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AMD to sell a cut down version of Sony's PS4 APU

onQ123

Member
Wishfull thinking. VU are not some magical performance boosters.

If that would be true we would already hear that on meeting.



"He said, "Everything that Sony has shared in that single chip is AMD [intellectual property]"



All Sony showed was the CPU & GPU that AMD made do you think Sony just laid around & waited for AMD to make their PS4 then added some Ram ,a Blu-ray drive & controller?


Sony had to be doing something their is way more to the PS4 than what they showed at the meeting.


& if the VU don't enhance performance why are the games that use the SPE's better looking than the games that don't use them?
 

onQ123

Member
#TeamVectorUnit

Sony Patent

INFORMATION PROCESSING APPARATUS, APPLICATION PROVISION SYSTEM, APPLICATION PROVISION SERVER, AND INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD

INFORMATION PROCESSING APPARATUS, APPLICATION PROVISION SYSTEM, APPLICATION PROVISION SERVER, AND INFORMATION PROCESSING METHOD

Abstract
In an information processing apparatus, a motion vector acquisition unit acquires the movement of a cursor of a pointing device as a motion vector. A display unit displays an execution screen for an application. The display unit displays an operation area for operating an operation target in the application in an area of a display screen different from an area for displaying the execution screen. A conversion unit obtains the moving direction and the amount of displacement of the display position of the operation target based on the motion vector, acquired by the motion vector acquisition unit, of the cursor of the pointing device in the operation area.
 

onQ123

Member
wat?

is this suppose to be similar to the cell you were talking about? was it 8 vector units?

I'm guessing that this is the Specter Vector chip that MikeR seen but didn't know what it was for. The Cell had 7 Vector Units the SPE's which was good at things like image processing so things like the PlayStation Move tracking was done with the SPE's & the patent is for a Motion Vector tracking Unit pretty much a chip for tracking the Controller , PlayStation Move & maybe your hands & head.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1714789&postcount=828

The PS4 specter vector? I'm not a 100% sure what it is at this stage... I'm 45% leaning towards physics offloading or helping out within that department. The other 55% is screaming a modified component for helping PS3 games work within the G/Cloud environment.
 
Using a PC mouse as a game controller.

In this background, a purpose of the present invention is to provide a technology for allowing an application, which is designed to be operated by a specialized controller, to be operated using a versatile input device.

Games developed being designed to be executed on specialized hardware are often designed to be operated using specialized game controllers. On the other hand, in the case where a game is executed using a game emulator that operates on a versatile PC (Personal Computer) or a server, it cannot be guaranteed that a game controller is prepared as an input device. Therefore, there is a need for techniques that allow various games to be operated using a versatile input device such as a pointing device represented by a mouse.
 
it's replacing the SPE's that was used for tracking the PlayStation Move & things like that.

Yea about that, SPEs were used for that because that was all they could use. Since you know Cell was the CPU and RSX was the GPU. But I hope you don't expect this patent to be effectively what SPEs were to cell. You're going to be disappointed.
 

onQ123

Member
Yea about that, SPEs were used for that because that was all they could use. Since you know Cell was the CPU and RSX was the GPU. But I hope you don't expect this patent to be effectively what SPEs were to cell. You're going to be disappointed.

that's not what I expect from this patent but the patent pointed to there being Vector Units like a few rumors have pointed to.
 

jaosobno

Member
Using a PC mouse as a game controller.

Could this be linked to the inevitable Gaikai PC app (something deployed server side), or is it strictly bound to PS4?

I always thought it was only a matter of time before Sony deploys Gaikai app on PC and mobile devices.
 
that's not what I expect from this patent but the patent pointed to there being Vector Units like a few rumors have pointed to.

Again, not the same "vector units" like SPEs were to cell. I mean an low powered ARM CPU who's only task is to "acquire the movement of a cursor of a pointing device" would be considered a "vector unit" and would do nothing to improve overall system performance in the ways the rumor you posted suggests.
 
Again, not the same "vector units" like SPEs were to cell. I mean an low powered ARM CPU who's only task is to "acquire the movement of a cursor of a pointing device" would be considered a "vector unit" and would do nothing to improve overall system performance in the ways the rumor you posted suggests.
There are lots of points for speculation in multiple patents that are logical and would benefit the PS4. There are also lots of reasons to eliminate many depending on Sony plans that we can not know.

OnQ123's point is valid but does not take into consideration that while the PS3 and Xbox 360 used the CPU and GPU for vector calculations because there were no Custom ASIC chips, this generation there are custom Low Power ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuits) for Codecs (previously used the GPU in the Xbox 360 and I think used the SPEs in the PS3). The NUI (Kinect Natural User Interface) used the GPU or CPU in the Xbox 360 and now it's in a low power ASIC chip with it's own memory in Kinect 2.

The only need not addressed is 2 camera S3D vector graphics calculations that are needed by the PS Eye and future Head mounted glasses. I don't know how that is going to be implemented but that could be another ASIC or handled by the low power GPU which if it's a current design is a ARM Mali 600 series with OpenCL 1.1 support.

AMD PC GPUs contained the Codec ASICs in line with Microsoft using the GPU as a choke point for DRM but there are now AMD GPUs (mobile second GPU) that do not contain the Codec ASICs, they relied on the APU as in APU + GPU to contain the Codec ASIC. The PS4 uses a custom GPU based design without Codecs as those are part of the ARM IP in the PS4 and part of the first AMD SoCs that can contain third party IP because they have HSA designs with fabric memory controller that can marry different ISA families (AMD X86 & ARM Buss and more).
 
or The DS4 touch pad & other touch controls like a iPad being used to control games.
Mouse is a different device, touchpads give absolute locations and are easier to calculate vectors directly from the triggered sensors. Mouse is a direction and velocity vector from the pulse timing of two sensors at 90 degrees to each other or with optical mice from pulses by bouncing light off printing dots or objects like wood grain in two angles 90 degrees apart which needs much more calculation. I don't understand patenting this as just about every programmer does this or the OS does this for you.

EDIT: any Formica desktop except pitch black, pure white or any pure color has printed dots that make up the color. The dots are used with optical mice. If a Formica desktop does not have dots or wood grain then you have to use a mouse pad with printing or grain of some kind.
 

onQ123

Member
Pretty good article


What is an APU – AMD Jaguar featured in the PS4 explained

The age of the APU is firmly here – and for low power devices, it brings a plethora of various benefits.
An APU (or, to give it its full name Accelerated Processing Unit) integrates the CPU and GPU on one die. The idea behind this really started to hit home after AMD bought out / merged with ATI. AMD then started a new project by the name of fusion. The concept behind this merger is to reduce the number of components, along with heat and power, while bringing performance up along with it.
AMD Fusion (as it was formerly known) was rebranded recently to AMD Accelerated Processing Unit. It’s a type of SoC (System on Chip). For home PC systems, there are obvious issues with this – including limiting the upgrade path, however, for cheaper systems, laptops and other lower power devices, an APU starts to make increasing sense.

Dataflow for AMD’s Bobcat APU similar to the Jaguar
It’s becoming increasingly more common tasks are being given to the GPU that aren’t just graphics. The nature of a GPU is such that it’s extremely good with parrel calculations. Certain applications on your PC take advantage of these heavily. Video editing applications, such as Adobe Premiere, are a fantastic example of the GPU being used for more than just game graphics’. Hardware Physx (using Nvidia’s Cuda technology that you swould see on say their Geforce cards) are another.
Sony’s Playstation 4 APU has been constructed to allow the GPU to help the CPU out with certain calculations when required, via use of the various GCN cores. The PS4 sports 18 of these GCN cores, which combined put out around 1.84Teraflops of compute power. The CPU part of the APU package is the weaker side of things. The AMD Jaguar uses 8 cores, clocked at 1.6GHZ. The Jaguar is itself, based on a redesign and improvement of AMD’s Bobcat.
The APU drastically improves data flow, eliminating the need for the data to ‘flow out’ and around the motherboard. It allows huge amounts more data to be accessed by the GPU/CPU. The thoughts behind it are simple – to combine a general purpose CPU cores with programmable vector processing engines. Or, to put it into another way – the PS4′s APU will be based on technology that ties CPU Scalar processing with high performance Parallel Processing.

architecture of the South Islands GPU – Which is inside the APU of the PS4
In the AMD APU solution (so that would be for example, the Playstation 4′s Jaguar), a fully programmable X86 (although the PS4 version also combines X64 instructions too) CPU with the vector processing power of a GPU is tied together on a single piece of silicon by a super high performance bus. They are both are able to access the RAM (in the Playstation 4′s case, the 176GB/S of the GDDR5). The Silicon of the APU generally contains other important system elements, for example the I/O controller and memory controllers. A lot of the functionality normally placed on the northbridge, thus reducing the bandwidth needed to shuttle data around the board.
Vector processors have been built into GPU’s for awhile now, and are made up of thousands upon thousands of compute cores. These compute cores (known as shaders) each can operate simultaneously and can be fully programmed.
The Playstation 4′s Jaguar APU is the most complicated that AMD have built so far – and AMD are planning to sell cut down versions of the core to computer vendors (although currently, they’ll only be 4 cores. Also, obviously lacking the Sony specific changes).

Some numerically intensive problems lend themselves to parallel algorithms, and others don’t. When a machine optimized for parallel computation encounters a problem that cannot be computed in a parallel manner, the machine operates as an inefficient scalar processor, and most of its parallel computing resources sit idle. Conversely, a processor optimized for scalar calculations cannot exploit the parallelism in many algorithms, and thus is limited by its scalar processing speed.
As said early, the playstation 4 uses the Jaguar APU. The Jaguar offers numerous improvements over the Bobcat core used in the company’s existing “Brazos” platform. Jaguar not only doubles the amount of cores, from two to four, but also the size of Level 2 cache to 2MB, and it makes the cache shareable among all the cores.

AMD Bobcat APU specs vs the PS4′s Jaguar APU specs
What are Scalar CPU’s?
Scalar Processors (so, the CPU “Jaguar” part of the APU inside the Playstation 4) operate on arrays of data, element by element. let’s say an application needs to say add a 1000 elements in vector A to a separate list of 1000 in Vector B, and then store the combination of these results in Vector C. It will generally set pointers to each of the vectors, and load the ‘values’ pointed to by both A and B into the CPU registers. It will then add those together and then store them in the location of C. However, to do all of this it would require the CPU to complete this work 1000 times!
So what about Vector Processors – like in the PS4′s GCN Units
Advanced GPU’s have hundreds of units available to calculate instructions, and can all operate simultaneously. Let’s assume the same problem as before, and the application in question wants to add two one-thousand element vectors using just say 10 of the processing units on the GPU. The software will then send the work to each of the units at the same time, so they’ll all be working to calculate the results in around a tenth of the time that the CPU would… but like most things in IT, it’s never quite that easy.

The architecture of Bobcat -the Jaguar Predecessor
You’ve also got to consider several other variables – such as the time it takes to set these operations up to begin with (after all, it’s not just magic that things work), time taken to ensure that the calculations have been done, and correctly too, and the time taken to actually move the data around from the Scalar CPU’s RAM and the RAM of the GPU. In other words, latency introduced from the simple act of the two devices telling each other what the other one is doing.
Because APU’s combine the two together on the same die, the APU doesn’t have these issues. Sony have worked with AMD in constructing an absolute monster of a die. The Playstation 4′s APU will be able to move data around extremely quickly, with the GCN cores tightly integrated with the CPU, both with direct access to the same memory controller. In the case of the Playstation 4 (which obviously will require plenty of bandwidth to keep the CPU and GPU satisfied) – the systems designers went with GDDR5 RAM. The CPU and GPU will both be able to be used to compliment the weaknesses of the other.

http://www.redgamingtech.com/what-is-an-apu-featured-in-the-ps4/
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
If 'four cores' refers to the CUs, then that's very cut down indeed from PS4 and no need for anyone to panic. It also seems a bit odd - wouldn't that be more in line with AMD evolving their existing APU line rather than being a cut down version of PS4? I don't see the difference which created the headline.
 

strata8

Member
If 'four cores' refers to the CUs, then that's very cut down indeed from PS4 and no need for anyone to panic. It also seems a bit odd - wouldn't that be more in line with AMD evolving their existing APU line rather than being a cut down version of PS4? I don't see the difference which created the headline.

Last I heard the rumour was 1 Jaguar CU and 2 GCN CUs for the Jaguar-based APUs. PS4 is 2 Jaguar CUs and 18 GCN CUs, so the APUs wouldn't get anywhere near the performance of the PS4.
 

Perkel

Banned
GDC PS4 talk in in few days. It would be good to see some new info.

If it really contains VU in same manner like PS3 SPE but without any input from dev this could be big.

The thing is, no game @ PSMeeting had 4Tf look it could be:

a) APU wasn't yet finalized in earlier devkits (including custom stuff like Sony VU)
b) VU are overblown. Maybe it is just powering non gaming stuff (to offload for example system etc.)
c) their function is fixed and handle specific purposes like physic

Their existence is almost confirmed because to many sources like Eurogamer already talked about them. I think the biggest rumor is that those VU would be integrated into CPU so developer wouldn't need to type specific code for them.


Interesting days ahead.
 

onQ123

Member
Some times the answer can be right under our nose & we never see it.


Remember the sweetvar26 post about the PS4 chip?


PS4:

New Starsha GNB 28nm TSMC
Milos
Southern Islands

DX11
SM 5.0
Open CL 1.0
Quad Pixel pipes 4
SIMD’s 5
Texture Units 5TCP/2TCC
Render back ends 2
Scalar ALU’s 320

EDIT: Some of those were crossed, may be they were updated/changed at a later date, I have no idea.
Quote:
Couple of more updates

Graphic North Bridge(GNB) Highlights
Fusion 1.9 support
DCE 7.0
UVD 4.0
VCE
IOMMU
ACP
5x8 GPP PCIE cores
SCLK 800MHz/LCLK 800MHz



Pretty weak compared to the PS4 GPU huh?

wait what the hell is a 'Graphic North Bridge'?

google & what do you find?

http://www.indeed.com/r/Rami-Dornala/e0704aad508659b2

Rami Dornala
Waltham, MA
Work Experience
Graphic processor
AMD - Waltham, MA
September 2011 to Present
Project:1 GNB core SOC
Duration: Sept 2011 , till date
Location: AMD
Description:
GNB core is based on the AMD fusion core technology, The GNB is a fusion of Graphic processor, power optimizer, audio processor, south bridge and north bridge which share a common interface with system memory.

Role: Tech Lead, Was responsible for Delivery of verification for Tapeout
Contribution:
1. Responsible for Functional verification of GNB.
2. Integrated ACP IP into the GNB environment
3. Integrated ISP IP into the GNB environment.
4. Aware of BIA, IFRIT flows.
5. Responsible for SAMARA and PENNAR integration.
6. Involved in kabini coverage closure, involved in LSC for kabini
7. Involved in fc mpu integration.
8. ONION and GARLIC bus OVC understanding and GNB environment set up for samara database.
9. Involved in LSA for Samara and Pennar GNB's
10. Involved in setting up of Pennar database with GF libraries
9.Involved with migration of Pennar database from TSMC to GF libraries.

Team Size: 12
Technology used:
Verification environment is a hybrid mixture of System-C, SystemVerilog and C++ language.GNB is targeted for 20nm technological library with GF foundaries.
Project:2 G4Main SOC


oh so it's a Graphic North Bridge yeah that make's sense! wait no it doesn't this is just as crazy as Mark Cerny saying that the PS4 custom chip is a south bridge.


these people are crazy



wait what? ONION and GARLIC where have I seen that before?


lvp2.jpg
 

USC-fan

Banned
cool find! WOw that chip is really powerful. 320ALU! WHat!

20nm technological library with GF foundaries.
So does this mean this is targeted for future 20 nm. Makes sense...

Edit: Look like jeff found that in Dec

http://67.227.255.239/forum/showpost.php?p=45419442&postcount=403

1) "9.Involved with migration of Pennar database from TSMC to GF libraries. Which means Jaguar database too."
2) GNB is targeted for 20nm technological library with GF foundaries. 20nm Samara or the GNB only is 20nm ported and used in 2013.
3) Samara to launch in 2013 with DDR3/DDR3L (See AMD Roadmap for Mobile processors above) WideIO (speculation) with DDR3 would be a performance option not a Ultra Low Power so while Samara is positioned as a Ultra Low Power netbook with DDR3L wideIO, it also could be a performance (Laptop, Desktop) design which could form the core of a custom design for a Game Console.
4) See faint NDA required notice at the bottom of the AMD Mobile roadmap
5) 20nm earlier than in the New AMD Hiroshige roadmap is supported by the other AMD and GloFlo-TSMC process roadmaps in his article.
6) Samara would be produced by both TSMC and GloFlo likely at 20nm as at 28nm Gloflo is Gate first and TSMC is gate last (wild speculation). That both are producing it would suggest a large volume expected for those building blocks. I gather that Kabini is all TSMC and at 28nm.

On the APU, one of the key parts of the system is the data path between the GPU and memory
– Provides low latency access for CPU cores (optimized around caches)
ƒ Random access, branchy, single threaded, scalar code
– Provides high throughput access for GPU cores (optimized around latency hiding)
ƒ Streaming, vectorized, massively multithreaded, data-intensive code
ƒLlano introduces two new buses for the GPU to access memory:

AMD Fusion Compute Link (ONION):
ƒ This bus is used by the GPU when it needs to snoop the CPU cache, so is a coherent bus
ƒ This is used for cacheable system memory
– Radeon Memory Bus (GARLIC):
ƒ This bus is directly connected to memory and can saturate memory bandwidth, so is a non coherent bus
ƒ This is used for local memory and USWC (uncached speculative write combine)

http://amddevcentral.com/afds/assets/presentations/1004_final.pdf
 

nbthedude

Member
Why bother? It isn't like 8 cores @ 1.6ghz and graphics capable of >2tflops is even impressive in the PC gaming world. If anything AMD should be building a MORE powerful APU for the PC market.

Yes, the PS4 is impressive for (in theory) >$500 console, but when you're talking about it's specs on a Windows PC, it's very much middle of the road, and dare I say ... dated.

Yeah it really has me scratching my head about who they would be marketing these "cut down" versions too. Maybe mass market cheap laptops or something.
 

stryke

Member
GNB core is based on the AMD fusion core technology, The GNB is a fusion of Graphic processor, power optimizer, audio processor, south bridge and north bridge which share a common interface with system memory.

I don't quite understand. Does this imply that the southbridge and northbridge are one in the same chip?
 
Also This Patent show a Vector Processing Unit in what I believe to be the PlayStation 4

08384721-2+small.jpg


If that's the case then the IO processing unit is the Sony second custom chip as southbridge and the APU is the vertical block on the left. Notice that there is a memory pool for the IO processor. That indicates it's more than a Southbridge........

In APP mode or background mode it's probably this:

PS4 Custom chip ====PCIe==== AMD APU from the PS4 with 8 CPUs and GDDR5
{}
Video Out and IO

And in Game mode this which matches the patent:

AMD APU from the PS4 with 8 CPUs and GDDR5 ======PCIe====== PS4 custom chip as Southbridge == Video out and IO

Speculation here:
 
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