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Killzone 4 Uses Raytracing For Its Real-Time Reflections

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AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Raist said:
KZ3 used MLAA, I don't see why they'd change for KZSF. Unless they figured out something better.
Click to expand...

4x MSAA would be better. I'm not sure the PS4 has the hardware for fast MLAA. FXAA is cheap on everything.
 
B

backbreaker65

Banned
Damn their goal for Shadow Fall is life like on that theory photo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_29M8F-sRsU#t=4m48s

So that Feb. Presentation has a long way to go to achieve those visuals. Speaker state they will achieve this in far greater time than on previous console.

8676753978_504cf285e3_m.jpg
 
AgentP

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
velociraptor said:
God Of War 3 has the best implementation of MLAA so far. It looks so clean, yet sharp.
Click to expand...

It also doesn't have the geometry or contrast that makes MLAA fall apart, like KZ3.


Also, his name is Michal

1983330-drobot_trailer_screenshot.jpg
 
JCreasy

JCreasy

Member
B.O.O.M said:
Gotcha..thanks for the explanation



Confirms they have a new IP in development for PS4. :)
Click to expand...

Great news about the new IP :D Good to see some confirmation finally![/QUOTE]

This GREAT news.

The idea of a new IP from GG is a compelling prospect. They're obviously talented, tech wise. It seems the only things holding them back are the trappings of Killzone, which binds their imaginations.

I want them to really push themselves and try something new. Watching Bungie tackle a new project like Destiny really demonstrated for me how much artistic talent they had that was held back by Halo. Production-wise, Destiny feels like a legit western Final Fantasy - hyper-imaginative. If GG could push themselves like that, I have no doubt they would deliver something jaw-dropping. So much great potential here.
 
D

dragonelite

Member
phosphor112 said:
So more ROPs would allow more alpha channels? I thought Alpha was limited by bandwidth? Or is it both?
Click to expand...

The rops are limited by bandwidth.
At least that is what i got from those articles.

Randdalf said:
No. What I mean is that glossy reflections, in ray tracing, are done by basically simulating the same light bounce multiple times with a randomly offset angle determined by the roughness. All these simulations are then averaged together to produce the glossy reflection. A rougher surface hence becomes blurrier because the rays are more randomly spread. This becomes prohibitive because of the number of ray traces required is quite large to produce a good looking result.
Click to expand...

I got it now.

JohnnySasaki86 said:
So how is KZ SF not already doing that? How is what there doing different?
Click to expand...

As far as i know it now they shoot only one ray instead of lets say 16 rays under a angle that is offset by a random value.
And they do it half res too. I think this technique will be used by most devs next gen.
 
B

B.O.O.M

Member
SniperHunter said:
Verendus redeemed
Click to expand...

To be fair I think other sources talked about it before him on several sites iirc..but he did back it so yep props to him

JCreasy said:
This GREAT news.

The idea of a new IP from GG is a compelling prospect. They're obviously talented, tech wise. It seems the only things holding them back are the trappings of Killzone, which binds their imaginations.

I want them to really push themselves and try something new. Watching Bungie tackle a new project like Destiny really demonstrated for me how much artistic talent they had that was held back by Halo. Production-wise, Destiny feels like a legit western Final Fantasy - hyper-imaginative. If GG could push themselves like that, I have no doubt they would deliver something jaw-dropping. So much great potential here.
Click to expand...

Yea I agree. I love the fact sony is so willing to push new IP. I mean with this we now have 3 new IP for PS4 from Sony First party (Driveclub, Knack and this) plus 1 new IP from second party (The Quantic Dream title). New IP's are always exciting so I do hope they go on a completely different route than KZ

The last set of rumors said magic might be involved so people speculated it could be a WRPG

They had a job opening with the following wording

“Looking for a Dumbledore amongst FX Artists”
“sage-like leaders”
“FX wizards”
“Like a modern day Daedalus”
“monsters and ensnare the heroes”
“heroic concept artists spoken of in legend”
“little like a god”
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
AgentP said:
4x MSAA would be better. I'm not sure the PS4 has the hardware for fast MLAA. FXAA is cheap on everything.
Click to expand...
Almost anything works well in 1080p on a TV, since you don't sit very close to it. 2xMSAA+FSAA looks great as they compliment each other well, hell either of those alone looks very nice too.

I think 2xMSAA+MLAA would look fantastic as they're both non blurry, non destructive, and target different aspect of image better than the other.
 
D

dragonelite

Member
Randdalf said:
No. What I mean is that glossy reflections, in ray tracing, are done by basically simulating the same light bounce multiple times with a randomly offset angle determined by the roughness. All these simulations are then averaged together to produce the glossy reflection. A rougher surface hence becomes blurrier because the rays are more randomly spread. This becomes prohibitive because of the number of ray traces required is quite large to produce a good looking result.
Click to expand...

B.O.O.M said:
To be fair I think other sources talked about it before him on several sites iirc..but he did back it so yep props to him



Yea I agree. I love the fact sony is so willing to push new IP. I mean with this we now have 3 new IP for PS4 from Sony First party (Driveclub, Knack and this) plus 1 new IP from second party (The Quantic Dream title). New IP's are always exciting so I do hope they go on a completely different route than KZ

The last set of rumors said magic might be involved so people speculated it could be a WRPG

They had a job opening with the following wording

“Looking for a Dumbledore amongst FX Artists”
“sage-like leaders”
“FX wizards”
“Like a modern day Daedalus”
“monsters and ensnare the heroes”
“heroic concept artists spoken of in legend”
“little like a god”
Click to expand...

Shit that sounds so good maybe this ip will convince me to buy a next gen console.
/Knows they are for jobs. :(
 
D

Dusky

Member
B.O.O.M said:
To be fair I think other sources talked about it before him on several sites iirc..but he did back it so yep props to him
Click to expand...


What is there to backup when it was confirmed more or less by GG at least 2 years ago?

Yea I agree. I love the fact sony is so willing to push new IP. I mean with this we now have 3 new IP for PS4 from Sony First party (Driveclub, Knack and this) plus 1 new IP from second party (The Quantic Dream title). New IP's are always exciting so I do hope they go on a completely different route than KZ
Click to expand...

You can probably add SSM's new IP to that list too in terms of first party.

If anything gets me excited for next-gen it's new IP's
 
A

Akira

Member
Polyphony needs to get in touch with GG and finally get cars reflecting the real environment, including other cars.
 
K

KKRT00

Member
Metalmurphy said:
It already does reflect the environment, Just not other cars.
Click to expand...

Yes, because its using cubemaps, so prebaked reflections, but SSR will be norm next-gen.

---
Oh and in KZ:SF there is nothing about ray bouncing, SSR is working exactly like in other games.
 
S

SirIgbyCeaser

Banned
nice, i remember the PDF about Killzone 2 that was amazing.

BTW right of the bat.. Killzone Shadowfall was announced on "Final Ps4 devkit hardware" so all those 2GB devkit crap can be laid to rest. The demo was showcased with 8gb of ram, if the virtical used it all remains up to debate.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
KKRT00 said:
Yes, because its using cubemaps, so prebaked reflections, but SSR will be norm next-gen.

---
Oh and in KZ:SF there is nothing about ray bouncing, SSR is working exactly like in other games.
Click to expand...

umm yes there is. In the video they talk about how they can bounce the ray traced reflections multiple times. its near the end.

I'd like to add, all this makes what ND is doing with bounce lighting in TLOU all that more impressive, cause there doing it on PS3. Even though I'm assuming it isn't ray traced.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
KKRT00 said:
Now watch full video and see how they do SSR reflections, because they talk about it in depth.
Click to expand...

i was referring to the full video. they blending everything together, the cube maps, and the real time ray traced reflections, and they say they have the capability to bounce the lighting multiple times. think he says something like, "3, 4, 5 times, whatever is necessary".

I admit I got quite lost through a lot of it, but he specifically said they have the ability to bounce light multiple times through the reflections. I didn't think this comment was in the original video.
 
K

KKRT00

Member
JohnnySasaki86 said:
i was referring to the full video. they blending everything together, the cube maps, and the real time ray traced reflections, and they say they have the capability to bounce the lighting multiple times. think he says something like, "3, 4, 5 times, whatever is necessary".

I admit I got quite lost through a lot of it, but he specifically said they have the ability to bounce light multiple times through the reflections. I didn't think this comment was in the original video.
Click to expand...

Every game blends reflections together, thats why they are for.
And You missed part when they showed algorithm and said that they cut ray as soon as it hit the object, or that they only do it in screen-space?

It was in original video, but without a context.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
KKRT00 said:
Every game blends reflections together, thats why they are for.
And You missed part when they showed algorithm and said that they cut ray as soon as it hit the object, or that they only do it in screen-space?
Click to expand...

so what does he mean when hes saying they can bounce the lighting through the reflections multiple times? The first time its ray traced, and then 2nd, 3rd, 4th,...ect times are not?
 
K

KKRT00

Member
JohnnySasaki86 said:
so what does he mean when hes saying they can bounce the lighting through the reflections multiple times? The first time its ray traced, and then 2nd, 3rd, 4th,...ect times are not?
Click to expand...

No idea, he doesnt explain about what he is talking about in this case, he talks about sun reflections as a second pass or that they can reflect from more then one surfaces at once or they can reflect same object on more than one surfaces.
In actual presentation of tech there is nothing about bounced, actually they say otherwise.
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
onQ123 said:
'Digital Dragons - Michał Drobot (Guerrilla Games) - Killzone: Shadow Fall - Lighting'
Click to expand...

allright, I was watching the video on my phone, didn't see the full title. What kind of ambient occlusion are they using? SSAO? HBAO? or HDAO?

edit oh just lighting no shadowing ok...
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
SniperHunter said:
looks like he only talks about lighting and refelctions in this presentation, nothing on particles, destruction, AI or anything else.
Click to expand...

correct. Well the other main part is their production pipeline. Which I have a few comments on actually.

It seems like a lot of developers are going this direction with their engines, and that development time might decrease next gen. I know KojimaPro talked a lot about this with the FOX engine, and Capcom I think has made comments about their new engine being much more efficient too, as well as epic with UE4.

It seems like a lot of things are going to be automated now,(less pre backed textures, everything much more realtime, ect) instead of having to do a lot of things by hand, thus decreasing asset creation time.

I wonder if over all quality could decrease in some areas because of this. It seems like a lot of the power in these next gen consoles will be more applied ot the tools this time around, than say a bunch of new graphical features that make everything look better. Another wards it seems like this new gen is as much for the devs as it is for the consumers, or maybe even more so. Maybe this is a good thing as budgets, and team sizes, got pretty ridiculous this gen.

KKRT00 said:
No idea, he doesnt explain about what he is talking about, he talk about sun reflections as a second pass or that they can reflect from more then one surfaces at once or they can reflect same object on more than one surfaces.
In actual presentation of tech there is nothing about bounced, actually they say otherwise.
Click to expand...

Maybe this is referring to the aspect they couldn't go into full detail yet. He did mention that a couple times. Regardless its safe to assume they are using bounced lighting with there real time glossy reflections.
 
JonathanPower

JonathanPower

Member
dragonelite said:
Aah oke,
You have any links i can read into what they really do information about ROPS is really scarce on the internet. You get countless links that tell what feels like 30% of the story.
I want to clear this up what ROPS precisly do for myself.
Click to expand...

Yes I do, there is no better place than B3D when you are looking for a good article.

Render Output Units (AKA ROPs) and Memory interface

The ROPs logic of a GPU is the part that handles the resolve and blending of the pixels into a buffer. The most common type of buffer related to ROPs is the frame buffer, simply put the image that get out of the GPU and displayed onto the screen. You’re currently watching a frame buffer! …Unless of course, you decided to print this article. The ROPs are also the place where one of the most important image-quality related operations takes place: the multi sampling anti-aliasing (MSAA) The number of available ROPs, at a given clock speed, dictates the number of pixel you can output to the screen at any given moment. It dictates how fast you can write those pixels that have been shader coated in the Shader Core to memory - assuming the memory bus and speed are not a bottleneck.

That last assumption brings the other angle to the act of pixel committing pixels to memory: the available memory bandwidth.
Click to expand...

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/5
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
JohnnySasaki86 said:
correct. Well the other main part is their production timeline. Which I have a few comments on actually.

It seems like a lot of developers are going this direction with their engines, and that development time might decrease next gen. I know KojimaPro talked a lot about this with the FOX engine, and Capcom I think has made comments about their new engine being much more efficient too, as well as epic with UE4.

It seems like a lot of things are going to be automated now,(less pre backed textures, everything much more realtime, ect) instead of having to do a lot of things by hand, thus decreasing asset creation time.

I wonder if over all quality could decrease in some areas because of this. It seems like a lot of the power in these next gen consoles will be more applied ot the tools this time around, than say a bunch of new graphical features that make everything better. Another wards it seems like this new gen is as much for the devs as it is for the consumers, or maybe even more so. Maybe this is a good thing as budgets, and team sizes, got pretty ridiculous this gen.
Click to expand...

I've been saying this for a while. A lot of the processing power is going to be put toward doing stuff in real time to speed up asset creation and to make world's more reactive to player input instead of just looking better. Real time lighting, destruction, tesselation, and GPU enhanced physics will be used heavily for these purposes. I really like this direction and hopes it helps reduce some of the economic strain on the industry.
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
BTW he also mentioned outsourcing. So that's two Sony devs who are outsourcing asset creation, sounds like a great strategy to cut costs.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
SniperHunter said:
BTW he also mentioned outsourcing. So that's two Sony devs who are outsourcing asset creation, sounds like a great strategy to cut costs.
Click to expand...

Nearly all major developers do it. It's been standard practice for a while. A lot of smaller studios take the outsourced asset jobs between projects.
 
B

BruceLeeRoy

Banned
SniperHunter said:
BTW he also mentioned outsourcing. So that's two Sony devs who are outsourcing asset creation, sounds like a great strategy to cut costs.
Click to expand...

Sony has a couple studios within its umbrella that devs outsource to. Not saying they don't go outside of that but they have teams within Sony that help with asset creation and such.
 
J

JohnnySasaki86

Member
RoboPlato said:
I've been saying this for a while. A lot of the processing power is going to be put toward doing stuff in real time to speed up asset creation and to make world's more reactive to player input instead of just looking better. Real time lighting, destruction, tesselation, and GPU enhanced physics will be used heavily for these purposes. I really like this direction and hopes it helps reduce some of the economic strain on the industry.
Click to expand...

Yea I agree. I just hope overall quality doesn't decrease. Like it does in other industries when you compare things done by hand vs some machine.

I wouldn't be surprised if budgets decrease overall next gen. I mean later down the line after everybody's engines are matured and are more efficient. There obviously gonna take a couple of years for everyone to get these tools up and running, and then further enhance and tweak them. It seems at first illogical and backwards for budgets to decrease, but it may indeed be possible.

SniperHunter said:
BTW he also mentioned outsourcing. So that's two Sony devs who are outsourcing asset creation, sounds like a great strategy to cut costs.
Click to expand...

what was the other company you were referring to?
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
RoboPlato said:
Nearly all major developers do it. It's been standard practice for a while. A lot of smaller studios take the outsourced asset jobs between projects.
Click to expand...

BruceLeeRoy said:
Sony has a couple studios within its umbrella that devs outsource to. Not saying they don't go outside of that but they have teams within Sony that help with asset creation and such.
Click to expand...

right right, so now we know how Sony is "co-developing: Versus13 with Square :p

JohnnySasaki86 said:
what was the other company you were referring to?
Click to expand...

Quantic Dream, Heavy Rain cost them 16 million Euros to develop.
 
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