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VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed

What happened to Microsoft? I thought they'd go for the jugular and built a better spec'd box than SONY, if you would have asked me 1 month ago if SONY would have had the better spec next-gen console I would have said "no way".

I can't wait to se those first party SONY titles, my god...

Well, it's not that 360's exclusive games will look bad, either.

I mean, the gap with the 360 is still huge.

(which is not yet confirmed).

Nothing is yet confirmed. And I think something's missing (or some of this rumours are either very old or completely fake).

Where do I get this from? My ass, of course. xD
 

Pug

Member
Even if 3rd parties do lead on Durango, can't they just uport their games to PS4, I thought the hardware between the 2 consoles are much more similar.

It does seem that both consoles are very similar. If these spec are correct there is no doubts Orbis has a stronger GPU. Bar the memory setups, I can't see any problems with porting codes. These consoles seem very similar to me.
 

Zeal

Banned
So the massive sdram is the secret weapon? I know it doesn't sound like a lot but that actually is. They clearly tend to use this to make up for sony's gddr5.
 

KAL2006

Banned
The hardware is so similar that Microsoft and Sony's toolchains will make a bigger difference in ease of development than anything else. Many developers would probably prefer Orbis' faster GPU and greater memory bandwidth, but at that same time I would bank on Microsoft providing better tools for developers.

Even if MS offer better tools it doesn't change the fact PS4 is still easy to develop for. Also because both ststems are similar in architecture this time around, developers can make a game for either system then downport/upport to the other system. For example developer makes a game for Durango and because the architecture is similar they can easily up port to PS4 by getting better frame rates or improve IQ.
 

nib95

Banned
Why should they do this? They'll be happy to achieve the same like on durango with less work.

This won't be the case. If there's easy margin for it, they'll put in some quick extras, i.e, more AA, AF or simply leave the game running at a higher frame rate.

Also, regarding the PS2 and PS3, whilst powerful, they were quite exotic, which was the cause for difficulty in development. Not Sony's tools per say but the hardware complexities that demanded the best out of it. 360 actually has a better GPU than the PS3, it's Cell that made up for it, with some effort in development mind.

Orbis is a completely different beast. On paper so far at least, it's actually less exotic than Durango. Nothing like Sony's previous consoles.
 

Rad-

Member
I'd be happy if 3rd party games target 30fps on Durango and simply run a higher clip on Orbis, without any IQ enhancements.

That would be pretty horrible scenario for Sony. They have a more expensive system and it would only help them achieve a bit more fps?
 

Karma

Banned
Don't get why you say there will be no resolution jump. From this gen to next will be resolution jump same as to next next generation.

As of how it relate to orbis. IMO. MS choose DDR3+SRAM because alone DD3 ram is to slow for their spec and GDDR5 is to fast for their spec. With this spec if their DDR3+SRAM works well then there would be no upgrade in performance (generaly) if they would upgrade spec to GDDR5.

To describe it simpler: MS choose 6 nails for their 6 nails work. If they would choose 12 nails for their 6 nails work then other 6 nails would be unused.

Using GDDR5 for Durango with that spec would be just waste of resources imo and that was probably their motive.


So any info about Durango and SoC ?

If DDR3+SRAM is more expensive than GDDR5 then why not go with GDDR5?
 
Not even close.

This gen will be like

Dreamcast ---> GameCube ---> Xbox 1

That's much closer than people have been putting at with their joke power level comparisons. But it does seem the assumption that Durango and Orbis are basically twins has been thrown off.
 
What the hell are you talking about? It depends on each individual studio and what they want out of their game.
I'm sorry. I should have made myself clear. >_<

I'm asking if Developers wanted to push their game to the max, what can I expect from specs listed. Whats the best it can do (which probably won't be reached).

I understand it depends on the developers how some games run. For example CoD running at 60 frames because Activison wants it too, and Halo 4 looking beautiful at 30 frames.

Oh and the 560p comment was based on how Halo 3, Black Ops, and Halo:Reach all run around 560p/620p no? I don't know.

Sorry if I wasn't clear GAF.
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
I think people just look at some numbers and go omg its less powerful11!

These are specs and theoretical maximums, not real world performance- just like to remind everyone of that.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
lets say the rumoured specs are correct. While we sit here wailing and gnashing our teeth over how x console is y% better than z console, the mainstream out there won't understand or care about any of it. If MS spends big on the marketing and pitches it just right, they'll do very well. Meanwhile we'll be sitting here going 'oh why is it selling so well, it has less CUs'
 
Aside from the GPU, the PS3 was superior to the Xbox 360 across the board.

Maybe, but I thought MS would go all in with its next console, or at least with superior specs than SONY's next console, you know they have the money to do it, unlike current consoles, this time is not even debatable, SONY's next console is superior (hardware wise) in all the key departments.

Now I am curious about what 3rd party developers are going to do with SONY's console extra juice, nothing?, more AA? interesting times ahead.
 

TheOddOne

Member
I would be more interested to see developers explain the "it's a wash" comments, since they're the ones making them. I never said "secret sauce." I said additional hardware to help performance, which is in the diagram. Also, numerous comments and hints I made were validated by the diagram. I've never said the GPU put out more flops than Orbis's solution. I haven't even said Durango was more powerful for quite a while (which disappeared once I got flop numbers for both and the "they aren't representative" talk).

I've said repeatedly there's hardware to get around the memory bandwidth limitations, that it targets efficiency, and that developers seem to like it. None of that is disproven or declared "bullshit" by this. I feel like I've tried pretty hard not to get into the power-pissing contest. I've only gone on record as saying the systems aren't far apart (which I continue to hear), and that Durango isn't "weak" by any definition. I understand that there's a desire to lump everything every person who has had something positive to say about the system together into one meta-poster, but that's not the case.

And yeah, the diagram and specs are accurate as of last February, though it isn't the exact diagram I've seen. I don't know if VGLeaks made it themselves based on their own conjecture or not.
You fighting an uphill battle with some of them :\

Also think people will rip your post to shreds :\
 
Can't help feeling that releasing this underpowered machine is a major mistake from ms if true.

It'll be the first one I don't get as I want a good powerful step up. Seems they have compromised the specs to wedge in Kinect. Something i feared but did not want.

This combined with the way first party dev has gone at Sony and free online will push me to ps4 I think. Ps4 wiiu and PC will be enough.
 

Perkel

Banned


aegies said:
I don't know how many TF the card inside Durango is. What I can tell you is that it isn't comparable spec/feature/whatever wise to any consumer card out there right now. And more broadly, it's a monster of an SOC, which further muddies the water of any kind of comparison to available tech.

With SOC that leaves only Kinect question. In my prediction both consoles will have comparable price :

lower spec + hardware vs higher spec.
 

KAL2006

Banned
Why should they do this? They'll be happy to achieve the same like on durango with less work.

Why do developers make better ports on 360, PC, 360 and etc. If it is possible and doesn't require much more work, why not? especially when their will be PC versions that look even better than both Durango and PS4.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
I would be more interested to see developers explain the "it's a wash" comments, since they're the ones making them. I never said "secret sauce." I said additional hardware to help performance, which is in the diagram. Also, numerous comments and hints I made were validated by the diagram. I've never said the GPU put out more flops than Orbis's solution. I haven't even said Durango was more powerful for quite a while (which disappeared once I got flop numbers for both and the "they aren't representative" talk).

I've said repeatedly there's hardware to get around the memory bandwidth limitations, that it targets efficiency, and that developers seem to like it. None of that is disproven or declared "bullshit" by this. I feel like I've tried pretty hard not to get into the power-pissing contest. I've only gone on record as saying the systems aren't far apart (which I continue to hear), and that Durango isn't "weak" by any definition. I understand that there's a desire to lump everything every person who has had something positive to say about the system together into one meta-poster, but that's not the case.

And yeah, the diagram and specs are accurate as of last February, though it isn't the exact diagram I've seen. I don't know if VGLeaks made it themselves based on their own conjecture or not.

nothing says "duh, this is what i was talking about all along" like a 225 word post scrambling to defend your reputation.

maybe this is a good learning experience. next time you look up the wizard's skirt, just snap us all a picture instead of seeping out starry eyed allusions as to how glorious his girth is.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
More like DC >> PS2 >>>GCN>>>Xbox.

yeah, basically it was a old ass machine by time those hit, so calling it weak from the get go is ridiculous
if anything it must of been powerful just to last that long.
 

nib95

Banned
I would be more interested to see developers explain the "it's a wash" comments, since they're the ones making them.

Bare in mind, at that time Durango dev kits had 12gb DDR3 (so assuming less for retail) and Orbis was projected to have just 2GB GDDR5 for it's final retail unit. Things have changed somewhat since then.

However, I still hold the belief that Microsoft is holding back and has more to offer.
 
Not even close.

This gen will be like

(Wii U) Dreamcast ---> (durango) GameCube ---> (orbis) Xbox 1

So far the wii U is an n64 not a dreamcast, so the comparison already falls apart there.

So far it looks like Wii U (N64) ---> durango (dreamcast) ---> orbis (somewhere between ps2 and gamecube/xbox). (this is still way off because the jump doesn't seem nearly as big this time, very dissapointing).

Also it makes sense to compare orbis and durango flops (same architecture) , but it doesn't make sense to compare wii u flops (r700 chip, 3 gens old) to durango and orbis (GCN, latest architecture)

If DDR3+SRAM is more expensive than GDDR5 then why not go with GDDR5?
Because it's 8GB DDR3 + SRAM = more expensive than 4GB GDDR 5 (not 8GB GDDR5), please read and process before drawing conclusions.
8GB GDDR5 would be quite a lot more expensive (bigger bus needed) , if MS is stubborn and dead set on having 8GB for their OS/apps/tv crap then they were willing to go with low bandwidth memory + SRAM to ungimp it as much as possible, possibly when they saw the low bandwidth they figured there wouldn't be much point bottlenecking a more powerful gpu with it so they downgraded the gpu as well.
 

spwolf

Member
This won't be the case. If there's easy margin for it, they'll put in some quick extras, i.e, more AA, AF or simply leave the game running at a higher frame rate.

Also, regarding the PS2 and PS3, whilst powerful, they were quite exotic, which was the cause for difficulty in development. Not Sony's tools per say but the hardware complexities that demanded the best out of it. 360 actually has a better GPU than the PS3, it's Cell that made up for it, with some effort in development mind.

Orbis is a completely different beast. On paper so far at least, it's actually less exotic than Durango. Nothing like Sony's previous consoles.

i would think it could easily end up being the difference between medium and ultra setting of some pc game for instance... especially if they end up being so similar just different raw power.
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
I love gens with uneven hardware power levels. Last last gen was the best. Dreamcast, ps2, GameCube, and Xbox? Ahh best gen ever.
 
Now I am curious about what 3rd party developers are going to do with SONY's console extra juice, nothing?, more AA? interesting times ahead.

I can't see their position being any different to this generation. One version might have a more consistent frame-rate, the other better lighting.

The battle (as with this generation) will be fought within 1st/2nd party.
 

Deuterium

Member
I

And yeah, the diagram and specs are accurate as of last February, though it isn't the exact diagram I've seen. I don't know if VGLeaks made it themselves based on their own conjecture or not.

Edit: also, they're still not talking about the hardware display planes (there are three, one is reserved for the OS, and each can render at a different resolution), which are definitely a thing, and the move engines, which are also a thing.

Hi Aegies,

Hold the phone...

Are you saying that all the "leaked" RUMORS appear to be based upon unconfirmed specs that are exactly one year old. Son of a bitch...seems to me that this is a lot of time within which things might change, before final production design is frozen.
 
Ehh, actually if the WiiU GPU is actually in the 400-500 GFLOPS range than the Durango is only around 2x the WiiU, the same as the PS2 to Xbox1

I wonder how much the 6GB (if 2GB are reserved for the OS) vs 1GB makes a difference.
I love gens with uneven hardware power levels. Last last gen was the best. Dreamcast, ps2, GameCube, and Xbox? Ahh best gen ever.

Although since the PS2 dwarfed everyone else it wasn't that interesting. This gen with more even competitors a power gap would be extremely interesting.
 

onQ123

Member
is this the reason for 8GB of memory?


Xbox%25203%2520compressedm.jpg
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
So far the wii U is an n64 not a dreamcast, so the comparison already falls apart there.

So far it looks like Wii U (N64) ---> durango (dreamcast) ---> orbis (somewhere between ps2 and gamecube/xbox).
You think so? I always thought the dreamcast was much farther behind than the GameCube and Xbox, however my post was simply my layman understanding on the matter.
 

Hana-Bi

Member
I would be more interested to see developers explain the "it's a wash" comments, since they're the ones making them. I never said "secret sauce." I said additional hardware to help performance, which is in the diagram. Also, numerous comments and hints I made were validated by the diagram. I've never said the GPU put out more flops than Orbis's solution. I haven't even said Durango was more powerful for quite a while (which disappeared once I got flop numbers for both and the "they aren't representative" talk).

I've said repeatedly there's hardware to get around the memory bandwidth limitations, that it targets efficiency, and that developers seem to like it. None of that is disproven or declared "bullshit" by this. I feel like I've tried pretty hard not to get into the power-pissing contest. I've only gone on record as saying the systems aren't far apart (which I continue to hear), and that Durango isn't "weak" by any definition. I understand that there's a desire to lump everything every person who has had something positive to say about the system together into one meta-poster, but that's not the case.

And yeah, the diagram and specs are accurate as of last February, though it isn't the exact diagram I've seen. I don't know if VGLeaks made it themselves based on their own conjecture or not.

Edit: also, they're still not talking about the hardware display planes (there are three, one is reserved for the OS, and each can render at a different resolution), which are definitely a thing, and the move engines, which are also a thing.

So, this info could also be one year old? Did you hear if there were any updates to these old specs?
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Aside from the GPU, the PS3 was superior to the Xbox 360 across the board.

Which is why 90% + of multiplatform games ran better on Xbox 360.

It's not just about potential power. It's about having the architecture and tools to allow devs to easily tap that power.
 
Which is why 90% + of multiplatform games ran better on Xbox 360.

It's not just about potential power. It's about having the architecture and tools to allow devs to easily tap that power.

Although it seems based on leaks the PS4 will have a very easy architecture to work with.
 

jbug617

Banned
Aegies responded on twitter said that the leaks are accurate but from 1yr ago. Don't know if anything changed or not.
 

KAL2006

Banned
lets say the rumoured specs are correct. While we sit here wailing and gnashing our teeth over how x console is y% better than z console, the mainstream out there won't understand or care about any of it. If MS spends big on the marketing and pitches it just right, they'll do very well. Meanwhile we'll be sitting here going 'oh why is it selling so well, it has less CUs'

This isn't a sales, thread we are speculating hardware. I also think Durango will probably sell better. I reckon all PS3 users will migrate to PSr, and 360 users will migrate to Durango, while maybe some gamers like the GAF community may switch over to PS4 (but that amount of people is too tiny to make a difference). again this is not a sales thread, I don't care if Durango sells better, just as long as PS4 is succesdul, offers me exclusives, more powerful than the competition and offers free online as well as continues to push PSN plus I will be happy.
 

aegies

Member
Bare in mind, at that time Durango dev kits had 12gb DDR3 (so assuming less for retail) and Orbis was projected to have just 2GB GDDR5 for it's final retail unit. Things have changed somewhat since then.

However, I still hold the belief that Microsoft is holding back and has more to offer.

No. They're saying now. Like, for the last two months, well after hardware had been finalized. Both systems are in final hardware test now. I'd heard Yoshida just did a little world tour to confirm things were ready to show before they announced this month's event.

I'm not scrambling to do anything. I've been waiting for this thread to happen. Just like I'm waiting for E3 to show up so this thread looks like a festival of crazy people who overreacted to numbers they don't understand (and which honestly I've been looking at for a couple of months now and barely understand).

Aegies responded on twitter said that the leaks are accurate but from 1yr ago. Don't know if anything changed or not.

I said the leaks are accurate as of last February, because that's the date on all the documentation I've seen. Smart posters should be able to figure out why.
 
Which is why 90% + of multiplatform games ran better on Xbox 360.

It's not just about potential power. It's about having the architecture and tools to allow devs to easily tap that power.

Exactly.

If anything, the extra power won't make the PS4 more powerful. It will be the ease of development.

My prediction?

Sony and Microsoft will produce some titles that will look equally amazing. I honestly couldn't care which does it better, I'll be buying both if the software shines.
 
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