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[Delusibeta]

the point is still that he could have reported on the fraud while leaving her personal details entirely out of it. the story would have lost nothing and the reaction would be exactly the same minus some transphobic bigotry.

Nah, the transphobic bigotry had started during the IGG. If anything, I suspect not outing her would have increased the bigotry as people start looking for reasons and finding the "transsexual funding SRS" theory.

 

[JABEE]

she attempted fraud, that's pretty straightforward and i'm in no way ignoring it, just arguing against most of the thread that her personal details are irrelevant

i think she shouldn't have gotten the money under false pretenses and guess what? she didn't.

Exposing her fraud is a means of preventing her from committing fraud in the future. Just because she didn't get away with it doesn't make her actions any less reprehensible.

 

[RobotRocker]

The matter is complicated but people should note that journalism actually has rules and ethics. Twittering out like this guy did was an incredibly unprofessional way of handling it.

Not just unprofessional, extraordinarily dangerous. Copycat suicides are a very real and tragic knock on effect through reporting of suicide in the media, especially reporting methods of suicide, even if it was a failed attempt and extremely soon after the attempt as it can influence others who are on the edge.

Blowing the horn post suicide attempt is also completely unethical and while understandably it went viral in this day and age. You simply cannot go and dump the truth on twitter during someone's attempt and recovery. It's extremely dangerous to the person recovering and dangerous to the community at large. And it's understandable why Destructoid would suspend someone, even if it was the truth, as they did it in such a dangerous manner and I fully believe that's why he was suspended.

The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention has their guidelines for media reporting here if anyone is interested.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

she attempted fraud, that's pretty straightforward and i'm in no way ignoring it, just arguing against most of the thread that her personal details are irrelevant

i think she shouldn't have gotten the money under false pretenses and guess what? she didn't.

Guess what, is still a crime what she attempted to do. For better or worse, people will judge her for it, as you are doing with the journalist in question. So stop the high horse and see why people has a issue with her that, like you said, doesn't have to do with her orientation.

Is helping no one

 

[RPG Wizard]

That would have just raised more questions. People don't hear "You are a victim of fraud." and just let it go. People would want to know the whole story. That's why when you get your credit card stolen the first thing they tell you is what the people bought with your money.

Hence the "respecting privacy" aspect of that comment. Pinsof was too close to the story, and could have stated as such. Indiegogo had already cancelled the funding before Pinsof made his comments. While people would be curious, most would accept that the story would come out when Sagal was in a better state.

 

[Azull]

i understand

which is why i hope a universal healthcare system never comes to america

You're really missing out, why do you think us Canadians live for so long .

and I would like to know alison brie's cell number

we don't always get what we want, and nobody had a right to chloe's personal information

Wait what? How is that even semi-related?

 

[Wickerbasket]

and I would like to know alison brie's cell number

we don't always get what we want, and nobody had a right to chloe's personal information

Maybe if she didn't want her personal information spread about she shouldn't have been scamming people out of money.

She has zero sympathy from me. People have a right to know where their money was going and what it was going to be used for.

 

[Marcel]

Do those that believe that Alistair should have left details out of the story think that should apply to everyone and every story?

Why even bother asking childish loaded questions?

 

[aeolist]

Exposing her fraud is a means of preventing her from committing fraud in the future. Just because she didn't get away with it doesn't make her actions any less reprehensible.

Guess what, is still a crime what she attempted to do. For better or worse, people will judge her for it, as you are doing with the journalist in question. So stop the high horse and see why people has a issue with her that, like you said, doesn't have to do with her orientation.

Is helping no one

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

 

[Delusibeta]

link? also how is that any better now that we know why she did it? irrational people will be irrational, now they could just say igg kept her from getting the SRS she needed

Example.

 

[Kinyou]

link? also how is that any better now that we know why she did it? irrational people will be irrational, now they could just say igg kept her from getting the SRS she needed

He says it in the interview from the OP (which also includes this picture)

He also says that there were death threats.



And no, I don't think that those people will continue to boycott or threaten Indiegogo

 

[KojiKnight]

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

Sorry, this one seemed to have gotten buried so I'll repost it

his employment isn't something i'm terribly concerned with. i do think if he's fired it might make people think twice before doing something like this, which would be a good thing.

the point is still that he could have reported on the fraud while leaving her personal details entirely out of it. the story would have lost nothing and the reaction would be exactly the same minus some transphobic bigotry.

I respect that you think that... I truly do. I just don't agree with the concept of intentionally covering up details. You say this only added transphobic bigotry but then what about your reaction? What about the people who've come to rally and support her now?

This isn't a black and white manner, there is no "good" and "bad" in this story, at least not by itself.

 

[RPG Wizard]

Do those that believe that Alistair should have left details out of the story think that should apply to everyone and every story?

Should the news media have never reported on Ted Haggard soliciting gay sex while actively campaigning against gay rights?

Should the news media have merely stated that Bill Clinton was under investigation for possibly lying about inappropriate behaviour and not that he received oral sex from an intern?

I mean, those are just private details that are immaterial to the actual matter at hand, right?

Were any of these stories released when the individual involved was in the hospital from having attempted suicide?

It's more complicated than just that private details were revealed, it was the nature in which they were revealed and the circumstances of the individual in question.

 

[KojiKnight]

Were any of these individuals in the hospital from having attempted suicide when the stories broke?

It's more complicated than just that private details were revealed, it was the nature in which they were revealed and the circumstances of the individual in question.

Which is exactly why you can't simply draw a line in the sand.

 

[aeolist]

Sorry, this one seemed to have gotten buried so I'll repost it



I respect that you think that... I truly do. I just don't agree with the concept of intentionally covering up details. You say this only added transphobic bigotry but then what about your reaction? What about the people who've come to rally and support her now?

This isn't a black and white manner, there is no "good" and "bad" in this story, at least not by itself.

it's good that she's getting support but the problem is that none of this happened by her own choice. i sympathize with her problems and those of the trans community at large but that doesn't give me the right to know their personal details unless they want to share them

 

[Traumahound]

Were any of these individuals in the hospital from having attempted suicide when the stories broke?

It's more complicated than just that private details were revealed, it was the nature in which they were revealed and the circumstances of the individual in question.

They also hadn't tried to blackmail anyone into keeping quiet.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

I'm not defending him for outing her. Just pointing out that this is more complicated than "lol he is an asshole and she deserves the money anyway".

 

[StevePharma]

After thinking this over I was wondering how Chloe was going to play this if everything went through as 'planned'.

Would she keep the facade and show pics of metal in a couple of blog posts?

Or would she out herself?

People were going to find out eventually if they would just follow the money. Wouldn't the situation and backlash be pretty much the same then, only delayed?

I find her despicable for trying to scam people who are willing to do good on other people, on the other hand it seems she needs some serious psychiatric guidance and I hope things will work out that way.

As for the Destructoid whistleblower, it's a lesson that whistleblowers will always get the short end of the stick.

 

[vikingvessel]

"I have independently confirmed that Sagal's fundraiser was based on false pretenses and untrue claims, which is the reason it was cancelled by IndieGoGo. Sagal is now receiving medical attention following her suicide attempt. Due to my personal involvement with the story I am not at liberty to disclose more than that."

Someone tell me the problem with writing this instead. I mean, other than "People won't be satisfied." They can be unsatisfied all they want, people who were unconnected to the story do not have a right to more personal information than that. If "satisfying reader's desire for prurient information" is your primary goal, you're not a journalist, you're a tabloid writer.

This sudden push to settle for any vague explanation makes much more sense after the fact due to the highly sensitive nature, though we have seen internet riots over character skins DLC shipping on disc. Declaring a $30k fund a scam with no clarification would have resulted in even more claims of insensitivity and bigotry in real time than we are hearing now.

In another capacity I agree with you. Just because you want to know means little as far as deserving to know. But you know the climate around the web tends to favor the deserve to and lashes out against the contrary and often triumphs.

 

[Marcel]

I just don't agree with the concept of intentionally covering up details.

If only anyone were suggesting a sinister, intentional cover-up as you're suggesting. faceless007 has been posting an example of what a professional would have done:

"I have independently confirmed that Sagal's fundraiser was based on false pretenses and untrue claims, which is the reason it was cancelled by IndieGoGo. Sagal is now receiving medical attention following her suicide attempt. Due to my personal involvement with the story I am not at liberty to disclose more than that."

 

[Sane_Man]

As a general rule, if it's Shitpost worthy it's probably also banworthy, although the whole "SRS = plastic surgery" would be a better bet for rule-breaking (also Shitpost worthy in itself). As you know, for Junior members (nearly) all bans are permabans.

I don't agree with the guy at all but stating he doesn't want universal healthcare is not ban worthy! Some of his other posts though, particularly the one referring to people with gender issues as "confused", might be. I always think it's better to try and educate people before calling for a ban though.

He's on unpaid leave, and the guy has zero chance of keeping his job. It sounds more to me like you're taking an eye for an eye on the guy for at worst making a bad judgement call and at best for reporting the truth of the matter as it should have been done.



To put it in more perspective... my wife is bi. When I was a teenager I had some gender confusion issues. I don't know exactly what she's gone through in life, no one can for 100% sure, but I'm not talking out of my ass or having no experience on the subject. I fully understand LBGT community and have many close friends in it... This issue was tied directly to the fraud. The facts were relevant to the story. No one gains ANYTHING from covering it up, and this person is much more likely now to get the help they really need. It also helps highlight these issues in society, issues that need to be faced either way.

Was this an ideal scenario for such a thing? No... but she's not the victim here. She committed fraud, she was trying to take advantage of GOOD PEOPLE who only wanted to HELP HER. She used their trust to gain access to their money because she wanted to get SRS. She was desparate, she needed and still needs a lot of help... but what she did was wrong, and her actions exposed her... Not Allistair. Not Reddit. Not Gaf. SHE defrauded people in an attempt to get SRS.

I still wish her the best, and I hope this attention all eventually leads to her getting MORE support, it's what she really needs.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue entirely. Well said.

 

[SousedLouse]

"I have independently confirmed that Sagal's fundraiser was based on false pretenses and untrue claims, which is the reason it was cancelled by IndieGoGo. Sagal is now receiving medical attention following her suicide attempt. Due to my personal involvement with the story I am not at liberty to disclose more than that."

Someone tell me the problem with writing this instead. I mean, other than "People won't be satisfied." They can be unsatisfied all they want, people who were unconnected to the story do not have a right to more personal information than that. If "satisfying reader's desire for prurient information" is your primary goal, you're not a journalist, you're a tabloid writer.

I had some similar thoughts on this part of the issue as well, although your post was more sensible than what I had in mind. It seems odd to me that in the one field of journalism on the internet where you can ignore giving away details on a story and leave your reputation relatively intact, Pinsof decided to talk about it on Twitter, of all places - a site where any attempt at using tact would be hamstrung by the character limit on tweets and the time between posts. And yet, instead of giving a short, non-committal statement, he tried to give out details, against direct orders not to (if what I've read of the story is correct). That was a terrible decision in itself, but I guess it's just a small part of the pile of mistakes he's made in this debacle.

 

[aeolist]

I'm not defending him. Just pointing out that this is more complicated than "lol he is an asshole and she deserves the money anyway".

no one is saying that. she absolutely should not have been allowed to keep any of the indiegogo campaign funds

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Not just unprofessional, extraordinarily dangerous. Copycat suicides are a very real and tragic knock on effect through reporting of suicide in the media, especially reporting methods of suicide, even if it was a failed attempt and extremely soon after the attempt as it can influence others who are on the edge.

Blowing the horn post suicide attempt is also completely unethical and while understandably it went viral in this day and age. You simply cannot go and dump the truth on twitter during someone's attempt and recovery. It's extremely dangerous to the person recovering and dangerous to the community at large. And it's understandable why Destructoid would suspend someone, even if it was the truth, as they did it in such a dangerous manner and I fully believe that's why he was suspended.

The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention has their guidelines for media reporting here if anyone is interested.

Thanks for that post.

 

[mikeGFG]

uh which part and how so? people are saying "oh surprise there's fraud in crowdfunding" etc, what exactly did the revelation of her gender identity add to the discussion?

context for her mentally instability. and that context can help bring awareness (and support) to a very important issue.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Hence the "respecting privacy" aspect of that comment. Pinsof was too close to the story, and could have stated as such. Indiegogo had already cancelled the funding before Pinsof made his comments. While people would be curious, most would accept that the story would come out when Sagal was in a better state.

I don't think that would make much of a difference. She's still suicidal and will continue to be. You'd essentially be waiting until she was mentally past all of her gender issues, which could very possibly be never. I don't think this situation would have been any less impactful/damaging two months from now then it was when it happened.

 

[RPG Wizard]

Which is exactly why you can't simply draw a line in the sand.

Sad that many seem to be doing just that.

Additionally, given the public outing and backlash, I'm more worried that she'll try to off herself again. Getting help is not a simple matter in the slightest.

Psychological illness isn't given much respect as a legitimate illness by society as a whole. It's part of what worries me about this whole affair. Pinsof and Sagal both acted in bad faith, but Sagal's the one I'm concerned about, as she's in the hospital and is now a target of public derision.

We'll see what happens to Pinsof, but I do once again feel that there was a better way for him to do what he did.

 

[JABEE]

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

It's a core part of the story. She was going to use the IndieGoGo funds to fund her other surgery. Her being transgendered and wanting the surgery gives a motive for why the scamming party did what they did. It relinquishes the blame from IndieGoGo and explains why the fundraiser was taken down.

It is common practice to reveal the motives of the individuals who commit fraud. In this instance, the motive outed her. I think the moment you commit fraud for a purpose that focuses on your gender identity you invite scrutiny from the press to dig into that motive. I understand respecting the identity and privacy of victims, but perpetrators of fraud do not deserve to have the story and motives for their frauds to be expunged from the records especially when blackmail is involved.

 

[kodt]

Yep, this is definitely a candidate for NeoGAFShitPosts or a permaban.

permaban because you don't agree with his/her political views?

 

[aeolist]

context for her mentally instability. and that context can help bring awareness (and support) to a very important issue.

but that doesn't justify the invasion of her privacy

we can't go around sacrificing trans people on the altar of some nebulous greater good against their will

 

[Jburton]

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

Her fraud is based on her need for money to complete her transistion .......... she committed the crime to fund her surgery ....... this is the core fact of the story and the crime.

This is why anything to do with her gender status has been bought up.

 

[KojiKnight]

it's good that she's getting support but the problem is that none of this happened by her own choice. i sympathize with her problems and those of the trans community at large but that doesn't give me the right to know their personal details unless they want to share them

Where we differ is that I feel it WAS her choice. She choose to involve her private matters in a public fraud attempt.

If she had tried to fraud the money to buy a new car, the issue would never have presented itself in discussion. No one would have made a mention of her sexual identity because it would have had absolutely no relevance.

The fact that the crime was committed to pay for her SRS is relevant, for better or worse.

That said, I think we've gone back and forth on this as far as we can. I do thank you for discussing with me rationally even if we don't agree... it's a shame people can't have these types of conversations more often on forums without it turning into flung insults.

 

[Xenon]

Sorry, this one seemed to have gotten buried so I'll repost it

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

This would make sense if she was trying to defraud someone with lets say a game she never planned make. Then bringing up her trans status would make little sense. But it was explicitly part of the fraud. There is no getting around that fact no matter how much you think her privacy needed to be protected.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Theres tinfoil hat stuff in this thread on how "outing" her has put her on some secret trans hating assassin hitlist that will endanger her life now for the rest of her days. I mean my word. I guess this is the kind of insane angry mob that was crashing against Destructoid like the relentless waves of the ocean, and Allistair had to pay the price. A real damn shame that the internet outrage machine gets to decide employment nowadays. Feels no different to the Muhammad cartoon situation at times.

And on how was "outing" her a key part of the story? Well in multiple aspects. One thats what the scam was for, the purpose, the entire crux. So rather than actually paint her as even more of a villain that she was just scamming money for what, a stomach band or a nose job, the real source of mania that pushed her to this was an important part of the story. Even further to that, the guy tried to track her down and get the help she needs before she did do something rash, but found it extremely difficult due to not knowing her real name that would be listed anywhere to get in contact with family/friends/etc.

This isn't some attack on the whole concept of trans where now white priveleged males are just going to start listing people off, its just a situation that had some rather ugly bits to it that ultimately people have to deal with being reality rather than just hush hushing and keeping this all totally secret just because.

 

[mikeGFG]

but that doesn't justify the invasion of her privacy

we can't go around sacrificing trans people on the altar of some nebulous greater good against their will

what the FUCK are you talking about, dude.

No one here is judging this person for her gender. I think anyone with a heart would want to see her get the help she needs.

 

[aeolist]

It's a core part of the story. She was going to use the IndieGoGo funds to fund her other surgery. Her being transgendered and wanting the surgery gives a motive for why the scamming party did what they did. It relinquishes the blame from IndieGoGo and explains why the fundraiser was taken down.

It is common practice to reveal the motives of the individuals who commit fraud. In this instance, the motive outed her. I think the moment you commit fraud for a purpose that focuses on your gender identity you invite scrutiny from the press to dig into that motive. I understand respecting the identity and privacy of victims, but perpetrators of fraud do not deserve to have the story and motives for their frauds to be expunged from the records especially when blackmail is involved.

they can (and did) say that fraud had occurred and the funds were not going to be used for the specified cause

that's enough justification to cancel the campaign. if people were going to blame IGG for anything after that, outing her does nothing to stop them

 

[kodt]

If she was planning on getting gender reassignment surgery, wouldn't everyone know she was trans anyway?

 

[dave is ok]

ATTICA! ATTICA! ATTICA!

 

[Mr.Monitor]

Ridiculous. In almost any other situation it wouldn't be okay to divulge information about a trans person like he did, but in this case the information was extremely relevant, and key to the rest of the story. He couldn't just go "oh she's scamming you, but I can't tell you why!" with a wink and a nudge. I'm a little disappointed that he's backing down like this.

 

[JABEE]

but that doesn't justify the invasion of her privacy

we can't go around sacrificing trans people on the altar of some nebulous greater good against their will

She is not a victim. She committed the fraudulent acts. The extra scrutiny she received was directly related to the motives for the fraud. There was no extra digging that was not related to the fraud.

 

[The Elite]

ATTICA! ATTICA! ATTICA!

I don't know why I didn't think of this while reading through the thread.

 

[Akira_83]

That's really selfish you know?

is it?

If i were to be saying it should be outlawed, wouldnt THAT be selfish? but not wanting to be part of funding something i dont agree with is selfish? im not calling for SRS to be illegal

 

[Bony Manifesto]

again, how does knowing that she's a transgendered fraud gain us anything over simply knowing she's a fraud?

I think it's a pretty huge mitigating factor for what she did. If it hadn't come to light what she actually wanted the money for, we'd all have assumed she was just a common fraudster and the narrative would be a whole lot less favourable to her.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

no one is saying that. she absolutely should not have been allowed to keep any of the indiegogo campaign funds

Yeah, sorry about that, I misread some of your posts.

Still, they are extremely apologist at points.

 

[Domstercool]

but that doesn't justify the invasion of her privacy

we can't go around sacrificing trans people on the altar of some nebulous greater good against their will

Would never have been a mention if Chloe was using it for illegal drugs or whatever. It's because of the what it was being used for, you can't really mention that without transgender coming into play.

I agree with that post that doesn't reveal that in the news, but then Chloe would have to back it up and be honest with the public within a good amount of time, because as time goes on, those public people are going to want to know where that money was going to end up.

I'd feel awful, if say, I had potentially donated to someone for help, but then it was for them to get illegal drugs. Campaign stopped or not, the fact I had offered money makes it disturbing :/

Just like how you want to know where your money goes to when you give it to the government.

 

[Marcel]

A real damn shame that the internet outrage machine gets to decide employment nowadays.

Actually, Allistair decided his own fate when he decided to poorly do his job AND participate in a volatile story that was already a few weeks old. The people that take issue with how he handled things didn't get him fired.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Almost every time someone defrauds the public of money they state what the money was really being used for but for some reason if it involves the LBGT community it's off limits? I think criminals of all type should be treated equally.

 

[Sophia]

is it?

If i were to be saying it should be outlawed, wouldnt THAT be selfish? but not wanting to be part of funding something i dont agree with is selfish? im not calling for SRS to be illegal

Yes, it's pretty selfish for not wanting to fund a proper medical system for people to get help. More so when paying taxes is one of your duties as a citizen. C'mon...

Actually, Allistair decided his own fate when he decided to poorly do his job by participating in a volatile story that was already a few weeks old. The people that take issue with how he handled things didn't get him fired.

Yeah let's not pretend that Alistair is innocent here or anything. He chose his actions poorly, and was suspended as a result.

 

[Mudkips]

Journalist reports facts, exposes fraud, gets shitcanned.
Journalism is dead.

Privacy goes out the window when you commit a crime and tell others the details of that crime.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

is it?

If i were to be saying it should be outlawed, wouldnt THAT be selfish? but not wanting to be part of funding something i dont agree with is selfish? im not calling for SRS to be illegal

Eh... thats not how democracy works...