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[dragonelite]

I am going to puke if this so called secret sauce is Kinect being implemented into the console or being packed in with the system. And all launch titles will feature amazing, hand waving gameplay. Woopdie fuckin' doo.

More like weak sauce.

I have the same feeling motion is so 2010 give me something like oculus rift.

 

[AgentP]

Hey guys, can we stop comparing games with gifs, youtube vids and pictures? Yeah, I'd like to talk about the GPU. Thanks. ;]

I think that boat left 20 pages ago, it has been console wars since.

 

[evangd007]

So, now that we know xbox 720 will be so far weaker than PS4, how is MS expecting to market it and sell it ?

Strange stuff, they must have all the exclusive games in the world to make sales this time around

"The Xbox 720 will serve as your in-home media hub, connecting you to friends via Skype and interfacing with your Microsoft Surface and Windows Phone. You will also get access to Youtube, Hulu, and Amazon instant video. All of this is for only $60 a year!"

I had thought that the only way Microsoft could blow the advantageous position they find themselves in at the twilight of this generation would be to focus on media-delivery bullshit rather than games. If this rumor is true, then that is a distinct possibility.

 

[SneakyStephan]

How does every other car company sell vs. Ferrari?

Better value for money, unique features etc.

ps4 isn't a ferrari it's going to be a reasonable bang for buck car already , MS is just offering less if the rumors are correct.

As for how MS plans to sell it: I guess they are going to sell it for less (though not an appropriate amount less), and try to focus on their windows/kinect and other cynical shit that they think they can monetise.
They might also go for all that services/tv living room stuff that is popular in America (I don't know anyone who is interested in that here , netflix doesn't even exist where I live)

Sony could price ps4 low (break-even price, maybe 300 euros or something) and I wonder what MS would do then...

We know nothing about MS wants to do, and I didn't believe they would bother with this all in one box shit, but the hardware points to it so far. Who knows what they want.

@ brainstew, yes that is really how low we've fallen, it's the amalgamation of an 8 year hardware cycle, rise in marketing and consumer guilt and lower expectations and price gouging in the pc hardware market since 2011. The wii U specs and price probably did a lot of damage too.

 

[Reiko]

Welp. Pack it up. Microsoft just signed off their multiplat graphical advantage to Sony.

DVR Box 720 future am cry.

Spoiler

sarcasm

 

[dragonelite]

Orbis is far and away the most conservative console design in Sony's history. While I like the balance they were able to achieve and I think it's great that they developed a developer centric system, there's nothing bleeding edge about the design. Orbis is at bestbest the lower end of what I'd actually class as a true generational leap forward.

Durango isn't low end compared to Orbis,its just low end full stop. Are people really satisfied that the baseline for next generation development is going to be outclassed by integrated graphics solutions within 2 (at most 3) years of launch. Is that really how far we've fallen?

Had hoped they would both break the 2Tflops mark.
But nope..

 

[nasos_333]

How does every other car company sell vs. Ferrari?

Better value for money, unique features etc.

Depending on their respective pricepoints:

1) MS is betting that people don't need that extra bit of performance, don't want to pay the premium, don't value the price difference

2) MS is convinced their unique total proposition is worth it for the general consumer (if they can include Kinect in every box it is added value for the consumer, perhaps more than slightly better (in their eyes) graphics)

3) a combination of 1 and 2.

The difference is that Ferrari costs 10x more than the next passable offer

PS4 will cost 100-150$ more probably, which is like getting a Ferrari for 18000$, who would pay 15000$ for a Mitsubishi in that case ?

Especially since MS has ruined most of its basic franshises, like Fable, Alan Wake is on PC etc

 

[Tripp Daily]

Why do I hear people saying that the PS4 and the 720 have very similar architecture? Do the 4 hardware blocks and the data move engines not make the 720 radically different?

 

[RoboPlato]

Had hoped they would both break the 2Tflops mark.
But nope..

Orbis is 1.843

Pretty damn close to 2.

Why do I hear people saying that the PS4 and the 720 have very similar architecture? Do the 4 hardware blocks and the data move engines not make the 720 radically different?

Those are just things that assist the GPU functions. The actual CPU and GPU architectures are very similar. Same CPU, very similar GPU base but with different numbers.

 

[Proelite]

I am going to puke if this so called secret sauce is Kinect being implemented into the console or being packed in with the system. And all launch titles will feature amazing, hand waving gameplay. Woopdie fuckin' doo.

More like weak sauce.

Kinect processing and MEC processors.

It'll take about few hundred CPU / GPU equivalent flops to do equal the performance of the dsp, so they'll count these in PR flops!

Durango a 3 TF machine!

 

[nelsonroyale]

Microsoft as a company has way more money but that doesn't all go to the gaming division. The future of the entirety of Sony rides on the PS4. Sony had to make sure they invested in the PS4 hardware accordingly to appeal to the core, where their customers tend to lie, whereas Microsoft is looking to add in Kinect and go for a mass market product. Microsoft didn't cheap out, I expect Kinect 2 to blow some minds. Kinect is an integral part of the Durango hardware and we have yet to see what it can do.

It is a funny argument as well... I mean doesn't apple now have more money than MS? Do they sell their products at a loss? NO! They sell them at a profit.

 

[Tripp Daily]

The difference is that Ferrari costs 10x more than the next passable offer

PS4 will cost 100-150$ more probably, which is like getting a Ferrari for 18000$, who would pay 15000$ for a Mitsubishi in that case ?

Especially since MS has ruined most of its basic franshises, like Fable, Alan Wake is on PC etc

Your analogy should work off of a percentage base.

 

[OdysseusVA]

so what PC GPU is it comparable to?

7770, I believe. Which isn't bad by any means. For example, BF3 could run at 1080p on high over 30fps.

 

[acm2000]

people need to remember that most cutscenes in Last Of Us are gonna be FMV, not real time, same as all the Uncharted games did, and Gears did on 360

 

[Agent Ironside]

I have the same feeling motion is so 2010 give me something like oculus rift.

Oculus Rift is about all the secret sauce there is left.

They can't sell it on.. oh, it has netflix, oh it has motion stuff, etc. That's all old and has been done. And people who want a DVR at this point, already own one. It comes down to the games.

 

[MikeE21286]

All that's coming out of this is extremely interesting to me. It's all also starting to come together, at least in my mind, in terms of what Microsoft is planning to do with their next-gen console strategy/approach.

One point that particularly stands out to me is how Microsoft would let Sony have any advantage in 3rd party games, since the Xbox brand is basically built off of 3rd party completely.

I really think that we'll see;

1. The Durango will come in, at most, as the same price as Orbis. It will obviously include the Kinect 2.0, and there will be no SKU without the Kinect 2.0

- If Microsoft is indeed dialling down the internal specs, this has to be because it wants to get the overall price down (obviously) in order to make sure that Kinect 2.0 can fit into all of the packages. The console, as most have said, will be aimed at a more mainstream audience than the Orbis, and the specs are seemingly (from what the pundits are saying) screaming "good enough" and not top of the line/edge.

2. Third party games will be "money hatted" for timed exlusivity, exclusive in-game items, DLC, etc.

- obviously no surprise here as Microsoft has been doing this in the past. Microsoft will more than ever need to give consumers a reason to want the Xbox version of the third party games over the Sony version.

The interesting thing here is that Microsoft will need to create another situation like Xbox and PS2 (but the other way around this time). Where previously, in most circumstances, the Xbox versions of games were better than the PS2 version. However, the overall demand in general for the PS2 hardware was so much higher than the Xbox hardware that the third parties lived on the PS2. Microsoft will need to create similar demand in the Durango that existed for the PS2. Again, playing off the whole Kinect piece and XBL being the differentiator here, as the DVD aspect and the early release for the PS2 (as well as Japanese developers and others) were the main PS2 differentiators.


3. Microsoft needs to ramp up internal development

-the edge is going to be there on the third party side for Sony. They're going to need to sell people on why Kinect and XBL are the differentiators over Sony.

Also, third parties will not develop for Kinect 2.0 unless heavily subsidized for that development. It's like the Wii, it's like handhelds....Western third parties will ignore it.

The way the console is being developed it screams that the third party games will not be a differentiator for the system as they previously were the last 2 generations. They'll need to create that from an internal development perspective.

 

[Alx]

So, now that we know xbox 720 will be so far weaker than PS4, how is MS expecting to market it and sell it ?

Strange stuff, they must have all the exclusive games in the world to make sales this time around

I don't know about the difference in power, but based on current rumors, it's quite clear that MS will try to introduce new "features" to its console. We still don't know exactly for what they could use 3G of dedicated RAM for example, or what kind of device they could bundle with their console thanks to a possibly cheaper hardware.
That makes it really exciting actually, because there are chances that we will get completely different consoles (the most frustrating thing on this generation was PS3 and 360 offering the same experience, mostly).

 

[AgentP]

Why do I hear people saying that the PS4 and the 720 have very similar architecture? Do the 4 hardware blocks and the data move engines not make the 720 radically different?

The GPU and CPU is mostly designed by AMD around the same time, they share more DNA than any two consoles ever.

 

[Mononoke]

I don't want a media hub, I already have a smart TV that does that. Most surround systems also come with this. I also imagine a large market share owns apple TV or Roku devices.

So I don't really see the appeal of MS focusing on this. Especially if its using Windows 8.

 

[Tripp Daily]

I have the same feeling motion is so 2010 give me something like oculus rift.

I'm pretty tired of all the oculus rift hype. I can't see many people wanting to wear a helmet goggle rig for long periods of time. Not to mention going blind from having screens that close to their eyes.

3D glasses didn't catch on for the same reason. I don't see this being anything more than a small niche fad.

 

[Proelite]

Durango isn't low end compared to Orbis,its just low end full stop. Are people really satisfied that the baseline for next generation development is going to be outclassed by integrated graphics solutions within 2 (at most 3) years of launch. Is that really how far we've fallen?

At best they'll be outclassed by integrated graphics solutions within 3-4 years of launch since they're releasing right before revolutions in semi-conductor technologies.

If I was Sony, I would have waited until 2014 to unleash the proper 8-9 year leap.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Reading the article again I just realised that its a copy/paste of a Microsoft document or at least a document re-written by an American.

The fact I can't see AMD or GCN mentioned once makes me think that anyway.

Here is something Blu noticed about the specs in the article. If anyone want's to comment/explain what it could mean.

There's something very interesting in that spec sheet..

How do they manage to funnel 51.2GSamples/s of zexels over a 102.4GB/s channel?

Z Cull is a read-modify-write op, i.e. you need to read the buffer's current content, compare it against the incoming value, and update the buffer with the new value. At 102.4GB/s and 51.2GSample/s you get 2 bytes/sample for the entire operation.

 

[itsgreen]

ps4 isn't a ferrari it's going to be a reasonable bang for buck car already , MS is just offering less if the rumors are correct.

Maybe not necessarily better value for money, but the same value for money, or roughly the same value for money. Just less money (and comparable less value).

The difference is that Ferrari costs 10x more than the next passable offer

PS4 will cost 100-150$ more probably, which is like getting a Ferrari for 18000$, who would pay 15000$ for a Mitsubishi in that case ?

Especially since MS has ruined most of its basic franshises, like Fable, Alan Wake is on PC etc

Think any other higher end car, a good Mercedes or BMW can get you within a reasonable margin of a Ferrari. Why pay that extra money for the extra performance a Ferrari might give you, while at the same time you can throw your groceries in the back of your M5.

 

[Death Dealer]

Is the gap big enough to have orbis run miltiplats at 60fps? That would seal the deal immediately for me

I can see a scenario where a multiplatform game running at 60fps on Orbis is shall we say, "less smooth" on Durango. Not necessarily 30fps but struggling to maintain 60fps, unless the developers lowered the resolution to compensate. That's probably what they will have to do for games that are only targeting 30fps on Orbis to begin with. Resolution, graphics effects, and image quality can all scale down easily enough. I read on B3D, this leak pretty much confirms its GPU is using the same GCN architecture as Orbis. So 1.8TF/32 Rops vs 1.2TF/16 Rops seems to be a significant advantage. Something will have to "give" on multiplatform ports. Each dev studio will decide what are the best trade offs to make in their particular game.

 

[FordGTGuy]

For anyone wanting to compare the 7770 to other GPUs you can use this:
http://www.hwcompare.com/11900/geforce-gtx-560-ti-vs-radeon-hd-7770/

 

[Mascot]

Fuck all this technobabble. Let's have it in layman's terms.

How far can across the room can the masturbating wizard ejaculate his jizz?
I will accept measurement as X number of Gamecubes in a row.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

So I am going to assume we will see a more traditional console cycle this time around.

 

[Proelite]

For anyone wanting to compare the 7770 to other GPUs you can use this:
http://www.hwcompare.com/11900/geforce-gtx-560-ti-vs-radeon-hd-7770/

It's not going to be a 7770. There is esram, DMEs, 2 extra shader cores, and no Directx API overhead, unless you believe in whatever Lottes wrote.

 

[Ashes]

Reading the article again I just realised that its a copy/paste of a Microsoft document or at least a document re-written by an American.

The fact I can't see AMD or GCN mentioned once makes me think that anyway.

Here is something Blu noticed about the specs in the article. If anyone want's to comment/explain what it could mean.

It doesn't mention GCN, so it has to be American? How do you come up with that?

 

[itsgreen]

Fuck all this technobabble. Let's have it in layman's terms.

How far can across the room can the masturbating wizard ejaculate his jizz?
I will accept measurement as X number of Gamecubes in a row.

If you balance the cubes on one of their corners, it's 49 cubes.

 

[Qwerty710710]

So, now that we know xbox 720 will be so far weaker than PS4, how is MS expecting to market it and sell it ?

Strange stuff, they must have all the exclusive games in the world to make sales this time around

Are all Sony fanboys this dumb as much as you want to believe ps4 is about equal to the 720. But that won't stop Sony fan boys though.

 

[dragonelite]

It's not going to be a 7770. There is esram, DMEs, 2 extra shader cores, and no Directx API overhead, unless you believe in whatever Lottes wrote.

The big fat sluggish OS better start trimming down

 

[Proelite]

Fuck all this technobabble. Let's have it in layman's terms.

How far can across the room can the masturbating wizard ejaculate his jizz?
I will accept measurement as X number of Gamecubes in a row.

The leak didn't give out multipliers.

CPU - Hard to say, 2-3x in raw peak performance, but since Durango has all the dsps to take the audio processing load off, probably 4x-5x in real world performance. (Traditionally 4-6x)
Useable Ram amount - 10-11x, (traditionally 8x, Orbis is 6-7x)
Ram bandwidth - 4.25 x, Orbis is ~8x PS3's.
GPU - 8x (traditionally 10x, Orbis is >=10x)

Considering that we're not going to see the resolution jump from 480p to 720p, I did say the visual impact of Durango games would be better received than 360 games did at reveal / launch. Lol wallguy.

I fully expect the system to be tapped out within a much shorter time period than the 360 did.

 

[pestul]

I can see a scenario where a multiplatform game running at 60fps on Orbis is shall we say, "less smooth" on Durango. Not necessarily 30fps but struggling to maintain 60fps, unless the developers lowered the resolution to compensate. That's probably what they will have to do for games that are only targeting 30fps on Orbis to begin with. Resolution, graphics effects, and image quality can all scale down easily enough. I read on B3D, this leak pretty much confirms its GPU is using the same GCN architecture as Orbis. So 1.8TF/32 Rops vs 1.2TF/16 Rops seems to be a significant advantage. Something will have to "give" on multiplatform ports. Each dev studio will decide what are the best trade offs to make in their particular game.

And Durango will probably be the lead on most multiplats again anyway, so it won't be an issue. Kind of disappointing that the most powerful platform doesn't get the lead though. Maybe that will change throughout the generation.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Maybe not necessarily better value for money, but the same value for money, or roughly the same value for money. Just less money (and comparable less value).




Think any other higher end car, a good Mercedes or BMW can get you within a reasonable margin of a Ferrari. Why pay that extra money for the extra performance a Ferrari might give you, while at the same time you can throw your groceries in the back of your M5.

Not again...
Ps3 isn't a ferrari from an engineering standpoint either, it'll come with a big hdd supposedly, it has plenty of ram, it won't be some insane one track mind machine.
It'll be able to function as a browser and media center just fine with this much ram.

Ps4 looks well balanced so far, xbox looks like all eggs in the kinect/non gaming service basket.

When buying a gaming machine the first thing a gamer will look for is games and how it plays games, I really don't care about what some soccer mom wants or what MS or anyone else thinks they can scam those people into buying.

Soccer moms aren't who supported the birth and growth of gaming, anyone who makes anything gaming related had best keep that in mind.

For anyone wanting to compare the 7770 to other GPUs you can use this:
http://www.hwcompare.com/11900/geforce-gtx-560-ti-vs-radeon-hd-7770/

That site is garbage, even http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html is better for single gpus and even that is only to be used as a very rough chart that you use to decide which gpus you want to look up in more detail with proper benchmarks on a proper benchmark site that uses updated drivers for their older gpus and lists frametimes and minimum fps and a variety of resolutions.

Seriously, don't use the one he linked.

 

[Zeal]

It will be unbearable if I have to boot up my Durango and scroll through 10,000 Live ads in a nice little clusterfuck of a Windows 8 offshoot. I can see it now, millions of animated tiles with streaming commercials coming at you like a game of Star Fox.

"Play Game" will be in size 2 font at the bottom left corner of the screen, but you must first buy 15 microtransactions before it appears.

Spoiler

Upon each boot.

 

[Feindflug]

The Ps4 has the GPU in the pocket.
Memory don't how that will end have to see when next gen ends.
Cpu we dont know yet ps4 so is rumored to have jaguar and next xbox i believe vgleaks said x86 cpu(?) so could be modified version of jaguar or it could be the same as ps4.

Then what other custom hardware is there on durango maybe a dsp chip for audio or something else, or completely nothing.

Too soon to tell and people would be stupid to preorder on basis from these leaks.
Im gonna wait for E3 1.4Tflops sounds a bit to weak for me even my goddam laptop has more processing power and i7 to boot.

So i hope the games will impress at E3 for both platform or else i will upgrade my desktop completely this year.

I'm in the same position as well (and a lot of other guys here in gaf as well I imagine), hopefully we'll see a lot of games from both Sony and MS at E3.

 

[Insane Metal]

The fuck? I left home, a few hours ago, and this thread had 12 pages... now it has 27. What the hell happened? More leaks?

Also, can anyone compare the fillrate of Durango's GPU and Orbis' GPU?

 

[Tripp Daily]

I fully expect the system to be tapped out within a much shorter time period than the 360 did.

Do you think this leads to a shorter console cycle this generation?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It doesn't mention GCN, so it has to be American? How do you come up with that?

No. American because of spelling of "Optimization" and "Color" ect. I'm just terrible at explaining things. The reason GCN or AMD isn't mentioned is probably because Microsoft don't want to mention them in docs to devs for whatever reason?

They see it as their GPU not AMD's?

 

[IntelliHeath]

(1) TechGAF is so far giving PS4 the nod in terms of raw GPU power
(2) DebateGAF, on the other hand, seems to slightly leaning towards 720 in terms of number of strawman arguments made in the 720's "favour".

But that last benchmark is still being discussed

Thank for the update. I'm not that great with tech talks.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Nice hyperbole and misinterpreting.
It's more like anyone who bought a new car in the last several years is driving a golf GT or better.
Lots of people have an elise or anything in between and a few people own a bugatti.
And sony/ms decided to release a golf gti and a golf gt respectively 2 years later, on the assumption that everyone who has been stuck driving a Lada for the past 8 years will be thrilled to get rid of it and upgrade.

Anyone who points to the wide breadth of sedans and sportscars available filling the space between a golf gti and a bugatti gets called a fanboy or a 'master racer' (heh get it, cars)

It would be nice to be able to discuss things in shades of grey and with some sense of perspective instead of in black and white hyperbole.

You've missed my point entirely, but not going to get off topic.

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

It's really very different shit. Unprecedented shit in a way, there never have been consoles that were as architecturally close before. It's more like comparing two Android tablets. Maybe even closer than that, those could at least have different GPU architectures.

This right here, so true. This is why people are making a big deal about slight or even significant advantages of one or the other.

Honestly this makes the gap between the two consoles even bigger when it comes to a real world performance and what the end user will see on the screen. Assuming all these specs are true and Orbis has twice as many ROP's, 3x bandwidth, and 600 more gflops.

Your comparing apples to apples now. Before it was like comparing 3 apples to 5 oranges. PS3 and 360 were too different. Now the comparison is much more fair. There both using the same cpu's and the same GPU tech and gpu architecture.

 

[Ol No Bones]

I love the Sony wins mentality people have here. We literally have no official news about these consoles.

 

[Dirtbag]

It will be unbearable if I have to boot up my Durango and scroll through 10,000 Live ads in a nice little clusterfuck of a Windows 8 offshoot.

"Play Game" will be in size 2 font at the bottom left corner of the screen, but you must first buy 15 microtransactions before it appears.

Spoiler

Upon each boot.

I just don't really need a medihub thing at all.
I've got a smart tv already and a DVR. I don't really care about any of that implied focus.

I want my videogame box to do videogames, and thats it.

 

[Raistlin]

Are all Sony fanboys this dumb as much as you want to believe ps4 is about equal to the 720. But that won't stop Sony fan boys though.

About equal? lulz no


Also you may want to do something about that avatar.

 

[Zeal]

God these console wars are going to be the shit of legend come E3. I don't think my body is actually ready this time.

 

[mrklaw]

At best they'll be outclassed by integrated graphics solutions within 3-4 years of launch since they're releasing right before revolutions in semi-conductor technologies.

If I was Sony, I would have waited until 2014 to unleash the proper 8-9 year leap.

We're already overdue. Get them out there, and have a normal 5 year gen then roll in all the advances in tech

 

[SneakyStephan]

Honestly this makes the gap between the two consoles even bigger when it comes to a real world performance and what the end user will see on the screen. Assuming all these specs are true and Orbis has twice as many ROP's, 3x bandwidth, and 600 more gflops.

Your comparing apples to apples now. Before it was like comparing 3 apples to 5 oranges. PS3 and 360 were too different. Now the comparison is much more fair. There both using the same cpu's and the same GPU tech and gpu architecture.

This has been said a hundred times before and it's why there is so much discussion with people comparing them or speculating or guessing, but that won't stop every page having at least one guy going 'lol like xbox 1.5' or 'lol like ps3 >>> 360'.

Something something study showing a lack of critical thinking skills in 50 percent of university and college students something.

 

[Proelite]

We're already overdue. Get them out there, and have a normal 5 year gen then roll in all the advances in tech

Personally I think they can have consoles that are 10x Durango / Orbis easily within 3-4 years.