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[wsippel]

He could have not responded at all. He didn't do it just to bash the Wii U.

That's what he should have done either way.

Isn't it an ancient, dead line outside of Nintendo consoles?

It's a bit complicated. The last 750 released was the 750CL (2007), which is essentially Broadway with a few small changes here and there. The line evolved constantly until that point, then it was pretty much EOL'd. Espresso is a 750, but incorporates features from other, more modern PowerPC lines like the A2.

PPC750 hasn't evolved. PPC750 is PPC750. If you think IBM and Nintendo spent money to improve such an old architecture, I don't know what to tell you. IBM has since launched POWER4 through POWER7 since the days of PPC750, so it's not as if Nintendo couldn't have chosen a more recent POWER architecture CPU if they wanted to. They had 4 newer generations of POWER they could used for the Wii U. They wanted to be cheap and also maintain 100% binary compatibility with Wii and GC, so here we are.

Sorry, you're completely wrong.

 

[frankie_baby]

It's not like engines could have different requirements or anything...

Perhaps they could get it working; with time and effort and money maybe they could get it in a workable state.

Epic could probably do that with Unreal Engine 4 as well. But they're not going to either.

epic didnt port unreal 2.5 to gc or wii and there were several games that used it, (correct me if i'm wrong) but dont think they even ported ue3 to wii u

 

[Schnozberry]

PPC750 hasn't evolved. PPC750 is PPC750. If you think IBM and Nintendo spent money to improve such an old architecture, I don't know what to tell you. IBM has since launched POWER4 through POWER7 since the days of PPC750, so it's not as if Nintendo couldn't have chosen a more recent POWER architecture CPU if they wanted to. They had 4 newer generations of POWER they could used for the Wii U. They wanted to be cheap and also maintain 100% binary compatibility with Wii and GC, so here we are.

You don't think Nintendo spent any money improving the architecture? Can you point to any other PPC750 CPU's that are tri-core with large amounts of EDRAM cache? Or even one that runs at 1.25GHz? It's a pretty unique custom processor, whether you choose to believe it or not.

 

[LegoArmo]

I feel like engines that are very CPU intensive will have some trouble running on the Wii U (Frostbite, RAGE etc.) At least without a lot of optimisation pushing some load to the GPU.

Games on these engines were giving much better CPUs problems on PCs awhile back, but I'm a firm believer in where there's a will, there's a way. There's no will.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

You don't think Nintendo spent any money improving the architecture? Can you point to any other PPC750 CPU's that are tri-core with large amounts of EDRAM cache? Or even one that runs at 1.25GHz? It's a pretty unique custom processor, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Its like putting a jetpack on a corpse, sure.

 

[metalslimer]

Let's be real here. Even if they did like what they saw, EA is done with Wii U essentially. Maybe they would have gotten a token BF3 port at launch. Still Nintendo's problem and they have to suffer the consequences, but this had little to do with tech. If EA thought wii u would truly be successful there wouldn't be a question abotu FB3 on Wii U

 

[Schnozberry]

Its like putting a jetpack on a corpse, sure.

So what is a Jaguar Core? Putting two jet packs on a coma patient?

 

[wsippel]

Its like putting a jetpack on a corpse, sure.

Just like any modern x86 then.

 

[EDarkness]

It's not like engines could have different requirements or anything...

Perhaps they could get it working; with time and effort and money maybe they could get it in a workable state. If they wanted to they could probably get some form of the engine working on all manner of hardware.

Epic could probably do that with Unreal Engine 4 as well. But they're not going to either.

But didn't Epic say that Unreal 4 can run on the Wii U?

You heard the stupid gaffe yesterday about the Wii U. If someone wants to take Unreal Engine 4 and ship a game on Wii U, they can! If they wanna ship an Unreal Engine 4 game on Xbox 360, they could make it happen.

http://**************/2013/04/epic-games-says-the-wii-u-can-run-unreal-4/

So if Unreal 4 can run, I see no reason why Frostbite 2/3 can't run on the Wii U and run well enough to get a game out. If the 360/PS3 can do it, there's no reason why the Wii U can't.

 

[frankie_baby]

I feel like engines that are very CPU intensive will have some trouble running on the Wii U (Frostbite, RAGE etc.) At least without a lot of optimisation pushing some load to the GPU.

Games on these engines were giving much better CPUs problems on PCs awhile back, but I'm a firm believer in where there's a will, there's a way. There's no will.

when people talk about engines being cpu centric do they tend to be general purpose code (which esspresso is great at) or floating point ((which its not so great at?), just wondering, i know AI code is usually general but apart from that i'm clueless

 

[frankie_baby]

Its like putting a jetpack on a corpse, sure.

and how would you describe improvements to x86 which is a far more ancient architecture


edit - ▲▲ far better reponses

 

[Sid]

It's at the point where it really doesn't matter if the WiiU can run FB3 or not,EA simply doesn't give a shit about the U.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

and how would you describe improvements to x86 which is a far more ancient architecture

The core has made much more radical improvements in performance in 8 years than Wii CPU apparently has to Wii U's CPU.

And no I'm not referring to AMD's APU.

 

[The_Intruder]

It's at the point where it really doesn't matter if the WiiU can run FB3 or not,EA simply doesn't give a shit about the U.

This!

 

[EDarkness]

It's at the point where it really doesn't matter if the WiiU can run FB3 or not,EA simply doesn't give a shit about the U.

This is what he should have said in the first place or not said anything at all.

 

[frankie_baby]

The core has made much more radical improvements in performance in 8 years than Wii CPU apparently has to Wii U's CPU.

And no I'm not referring to AMD's APU.

while i'm sure you meant the other way round outside of going tri core and the vast cache increase we know little o fwhat improvements have happened to the wii u cpu, could be nothing could be a lot

 

[squidyj]

It's at the point where it really doesn't matter if the WiiU can run FB3 or not,EA simply doesn't give a shit about the U.

with the way it's been selling and stuff has been selling on it it doesn't seem like there's much of a reason they should.

 

[wsippel]

The core has made much more radical improvements in performance in 8 years than Wii CPU apparently has to Wii U's CPU.

What kind of performance are you talking about? Per clock? Per Watt? Per square millimeter? Not that it really matters, as we have no performance figures for Espresso to begin with...

 

[shinra-bansho]

But didn't Epic say that Unreal 4 can run on the Wii U?

So if Unreal 4 can run, I see no reason why Frostbite 2/3 can't run on the Wii U and run well enough to get a game out. If the 360/PS3 can do it, there's no reason why the Wii U can't.

If someone wants to take Unreal Engine 4 and put in the time, money and work into cutting it down until it's in some workable state for the Wii U I'm sure they could. Someone besides DICE could probably do it with Frostbite 3 as well if it wasn't an internal engine, although how much the product would resemble the origin I don't know.

DICE already had Frostbite 2 running on the PS3 and 360. Frostbite 3 is apparently a direct upgrade of Frostbite 2. If it wasn't, I could hazard to say they wouldn't bother porting it to the PS3 and 360 either.

 

[Schnozberry]

If someone wants to take Unreal Engine 4 and put in the time, money and work into cutting it down until it's in some workable state for the Wii U I'm sure they could. Someone besides DICE could probably do it with Frostbite 3 as well if it wasn't an internal engine, although how much the product would resemble the origin I don't know.

DICE already had Frostbite 2 running on the PS3 and 360. Frostbite 3 is apparently a direct upgrade of Frostbite 2. If it wasn't, I could hazard to say they wouldn't bother either.

It's way more about ROI than performance. To claim otherwise is ignoring history. Remember when the PS3 was too much of a drain on resources for Valve to get source engine running on PS3? A hat full of money later, Orange Box is on it's way.

 

[shinra-bansho]

It's way more about ROI than performance. To claim otherwise is ignoring history. Remember when the PS3 was too much of a drain on resources for Valve to get source engine running on PS3? A hat full of money later, Orange Box is on it's way.

It's about ROI, sure. Hardware just makes it that much more difficult to justify ROI. And performance/hardware factors into audience factors into ROI.

The hardware factors into considerations about who would be buying the platform.

People have admitted as much in the Wii U 2013 games thread that they aren't "an extra sale" they're just moving one sale to another platform. It's not worthwhile investment, unless they expect en masse migration (which they don't).

EDIT: Also, I don't think Valve did the Orange Box on PS3?

 

[Stripper13]

with the way it's been selling and stuff has been selling on it it doesn't seem like there's much of a reason they should.

It's interesting really. At least with the Wii - it had the commercial success, despite being weak hardware wise. So there was some merit to the ignorant/lazy dev argument - not always, but sometimes.

The Wii U has nothing to stand on. No one seems to have hit it out of the park yet - which is surprising given Nintendo dropped a 2D Mario early on. There's absolutely no point getting worked up over EA/Dice ignoring the Wii U with frostbite, Madden, BF4 etc. Because there's no solid argument to say - hey guys, this could work... because nothing is working.

Time will tell I guess.

 

[EDarkness]

If someone wants to take Unreal Engine 4 and put in the time, money and work into cutting it down until it's in some workable state for the Wii U I'm sure they could. Someone besides DICE could probably do it with Frostbite 3 as well if it wasn't an internal engine, although how much the product would resemble the origin I don't know.

DICE already had Frostbite 2 running on the PS3 and 360. Frostbite 3 is apparently a direct upgrade of Frostbite 2. If it wasn't, I could hazard to say they wouldn't bother either.

Unreal 4 is a scalable engine that they're planning to make available to smartphones and tablets as well. It would be in their best interest to have a Wii U license for the engine for companies who want to go that route and from his comment, it seems as if they do.

I'm just not gonna believe that DICE (who are supposedly good programmers) can't get this stuff working well on the Wii U. If they can get it working on the 360 and PS3 (which would take some know-how), then it stands to reason they can do it for the Wii U which is more capable hardware.

Maybe they don't want to do it, but that's a different issue all-together.

 

[stryke]

EDIT: Also, I don't think Valve did the Orange Box on PS3?

Correct. It was outsourced.

 

[frankie_baby]

It's interesting really. At least with the Wii - it had the commercial success, despite being weak hardware wise. So there was some merit to the ignorant/lazy dev argument - not always, but sometimes.

The Wii U has nothing to stand on. No one seems to have hit it out of the park yet - which is surprising given Nintendo dropped a 2D Mario early on. There's absolutely no point getting worked up over EA/Dice ignoring the Wii U with frostbite, Madden, BF4 etc. Because there's no solid argument to say - hey guys, this could work... because nothing is working.

Time will tell I guess.

2d mario wasnt the showcase title they needed think its clear now its a title that sells when the system is selling, therevhave been some 3rd party almost sucesses, sonic racing was the best selling version and epic mickey 2 outsold all but the wii version, i think its obvious the star wars games will sell decent on wii u and hopefully they could be the push it takes to get ea to port frostbite

 

[AzaK]

Haha this thread needed that.

That last Twitter post needs more Salt:

This post, OTOH, is so sad and desperate on so many levels.

Please explain how and ensure you go back over the development of Wii U dev kits and advancements. Connect them with the time DICE got their kit (you must obviously know this in order to raise the point you did) and tell me why you are sure DICE knows as much about WiiU as some people here who have seen more recent specs and internals.

Please also be aware that I was not claiming what I said as fact but speculating why DICE's decision might have been premature.

Your turn.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Sorry, you're completely wrong.

What kind of performance are you talking about? Per clock? Per Watt? Per square millimeter? Not that it really matters, as we have no performance figures for Espresso to begin with...

So, on the one hand you can dismiss me as being 'completely wrong' while also on the other hand admitting you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary regarding Espresso?

I'm done here. The developers have spoken anyways, and they are all that matters.

 

[Dictator93]

people think Repi, of all people, would lie about Wii U performance?

The guy is intelligent, a great programmer, and generally has proven to be anything but a liar.
These WiiU apologist/fanboys are ridiculous... really?

Lead Engine Tech design says it is not powerful enough for his engine... and he must be lying. RIGHHHHHHHHT.

 

[daxgame]

Lol I think some people are being a bit salty, I do believe the engine didn't perform favorably.
Now, I refuse to believe FB2 can't run well instead, since even Cry Engine 3 runs "beautifully" apparently but I can see why FB3 would require considerable adjustments to run as desired. No need to be mad about that, blame Nintendo.

 

[StevieP]

So, on the one hand you can dismiss me as being 'completely wrong' while also on the other hand admitting you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary regarding Espresso?

I'm done here. The developers have spoken anyways, and they are all that matters.

compare Broadway to xenon in general purpose. Those numbers exist. There is a thread on gaf somewhere I believe.

people think Repi, of all people, would lie about Wii U performance?

The guy is intelligent, a great programmer, and generally has proven to be anything but a liar.
These WiiU apologist/fanboys are ridiculous... really?

Lead Engine Tech design says it is not powerful enough for his engine... and he must be lying. RIGHHHHHHHHT.

He didn't say the console wasn't powerful enough for his engine, actually, unless someone mistranslated that English from its original English. The PS360 will be receiving multiple FB3 games as well.

 

[klapauzius]

people think Repi, of all people, would lie about Wii U performance?

The guy is intelligent, a great programmer, and generally has proven to be anything but a liar.
These WiiU apologist/fanboys are ridiculous... really?

Lead Engine Tech design says it is not powerful enough for his engine... and he must be lying. RIGHHHHHHHHT.

What is he supposed to answer if in reality they don't invest time in Wii U because EA don't want to them to? By the way, he never said the Wii U was not powerful enough.

There are other, similar engines to frostbite that runs fine on Wii U. I think thats all one needs to know about it.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm inclined to believe the guy. I think he might have some experience with this sort of thing.

 

[LCGeek]

Lol I think some people are being a bit salty, I do believe the engine didn't perform favorably.
Now, I refuse to believe FB2 can't run well instead, since even Cry Engine 3 runs "beautifully" apparently but I can see why FB3 would require considerable adjustments to run as desired. No need to be mad about that, blame Nintendo.

It's a typical talking a point from a company that always acts interested and then pulls something like this.

Considerable adjustments is how much time in terms of development?

I blame both companies EA as usually for calling it in early and not really digging deep and nintendo refusing to come to grips with the fact most big companies pull this each generation when it comes to 3rd party titles.

 

[EDarkness]

people think Repi, of all people, would lie about Wii U performance?

The guy is intelligent, a great programmer, and generally has proven to be anything but a liar.
These WiiU apologist/fanboys are ridiculous... really?

Lead Engine Tech design says it is not powerful enough for his engine... and he must be lying. RIGHHHHHHHHT.

The thing is this...if other developers couldn't get their engines working, then I'd be more inclined to believe what this guy is saying. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. So ONLY these guys can't get their engine working? On better hardware? It's just unbelievable.

Considering the situation with EA and Nintendo at the moment, we know there's something going on there. Of course, none of us know what that is, but I'm more inclined to believe that this is the main reason why there's no Frostbite 2 or 3.

This is just my opinion of what he said and I'd say he should back what he's saying up with some more details because what he says by itself doesn't make much sense to me. I guess if someone is going to believe that the Wii U is weaker than the 360, then I could see why people would take what he said as gospel. Also, devs are sometimes not so honest about things from time to time. They should be questioned, especially when others are doing or saying different things.

 

[Aostia]

Let's be real here. Even if they did like what they saw, EA is done with Wii U essentially. Maybe they would have gotten a token BF3 port at launch. Still Nintendo's problem and they have to suffer the consequences, but this had little to do with tech. If EA thought wii u would truly be successful there wouldn't be a question abotu FB3 on Wii U

This: Nintendo problem, but not related to the HW.

 

[pottuvoi]

The thing is this...if other developers couldn't get their engines working, then I'd be more inclined to believe what this guy is saying. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. So ONLY these guys can't get their engine working? On better hardware? It's just unbelievable.

It's most likely not about getting the engine working, but getting the games they are working on squeezed to the system.

 

[squidyj]

I'm inclined to believe the guy. I think he might have some experience with this sort of thing.

what are you talking about dave? clearly random people on the internet know better.

 

[Hypron]

The thing is this...if other developers couldn't get their engines working, then I'd be more inclined to believe what this guy is saying. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. So ONLY these guys can't get their engine working? On better hardware? It's just unbelievable.

He didn't say they could not get their engine working on the platform. He said they did some preliminary tests that didn't yield promising results. It probably would have taken them too much time (and hence money) to get the engine running well on the wii-u (since it has a different architecture than the other consoles that are already running the engine).

They deemed the cost of porting the engine too high for the sales they would have made on the platform. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Xater]

This alo confirms that you won't EA games on the console in the future. This goes beyon Madden brcause will use that engine for almost everything.

 

[Maximilian E.]

This alo confirms that you won't EA games on the console in the future. This goes beyon Madden brcause will use that engine for almost everything.

Yup, Frotbite3 seems to be powering EAs coming games. The FB3 engine seems to be EAs bet for the future.
Unfortunately, Nintendo did not bet on the future with HW (in a way)..

But sure, if Nintendo throws money at EA, then some kind of version of the FB3 engine can be customized but is Nintendo willing to throw money at EAs way?

 

[Sid]

This!

This is what he should have said in the first place or not said anything at all.

But I'll take him on his word here,clearly he knows more than any random GAF user.

with the way it's been selling and stuff has been selling on it it doesn't seem like there's much of a reason they should.

Of course.

 

[EDarkness]

He didn't say they could not get their engine working on the platform. He said they did some preliminary tests that didn't yield promising results. It probably would have taken them too much time (and hence money) to get the engine running well on the wii-u (since it has a different architecture than the other consoles that are already running the engine).

They deemed the cost of porting the engine too high for the sales they would have made on the platform. What's so hard to understand about that?

But isn't that a different issue entirely? They tried it at some point (we don't even know when), got some kind of result, stopped doing anything. The issue here isn't the engine itself, it's something else entirely. Which is what he should have said originally, because all it does otherwise is fuel this notion that the hardware wasn't "powerful" enough, which shouldn't be the case. If the PS3/360 can do it, then the Wii U should as well.

It stands to reason that if everything was cool with Nintendo, you can bet they'd have FB3 up and running on the hardware with no problems at all.

 

[TheD]

Just like any modern x86 then.

x86 is an ISA, not a microarchitecture!
Anyone with knowledge of processors should know that!

 

[michaelius]

What kind of performance are you talking about? Per clock? Per Watt? Per square millimeter? Not that it really matters, as we have no performance figures for Espresso to begin with...

All of them - comparing to 2005 Pentium IV you get 4 cores into TDP of one, and all of them are at least twice as fast in single threaded workloads.

 

[StevieP]

x86 is an ISA, not a microarchitecture!
Anyone with knowledge of processors should know that!

Jaguar is a new version of bobcat! Which is based on 2003's k8! (Obviously with new simd and revisions in other areas) which was the direct successor to 1999's k7!

 

[Stripper13]

2d mario wasnt the showcase title they needed think its clear now its a title that sells when the system is selling, therevhave been some 3rd party almost sucesses, sonic racing was the best selling version and epic mickey 2 outsold all but the wii version, i think its obvious the star wars games will sell decent on wii u and hopefully they could be the push it takes to get ea to port frostbite

Don't do that to yourself.

If it hasn't happened already - it's highly unlikely any sort of success would make Dice put FB3 on the Wii U.

 

[LiquidSolid]

The thing is this...if other developers couldn't get their engines working, then I'd be more inclined to believe what this guy is saying. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. So ONLY these guys can't get their engine working? On better hardware? It's just unbelievable.

Considering the situation with EA and Nintendo at the moment, we know there's something going on there. Of course, none of us know what that is, but I'm more inclined to believe that this is the main reason why there's no Frostbite 2 or 3.

This is just my opinion of what he said and I'd say he should back what he's saying up with some more details because what he says by itself doesn't make much sense to me. I guess if someone is going to believe that the Wii U is weaker than the 360, then I could see why people would take what he said as gospel. Also, devs are sometimes not so honest about things from time to time. They should be questioned, especially when others are doing or saying different things.

Only these guys? Not Epic, id, Valve, etc. as well?

But what does that matter anyway? News flash: These engines aren't directly comparable, they're two different programs that may rely on completely different resources. One may run fine on one system and run like shit on another, while the other engine may be the complete opposite. It's not as simple as "if one works, they'll all work."

And there's absolutely no denying the Wii U is weaker than the 360 in at least some areas, like memory bandwidth.

In reality, blaming DICE or EA is stupid, as it's not their job to support every system under the sun. If you're going to blame anyone, blame Nintendo, because it IS their job to get third parties to support their system.

 

[1st Course]

They didn't bother with the Wii U because Nintendo fans don't care about 3rd party games, it's as simple as that.

 

[TheD]

Jaguar is a new version of bobcat! Which is based on 2003's k8! (Obviously with new simd and revisions in other areas) which was the direct successor to 1999's k7!

2003 is not 1978!
Intel and AMD CPUs under go very large changes between microarchitectures! The WiiU CPU on the other hand seems just to be a 750CL with added multicore support and more L2 Cache (it looks like they did not even add VMX SIMD support!).

 

[Gori]

slower cpu in terms of clockspeed but then so have the orbango twins, as for the memory bandwidth its a lot more complicated than it looks on paper and no devs have said there was a problem in fact several have praised the memory

Now you're just silly.

Worse CPU in terms of total power, while PS4/720 have better CPU in terms of total power.

It was really stupid and cheap of Nintendo to not make sure that their new machine at least matched last generation. Some engines are very CPU limited, like Frostbite, and making sure they run on Wii U is probably not an easy task, EA partnerships or not.