needs to bring back a big expansive world packed with tons of secrets and mystery. It needs to be more open world and less hand-holding.

Sailing the ocean in Wind Waker was probably one of the better examples of exploration in Zelda.
 

Nekofrog

Banned
ALTTP is the best Zelda because you start it up, and within 5 minutes you have your sword and shield and your skills are already being put to test in a dungeon. within.5.minutes

3d zeldas are pretty much universally awful in their inability to lift off.
 

ErichWK

Member
What I want more than anything, is Zelda to start having good soundtracks again. I found Skyward Sword (with the exception of 1 or 2 tracks) to be incredibly dull and unmemorable, music wise.
 

Mazzo

Member
Hand holding and overexposure of the story are my only complaints about the recent Zelda games. It would be glorious to go back to the enigmatic feeling the early games passed (yeah, like Dark Souls).
 

The Lamp

Member
It doesn't need an overhaul per se; it needs to be modernized. There are too many archaic elements to its design, from sidequests, to dungeons, to NPCs. I'd elaborate but a lot of it's already been said.

For one thing I want full damn 3D camera control in the next game. Taking out in TP and SS was just sad (although a consequence of the controller).
 

GloveSlap

Member
I know it might be sacrilege to some, but they should look to Skyrim/Oblivion for inspiration on the over world and towns. Keep the Zelda feel, dungeons, and gameplay.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
ALTTP is the best Zelda because you start it up, and within 5 minutes you have your sword and shield and your skills are already being put to test in a dungeon. within.5.minutes

3d zeldas are pretty much universally awful in their inability to lift off.

The opening is one of the reasons I consider LTTP to be the most "perfect" expression of the basic Zelda formula of any game in the series.

Of course, I think it would be difficult to replicate the sheer efficiency of LTTP's intro in part because 3D games by their nature require a bit more explanation of everything you can do in a 3D environment.

In spite of the hate it got, I actually thought Skyward Sword's intro was the second best of the 3D games, as its "tutorial" act is actually important for the overall plot of the game and setting up characterization for the primary cast members who remain relevant for the entire game.

My favorite start-up section for a 3D Zelda is The Wind Waker; I like the Forsaken Fortress, go figure, and felt that TWW came very close to the LTTP ideal but translated into a 3D and physically larger world.
 
It is formulaic, but that's why I like it. I know I'm getting a solid action-adventure with enough familiarity to understand it, but plenty of new features to surprise. Only thing I'd change is make the tutorial optional and those pointless item descriptions. Other than that, SS was a 10/10 game.
 
I'm surprised people like SS. I thought it was an absolutely mediocre game. Constant backtracking, horrible story, those dumb test puzzles, uninspired combat, fighting the same boring boss again, and again and again. Those are just the major grievances, not to mention the incessant unskippable crap every time you catch an insect and the grating noise if you're at low health.
 

Real Hero

Member
I lost interest in Zelda once they started playing differently, the DS games and SS put me off completely. It's boring I know, but give me slight variations of the OOT formula everytime.
 

Branduil

Member
Wind Waker would be the best 3D Zelda if they hadn't cut out two dungeons and replaced them with that awful triforce quest.
 

Duxxy3

Member
When it comes to Zelda and Metroid, i am perfectly happy with formulaic.

It's when they shift from the established formula that i can annoyed.
 

The Boat

Member
I guess we have different definitions of tutorial section. I think of them as ending when you are actually going toward the first dungeon.

I'd add in, while Skyward Sword doesn't force you to do the combat training, it's still forced if you want to learn how the brand new, highly touted as the most important part sword fighting mechanics work. As such mechanics are not always intuitive, I'd still consider this forced (even if it is skippable on replaying the game).

This is the ridiculous kind of definition I've been reading in Zelda threads for ages. It's why people are always complaining the game is slow and the start is boring. Instead of exploring the town, talking to the people, enjoying the writing and what the game is throwing at you lots of people seem to think the game only starts when you're in a dungeon. Which is absolutely absurd.
 
I think the visions for Zelda is backwards compared to the 80s and 90s. Now there is like 10 hour tutorials, on rails handholding along with a barren overworld and tiresome fetch quests.

I want better rewards in the treasure chests after solving a puzzle, and not just oh like I found 20 rupees, I am overwhelmed with joy!
 

FaintDeftone

Junior Member
Sailing the ocean in Wind Waker was probably one of the better examples of exploration in Zelda.

Approaching a new island and seeing it emerge in the distance was really awesome. However, the rest of the ocean was so empty and boring to explore. Not to mention the enemies that popped up while sailing annoyed the piss out of me. Still a fantastic game, but searching for the triforce pieces at the end was awful.
 

mantidor

Member
READ THIS

http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/

It's so funny that gamers are so narrowminded to think a few minor things are what make up a particular series.

lol at those save Zelda articles, not the first one and certainly not the last one.

And I thought we were talking about what has been formulaic about the series, as has been said, it's pretty hard to find a series with such radical changes introduced with each new iteration, while maintaining certain consistency.
 
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