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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

I don't think it's really "jumping" to conclusions... it's just an assessment of the situation based on what we (think we) know.
Microsoft appear determined to:
  • get some form of W8 into the living room ecosystem
  • attract the expanded audience with Kinect 2.0
  • be a set-top/cable box
  • better/faster profitability than before
  • while still having a notable increase in hardware power
And that seems to be reflected in the design as well.
I drew the same assessment myself without being a technical wizard.

The only thing that I'd say is off to me is not using a custom version of W8.

It's a decimal difference ffs. Seems highly unnecessary to fret over.
It's more than "a Wii U"'s difference.
 
Honestly, I am less resentful that secret recipe and more curious. Given llhere said it is a wash, it has to have had some impact to narrow the TF gap.





It's surprising that you trivialize the difference of 0.6TF, because you are not "overly tech savvy" hence, did not have enough information to pass such a judgement. Yet when you are called out on it, you get defensive. You compensate by showing off your credentials and resort to name calling.

Ah, the beauty of internet forum.

Maybe Sony has simply had more conservative dev kits than Microsoft?
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
8 core dozer at 1.6 ghz, 8gb of ram, and a 18 CU modified Southern Islands just doesn't sound impressive to me.

I'll be very disappointed if that was the kit that's supposed to emulate final Orbis performance.

It's the first SOC kit supposedly, which I guess means the first iteration of the final silicon, their first version of the APU in the final machine. They're moving further away from 'emulating' final hardware with PC kit on (modified) Windows environments, to having real custom hardware with maturing iterations of their custom OS.

The final kit will presumably just be the kit in the retail box with more RAM.

Why would you expect different?

Not all kits are super powerful PCs aimed at emulating final box performance in a PC context. They eventually go down to real silicon, sometimes even not at full performance of the final silicon. That was the case with Vita and PS3.
 
It's a poor mans AA. Supposed to be super cheap.
FXAA:
Llcp2MS.jpg
 

Ding-Ding

Member
Proelite seems to know very little for someone who indulges in a know-it all attitude (winks, vaguely assertive comments, flip-flop stances...), me thinks...

He is the master of the flops...Or as you put it flip flops..

Personally I cant keep up. One minute it was 50% above leaked TF, Then it was nearly 110% (he suggested equivalent to 2.5TF) and now he seems to be hinting at 2.0TF

Basically, it all seems like guesswork
 
It's nice and all, but still rumored leaks.
I will judge the systems when I play games on them :p

We'll probably be able to better judge them once the muzzles have been taken off the developers and they can speak freely. But ultimately you're correct, playing is believing. I think this power debate is nice to have no, but meaningless. Will come down to games, support, services, and possibly controllers. If either one of the two can attract the casual fans that it looks like Nintendo lost, they'll "win".
 

Bert

Member
If this is a standard box running a version of Windows that has some kind of "gaming mode" that shut off all nonessential functions plus whatever multitasking is normal, would there still be an impact over a standard console OS?

I can definitely see MS heading for a standard, media center style Windows box, they've done Zune, Kin (and Nokia sort of) and Surface and a self made Windows device for the home is the next logical step.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
It's the first SOC kit supposedly, which I guess means the first iteration of the final silicon, their first version of the APU in the final machine. They're moving further away from 'emulating' final hardware with PC kit, to having real custom hardware.

The final kit will presumably just be the kit in the retail box with more RAM.

Why would you expect different?

Not all kits are super powerful PCs aimed at offering final box performance in a PC context. They eventually go down to real silicon, sometimes even not at full performance of the final silicon. That was the case with Vita and PS3.

Exactly gofreak. I have even previously asked the insiders if current Durango devkits had any final silicon in them.

It came across to me that some were taking PC devkit specs and assuming the final console would be really powerful.
 
8 core dozer at 1.6 ghz, 8gb of ram, and a 18 CU modified Southern Islands just doesn't sound impressive to me.

I'll be very disappointed if that was the kit that's supposed to emulate final Orbis performance.

But according to Thuway, dev kits shown marked improvement every iteration, so final kit performance should be great.

That's the old dev kit. The new one is supposed to be close to final isn't it?
 
If this is a standard box running a version of Windows that has some kind of "gaming mode" that shut off all nonessential functions plus whatever multitasking is normal, would there still be an impact over a standard console OS?

I can definitely see MS heading for a standard, media center style Windows box, they've done Zune, Kin (and Nokia sort of) and Surface and a standard Windows box for the home is the next logical step.

Windows 8 was designed for portability. The likelihood that they'll cram in a desktop Windows 8 in there willy nilly is close to absolute zero.
 
Are a lot of people going to be disappointed when both systems don't have BC?

Seems impossible at this point given the CPU they're both targeting.

I've missed basically the entire gen of console 1st party and 3rd party exclusives so yeah it's going to be a bummer for me. Maybe they can figure out some kind of software solution, who knows.
 
Are a lot of people going to be disappointed when both systems don't have BC?

Seems impossible at this point given the CPU they're both targeting.

New systems absolutely need it imo. When the 360 came out, i sold off everything except halo2. I expect to still be able to play halo4 on the next system considering games will probably be scarce at launch.
 
It came across to me that some were taking PC devkit specs and assuming the final console would be really powerful.

I think proelite thought Durango was a beast because IIRC he said his source told him the PC based dev kit had a >2.5TF GPU.


My question would be, don't SDK, even non-final designs based on PC parts, attempt to accurately model the expected final console performance ?
 

i-Lo

Member
8 core dozer at 1.6 ghz, 8gb of ram, and a 18 CU modified Southern Islands just doesn't sound impressive to me.

I'll be very disappointed if that was the kit that's supposed to emulate final Orbis performance.

But according to Thuway, dev kits shown marked improvement every iteration, so final kit performance should be great.

Heaven forbid that thy sensibilities should be offended.

Also, that dev kit (with unified 8GB) released this month is the closest thing to the final kit. So besides the little tweaks with clock speeds, the rest of basic seem to be set for go.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Exactly gofreak. I have even previously asked the insiders if current Durango devkits had any final silicon in them.

Would be good to know, actually, if MS has transitioned from PCs to some version of 'real' Durango hardware, or when that happened. It might give an idea of where each is relative to one another on their technical/hardware schedules.
 

BlackJace

Member
It's surprising that you trivialize the difference of 0.6TF, because you are not "overly tech savvy" hence, did not have enough information to pass such a judgement. Yet when you are called out on it, you get defensive. You compensate by showing off your credentials and resort to name calling.

Ah, the beauty of internet forum.

I was looking literally at the difference between 1.2 and 1.8, not with triceratops n' teraflops and the like in the mix. I didn't waltz in the thread on my high horse claiming I knew exactly what I was talking about. I said it "seems unnecessary to fret over". Hence, a shallow observation.

Then people corrected me on why that's incorrect, one of the beauties of discussing things with others of the same interest. Even thanked the person who did so.

Then SPE comes in after the fact and insults my math skills. Sure, maybe calling him a douche jumped the gun, but I would think someone is able to make a mistake without getting insulted on here.
 

onQ123

Member
Specs where finalized sometime in late 2011 / earlier 2012.
Only minute changes such as clocks can be tweaked this late in the cycle.

I would be more worried about the shittiness of the January Orbis devkits revealed today in VGLeaks than a very reactive blog post by a known hater of Directx.

isn't the PS Vita Devkit basically a PS Vita that connects to a PC?

so why would you be so worried about a Devkit that's close to the final specs?


also how do you know it's shitty from what VGLeaks posted? all they posted was


SoC Based Devkit

Available January 2013
CPU: 8-core Jaguar
GPU: Liverpool GPU
RAM: unified 8 GB for devkit (4 GB for the retail console)
Subsystem: HDD, Network Controller, BD Drive, Bluetooth Controller, WLAN and HDMI (up to 1980×1080@3D)
Analog Outputs: Audio, Composite Video
Connection to Host: USB 3.0 (targeting over 200 MB/s),
ORBIS Dualshock
Dual Camera

The last devkit is the closer one to the retail console. Expect a machine with these specs or similar to these ones. Obviously, Sony could introduce changes in this features, but don’t expect deep mods.
 
Haven't kept up on this stuff since before the holidays - are both due for this year still/are the devkits indicating they'll arrive this year? Good to know for budget reasons ha.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I think proelite thought Durango was a beast because IIRC he said his source told him the PC based dev kit had a >2.5TF GPU.


My question would be, don't SDK, even non-final designs based on PC parts, attempt to accurately model the expected final console performance ?

Very good question. I would guess in these two consoles cases it would be fine because the CPU/GPU are tweaked PC parts.

In Durango's case though I'm surprised we've heard nothing suggesting actual early silicon is in the devkits. With all the special assists, I would think it much more important to have them as early as possible.......
 

FrankT

Member
Did CVG ever post what they were supposedly waiting on in regards to this thing on Monday. I know he said he was waiting on the piece last Friday iirc.
 

i-Lo

Member
isn't the PS Vita Devkit basically a PS Vita that connects to a PC?

so why would you be so worried about a Devkit that's close to the final specs?


also how do you know it's shitty from what VGLeaks posted? all they posted was

I guess that is the specification he considers unimpressive.
 
They say Flops by themselves don't mean anything.

But if you are comparing an almost identical architecture to another (such as GPU from the same vendor), FLOPS are a pretty good indicator of performance.

Not even them. They are a good indicator of performance on PC side because they usually scales everything with the flop performance. We still don't know that yet.

Also, both consoles are rumored to have some customizations on their parts, and different memory setups that could change the entire pipeline, so they are probably not as directly comparable as would appear at first.

It does seem orbis has a hefty flop and bandwidth performance though, and the bigger bandwidth can very possible indicate a fillrate advantage too. So it's tough to compare without knowing more.
 

CLEEK

Member
I got through Honors just fine; not being overly tech savvy shouldn't subject me to my mathematic abilities being called out by internet douches.

It has nothing to do with being technically savvy. It's basic math. A difference of 50% is not trivial, in computing terms or anything else.

Still, Jeff will be happy he no longer has to wear the GAF cone of shame.
 

Mindlog

Member
Are a lot of people going to be disappointed when both systems don't have BC?

Seems impossible at this point given the CPU they're both targeting.
That would be terrible. It would deny me the inevitable backpedaling hilarity that would come if one console had it and the other didn't.

Would have to wait for the Steambox fully backward compatible Day 1 Megaton.
 

BlackJace

Member
It has nothing to do with being technically savvy. It's basic math. A difference of 50% is not trivial, in computing terms or anything else.

Still, Jeff will be happy he no longer has to wear the GAF cone of shame.

I wasn't paying attention to the teraflop part yeesh, I've said it twice now. People were right to correct me on that, but you could've had more tact.
 

Proelite

Member
isn't the PS Vita Devkit basically a PS Vita that connects to a PC?

so why would you be so worried about a Devkit that's close to the final specs?


also how do you know it's shitty from what VGLeaks posted? all they posted was

Fuck I messed up. I meant the one Kotaku posted with the 1.6 ghz dozers and the 7970m is crappy.

The January one in VGLeaks seems to have final silicon (the APU), it should be more indicative of the final performance.
 
Fuck I messed up. I meant the one Kotaku posted with the 1.6 ghz dozers and the 7970m is crappy.

The January one in VGLeaks seems to have final silicon (the APU), it should be more indicative of the final performance.

Hey elite were you clarifying the 3gb to os thing recently. Was it you or someone else that said its lower but not by much.
 
Lol, good, because that is the actual difference in raw performance.

Not quite, it represents a difference in raw float point throughput, how that throughput translates to performance is a whole different ball game.

And that's not even talking about efficiency, difference in architectures... Your work simply might not need the extra operations. Say for example that all you want to do is to draw big black images as fast as you can. The performance won't be determined by the flop rate at all.

Of course, there's not much use in big black images, but not every game is going to be hold back by alu performance, heck even in some fairly high profile games in this generation developers have come out and said that they still some processing power unused on 7 year old hardwares (360 and Ps3) and that they can't put that to good use because they are being hold back by their memory.

My point is: Not knowing all the details of the architectures means we can't say precisely where each of them is going to have an advantage over the other. Not knowing which kind of games these consoles are going to run means we can't say pretty much nothing about their final performance. Say in a hypothetical scenario Orbis massive bandwidth gives it an immense edge over durango in deferred rendering. But for some reason developers decide to stick to forward rendering (be it lowest common denominator, gpgpu being used in a way where they can have the forward rendering advantages and the deferred ones too, etc) and in forward rendering orbis extra bandwidth doesn't make much a difference, but durango's memory setup allows it to compensate the float point advantage and then some, but by a smaller margin then DF would yield, so developers decide to stick to that for parity's sake.

Even if a company design a game console that can excel at current games doesn't mean it will hold true to games in 2-3 years or more. That kinda happened with 360. It's edram setup was less than ideal for deferred rendering, and even it's biggest advantage over Ps3 (lower cost MSAA) was pretty much nullified, and with MLAA there were actually some cases were Ps3 turned the table in it's favor...

RSX = 400GFLOPs, Xenos = 250GFLOPs... yes, flops flops everywhere...




We don't know that.

Not to enter in a Ps3 vs 360 debate that later on the generation, but those flops figures on RSX are simply not true.

RSX in fact very close to xenos in theorical float point performance (regarding pixel shading).

The "theorical" performance gets inflated because people assume they can simply add all the units that execute operations, but by design of the architecture they are not addable.

An oversimplified quick example: RSX has 8 vertex shading units, usually those flop figures add those to the pixel shading ones. But during a frame usually you do vertex processing before you do any pixel processing, so in reality when a game is drawing it's geometry the weak (in comparison to the pixel shaders) are actually stalling the pixel shader units that have to sit there waiting for it to finish so they can start their work. On xenos that's not a problem because all it's execution units can be dedicated to the vertex processing, so xenos ends that job more quickly and gets more time to do pixel shading work, and so, even though they have theoretical close performance to RSX's pixel shaders they can achieve a higher throughput.
 

Mindlog

Member
The Linux Steambox will only be 100% backwards compatible if you format it and install Windows on it.
You forgot the special wrappers.

Can't decide if the correct joke there is related to the stupid sauce meme or prophylactics.
 
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