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[charsace]

Publishers must be mad about this. The previous policies allowed those companies to rule the console space. Now they are gonna have way more competition.

 

[Garrett 2U]

He's saying you only get access to 3GB.

Really though it's a technical impossibility to push the XB1 to the max by using a normal retail XB1. You HAVE to have a devkit if you wanted to create a next gen-tier game. So Spencer is a little off on that one.

Well MS reserves a decent chunk of the hardware to run the OS partition concurrently with the game partition...
So the debug tools could be snapped using the OS resources while the game takes full advantage of the game partition.

 

[jcm]

This is how Whitten describes that

GB: Post-Xbox One launch and when this system is available, is there a reason for people to have proper Xbox One development kits? Is there a significant difference between what the developers get access to in terms of building their games?

Whitten: Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. There’s no “this is a second class sort of experience” type of thing. Right now, obviously, in the build-up to a platform launch, there’s lots of special builds and lots of special kits and all that kind of stuff, but that’s more time and place.

Don't know if that's a bullshit thing to say or what.

If that's accurate it's really great.

 

[Mario]

Also... talked to a dude at sony this afternoon that said what CBOAT is saying is also what the industry chatter is. Basically this is a backdoor to put content on Windows 8/XB1 and potentially Win phone 8. But it's going to be less powerful.

If it is this, I'm going to be disappointed. They've been suggesting this (half arse) solution would be there for a while.

 

[dragonelite]

Well this convinces me to buy a xbone when this is rolled out. This plan is exactly what I expected from BUILD.

I just hope this is not geographically limited like xblig was.

After notch tweet that was also why i watched both key conferences from BUILD.

 

[FINALBOSS]

"It's how we architectured the [Xbox One], but it won't all be there at launch."

 

[Lucent]

Couple things...


Sorry for the tease earlier. I honestly hadn't even realized I did it until my box/gchat blew up. I was thinking outloud like a dumbass. I can't spill the beans, i'm sorry.

lol. Hey, at least now I'm even more excited about Gamescom than before. =D

All I was expecting was a release date and some game information.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

It depends how much of the hardware you can use and how much access you have to Kinect, cloud, and achievements, and the dev environment.
The console having a dev mode is a huge plus.
It very well could be.

I think it has more to do with contract requirements/promotion guarantees/forced exclusivity. Also whether or not the Win8 App back door dealy is true.

 

[IHaveCandy]

This is why I wish interviewers would ask more specific questions that cannot be danced around. If I only had one question I could ask, I would ask "Are independent Xbox One games developed on retail consoles able to be designed to run on the same 5 GB of RAM reserved for the Game OS and do they have full CPU/GPU performance available as retail Xbox One games".

 

[GoofsterStud]

Kinect wasn't ever allowed on Xbox 360 indies, can't wait to see what the indies do with kinect 2.

???

Why doesn't the Double Fine "Kinect Party" my kids love count?

 

[tfur]

Why do I get the impression this is bullshit and MS is just pretending they had this planned all along?

MS: what a hot mess...

Yeah. I am not going to believe anything Microsoft says for a while. It's probably more prudent to wait for the console to launch to see the truth. A year after launch with this specific PR.

 

[Megatron]

Behind Sony? How so?



.

Because Sony has been treating them like Royalty for two years, while Microsoft has been treating them like 3rd class citizens. Now that Microsoft is finally wising up, that isn't going to make developers drop Sony for Microsoft, it will probably just help them choose to port games they were already making for the PS4 to the XB1. Some devs like Jonathon Blow and Phil Fish probably aren't going to come back to Microsoft even with this news, so that's why you'd put them below Sony.

 

[Lynn616]

...so I guess they really are combining stores.

I uh...I don't know how well that's going to go.

I thought that was what everyone wanted?

 

[Dragon]

Archaic ways? You are totally ignoring what MS stance of indies has been up until now, aren't you? Or are you also buying into the false narrative?

False narrative? They've destroyed their relationship with indies over the past few years. It's good that they've reversed some of the stuff that made the Xbone a step back in many ways from the 360 but be real here.

 

[twobear]

This is why I wish interviewers would ask more specific questions that cannot be danced around. If I only had one question I could ask, I would ask "Are independent Xbox One games developed on retail consoles able to be designed to run on the same 5 GB of RAM reserved for the Game OS and do they have full CPU/GPU performance available as retail Xbox One games".

Wouldn't the walled garden OS afford indie developers less horsepower than the 360?

 

[Gowans]

???

Why doesn't the Double Fine "Kinect Party" my kids love count?

Xbox indies not xbla

 

[IHaveCandy]

Wouldn't the walled garden OS afford indie developers less horsepower than the 360?

Well that is the question I want answered. This "Do these games get to use the whole system" can be danced around a bit. That's why I'd like specific numbers being used in the question.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Xbox indies not xbla

Gotcha... I wonder how that happened then.

 

[famousmortimer]

So is he right or not?

I don't know!


The rumor since before E3 was that the follow up to XNA was going basically going to be Windows 8. That anyone in the world could build games for that which if they fit whatever the parameters were could also be put on the xbox one and windows phone 8.


So Cboat is saying it's limited to 3gbs, right? I'm not a tech guy... I may be totally wrong about this. But the idea that it uses one of the OS's doesn't preclude it from also using the free ram, does it? That's where I get lost on people trying to discredit what he is saying. But to be clear... I also don't understand exactly what he is saying. The person I talked to did say "What Cboat is saying is what we've heard all summer." this afternoon. At that point (and the point at which I wrote that post) I didn't even know what Cboat had said. I went and looked at it real quick.


I just listened to Whitten talk to Klepek on Giantbomb and he certainly makes it sound like it's going to be a dev kit that can do anything. But he never really clarifies whether that's for everyone or not. The system may very well be a full fledged dev kit when coupled with a powerful PC... but that doesn't mean that anyone making games for it can use all of those features. But it doesn't mean that they can't, either. It's confusing. And it's intentionally confusing. Microsoft isn't vague with their wording or messaging because they suck at wording or messaging... they are purposefully vague because it suits them. It's devious but it's smart.


As for whether, ultimately, cboat is right or wrong, the dude I talked to (and hence me) are right or wrong... is up in the air. It's hard to get into the leaking business when a company keeps pulling 180s. This entire windows 8 backdoor strategy may have been tossed out and this may be exactly what they are making it sound like. I'm not claiming to know either way, I'm just passing along what I heard.

 

[Zatoichi's Cane]

In an ideal world indies would tell the groveling, $h&@ eater that is Microsoft to go F€%# itself.

Sorry, Microsoft you're not getting a cent from me, you can go ahead and make your little "media box" $199 and I still wouldn't touch it.

I was so ready to jump ship from the PS3 too, but Sony fixed everything that was wrong with the PS4.

 

[ferr]

Not shocked, every 360 is a dev kit. Just wonder what the framework will be if they're moving away from XNA.

 

[Quasar]

"It's how we architectured the [Xbox One], but it won't all be there at launch."

Well both can be true. Ditto the whole gaikai thing and Sony. Given the talk about xbone dev tools being 6 months behind ps4, its no surprise that this setup would not be ready day one.

 

[JaggedSac]

I've also gotten a strangely high number of PMs asking if Sony is going to open their PS4s to be debug units. As far as I know (and I don't know much)... no. But they are handing out dev kits to anyone and everyone who asks for one that shows even slightly promising work. Sony isn't sweating any sort of indie exodus. They are treating them as equals, microsoft is seemingly sectioning them off . We'll see.


That's all the chatter I have about this for now.

That isn't the case by the sounds of what MS is saying today.

 

[jim2011]

In an ideal world indies would tell the groveling, $h&@ eater that is Microsoft to go F€%# itself.

Sorry, Microsoft you're not getting a cent from me, you can go ahead and make your little "media box" $199 and I still wouldn't touch it.

I was so ready to jump ship from the PS3 too, but Sony fixed everything that was wrong with the PS4.

And then you just blew tons of potential revenue from all of Xbox one's user base...

 

[xemumanic]

Uh, how can you not tell that it is indeed a reactionary move? Did the "within a year" bit really not give you a hint?

As neptunes said right after you, MS were the ones to give indies a spotlight (on consoles) to begin with. The OS situation means this was always the plan, they wouldn't have bothered to make it work like that otherwise. They KILLED XNA for this. Ages ago. Just because its not there within the first year doesn't disprove anything, there's enough to be done from a console's launch, to that first year.

 

[GoofsterStud]

I don't know!


The rumor since before E3 was that the follow up to XNA was going basically going to be Windows 8. That anyone in the world could build games for that which if they fit whatever the parameters were could also be put on the xbox one and windows phone 8.


So Cboat is saying it's limited to 3gbs, right? I'm not a tech guy... I may be totally wrong about this. But the idea that it uses one of the OS's doesn't preclude it from also using the free ram, does it? That's where I get lost on people trying to discredit what he is saying. But to be clear... I also don't understand exactly what he is saying. The person I talked to did say "What Cboat is saying is what we've heard all summer." this afternoon. At that point (and the point at which I wrote that post) I didn't even know what Cboat had said. I went and looked at it real quick.


I just listened to Whitten talk to Klepek on Giantbomb and he certainly makes it sound like it's going to be a dev kit that can do anything. But he never really clarifies whether that's for everyone or not. The system may very well be a full fledged dev kit when coupled with a powerful PC... but that doesn't mean that anyone making games for it can use all of those features. But it doesn't mean that they can't, either. It's confusing. And it's intentionally confusing. Microsoft isn't vague with their wording or messaging because they suck at wording or messaging... they are purposefully vague because it suits them. It's devious but it's smart.


As for whether, ultimately, cboat is right or wrong, the dude I talked to (and hence me) are right or wrong... is up in the air. It's hard to get into the leaking business when a company keeps pulling 180s. This entire windows 8 backdoor strategy may have been tossed out and this may be exactly what they are making it sound like. I'm not claiming to know either way, I'm just passing along what I heard.

3 GB is saved for the OS... So there forth they can only use 3GB if programming for the OS. That's how it works. You can't go over what the system is allowed. So they probably have less than 3 GB to work with. It's probably a Windows 8 tie in thing.

We have no idea at this point. Things could change. I hope they do. Some Indie games are extremely impressive visually.

Trine 2 is still the best looking (3D) game I have played. Limiting these games to 3 GB while PS4 has 7 GB is a mystery...but if it's tied down to an OS that can only use a max of 3 GB that'd make sense.

 

[USC-fan]

Pretty amazing MS has a ton of people that make well over $100000+ running the xbox one design. Complete train wreck... How could they not see the backlash coming?

Next is kinect... Treat it like you did the HDD this gen. Make a tard pack without a kinect. MS please contact me, i could have saved you guys millions.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Not shocked, every 360 is a dev kit. Just wonder what the framework will be if they're moving away from XNA.

No, 360 still has dev kits if you are creating an app or game, with the exception of XBLIG, in which case you are correct.

Their likely won't be a framework. Just straight C++/DirectX, which is great. That way developers could use engines like Unity (just updated to add Windows 8Windows Phone 8 support btw).

 

[Quasar]

No, 360 still has dev kits if you are creating an app or game, with the exception of XBLIG, in which case you are correct.

Their likely won't be a framework. Just straight C++DirectX, which is great. That way developers could use engines like Unity (just updated to add Windows 8Windows Phone 8 support btw).

I guess we'll just see an update to visual studio express that supports it all.

 

[Slappers Only]

No MS! Don't do something awesome that Sony isn't doing. Internet whiners need this to not be true!

 

[jim2011]

GB: Post-Xbox One launch and when this system is available, is there a reason for people to have proper Xbox One development kits? Is there a significant difference between what the developers get access to in terms of building their games?

Whitten: Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. There’s no “this is a second class sort of experience” type of thing. Right now, obviously, in the build-up to a platform launch, there’s lots of special builds and lots of special kits and all that kind of stuff, but that’s more time and place.

GB: But this isn’t a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, you’re only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once it’s all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: That’s right.

I think that's pretty clear

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Microsoft isn't vague with their wording or messaging because they suck at wording or messaging... they are purposefully vague because it suits them. It's devious but it's smart.

This. So much this.

They will often say something that when parsed is literally true, but worded in a way that implies something else, particularly when hyping up future products.

For example, "Access to full hardware" and "Full access to hardware" do not mean the same thing, although they sort of sound like they might.

 

[Megatron]

He's throwing away free money. I mean, I know how badly MS burned him over the patch and all, but if the PS4 and X1 both have X86 architecture and AMD graphics, why cut off that revenue stream if all things are equal?

As long as it comes out on Steam, I won't miss a chance to play Fez II, but still, revenue streams.

Some things are more important than revenue streams, like your principles. And anyway, as long as it's on PC and PS3/4 he won't lose that much money, many of the people who would have bought it on an Xbox system will just buy one of the other versions.

 

[xemumanic]

For example, "Access to full hardware" and "Full access to hardware" do not mean the same thing, although they sort of sound like they might.

Please, for the sake of clarity and to avoid any confusion going forward, explain to us the difference and meaning. There's gonna be a lot of double talk going forward from people who have a different agenda than getting the facts straight.

Also, because while I know what you mean, and have an idea of the two meanings, I'm honestly not sure which is which.

 

[DopeyFish]

False narrative? They've destroyed their relationship with indies over the past few years. It's good that they've reversed some of the stuff that made the Xbone a step back in many ways from the 360 but be real here.

They certainly have not destroyed their relationship with indies. All people wanted with 360 was home brew, MS gave them a marketplace. This marketplace was the first indie marketplace. Opened before App Store, opened before steam became a complete marketplace. When XNA launched, it was the only thing of its kind.

Yes. Microsoft didn't know how to fix XNA. XBLA wasn't really intended for indies but indies only wanted to publish on XBLA (due to the restrictions of managed code, visibility problems and lack of pricing flexibility)

The indies that signed deals is where some problems came in, but majority of indies still thoroughly like the direction Microsoft has been taking.

The steps Microsoft took towards indie viability for consoles on Xbox 360 were HUGE and this is another big jump if they nail the discoverability.

Yes, Microsoft kinda mishandled the small to medium indies, but they nailed the tiny indies (home brew). Now they are changing the scope (by merging down)

You are confusing the XBLA problems with their independent games initiative.

 

[S¡mon]

You know, somewhere I'm glad they changed their minds, but I rarely see companies say "we'll do A" and shorly after "No, no! We'll do B!". They are constantly changing their minds - and to me, that's a bad sign.

 

[dream431ca]

This is crazy! Pretty much every damn thing about the Xbox One has been reversed!

Xbox One-Eighty Confirmed.

 

[dragonbane]

If he knew enough to clarify about the limitations for self publishing that GI leaked (even though his info ended up being wrong), why didn't he leak that they'd be allowing self-publishing when that had been set in motion for such a long time? Considering people in the media were aware of it weeks ago. It sounds like he deliberately withheld a positive development, and reacted to it becoming public knowledge by trying to downplay it.

Because he said he is going to leak less stuff after E3 and trying to keep a low profile for a while, because he was pretty active the last few months (more than usual) and probably was at risk getting caught. Since the rumour was already out there, he could respond without problems.

Famous is also backing him that he heard something similar and Famous is very reliable. So even if it turns out to be false, it was probably true at some point (up to BUILD I think). He also doesn't just run with things already speculated/rumoured. Please explain the Remember Me GIF, the GTA SA list of voice actors and some of his other stuff. Has has legit info, but obviously can't know everything.

 

[xemumanic]

You know, somewhere I'm glad they changed their minds, but I rarely see companies say "we'll do A" and shorly after "No, no! We'll do B!". They are constantly changing their minds - and to me, that's a bad sign.

This is a very dynamic industry, where perception > reality.
I actually think its a good thing.

 

[famousmortimer]

This. So much this.

They will often say something that when parsed is literally true, but worded in a way that implies something else, particularly when hyping up future products.

For example, "Access to full hardware" and "Full access to hardware" do not mean the same thing, although they sort of sound like they might.

Exactly. And microsoft isn't the only company to do this... but they've been doing it a lot this cycle. So I find it hard to take that Whitten interview at face value.


It's much like Family Sharing. There was 12 days between when it was announced and then canceled and they never once explained how it worked. And after it was canceled they didn't explain how it worked. And then they hinted that it may come back in the future... AND THE STILL DIDN'T EXPLAIN HOW IT WORKS! This isn't an accident, people. Microsoft didn't get to where they are by being completely inept. They obfuscate with the best of them.

But it must be said that just because they have a history of distorting things doesn't mean they are now. This may be the time they are straight up telling it like it is. I just don't blame anyone that is reticent to trust them. Just like I understand completely people who don't trust Sony's online security.

 

[Osiris]

I think that's pretty clear

You do know why he starts that answer with "Our goal is for you..." instead of a more definitive statement don't you?

Nothing is "clear" yet, not even to Microsoft itself, this whole thing is part of an internecine tug-of-war and I'll put good money on the fact that the internal fight over this is far from over yet.

Microsoft, as ever, being Microsofts own worst enemy.

 

[Pound_lb003]

I think that's pretty clear

I don't.

GB: Post-Xbox One launch and when this system is available, is there a reason for people to have proper Xbox One development kits? Is there a significant difference between what the developers get access to in terms of building their games?

Whitten: Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. There’s no “this is a second class sort of experience” type of thing. Right now, obviously, in the build-up to a platform launch, there’s lots of special builds and lots of special kits and all that kind of stuff, but that’s more time and place.

GB: But this isn’t a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, you’re only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once it’s all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: That’s right.

He's not actually saying much. And Klepek didn't keep his question open enough.

EDIT: Beaten.

 

[Zatoichi's Cane]

And then you just blew tons of potential revenue from all of Xbox one's user base...

I know, that's why I said in an ideal world. You can't fault anyone making a living as a dev if they did publish on xbone...

 

[soul creator]

Well MS reserves a decent chunk of the hardware to run the OS partition concurrently with the game partition...
So the debug tools could be snapped using the OS resources while the game takes full advantage of the game partition.

That would actually explain a lot. If they've truly intended every retail system to potentially run as a devkit, that could explain the tradeoff of only having 5GB for games. The 3GB is then basically used as the typical "devkit tools overhead" area. If they tried to use 7GB for games like on PS4, then it possibly wouldn't have enough memory to double as a devkit.

Obviously during the run-up to launch, they'd have to do a bunch of special case devkits, but going forward, any Xbox could then be a "real" devkit, for both EA, and random dude in his bedroom.

That is closer to the iOS App Store side of things. I don't think Apple sends out special fancy expensive devkits to EA compared to dude in his bedroom or something. It's all just Macs and iOS devices.

Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

 

[Owzers]

the ability to self publish games should not be a secret that you want to surprise people with 3 months before launch.

 

[Pound_lb003]

the ability to self publish games should not be a secret that you want to surprise people with 3 months before launch.

Yeah. Just yes.

This whole reveal has been mired with awful decisions.

 

[IHaveCandy]

I don't like "our goal". The same goes for Gaikai. I want to know what is and what will be.

 

[xxracerxx]

MS is scrambling to pick up all the pieces they have dropped this year. Good lord they are a disaster.

 

[RiverBed]

Well they WERE the ones to bring indies to the spotlight this gen

Did people believe they were going to drop indies this genie it wasn't for Sony?

I guess from now on any positive move they do will seem reactionary, regardless if it is or not.

not indie support, that would be stupid. but how open/accessible they are with indies.
was that really that ambiguous?

 

[Freshmaker]

Kinect wasn't ever allowed on Xbox 360 indies, can't wait to see what the indies do with kinect 2.

Someone should use it at least. MS isn't.