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[Razgreez]

1. You think MS won't have a tools advantage, lol. MS tools will be better.
2. The 3gb of ram thing is just speculation, rather stupid speculation, full windows does not need that much ram so xbox 720 won't need anywhere near that much.

It can and likely will. This memory is specifically there to avoid swapping to the rest of the main memory. Along with the basic OS services one will likely be running multiple applications which may or may not bloat over time. These applications could literally eat up GBs of memory quite quickly. It's a simple, definite and logical scenario

This is why Tools are important, and nobody is better than MS when it comes to tools. And so far all the insiders have said they have heard that the 720 is easier to dev for.

As for the rest, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Without sources "insiders have said" means nothing

Kinect will not be a mega focus, MS can already tell from the last few years that while it initially was a huge success, it is not selling that well and neither are the games. It will still be there for the people that actually like it, but MS has said time and time again that they are looking to focus more on core games.

Recent history contradicts what you're typing

 

[davious88]

XBox division doesn't operate the same way it used to operate.

It's not even the same Ms anymore.

 

[Busty]

I really want to ask what's being going on in this thread since it started but I have a feeling that no one really knows for sure at this point.

 

[eso76]

If these specs are real and if MS is launching this year then they're final.

not necessarily, xbox360 gpu was upgraded 3 months before release

then again, a much faster gpu would probably be wasted with the limited bandwidth

 

[Snubbers]

Wow guy must have been committed to his vision. I really couldn't care which way my company goes as long as Im not in danger of losing my job or anything.

He probably just got another job somewhere else that was more to his liking..

I don't think he left and is now destitute just to appease his conscience at the direction change at Xbox..

 

[Fafalada]

(It seems an advanced video/audio block are included, we have to assume normal HW accelerated audio/video is included in Orbis HW, that's a given)

Why would that be a given (the last console that had hw-accelerated video was PS2), and what would be the benefit of having it if it's really just for media-box functionality?

 

[Alx]

Kinect will be a big focus, IMO.

I suppose they will have to communicate a lot on kinect, since for now it's the only thing that we know for certain their competitors don't have (unless they have a big surprise for us). Even if it's only used for the cool factor, it will contribute to the image the audience will have of their product. Just like Siri was presented as a big feature of the iphones, even if it's not the most used one.

 

[alexandros]

Next generation is increasingly look like it will be won on controls. The system with the most intuitive AND precise controls will be the best received.

Steambox it is then!

 

[Jadedx]

I wouldn't be so sure about this. It's at most 3GB but they could easily pare that down by .5-1GB.

There is no reasonable way the console will use anywhere near 3gb for the OS, it probably won't use half of that, even with the set top features and kinect it wont need that much, a dvr/set top does not need that much ram to operate. Kinect does not need much ram either.

Kinect will be a big focus, IMO.

If MS is all about profit then core games is the way to go right now, other than a few initial kinect titles none have been mega profitable. Core games is how they make their money, especially since core gamers tend to spend more money on video games while casual kinect players buy 1 to 2 games per year, if that much.

 

[Matt]

Kinect will not be a mega focus, MS can already tell from the last few years that while it initially was a huge success, it is not selling that well and neither are the games. It will still be there for the people that actually like it, but MS has said time and time again that they are looking to focus more on core games.

This is not correct.

 

[Proelite]

Yawn.

 

[StevieP]

This is not correct.

Hehe no shit

 

[Jadedx]

This is not correct.

Which part? That kinect will not be a mega focus, or that MS is focusing on core games?

 

[Rikyfree]

Grrr I don't care! Cmon, MS and Sony, show us teh games! Just got done watching the
Watchdogs demo again and I must have more!

 

[AOC83]

This is not correct.

The Kinect part? Well i would agree on that, Kinect already lost most of it´s steam. Gimmicks like this wear off fast.
I wouldn´t count on it as a system seller if i were Microsoft.

 

[deanos]

True.

 

[1st Course]

So the PS4 has a:
-Better GPU
-CPU that is entirely focused on gaming
-Faster Ram

Yet we are going to believe that the new Xbox will be more powerful because apparently MS has a little secret part that is magically going to made up for all the above disadvantages? Wtf am I reading??

 

[Brad Grenz]

There is no reasonable way the console will use anywhere near 3gb for the OS, it probably won't use half of that, even with the set top features and kinect it wont need that much, a dvr/set top does not need that much ram to operate. Kinect does not need much ram either.

If hard disk access is in contention when the system is trying to play a game, record multiple shows and serve video streams to multiple clients all at once, having a large pool of RAM to buffer streams in will be really fucking important.

If MS is all about profit then core games is the way to go right now, other than a few initial kinect titles none have been mega profitable. Core games is how they make their money, especially since core gamers tend to spend more money on video games while casual kinect players buy 1 to 2 games per year, if that much.

You and I may believe that, and all the old guard who launched Xbox may believe that, but the guys in charge now may just be salivating over Wii's profits and renewable service revenue from media.

 

[Jadedx]

The Kinect part? Well i would agree on that, Kinect already lost most of it´s steam. Gimmicks like this wear off fast.
I wouldn´t count on it as a system seller if i were Microsoft.

exactly, in the last 2 years kinect barely sold what it did in it's first few months. And the game sales aren't that great.

 

[darkistheway]

The 3gb of ram thing is just speculation, rather stupid speculation, full windows does not need that much ram so xbox 720 won't need anywhere near that much.

I don't understand why everyone thinks 3 GB of RAM for the OS is so far-fetched. The reserved RAM (whatever it ends up being - I predict 2 GB) will be there so all the slow-ass Xbox 360 apps can hang out and do nothing while you game. It's probably cheaper to do it that way rather than make fast and efficient applications.

That last bit was sarcasm, by the way.

 

[iamshadowlark]

For the love of god, secret sauce has to be the stupidest name I've ever heard.

Anyway so is the rumor now, that their is extra HW that's not in the spec sheet nor the diagram? Or is that just "inside info."?

 

[StevieP]

exactly, in the last 2 years kinect barely sold what it did in it's first few months. And the game sales aren't that great.

You and Microsoft don't see eye-to-eye.

This "secret sauce" stuff drives me nuts. Yes, AMD did have more engineers on the Microsoft project. Yes, the hardware in the Durango is more customized than Sony's. Yes both of their dev kits are more powerful than final hardware will be.

However, consider that even the Wii U had "secret sauce" (ARM core, DSP, etc) to offload certain tasks off the main hardware.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The Kinect part? Well i would agree on that, Kinect already lost most of it´s steam. Gimmicks like this wear off fast.
I wouldn´t count on it as a system seller if i were Microsoft.

exactly, in the last 2 years kinect barely sold what it did in it's first few months. And the game sales aren't that great.

I'm not sure how either of you read that from that exchange...

 

[Brad Grenz]

So the PS4 has a:
-Better GPU
-CPU that is entirely focused on gaming
-Faster Ram

Yet we are going to believe that the new Xbox will be more powerful because apparently MS has a little secret part that is magically going to made up for all the above disadvantages? Wtf am I reading??

Haven't you heard? Next Gen is all about who has the better Jizz Wizards.

 

[gofreak]

So the PS4 has a:
-Better GPU
-CPU that is entirely focused on gaming
-Faster Ram

Yet we are going to believe that the new Xbox will be more powerful because apparently MS has a little secret part that is magically going to made up for all the above disadvantages? Wtf am I reading??

I think the argument is:

1) there are some specific tasks done in fixed function hardware that might perform >= similar on Orbis (although there seems to be some lack of awareness of extra units Orbis might or might not have)

2) for memory bound algorithms on the GPU the eSRAM will be another tool programmers can use to avoid stalls

Arguments which if made with context seem plausible and fair enough. However I don't think there's any magic bullets. Any 'magic numbers' or magic multipliers are not general case numbers.

 

[Zabka]

Sacrificing power to pack in Kinect at launch sounds like my nightmare scenario for an Xbox successor.

 

[iamshadowlark]

You and Microsoft don't see eye-to-eye.

This "secret sauce" stuff drives me nuts. Yes, AMD did have more engineers on the Microsoft project. Yes, the hardware in the Durango is more customized than Sony's.

However, consider that even the Wii U had "secret sauce" (ARM core, DSP, etc) to offload certain tasks off the main hardware.

This.

 

[darkistheway]

I'm not sure how either of you read that from that exchange...

It's called confirmation bias.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Even if there is a tenable power difference it still won't be manifest in third-party games. GAF will care (as I will) but Joe Everyman won't. And Joe Everyman's kid or girlfriend may pay attention -- even if Microsoft tries to get it into the living through core gamers.

 

[derFeef]

So the PS4 has a:
-Better GPU
-CPU that is entirely focused on gaming
-Faster Ram

Yet we are going to believe that the new Xbox will be more powerful because apparently MS has a little secret part that is magically going to made up for all the above disadvantages? Wtf am I reading??

People who want rumored Durango to be as powerful as the rumored Orbis want it to be a custom setup to get more out of it.

People who don't want rumored Durango to be as powerful as the rumored Orbis are downplaying the setup as "secret sauce".

 

[darkistheway]

This "secret sauce" stuff drives me nuts. Yes, AMD did have more engineers on the Microsoft project. Yes, the hardware in the Durango is more customized than Sony's. Yes both of their dev kits are more powerful than final hardware will be.

However, consider that even the Wii U had "secret sauce" (ARM core, DSP, etc) to offload certain tasks off the main hardware.

I prefer wizard jizz.

I'm actually amused at how stuff like DSPs and other specialized hardware are 'magic' in the context of Microsoft but in the Wii U, they were just dismissed outright (by some).

 

[StevieP]

I prefer wizard jizz.

I'm actually amused at how stuff like DSPs and other specialized hardware are 'magic' in the context of Microsoft but in the Wii U, they were just dismissed outright (by some).

I also prefer wizard jizz lol
To be fair, the audio DSP in the Durango is reportedly quite a bit more advanced than the one in the Wii U - they both accomplish the same task, however, in off-loading specific tasks from the main hardware - hence "secret sauce".

 

[TheOddOne]

People who want rumored Durango to be as powerful as the rumored Orbis want it to be a custom setup to get more out of it.

People who don't want rumored Durango to be as powerful as the rumored Orbis are downplaying the setup as "secret sauce".

Pretty much.

 

[PdotMichael]

I think the argument is:

1) there are some specific tasks done in fixed function hardware that might perform >= similar on Orbis (although there seems to be some lack of awareness of extra units Orbis might or might not have)

2) for memory bound algorithms on the GPU the eSRAM will be another tool programmers can use to avoid stalls

Arguments which if made with context seem plausible and fair enough. However I don't think there's any magic bullets. Any 'magic numbers' or magic multipliers are not general case numbers.

That sounds like an engineering nightmare, what's the point to push a custom-made version of a weaker hardware if I could just use a faster standard version?

 

[Jadedx]

I prefer wizard jizz.

I'm actually amused at how stuff like DSPs and other specialized hardware are 'magic' in the context of Microsoft but in the Wii U, they were just dismissed outright (by some).

Because the Wii U has a much weaker base, a less capable tri core cpu. Less overall ram than both the ps4 and 720, and a weaker gpu.

That sounds like an engineering nightmare, what's the point to push a custom-made version of a weaker hardware if I could just use a faster standard version?

Cost.

 

[iamshadowlark]

I would also note that the dsps, or secret sauce or whatever differ from the rumored extra compute unit in PS4.

 

[itsgreen]

That sounds like an engineering nightmare, what's the point to push a custom-made version of a weaker hardware if I could just use a faster standard version?

Price... power usage...

 

[ii Stryker]

So to summarize it's basically

Orbis gaming focused with entertainment features

Durango entertainment focused with gaming features

It also seems like the Durango's architecture will allow for complete backward compatibility.

How difficult would backward compatibility be for Orbis given its architecture?

I have to say I do think that watching tv with an XBL overlay and being able to launch seemlessly into a game from that does seem kinda cool. If that's what they're planning that is.

 

[kikonawa]

Lol at secret sauce.
This is just fanboy rambling.There is no such thing as magic

 

[surly]

So to summarize it's basically

Orbis gaming focused with entertainment features

Durango entertainment focused with gaming features

It also seems like the Durango's architecture will allow for complete backward compatibility.

What is this summary based on?

Some of this conversation reminds me of "the power of the Cell" and the "MS are doomed" predictions from early last gen. Never mind games, price, features, services and what have you. It's all about THE POWER as that's what really sells consoles.

 

[PdotMichael]

Cost.

Price... power usage...

Do you guys have anything to back it up?

 

[Proelite]

Lol at secret sauce.
This is just fanboy rambling.There is no such thing as magic

Oh but there is. A dark and powerful magic.

 

[darkistheway]

Because the Wii U has a much weaker base, a less capable tri core cpu. Less overall ram than both the ps4 and 720, and a weaker gpu.

Thank you, you made my point beautifully.

 

[Kiraly]

Dutch gamesite says it will reveal a next-gen console today.

 

[itsgreen]

Dutch gamesite says it will reveal a next-gen console today.

Which one?

 

[rdrr gnr]

Dutch gamesite says it will reveal a next-gen console today.

Specs? Assuming Orbis given Durante has been "revealed."

 

[west]

You and Microsoft don't see eye-to-eye.

This "secret sauce" stuff drives me nuts. Yes, AMD did have more engineers on the Microsoft project. Yes, the hardware in the Durango is more customized than Sony's. Yes both of their dev kits are more powerful than final hardware will be.

However, consider that even the Wii U had "secret sauce" (ARM core, DSP, etc) to offload certain tasks off the main hardware.

Exactly.

You essentially have to have specialized DSP:s for some task. Sound processing in itself can consume a whole CPU core if not handled by a specialized chip. The same goes for decompressing and encoding data to/from a disk.

So far all signs point to the "secret sauce" being just that. Basic stuff all modern consoles need. MS might throw in video encoding or something similar for added features.

AMD used more engineers on the Microsoft project. Why? Propably because these basic modules in Durango are also developed by AMD. Sony has a long history in making specialized DSP:s, and will propably manufacture them in house, thus a more standard CPU solution is just fine.

The simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Why a direct Cell comparison is being drawn to Durango's design by some of you is beyond me, most of the features hinted at are more flexible versions of things developers are already doing on the 360.

Neither console is going to be a nightmare to develop for, and for that both sides should be very thankful.

 

[Used-ID]

Oh but there is. A dark and powerful magic.

You're enjoying this aren't you?

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Oh but there is. A dark and powerful magic.

Terrible stuff, trust me.