Chloe absolutely had that right to privacy. But when she took her private matter and attempted to commit fraud for it, she revoked that right.
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Destructoid writer let go over including relevant information in a story?
- Thread starter Goon Boon
- Start date
Chloe absolutely had that right to privacy. But when she took her private matter and attempted to commit fraud for it, she revoked that right.
Delusibeta
Banned
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Moral Myopia?
The Elite
BOSS
These are the events as I see them. Curious to see what others have to add. If someone is committing fraud and you're in a situation to report it, you report it. If there are concerns about her safety as a transgendered person, she shouldn't have committed fraud in the first place. There was always a chance she would get caught and all of this would be outed. It's on her.
It's like you're forgetting the part where she blackmailed him. Once she made it glaringly obvious what was actually up, he spilled the story.
everything i know about reporting i learned from television
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Ugh I was hoping the original locked thread was the last of this discussion I'd see on neogaf. Feels like internet rubber necking at it's worst. Some seriously cringeworthy posts in this thread.
Exactly. If this happened at a newspaper or proper news organization, there wouldn't be all this "He's just a good man reporting the truth!" naive nonsense. He would be fired for breach of ethics and that would be that.
famousmortimer
Banned
Yep, this is definitely a candidate for NeoGAFShitPosts or a permaban.
Shitposts, sure. Permaban over opinion on something? That's a bit overreaching, no?
the story was fraud, not the fact that she's a trans woman
He's a junior member. They're under much stricter rules.
The Albatross
Member
Sorry, I wasn't arguing with a strawman -- I wasn't actually arguing anything. That dude I quoted asked if someone could explain privacy laws, and so I was.
For what it's worth, I'm indifferent to this whole conversation. But someone a page ago said that the person's sexual orientation is "protected by privacy laws." Which they aren't. Still probably a dick thing to share with somebody, but there aren't any laws against it. I was just explaining the law.
KojiKnight
Member
He's on unpaid leave, and the guy has zero chance of keeping his job. It sounds more to me like you're taking an eye for an eye on the guy for at worst making a bad judgement call and at best for reporting the truth of the matter as it should have been done.
To put it in more perspective... my wife is bi. When I was a teenager I had some gender confusion issues. I don't know exactly what she's gone through in life, no one can for 100% sure, but I'm not talking out of my ass or having no experience on the subject. I fully understand LBGT community and have many close friends in it... This issue was tied directly to the fraud. The facts were relevant to the story. No one gains ANYTHING from covering it up, and this person is much more likely now to get the help they really need. It also helps highlight these issues in society, issues that need to be faced either way.
Was this an ideal scenario for such a thing? No... but she's not the victim here. She committed fraud, she was trying to take advantage of GOOD PEOPLE who only wanted to HELP HER. She used their trust to gain access to their money because she wanted to get SRS. She was desparate, she needed and still needs a lot of help... but what she did was wrong, and her actions exposed her... Not Allistair. Not Reddit. Not Gaf. SHE defrauded people in an attempt to get SRS.
I still wish her the best, and I hope this attention all eventually leads to her getting MORE support, it's what she really needs.
ShironRedshift
Member
Putting the disgusting sentiment of this post aside, are you familiar with the concept of how insurance works in the first place? Just by paying for health insurance period, you're feeding into the pool of funds which cover things like this. The only thing that would change with a single-payer system is that it would increase the number of people pooling their money into the system and have all that money directed at a common, shared system instead of divided among a number of providers, resulting in lower costs for everyone. In this particular issue though, nothing changes either way--that's just how the concept of insurance works period.
I'm also not sure her lifestyle choice was super secret considering she had mentioned on the donation site that her own mother refused to contribute money because of her 'lifestyles choices' (i remember this being the words used by her mom). I guess her orientation was known to her family and I assume friends maybe. I know that being forcefully outed sucks horribly, but perhaps she was already 'out of the closet'.
The only way he'd be fired in terms of ethics is how he told the truth and the ignorance displayed in it. You shouldn't confuse journalistic ethics with being nice. Journalist's do an awful lot of dodgy shit.
Delusibeta
Banned
As a general rule, if it's Shitpost worthy it's probably also banworthy, although the whole "SRS = plastic surgery" would be a better bet for rule-breaking (also Shitpost worthy in itself). As you know, for Junior members (nearly) all bans are permabans.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You seem determinated to not see the morally questionable actions of Chloe. It doesn't excuse the Journo but is still pretty clear that there a was shady (even if "well intentioned") bussiness.
I'm still reading up on this whole story, but so far, it's very simple for me. The journalist had every right to mention what surgery this person was trying to get. The people who donated have a right to know what their hard-earned money is going towards. Chloe brought all of this upon herself when she attempted to publicly scam tens of thousands of dollars from sympathetic, good-natured people. I truly feel sorry for her when it comes to her depression and related suicide attempt. As someone who has gone through all that, I more than understand her plight. But scamming and blackmailing someone with your own death as a trump card is despicable.
However, the journalist should certainly be fired. He disobeyed a direct order from higher-ups, and he should be punished for that. You can't disobey the boss.
However, the journalist should certainly be fired. He disobeyed a direct order from higher-ups, and he should be punished for that. You can't disobey the boss.
My thoughts exactly. There is a long precedent of losing rights after committing crimes.
Really? Have you read any of the "news" lately about any story? Every single story gets picked apart. Jodi Arias, The Boston "suspects", you name it. Every single part of their entire lives is picked apart for their "crimes".
Could he have given a more "vague" story? Sure he could have. However people would likely question his authenticity. The more details you include the more accurate your story is. If she indeed was blackmailing him, then she has committed not one but two crimes.
I feel bad for everyone involved in this situation, however to say that including all the parts of the story would get him fired for "breaching ethics" is completely wrong.
As far as the "news" is concerned there are no "lines" not to cross, as long as it's not illegal.
SousedLouse
Member
to hell with you and your desire to explain things to other posters
it's way more important to get my lower-case snark in than to let even a single opportunity to flaunt my superior understanding of moral and journalistic ethics pass me by
Her being trans complicated matters, but 99% of the time where the money is going would be a large part of the story.
If you actually believe any journalist reports the absolute truth of any story at all, you are terribly naive (bordering on moronic).
KojiKnight
Member
I'm totally okay with this aspect of the story, I'm just baffled by the apparent blood lust some people have against this guy.
Even if the money she raised was refunded, there were still people that believed she was getting the surgery for the purpose she described.
There were people criticizing IndieGoGo for canceling her fundraiser and sentencing her to death.
She blackmailed Alistair into not publishing her story of fraud that the public had the right to know of the second she put her hat on the ground and asked for money. You open yourself up to scrutiny and when it turns out your story was a lie, I believe the public has a right to know the truth. They have the right to know the truth, because they had been deceived by the outlets linking and corroborating her story. They have the right to know, so that Chloe won't be able to use crowd-funding to defraud more innocent people.
It's not right to out someone before they are ready, but that right does not apply when it is the core to unraveling an attempted $30K scam.
There were people criticizing IndieGoGo for canceling her fundraiser and sentencing her to death.
She blackmailed Alistair into not publishing her story of fraud that the public had the right to know of the second she put her hat on the ground and asked for money. You open yourself up to scrutiny and when it turns out your story was a lie, I believe the public has a right to know the truth. They have the right to know the truth, because they had been deceived by the outlets linking and corroborating her story. They have the right to know, so that Chloe won't be able to use crowd-funding to defraud more innocent people.
It's not right to out someone before they are ready, but that right does not apply when it is the core to unraveling an attempted $30K scam.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
That would have just raised more questions. People don't hear "You are a victim of fraud." and just let it go. People would want to know the whole story. That's why when you get your credit card stolen the first thing they tell you is what the people bought with your money.
his employment isn't something i'm terribly concerned with. i do think if he's fired it might make people think twice before doing something like this, which would be a good thing.
the point is still that he could have reported on the fraud while leaving her personal details entirely out of it. the story would have lost nothing and the reaction would be exactly the same minus some transphobic bigotry.
PenaltyMan
Member
This is Dog Day Afternoon Redux, only the cops get fired for trying to stop the robbery. Who plays Al Pacino?
Tribalism at work.
KojiKnight
Member
Glad to see you're really up for talking and debating issues.
That said, if you believe it's the journalists job to cover up facts of the story and that is indeed part of journalism in general (and not LULZ faux news/MSNBC/etc) then I weep for what journalism is...
They certainly do but this isn't a grey area. Destructoid has grounds to fire him if they wanted to.
that is absolutely false and you know it
she attempted fraud, that's pretty straightforward and i'm in no way ignoring it, just arguing against most of the thread that her personal details are irrelevant
i think she shouldn't have gotten the money under false pretenses and guess what? she didn't.
I don't have a blood lust against him. He recognized he done harm and if it is genuine, I think he deserves another shot at being better at this stuff.
I very much believe that we also need to learn when to accept apologies when someone makes a mistake like this. It is a relatively new issue, after all, and if we only get angry at people who makes mistakes, it is not going to improve.
My issue really is with people saying he did nothing wrong at all when it the reality is more complex.
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Also, there's no one person in this thread defending fraud. Even those who understand what kind of mental state she is in for doing what she did are still very far away from saying she should have done it.
From what I have read it sounds like people were blaming Indiegogo for the suicide attempt. Revealing the fraud cleared up that misunderstanding.
faceless007
Member
"I have independently confirmed that Sagal's fundraiser was based on false pretenses and untrue claims, which is the reason it was cancelled by IndieGoGo. Sagal is now receiving medical attention following her suicide attempt. Due to my personal involvement with the story I am not at liberty to disclose more than that."
Someone tell me the problem with writing this instead. I mean, other than "People won't be satisfied." They can be unsatisfied all they want, people who were unconnected to the story do not have a right to more personal information than that. If "satisfying reader's desire for prurient information" is your primary goal, you're not a journalist, you're a tabloid writer.
Someone tell me the problem with writing this instead. I mean, other than "People won't be satisfied." They can be unsatisfied all they want, people who were unconnected to the story do not have a right to more personal information than that. If "satisfying reader's desire for prurient information" is your primary goal, you're not a journalist, you're a tabloid writer.
uh which part and how so? people are saying "oh surprise there's fraud in crowdfunding" etc, what exactly did the revelation of her gender identity add to the discussion?
KojiKnight
Member
I respect that you think that... I truly do. I just don't agree with the concept of intentionally covering up details. You say this only added transphobic bigotry but then what about your reaction? What about the people who've come to rally and support her now?
This isn't a black and white manner, there is no "good" and "bad" in this story, at least not by itself.
I agree, in fact I think they should fire him. I just don't think it should be because he told the truth regarding fraud. It should be because firstly he went against the editorial line and secondly he did a terrible job when the subject matter demanded his very best.
He was in direct communication with her. He did an independent investigation into her story. He found out that it was a fraud and was going to expose her fraud when she threatened to kill herself if he did so. He sat on the story. Once she tried to kill herself, he published the story.
I think people do have a right to know the "truth" when the person attempts to defraud the general public. No one should benefit from blackmailing press into covering up their fraud.
I saw and responded when you wrote that earlier and you absolutely nailed what a professional would have done.
when there's crime and blackmail involved people usually like to know the motive
link? also how is that any better now that we know why she did it? irrational people will be irrational, now they could just say igg kept her from getting the SRS she needed
Her personal life is part of the fraud, lying to gain money for SRS is the core the story .......... this has been stated a million times already but it seems it is being ignored.
Your glee in seeing some fired is a bit low to be honest, if Chloe had not done all this wrong there would be no story ...... it is entirely her fault there is a story in the first place.
I empathise with her plight but trying to steal money and lie about dying is fucking low.
Traumahound
Member
Do those that believe that Alistair should have left details out of the story think that should apply to everyone and every story?
Should the news media have never reported on Ted Haggard soliciting gay sex while actively campaigning against gay rights?
Should the news media have merely stated that Bill Clinton was under investigation for possibly lying about inappropriate behaviour and not that he received oral sex from an intern?
I mean, those are just private details that are immaterial to the actual matter at hand, right?
Should the news media have never reported on Ted Haggard soliciting gay sex while actively campaigning against gay rights?
Should the news media have merely stated that Bill Clinton was under investigation for possibly lying about inappropriate behaviour and not that he received oral sex from an intern?
I mean, those are just private details that are immaterial to the actual matter at hand, right?
and I would like to know alison brie's cell number
we don't always get what we want, and nobody had a right to chloe's personal information
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