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Frostbite Technical Director on why Frostbite never came to Wii U

diffusionx

Gold Member
. So, if a company like EA was working on a lot Wii U games up until it was clear that the console itself isn't selling very well, why the hell did we never hear or see anything about them? I think that they put many projects on ice after whatever happened between them and Nintendo way before the launch. The had very little interest in investing into Wii U since quite a while now and right now I think they would appreciate a Nintendo which is going out of the business.

Tons of games get cancelled without the public ever knowing about them.

And I highly highly doubt that EA wants Nintendo to go out of business. I am sure EA would very much appreciate the opportunity to sell their games to more people... but Nintendo has to also deliver a system that EA would want to work with too. It's a two-way street, something Nintendo has never really grasped.
 

Argyle

Member
You make it sound rather single-sided. GPU scaling can be every bit as difficult and then some, considering we are talking generational differences here. It suffices that a given RT format taken for granted on one platform was missing on another, and the implications can go quite deep.

Isn't the WiiU GPU a newer generation than the PS3/360? Do you believe that there are rendertarget formats (or anything else that fundamental, really) that are supported on PS3/360 that are not going to be supported on WiiU? (I would be shocked if so!) I was trying to explain why I think there will be PS3/360 versions of Battlefield 4, but no WiiU version, so I'm not sure what your point is...


A bit of trivia re FB: back in the day DICE were extremely proud they had created a workload-parallelism engine where the (non-gpu) performance of the engine would scale close-to-linear with the number of cores, thanks to sophisticated work-packet scheduling mechanism capable of utilizing all available cores. In this regard, it would not have surprised me one bit if they talked of bad results when downporting a PC _title_ developed for 8 cores - making full use of 8 contemporary desktop-class x86_64 cores, taking that down to 3 embedded cores could be quite a challenge. But no, what we have here is the statement that their current-gen _engine_ which supposedly scales well with cores (which means it goes linearly up _and_ down) did not perform well on the WiiU. Cue in forum analyses concluding it must be Expresso's fault.


Second bit of FB trivia: one of FB's big advantages made use of in DICE's ps3 games was that they could use an SPE or two to perform coarse geometry occlusion culling on the SPEs and thus reduce the workload from the trisetup-inadequate RSX. Now, imagine a third choice: that on the WiiU DICE would not have to use any cores for such tasks because the GPU can do those things just fine on its own?

Well, surely you understand that there has to be a minimum spec no matter how scalable your engine. Just because Frostbite will use all the cores it has available to it doesn't mean that a particular game implemented on it will run well on one core, or, for that matter, three slow cores.

As to your second point - you will notice that I used the 360 as a baseline for CPU, not the PS3. If this means that they had trouble getting even 360-level CPU performance out of it, that is not good news.

I doubt we'll ever get any clarification from DICE, but it would be nice to know whether or not they were dealing with the machine before or after the late in cycle spec bump and tool set maturation.

Do you really think that EA would not have current devkits/information from Nintendo?
 

Schnozberry

Member
Do you really think that EA would not have current devkits/information from Nintendo?

That's not what I said. We just have no idea when DICE did their prototyping. Nintendo gave the Wii U a spec bump late in 2012, and released much more mature development tools post Wii U launch. It's entirely possible DICE gave up on it prior to those things happening.
 
Many tests and project hold/cancellations happened long before launch.

I meant the sales specifically when I said a few months after launch, but i'd agree that early market research and learning about the hardware pre-launch did also account for their decision to drop support. IIRC, it was a DICE dev who was one of the first to break news of Wii U being underpowered:


dicewiiuf1qdg.png


So this news really isn't that surprising to me. There have been inklings that this was was coming for some time. And even if EA were still on board for the time being, with the coming next-gen gap in performance and focus shift, the Wii U was only going to get left behind sooner or later.
 
so, if nintendo is doomed.. ok..

let's play some games or something.. if nintendo is doomed, we don't have to worry our heads over such things.. just play some games.. some fun games.. games you like!
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Isn't the WiiU GPU a newer generation than the PS3/360? Do you believe that there are rendertarget formats (or anything else that fundamental, really) that are supported on PS3/360 that are not going to be supported on WiiU? (I would be shocked if so!) I was trying to explain why there will be PS3/360 versions of Battlefield 4, but no WiiU version, so I'm not sure what your point is...
My point is that games like BF are not made with consoles as lead platforms. And yet they find their way there. And when it comes to GPU down-scaling, it's not usually a matter of decreasing the particles count. But you're right to note that in this regard UGPU will only be at an advantage there.

Well, surely you understand that there has to be a minimum spec no matter how scalable your engine. Just because Frostbite will use all the cores it has available to it doesn't mean that a particular game implemented on it will run well on one core, or, for that matter, three slow cores.
I think I made it particularly clear what I was referring to - the prevalent-for-this-thread (perhaps rightfully so) interpretation of what appears to be DICE's official opinion of why their engine is not on the WiiU.

As to your second point - you will notice that I used the 360 as a baseline for CPU, not the PS3. If this means that they had trouble getting even 360-level CPU performance out of it, that is not good news.
Indeed. If DICE rely so much on CPU SIMD performance so that they could not scale their code from Xenon to Expresso then they might find themselves at a competitive disadvantage across all 3 consoles very soon this gen..
 

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
so, if nintendo is doomed.. ok..

let's play some games or something.. if nintendo is doomed, we don't have to worry our heads over such things.. just play some games.. some fun games.. games you like!
You miss something big. People who call them doomed love Nintendo.
 

Erasus

Member
I meant the sales specifically when I said a few months after launch, but i'd agree that early market research and learning about the hardware pre-launch did also account for their decision to drop support. IIRC, it was a DICE dev who was one of the first to break news of Wii U being underpowered:


dicewiiuf1qdg.png


So this news really isn't that surprising to me. There have been inklings that this was was coming for some time. And even if EA were still on board for the time being, with the coming next-gen gap in performance and focus shift, the Wii U was only going to get left behind sooner or later.

Remember when the Metro 2033 lead tech guy (who knows his shit) said the Wii U has a "horrible, slow CPU?"

Yeah, reality is crashing down.
 

JayTapp

Member
Not really. However Wii U tech nerds might know more about the modern Wii U architecture than DICE. Who knows what version of the kit they had. It's gone through tonnes of improvements.

Anyway, I don't believe for a second Wii U couldn't run it in some form and hence the games come to the system. The last tweet was spot on.

This has to be the most hilarious post I've ever read on GAF. The sad part is i'm sure you are serious when making this ridiculous claim.

/neogaf.gif
 

Argyle

Member
My point is that games like BF are not made with consoles as lead platforms. And yet they find their way there. And when it comes to GPU down-scaling, it's not usually a matter of decreasing the particles count. But you're right to note that in this regard UGPU will only be at an advantage there.

So basically we are not discussing the same thing at all, as your point has nothing to do with what I said? (which is trying to answer "why is there no WiiU version even when the effort has already been made to make a scaled down version for 360/PS3") :)

I think I made it particularly clear what I was referring to - the prevalent-for-this-thread (perhaps rightfully so) interpretation of what appears to be DICE's official opinion of why their engine is not on the WiiU.

Indeed. If DICE rely so much on CPU SIMD performance so that they could not scale their code from Xenon to Expresso then they might find themselves at a competitive disadvantage across all 3 consoles very soon this gen..

IMHO their engine is not on WiiU because there is no business case for it - you either have to gimp the 360/PS3 versions to achieve parity, or you spend more money for a customized specially gimped version of the game for the WiiU. While it's also possible that the base functionality of the engine (for example, the supported rendering pipeline) is beyond what the WiiU is capable of, I honestly do not believe that.

Also, do you really believe the second point? I'm not even sure where to start with that. I don't think the problem begins with SIMD performance although this is certainly not something that helps the case for the WiiU.

Let's put it this way - the engine will distribute the work amongst all the CPU resources available to it. The first easy thing you can do to get your game from 360 to WiiU is to move all your audio processing from the CPU to the dedicated DSP. This is not insignificant, but what this implies to me is that even after doing so, the WiiU CPU still has trouble keeping up with the remaining general purpose workload on a production Frostbite 360 game, otherwise a quick port seems like a no brainer, as EA likes money (and if you want to spend some more money on it, go ahead and spend the development effort on cool tablet oriented stuff instead of twisting yourself into pretzels trying to figure out how to use the extra GPU cycles to compensate for the CPU!)

Honestly I might buy into the EA sour grapes business theory if it weren't for the fact that several other developers have gone on record about CPU performance on the WiiU (off the top of my head, the Tekken and Dynasty Warriors guys...oh yeah, and Metro 2033, thanks for reminding me Dictator93!).
 

Castef

Banned
Even if DICE could have optimized further and gotten Frostbite running acceptably on Wii U, would it be worth all the effort? I don't think so.

Exactly, that's the main point. No one said that FB3 could not run on Wii U.

At the same time, no one said it would be worth having it run on Wii U. :)
 

SMT

this show is not Breaking Bad why is it not Breaking Bad? it should be Breaking Bad dammit Breaking Bad
He's trying hard not to break the news of the Pentium III overclocked on twitter.
Run Frostbite on your PIII, even your P4. See what happens.

It seems to me that fans are trying to bully EA into making it happen, and then when they are told the truth, they get salty.
 

enigmaxtreme316

Neo Member
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.
 
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.

I don't understand the narrative some suggest wherein EA comes across as the mafia running a protection racket, and it would have worked if Nintendo hasn't stood up to them. I personally believe that some deal was in ace that went bad, but I'm not sure why one would automatically assume that what went wrong was some sort if strong arming on the part of EA.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
So basically we are not discussing the same thing at all, as your point has nothing to do with what I said? (which is trying to answer "why is there no WiiU version even when the effort has already been made to make a scaled down version for 360/PS3") :)
I interpreted your point as 'CPU down-scaling is much more difficult than GPU down-scaling'. Which would be one-sided, at best, and incorrect, if we really try to delve into it. But since apparently I misinterpreted you and you didn't say that, I apologize.

IMHO their engine is not on WiiU because there is no business case for it - you either have to gimp the 360/PS3 versions to achieve parity, or you spend more money for a customized specially gimped version of the game for the WiiU. While it's also possible that the base functionality of the engine (for example, the supported rendering pipeline) is beyond what the WiiU is capable of, I honestly do not believe that.
Well, turns out we don't have much of a basis for disagreement then - I too don't think the basic functionality of the engine is beyond what WiiU offers, but my view on FB is somewhat remote and rusty (my view of it comes from old tech papers). Maybe they introduced a fundamental feature which requires not less than 3 PPE cores, lest everything fall into shambles.

Also, do you really believe the second point? I'm not even sure where to start with that. I don't think the problem begins with SIMD performance although this is certainly not something that helps the case for the WiiU.
Well, what do you believe Xenon has over Expresso? (a sincere question)

Let's put it this way - the engine will distribute the work amongst all the CPU resources available to it. The first easy thing you can do to get your game from 360 to WiiU is to move all your audio processing from the CPU to the dedicated DSP. This is not insignificant, but what this implies to me is that even after doing so, the WiiU CPU still has trouble keeping up with the remaining general purpose workload on a production Frostbite 360 game, otherwise a quick port seems like a no brainer, as EA likes money (and if you want to spend some more money on it, go ahead and spend the development effort on cool tablet oriented stuff instead of twisting yourself into pretzels trying to figure out how to use the extra GPU cycles to compensate for the CPU!)
You are speaking of a company who spent the resources to port their flagship racer to the WiiU (Criterion FTW) where it runs best among all consoles, but still refuses to add the DLC from the other consoles. Are we really sure they like money? I, for one, am not.

Honestly I might buy into the EA sour grapes business theory if it weren't for the fact that several other developers have gone on record about CPU performance on the WiiU (off the top of my head, the Tekken and Dynasty Warriors guys...oh yeah, and Metro 2033, thanks for reminding me Dictator93!).
Which means (some) devs have an established narrative (which I disagree about in the Tekken case) when it comes to picking excuses why this or that wouldn't make it to the WiiU. Have you read Criterion's account on the matter? Even better, have you seen their effort on the WiiU?
 
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.
Lmao. Do people really believe this nonsense and drivel they spout?
 

Erasus

Member
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.

This whole post is. "Standing up to" other companies. :lol
 
Why are people still discussing this?

The simple answer is that the effort it would take + the install base = no profit.

I'd say that's the end of it.

I agree with you. But on the flip side its like how can the install base become large if such a versatile engine is not on the Wii U? Yeah, at the end of the day though it probably comes down to the cost of porting it over and versus the tech itself and the profit they could get from the port.
 

Schnozberry

Member
I agree with you. But on the flip side its like how can the install base become large if such a versatile engine is not on the Wii U? Yeah, at the end of the day though it probably comes down to the cost of porting it over and versus the tech itself and the profit they could get from the port.

I think EA are just betting hard on the next Sony and MS systems. It's up to Sony and Microsoft to prove the market for $500 consoles in 2013, just like Nintendo has to prove the market for Wii U. EA can change their mind and put the effort into it if sales for Wii U pick up.
 

StevieP

Banned
I think EA are just betting hard on the next Sony and MS systems. It's up to Sony and Microsoft to prove the market for $500 consoles in 2013, just like Nintendo has to prove the market for Wii U. EA can change their mind and put the effort into it if sales for Wii U pick up.

Yes, and yes. But the issue with that is that you're left flat-footed. Games generally take at least 2 years to develop.

The Wii had an attach rate of 9.0 - same or better than the PS3 and comparable to the 360 within a game or so. And the so called "casual users" that everyone derided all generation certainly didn't buy 9 games if they were using it a "Wii Sports/Just Dance" box, right? Someone was buying games, and they weren't all Nintendo's according to their FY release PDFs.

The Wii U will likely never even come close to approaching the Wii in any sense of the word, but once third parties have hedged their bets it's very difficult to reverse that internally with a lead time as long as 2 years or more. And by the time those 2 years go by, well... It's too late.

The Wii U's third party support may improve slightly. Maybe even more than slightly if the thing finally starts selling more than its current garbage levels. But because so many have hedged their bets it will never be "good". Nintendo's pretty much on its own this generation, barring some already-expected day-and-date support from some publishers, partnerships, exclusives (more on that at E3) and late token ports.

And a lot of it is NOT hardware-based. A lot of it also isn't sales-based (because the decisions were made long before launch). This isn't some conspiracy, even if there is some truth to those rumours about EA's relationship going sour for one reason or another with Nintendo. This is the bean counters we're talking about.
 

wsippel

Banned
Honestly I might buy into the EA sour grapes business theory if it weren't for the fact that several other developers have gone on record about CPU performance on the WiiU (off the top of my head, the Tekken and Dynasty Warriors guys...oh yeah, and Metro 2033, thanks for reminding me Dictator93!).
The main "problem" with the CPU, as far as I can tell, is the toolchain - especially if DICE did their tests several months ago (which is probably the case). At least until some time in the second half of 2012, the IDE and toolchain was an outdated version of GHS Multi. There are a couple of problems with that: First of all, pretty much nobody in the games industry has any experience whatsoever using that particular IDE, compiler and profiler. An even bigger problem might have been that developers have (or had) to do most advanced stuff manually I believe. That old version didn't support autovectorization for paired singles as far as I know, in which case devs had to use assembly to get decent floating point performance. The multicore implementation doesn't appear to be standard either, so who knows how much developers had to do by hand to get decent multithreading performance out of this thing? Criterion confirmed in an interview that the pre-launch tools and SDK were pretty much terrible.
 
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.

UQxPtrW.gif
 

Argyle

Member
I interpreted your point as 'CPU down-scaling is much more difficult than GPU down-scaling'. Which would be one-sided, at best, and incorrect, if we really try to delve into it. But since apparently I misinterpreted you and you didn't say that, I apologize.

Haha, well I did say that, but that was tangential to my main point. I will own it, however. How am I incorrect?

IMHO if you think about the things you can scale in a game, they pretty much come in two classes: things that affect the game design directly (number of enemies is an obvious one) and things that do not (higher resolution textures, more particles, better shaders, anti-aliasing, etc.)

There are certainly GPU related things that can affect game design - for example, rendering could be the bottleneck if you are trying to figure out how much stuff you can pack into your open world game and still maintain a playable framerate. But I would argue that if you look at where the bottleneck lies for things that affect the game design directly, most of those fall into the CPU side of the equation, and thus, in general, it is easier to scale the graphics workload to have a similar game experience than to scale the processor workload.

I mean, as it is, the player counts have been scaled down in Battlefield multiplayer on console and I think I would argue that the experience on console is not the same as PC, despite the efforts that DICE have made to balance the game for console player counts. If you scaled them down further - say you could only have 8 or 12 players on WiiU. Is it still the same game as the 360/PS3 version? You'd have to change the maps yet again to get a similar player density, just to start, and that's what I talk about when I say they would have to put in extra effort.

Let's put it another way - why is it we see so many graphical scalability options on PC, where you have a wide range of hardware, but you pretty much never see an "AI: dumb-------smart" (or "num enemies: few------many") slider to get it to run on a min spec PC? (I mean, sure, maybe that is what the difficulty setting is, but I don't know if I've ever seen a recommendation to play a game on easy mode to get it to run on your 10 year old PC :)

Well, what do you believe Xenon has over Expresso? (a sincere question)

I think I made it clear in my last post - that overall, the Xenon has more computational power than the Espresso. The Espresso may be more efficient per watt or per clock, but 3.2GHz of brute force seems to carry the day from what people seem to say.

If your game is not CPU bound on 360 then the WiiU is probably a fantastic platform as you can take advantage of the improved GPU and the extra memory. If you are CPU bound, then you have some difficult decisions to make in order to make your game performant.

You are speaking of a company who spent the resources to port their flagship racer to the WiiU (Criterion FTW) where it runs best among all consoles, but still refuses to add the DLC from the other consoles. Are we really sure they like money? I, for one, am not.

Even in this case, where the DLC is basically finished, there are still certification and QA costs involved. It's possible that the game's sales on WiiU do not justify even this minimal cost to bring the DLC over. (I have no idea how many copies of NFS were sold on the WiiU. Maybe if they sold millions of copies, then they really are holding it back out of spite!)

Which means (some) devs have an established narrative (which I disagree about in the Tekken case) when it comes to picking excuses why this or that wouldn't make it to the WiiU. Have you read Criterion's account on the matter? Even better, have you seen their effort on the WiiU?

NFS is the definition of a game that does not seem to be CPU bound - it was ported mostly intact to the PlayStation Vita, which is souped up smartphone hardware. I don't know if I would use that as an example to illustrate why there are no problems with the performance of the WiiU CPU.
 

StevieP

Banned
Just for everyone's reference, here is what Criterion said (even referencing the fact that the toolchain was shit at/before launch but obviously improved afterward in the article):

Criterion said:
Questions about the theoretical bottlenecks of the Wii U hardware - the RAM set-up, the bandwidth - are left unanswered. Partly because we're straying into NDA territory and partly because we get the distinct impression that, for Criterion at least, it wasn't an issue.
"Tools and software were the biggest challenges by a long way... the fallout of that has always been the biggest challenge here," Idries reaffirms. "[Wii U] is a good piece of hardware, it punches above its weight. For the power consumption it delivers in terms of raw wattage it's pretty incredible. Getting to that though, actually being able to use the tools from Nintendo to leverage that, was easily the hardest part."
But hang on a second. This does somewhat dispute the established narrative suggested by more than one developer of a console using out-dated CPU technology derived from the Wii, which in turn was an overclocked, tweaked version of the GameCube. Ten minutes into our chat and Idries hasn't once mentioned the infamous lack of Wii U CPU horsepower. Wasn't this an issue for developing Most Wanted on the new Nintendo console? He pauses for a short moment while framing his answer.
"When they first looked at the specs on paper a lot of developers said, 'Well, you know this is a bit lightweight' and they walked away. I think a lot of people have been premature about it in a lot of ways because while it is a lower clock-speed, it punches above its weight in a lot of other areas," he explains.
"So, I think you've got one group of people who walked away, you've got some other people who just dived in and tried and thought, 'Ah... it's not kind of there,' but not many people have done what we've done, which is to sit down and look at where it's weaker and why, but also see where it's stronger and leverage that. It's a different kind of chip and it's not fair to look at its clock-speed and other consoles' clock-speed and compare them as numbers that are relevant. It's not a relevant comparison to make when you have processors that are so divergent. It's apples and oranges."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes
 

Gestault

Member
NFS is the definition of a game that does not seem to be CPU bound - it was ported mostly intact to the PlayStation Vita, which is souped up smartphone hardware. I don't know if I would use that as an example to illustrate why there are no problems with the performance of the WiiU CPU.

I'm glad to see someone else bring this up. Not that I'm saying anything negative about the quality of the game itself, but the one example of an unquestionably superior port for the Wii U is a game which shined just as brightly on an (admittedly powerful) handheld system.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go look at that cat gif for a while.
 

wsippel

Banned
I think I made it clear in my last post - that overall, the Xenon has more computational power than the Espresso. The Espresso may be more efficient per watt or per clock, but 3.2GHz of brute force seems to carry the day from what people seem to say.
Xenon had terrible, terrible IPC performance, rendering the impressive clockspeed pretty much meaningless in a lot of cases. Clock-for-clock, it couldn't hold a candle to Broadway, and Espresso with it's impressive cache and possible further refinements should run circles around it in the IPC department - depending on the workload of course.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Yes, and yes. But the issue with that is that you're left flat-footed. Games generally take at least 2 years to develop.

The Wii had an attach rate of 9.0 - same or better than the PS3 and comparable to the 360 within a game or so. And the so called "casual users" that everyone derided all generation certainly didn't buy 9 games if they were using it a "Wii Sports/Just Dance" box, right? Someone was buying games, and they weren't all Nintendo's according to their FY release PDFs.

The Wii U will likely never even come close to approaching the Wii in any sense of the word, but once third parties have hedged their bets it's very difficult to reverse that internally with a lead time as long as 2 years or more. And by the time those 2 years go by, well... It's too late.

The Wii U's third party support may improve slightly. Maybe even more than slightly if the thing finally starts selling more than its current garbage levels. But because so many have hedged their bets it will never be "good". Nintendo's pretty much on its own this generation, barring some already-expected day-and-date support from some publishers, partnerships, exclusives (more on that at E3) and late token ports.

And a lot of it is NOT hardware-based. A lot of it also isn't sales-based (because the decisions were made long before launch). This isn't some conspiracy, even if there is some truth to those rumours about EA's relationship going sour for one reason or another with Nintendo. This is the bean counters we're talking about.

I don't think it's a conspiracy either. I also think Nintendo will partner with people financially and grab some desirable 3rd party exclusives. The Wii U isn't quite cooked yet. If sales don't pick up for this holiday, then even the most ardent fans will have to relent and admit the thing is a flop. It's hard for me to do that at this point merely because we haven't seen a game really leverage the concept. If 3D Mario comes along and really makes good use of the gamepad, and still flops, then it'll be time for a fire sale. If it moves the numbers up a few respectable notches, then there is hope.

I do find it funny that no one even wants to consider the possibility that the market truly has shifted and that dedicated consoles may not ever be what they once were. If Sony and Microsoft don't move an ass load of consoles this coming Winter, the spin from gaming PR departments will be interesting to watch.
 
Indeed. If DICE rely so much on CPU SIMD performance so that they could not scale their code from Xenon to Expresso then they might find themselves at a competitive disadvantage across all 3 consoles very soon this gen..

Would that actually lead to a bizarre situation in which Frostbite 4 could end up scaling down better to the Wii U than Frostbite 3?
 

SmokyDave

Member
I meant the sales specifically when I said a few months after launch, but i'd agree that early market research and learning about the hardware pre-launch did also account for their decision to drop support. IIRC, it was a DICE dev who was one of the first to break news of Wii U being underpowered:


dicewiiuf1qdg.png


So this news really isn't that surprising to me. There have been inklings that this was was coming for some time. And even if EA were still on board for the time being, with the coming next-gen gap in performance and focus shift, the Wii U was only going to get left behind sooner or later.
Player count?

I assume that means 'online' player count?

As in 'cut down in Most Wanted Wii-U' player count?
 
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.

Not really. However Wii U tech nerds might know more about the modern Wii U architecture than DICE. Who knows what version of the kit they had. It's gone through tonnes of improvements.

Anyway, I don't believe for a second Wii U couldn't run it in some form and hence the games come to the system. The last tweet was spot on.

I can't even tell if these posts are meant to be facetious. That's how bad it's become.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
He's trying hard not to break the news of the Pentium III overclocked on twitter.
Run Frostbite on your PIII, even your P4. See what happens.

It seems to me that fans are trying to bully EA into making it happen, and then when they are told the truth, they get salty.

whatareyoutalkingaboutwhoareyoutalkingto.gif
 
EA's just that big bully on the playground, who steals your lunch and forces you to pay him to give it back and then suddenly, Nintendo comes around and he's even bigger then EA and suddenly EA's crying to its mummy and all like "You can forget about Battlefield 4".

As much as I love Iwata, I wish Yamauchi was still in charge, he would just stare at Peter Moore's soul. If it's true that EA wanted Origin to run the Wii U then they are seriously over estimating there position in the industry, especially when compared to Nintendo. The Big N, is just that, BIG and they've stood up to bigger companies then EAS. Ignoring the whole third party situation, I mean if Origin was running the Wii U. What would that mean for other third parties when it came to playing online on the Wii U? Would they have to go through Origin, yeahhhh if that was the case Activision would obvious this like the plague.

This whole situation with EA is just childish.

Ah yes, Yamauchi, the man who despite his achievements early on, went on to helm the N64 and GC failures. He nearly buried Nintendo in the eyes of gamers and practically killed third party relations over those two gens, and in the same way that Obama inherited Bush's shit, his decisions pretty much forced Iwata's Nintendo to take on today's radical, under-powered, "gameplay driven" approach to stay relevant. It's a minor miracle that they managed to stay profitable all these years, as the only one I could compare Yamauchi with is Krazy Ken circa the early money bleeding PS3 days. I guess visionaries have a habit of becoming completely batshit insane. Or senile.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
NFS is the definition of a game that does not seem to be CPU bound - it was ported mostly intact to the PlayStation Vita, which is souped up smartphone hardware. I don't know if I would use that as an example to illustrate why there are no problems with the performance of the WiiU CPU.
NFS Vita has a significant lower car count during SP, though.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Oh, you must be MutedPenguin, hello.

whatareyoutalkingaboutwhoareyoutalkingto.gif

A quick and easy way to identify a poster is to look at the name/avatar found to the left of their post. I'm just going to assume that your first post was some bizarre attempt at sarcasm and that you don't actually believe that the Wii-U has a Pentium in it.
 
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