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WiiU technical discussion (serious discussions welcome)

C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Zombie James said:
GPU die shot (screenshot too huge to post): http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/files/2013/02/C10234F5_Poly_b.jpg

http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2013/02/04/looking-at-the-wii-u-graphics-processor/
Click to expand...

Okay, this is awesome and it looks like it's exactly what we were waiting for. Reading right now.

Late last week we discovered a gaming message board called Neogaf where they were crowd-sourcing funds to buy die photos of the multi-chip CPU/GPU package in the Nintendo Wii U. They had raised enough to purchase top metal die photos of the CPU, the GPU and the tiny NOR memory chip.

To a manufacturer of said chips, these types of top metal die images are useful, but for the purposes of analyzing the specifications, you need to go a little lower and look at the polysilicon layer. Rather than have the community continue to raise money, we thought we would step-in and help out. Since (at the time of publication for this blog) we are only 1 day away from the release of Dead Space 3, we thought that the gaming community might be able to put their funds to better use.
Click to expand...
 
C

Cosmonaut X

Member
That's very cool of them - look forward to seeing the take on this.

Oh, and USC-fan - here's your chance to have a crack at it, without worrying about the "people" taking a look at it... ;-)
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
Zombie James said:
GPU die shot (screenshot too huge to post): http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/files/2013/02/C10234F5_Poly_b.jpg

http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2013/02/04/looking-at-the-wii-u-graphics-processor/
Click to expand...

They beat me to the punch! Was in the process of putting together a new thread with the image after a quick analysis. This was the surprise that we were hinting at - you all get to see the die with your own eyes. Also, they did it free of charge so those who contributed will be refunded shortly.
 
E

Earendil

Member
Meelow said:
Someone's going to have to explain what it means to me lol.
Click to expand...

Ditto. This does not look much like the other chips we have seen.

Fourth Storm said:
They beat me to the punch! Was in the process of putting together a new thread with the image after a quick analysis. This was the surprise that we were hinting at - you all get to see the die with your own eyes. Also, they did it free of charge so those who contributed will be refunded shortly.
Click to expand...

Major kudos to Chipworks!
 
M

Meelow

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
They beat me to the punch! Was in the process of putting together a new thread with the image after a quick analysis. This was the surprise that we were hinting at - you all get to see the die with your own eyes. Also, they did it free of charge so those who contributed will be refunded shortly.
Click to expand...

So I'm guessing it's good? :)
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
They beat me to the punch! Was in the process of putting together a new thread with the image after a quick analysis. This was the surprise that we were hinting at - you all get to see the die with your own eyes. Also, they did it free of charge so those who contributed will be refunded shortly.
Click to expand...



So, can you provide extra informations ?
 
T

Turrican3

Member
To a manufacturer of said chips, these types of top metal die images are useful, but for the purposes of analyzing the specifications, you need to go a little lower and look at the polysilicon layer. Rather than have the community continue to raise money, we thought we would step-in and help out. Since (at the time of publication for this blog) we are only 1 day away from the release of Dead Space 3, we thought that the gaming community might be able to put their funds to better use.
Click to expand...
So awesome. :)
 
tkscz

tkscz

Member
Fourth Storm said:
Major kudos indeed!



Very different from what we were expecting. At first glance, there appear to be significantly less shaders and significantly more custom/legacy logic than expected.



Several people are already in the process of analyzing.
Click to expand...

So fewer shader units for programmable/compute shaders and more for fix function shaders? Just guessing.
 
C

Cosmonaut X

Member
tkscz said:
So fewer shader units for programmable/compute shaders and more for fix function shaders? Just guessing.
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering, but I'm not sure if I'm grokking it properly. Is it some kind of evolution of the GCN TEV, expanding the fixed functions and adding programmable aspects?
 
F

freezamite

Banned
So, at the end we will get an ultra customized design. If we can know how many shaders there are, at the very best we will have the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM performance of the GPU.

Now we could be in front of a 150-200 GFlops GPU of flexible and programable power, plus the customized functions.
 
T

Twenty7KVN

Member
freezamite said:
So, at the end we will get an ultra customized design. If we can know how many shaders there are, at the very best we will have the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM performance of the GPU.

Now we could be in front of a 150-200 GFlops GPU of flexible and programable power, plus the customized functions.
Click to expand...
Which would make it almost impossible to compare it to the Orbis/Durango gpus?
 
W

wsippel

Banned
The Abominable Snowman said:
Judging from Nintendo's history of hardware level 'perfect' emulation, I'd wager the entire hollywood logic is embedded in the CPU. And probably disabled when not in Wii mode.
Click to expand...
Actually, looking at Nintendo's history, everything that wasn't in Wii will be disabled in Wii mode, not the other way around.
 
U

USC-fan

Banned
someone should post a new thread with this info. Please guy stop with "Can the next gen game run on wiiu?". That is not the point of this thread. It to talk about the tech behind the wiiu.

tipoo said:
I'm pretty frustrated with how little we still know too. Every new APple product has gotten its chip looked at under a microscope, for a gaming console the details are perhaps even more relevant (for some, at least). It would be easy for someone like Chipworks to at least tell us how many shader units and how much eDRAM is in the GPU for instance, and a bit about the CPU. All we know right now is clock speed and memory bandwidth, with a decent guess at core count (3 all but confirmed at this point).

About the eDRAM: Is the consensus here that both the CPU and GPU have their own dedicated pools? 3MB eDRAM, cache for the CPU, 32mb for the GPU is what I keep hearing, but I can't find official mention of both having some.

I wonder if they can talk to the other chips eDRAM pool quickly, that would make for some interesting programming. Ie, if the GPU didn't need all of its 32MB, the CPU could use it as an extended L3 cache or at the least a scratchpad. I think the GPU will be using most of that anyways though, I think it's just big enough to fit one 1080p buffer or one 720p buffer with 4x AA in it.


May I suggest a series of polite emails from a few of us to Chipworks to check the chips?
Click to expand...

Huge props to this guy and the people that sent the emails/money. VERY COOl!!
 
D

Durante

Member
Well, we were/are discussing this by email, but so far no one has stepped up to actually decipher it (It's only been an hour or so!).

One idea is that there is a lot of legacy/compatibility hardware for Flipper on there, but really, we don't know yet.
 
C

Captain Smoker

Member
USC-fan said:
someone should post a new thread with this info. Please guy stop with "Can the next gen game run on wiiu?". That is not the point of this thread. It to talk about the tech behind the wiiu.
Click to expand...
Fourth Storm said they're analyzing it, I think they're going to post the new thread when they're done.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
USC-fan said:
someone should post a new thread with this info. Please guy stop with "Can the next gen game run on wiiu?". That is not the point of this thread. It to talk about the tech behind the wiiu.



Huge props to this guy and the people that sent the emails/money. VERY COOl!!
Click to expand...

Thraktor is in the process of creating a thread, I believe. We can keep discussion in here for now until there is some solid analysis to go along with the shot. As it is, the pic alone will likely only breed many pages of "WTF?"
 
F

freezamite

Banned
Twenty7KVN said:
Which would make it almost impossible to compare it to the Orbis/Durango gpus?
Click to expand...
Yes. At the end, Orbis and Durango will be more "future proof" in the sense that they will have much more raw power to run anything that is thrown at them, so if new algorithms are discovered they could be implemented in more volume.

On WiiU on the other hand, there will be certain effects that will be done almost for free thanks to the custom logic, so it will be MUCH MORE effective at running those algorithms than Durango or Orbis, but outside of those, the raw power of the GPU may be at the same level of the Xbox 360 (maybe lower, or maybe a bit higher).

In any case, I think it's not a bad choice to go this route. I mean, hardware graphics specifications had been stuck around a set of techniques for the last few years (since DirextX 10) and if Nintendo gives fixed functions for the most used graphical techniques or some other functionality then I think we could see ASTONISHING results coming from the console, much better than what could be achieved through pure raw power.
 
A

AzaK

Member
Fourth Storm said:
They beat me to the punch! Was in the process of putting together a new thread with the image after a quick analysis. This was the surprise that we were hinting at - you all get to see the die with your own eyes. Also, they did it free of charge so those who contributed will be refunded shortly.
Click to expand...

Well done FS and everyone. Shame you didn't get a chance to decipher first but we might end up getting a hive mind looking at it which could help....or not ;)

Roll on the new thread.


BTW: Less shaders? /sob I'd have to apoligise to USC-FAN :)


freezamite said:
So, at the end we will get an ultra customized design. If we can know how many shaders there are, at the very best we will have the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM performance of the GPU.

Now we could be in front of a 150-200 GFlops GPU of flexible and programable power, plus the customized functions.
Click to expand...

It would be hilarious if it was full of custom fixed function shaders and I think I'd even go "Lol, Nintendo" although at some point way back in the WUSTs some people (wsippel and BG I think) brought up the idea of fixed function inside.

We also don't know if the custom logic is really helpful for Wii U or just for Wii BC.
 
G

guek

Banned
freezamite said:
On WiiU on the other hand, there will be certain effects that will be done almost for free thanks to the custom logic, so it will be MUCH MORE effective at running those algorithms than Durango or Orbis, but outside of those, the raw power of the GPU may be at the same level of the Xbox 360 (maybe lower, or maybe a bit higher).
Click to expand...
Isn't this a bit presumptive considering we don't know for certain what kind of custom logic will be found in durango/orbis?
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
guek said:
Isn't this a bit presumptive considering we don't know for certain what kind of custom logic will be found in durango/orbis?
Click to expand...

We haven't heard of any fixed function shaders in XB3 or PS4... There is little reason for them to go that route, for Nintendo it has a lot to do with BC... If it does have 400GFLOPs or so + fixed function shaders for lighting ect, it would mean Gamecube to Xbox when comparing Wii U to durango. (8GFLOPs to 21GFLOPs was the comparison of those consoles btw)

The Abominable Snowman said:
I'm confused as to how fixed-function is free. Its still die area taken up for less
Click to expand...
Yes die area, but Hollywood isn't all that big or power hungry, shrunk down, it would be fairly small... what they are talking about though is that the 12GFLOPs Wii had, could do next gen lighting AND other effects without touching the programmable shaders at all.
 
D

DrWong

Member
guek said:
Isn't this a bit presumptive considering we don't know for certain what kind of custom logic will be found in durango/orbis?
Click to expand...
I know: auto-aiming chip, brown colorz chip, corridor DSP, Anonymous ARM proc' (Sony exclusive), AGPU (Adverts GPGPU, 720 exclusive). Nintendo: Mario DSP and Duct taped Gamecube chip. Laugh DSP (Nintendo exclusive).
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
USC-fan said:
People are going to wish it was a stock r700. The system is not so unbalance as I first thought.
Click to expand...

Be nice, USC-fan. This is going to be a tough pill to swallow for many if my first impressions are correct. But I'm not saying anything until I have verification from a more knowledgeable source.
 
Z

z0m3le

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
Be nice, USC-fan. This is going to be a tough pill to swallow for many if my first impressions are correct. But I'm not saying anything until I have verification from a more knowledgeable source.
Click to expand...

How many SIMDs do you see? if it's 4, that would be 320shaders, which would get you 352GFLOPs + Fixed functions, that isn't anything to sneeze at, compared to last gen it should blow it away.
 
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