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Lives and continues have no place in games post-SNES/Genesis

You can't always credit feed to get to the additional loops though. So it is restricting access to levels because of player ability...

True, but I think you still see the credits if you credit-feed through the first loop. Depends on the game.

Either way, you can get a sense of "completion" on your own terms. I imagine the vast majority of STG players don't know about second loops.
 

andymcc

Banned
True, but I think you still see the credits if you credit-feed through the first loop. Depends on the game.

Either way, you can get a sense of "completion" on your own terms. I imagine the vast majority of STG players don't know about second loops.

I'd wager that most STG players are niche/core players and they're probably well aware of their existence... now if they're able to access further loops is a different story entirely.

i think if you are going to offer credits to the player, that unlimited shouldn't be upfront. i'm not the biggest fan of their STGs, but the home versions of Treasure games, for example, get it right. One hour = another earned credit. After a few hours, unlimited is finally unlocked. I still strive for 1CC but I believe this way it forces not-so-familiar players to get a little better at the game and still gives them the ability to complete if their skills are not up to snuff.
 
A lot of people play games to experience novel things, not to master a system.

I always felt like this was a cop out statement because all video games are experiences, why can't getting better at a game be an experience as well? Maybe it'd help build character or some sort of self/emotional discipline.
 

jman2050

Member
I always felt like this was a cop out statement because all video games are experiences, why can't getting better at a game be an experience as well? Maybe it'd help build character or some sort of self/emotional discipline.

I maintain that the positive emotional payoff for completing a long and difficult game far exceeds anything an "experience" driven title can bring you.
 
There's not nearly as much tension if you've got nothing to lose. Have you never had one of those "No lives, no continues, 10% health, final hit on the boss" moments? It doesn't get much better than that.

It raises the tension if there's some sort of drawback to not succeeding. Without starting over the level, you could just try the boss over and over again until you get it. There's no heart-racing close calls because there are no stakes.

I'm not suggesting they start your whole game over, but a little bit of "punishment" for poor play actually enhances the game design.


Yup, pretty much
 
I always felt like this was a cop out statement because all video games are experiences, why can't getting better at a game be an experience as well? Maybe it'd help build character or some sort of self/emotional discipline.

That would require effort, dedication, and can lead to failure. Modern gamers crave cinematic experiences where they can hold forward and press A while the game plays itself.
 
That would require effort, dedication, and can lead to failure. Modern gamers crave cinematic experiences where they can hold forward and press A while the game plays itself.
Shadow I promise on your old Terry avatar that one day we will rid this world of bitch ass scrubs and revive the golden days of true gaming through challenge!

There were air quotes for a reason!

What reason was that?
 

spekkeh

Banned
I always felt like this was a cop out statement because all video games are experiences, why can't getting better at a game be an experience as well? Maybe it'd help build character or some sort of self/emotional discipline.
Well you invariably get better, because all games offer up some kind of conflict that needs to be overcome, it more depends on how important you consider it. I'd say after 28 years of gaming a powertrip certainly doesn't feel very novel. A very difficult game is not more fun to me than an easy one. The Walking Dead was my last year's GOTY, and it had no difficulty at all.

I maintain that the positive emotional payoff for completing a long and difficult game far exceeds anything an "experience" driven title can bring you.
Meh, you grow over it.
 
Well you invariably get better, because all games offer up some kind of conflict that needs to be overcome, it more depends on how important you consider it. I'd say after 28 years of gaming a powertrip certainly doesn't feel very novel. A very difficult game is not more fun to me than an easy one. The Walking Dead was my last year's GOTY, and it had no difficulty at all.

I can understand, since I have some mystery visual novel/puzzle games that I hold high in regard. I'm more against the idea that difficult games, or skill based games are archaic or don't have a place in modern gaming. I think that they have a place and a demand just as simpler narrative driven adventures, and to complain about those rules and limitations given to you by the game does both the player and the game itself a disservice.
 

andymcc

Banned
I'd say after 28 years of gaming a powertrip certainly doesn't feel very novel. A very difficult game is not more fun to me than an easy one.

Been gaming about as long and I don't want to waste my time on more passive gaming experiences. I understand some people get connected to narrative (99% of game plots do not appeal to me) and that adding lives or continues isn't a solution for all kinds of games. Don't take them away from games that benefit from them, I want to climb that mountain.
 
I will be the first person to tell you that the concept of lives and continues are outdated and only really exist as a vestigial feature left over from the days of arcades. They could have been done away with as soon as you no longer needed to pop quarters in to play the game.

That having been said, I think it's misguided and arrogant to say that they have "no place" in games. Developers should be free put whatever they want into their games for better or worse.

I can understand the concept of lives and continues in making the experience more difficult. Primarily lives, in that if a player doesn't complete an objective within their set life limit then perhaps the game would send them back to the start of an area, rather than letting them continue from their checkpoint. That's just an example, but I think it's valid.

So, I say that they have a place in any game that wishes to use them.
 

Orayn

Member
I maintain that the positive emotional payoff for completing a long and difficult game far exceeds anything an "experience" driven title can bring you.

I happen to agree, but that doesn't mean there's a single right way to do things. Novels are theoretically a better storytelling medium than television, but that doesn't mean television can't be good or worthwhile.
 
After 10 years and many tries I am finally getting into Devil May Cry. Being patient and looking at patterns is actually clicking and I made further than I ever had. Everything is cool except for one thing.

What kind of shit for brains thought limited continues and making you start a mission all the way over was a good idea?

It's the boss that's kicking my ass, don't waste my time and make me run through the entire level of respawning enemies for that!

Do the sequels get rid of this junk?
Yeah. I also thought while I was "playing": why the hell can't I beat the whole game by pressing a button?
Why isn't everything stuffed with scripted explosions, and why do they expect me to learn my enemy's pattern instead of beating him with a cool QTE?

But hey, I'm a super hardcore and Nintendo is for kiddies 'cause I play games for adults and take virtual drugs on my gamez oh and the first thing I do when I play a game for the first time is getting as close to a wall as I can searching for bad textures and then complain about them on the internet forums!!!!

Now seriously, this is why this industry is rooting from the very insides.
 
Meh, you grow over it.
Can't really say you do. Skill based games have been a part of my life for a long time, and because of them I have grown very confident in both my abilities of understanding, execution, and adaption. I feel more compelled to take on seemingly difficult tasks with the hopes of breaking them down to understand them.

Been gaming about as long and I don't want to waste my time on more passive gaming experiences. I understand some people get connected to narrative (99% of game plots do not appeal to me) and that adding lives or continues isn't a solution for all kinds of games. Don't take them away from games that benefit from them, I want to climb that mountain.
This, some of us actually do grow from these experience, hence we respect the challenge aspect of video games.
 

jwhit28

Member
There needs to be some sort of punishment for failure or it will impossible to invoke a sense of loss. Since every game seems to have experience points now, I would say implement a system like the Souls games where you lose your currency and experience points if you die twice in a row without picking them back up.
 
He's right. Why force to re-start from the beginning of a level? Why limit the number of lives?

Because it sucks if you can just mash your way through a game without ever having to consider what you're doing. If you want to know why lives, continues, and retry structures are important, try playing Final Fight without limiting yourself on credit usage at all and see how "fun" it is.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I can understand, since I have some mystery visual novel/puzzle games that I hold high in regard. I'm more against the idea that difficult games, or skill based games are archaic or don't have a place in modern gaming. I think that they have a place and a demand just as simpler narrative driven adventures, and to complain about those rules and limitations given to you by the game does both the player and the game itself a disservice.

Sure, that's why I said a lot of players play for novel experiences more than powertrips, certainly not all of them. In fact, most probably play to feel good about themselves primarily, because such a sense of achievement through competition is very important for a lot of males, and in the age group 14-20 especially, when there's strife to assert dominance in the peer group.

(of course increasing in competence is an important motivator for everyone, but like I said all games have this to some degree; I meant as the prime motivator of the player and that the game is design around)

The second point is of course whether lives and continues are a good way to go about achieving this difficulty. I can't help but feel they're an artificial imposement, where task load instead of extraneous load should be leading in creating difficulty, and positive rewards are better than negative rewards. Somebody's example of Bayonetta was a good one in my opinion. As there's a certain randomness to the fights, you can't rely on patterns but have to comprehend the totality of actions of the opponent. In such a way you don't have to extrinsically increase the difficulty, as there's an intrinsic difficulty in the task. Of course if the complexity of a game does solely lie in pattern memorization, such as in old shmups, you need an external mechanism, and lives and continues can be utilized.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Can't really say you do. Skill based games have been a part of my life for a long time, and because of them I have grown very confident in both my abilities of understanding, execution, and adaption. I feel more compelled to take on seemingly difficult tasks with the hopes of breaking them down to understand them.

Good for you. But now that you are very confident, do you still need them?
 
Good for you. But now that you are very confident, do you still need them?

Hell yeah! Just because I've overcome one challenge doesn't mean I'm done with them. I love this shit man! I'm always looking forward to the next challenge! Everything else just falls flat when compared to mastering the depth of great mechanics.

The problem for guys like me, is that no matter how good a narrative is, if the gameplay is solid or pushes the medium, it's just boring. Skill has refined our tastes.

Basically it's reasons like his some people revisit Mario games and buy new ones. We enjoy playing video games and pushing our ability. That playground that might seem like hell to you, looks fun to us.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I generally agree with the breakdown of Bayonetta upthread. In my view, games like Bayonetta or the Souls games do preserve the concept of "lives" or continues but abstract them into a different form. I like the idea of a game having a persistence over time with regards to your performance in it. In a pure arcade setting - and that's still perfectly valid to day for total arcade experiences such as score attack shooters - some classic mechanics like lives and a simple scoreboard work fine.

In a lot of other kinds of more contemporary games, shifting the challenge onto mastering a game over a longer period of time without interrupting the current flow of play may be a better way to go. Anyone can scrub their way through the game but there are rewards for those who sit down and master it. It's little different from learning how to 1cc an arcade shooter, except the barrier for enjoyment by the typical player is set lower.
 

Myriadis

Member
It works on some games, but not on all. The difference between losing a life or getting a game over in Mario 64/Banjo-Kazooie is starting either at the hub world or the beginning of the level you're currently in, which is a time difference of 2-3 minutes and not really punishing at all. The Metroid and Zelda games wouldn't make sense with this either and especially the Metroid Games mostly still have the challenge and thrill even without lives.

It's another "depends on the game" thing.
 

graydavis

Banned
contra 4 would not have been as good with unlimited credits. I will say this there is no correct design for games, hence some shooters should do iron sights and regen health, others should not, some rpgs should do random battles others should not, and some games should have limited lives, others should not.
Is that really that difficult to grasp. allow different games that appeal to different tastes to exist.
 

Riposte

Member
Well, this may sound like a tangent, but I think it touches on some secondary topics here:

Playing for novelty, as a priority, poisons one's mind and greatly limits their potential to say anything of value. Someone who treats their many videogames as a buffet should be dismissed out of hand in any semi-serious discussion (any thread where a good poster contributes and isn't just fucking around).

I think it is commonly overlooked that videogames require a form of discipline (or conditions which force it) to get the most out of them. In a world where people can hoard a thousand F2P/cheap steam/etc. games and fill up their emulator folders (with options to breeze through these games no less), it is all too easy for passion to be replaced by a learned desire to waste time. (And if what I'm saying sounds like something that can be applied outside videogames, that's because it is.)

Some self-titled "core" gamers on GAF don't even realize they are actually treating videogames as "time-wasters" - just like the casuals on phones they may or may not mock. That's not a passion for videogames; that's filling a void in absence of passion - unacknowledged apathy (is it really a surprise GAF has become bigger than gaming for some people?). When you are just trying to waste-time with minimal investment (little patience for any meaningful obstacles), novelty (including false innovation, "art-games", reversing values, etc.) is king, as it is something that can be observed and appreciated even with uninitiated eyes.

I first noticed this phenomenon sometime around my freshman year of high school when a friend of mine did the most amazing thing: he summoned a seemingly endless number of playable arcade roms (countless good games and plenty of peerless classics) onto any school PC he could get his hands on. He then proceeded to play and credit-feed through a dozen of them each day, assuming he didn't get the sudden urge to play something else while in the middle of one. Despite how incomplete his experiences were, he never played the same game twice. Here were some of the best action games released and they had become completely disposable and forgettable. While the credit-feeding no doubt played a big role in this process, I will instead blame two other things. First, the sheer amount of options meant that the optimal rate of novelty doesn't consist of playing of one game, but rather playing as many games as possible in smaller chunks (this is perfectly reasonable to a point, as variety is the spice of life, but variety is not merely novelty). If you don't have the discipline to handle such a large pool, you'll become a insatiable glutton for the next flashy (most novel) thing you know you can have right this instant. Second, he was using MAME to burn up the time he spent at school (another source of apathy), which is a different way to approach gaming. This sounds pretty specific, but I would say it is not too dissimilar from people using videogames to eat up some brief time after work (a potentially energy-consuming ordeal that may leave one without passions if it isn't one) - the most beloved excuse for scrubiness, in any case. Basically, dedication and deeper understanding was never going to be part of the picture.

Mind you, we both expressed our love (and used much of our time) for videogames, but I couldn't help but use these observations to mark an unspoken difference between us (an understanding made at the time that may very well be why I see videogames the way I do now, years later).

Anyway, cheating your way through is worse than never reaching passed a certain level. It is a question of debasing the game or not, which in the process debases yourself. It is better to just play (but never settle) for an easier game or look within to gain an appreciation for your struggling - even if that means, yes, there is less novelty of graphics and sounds to be had because you are only playing the first three levels.
 

luka

Loves Robotech S1
i always get a kick out of the "i'm a grown man and don't have time for hard/time consuming games" posts. as a full time university student with a job who has very little time to myself, games with excessive checkpointing and no punishment for failure may be easier to get into and complete, but completion feels every bit as hollow as they did when i didn't have a combined 6 hours of game time a week.

playing games that reward consistent and extended performance with reasonable challenge and failure states will always be more satisfying than meaningless bite-sized chunks of content tourism. finishing a game isn't a race so why would your schedule affect the enjoyment of learning a new game? just sounds like excuses to me.


yeah, riposte just demolished this thread.
 
Well, this may sound like a tangent, but I think it touches on some secondary topics here:

Playing for novelty, as a priority, poisons one's mind and greatly limits their potential to say anything of value. Someone who treats their many videogames as a buffet should be dismissed out of hand in any semi-serious discussion (any thread where a good poster contributes and isn't just fucking around).

I think it is commonly overlooked that videogames require a form of discipline (or conditions which force it) to get the most out of them. In a world where people can hoard a thousand F2P/cheap steam/etc. games and fill up their emulator folders (with options to breeze through these games no less), it is all too easy for passion to be replaced by a learned desire to waste time. (And if what I'm saying sounds like something that can be applied outside videogames, that's because it is.)

Some self-titled "core" gamers on GAF don't even realize they are actually treating videogames as "time-wasters" - just like the casuals on phones they may or may not mock. That's not a passion for videogames; that's filling a void in absence of passion - unacknowledged apathy (is it really a surprise GAF has become bigger than gaming for some people?). When you are just trying to waste-time with minimal investment (little patience for any meaningful obstacles), novelty (including false innovation, "art-games", reversing values, etc.) is king, as it is something that can be observed and appreciated even with uninitiated eyes.

I first noticed this phenomenon sometime around my freshman year of high school when a friend of mine did the most amazing thing: he summoned a seemingly endless number of playable arcade roms (countless good games and plenty of peerless classics) onto any school PC he could get his hands on. He then proceeded to play and credit-feed through a dozen of them each day, assuming he didn't get the sudden urge to play something else while in the middle of one. Despite how incomplete his experiences were, he never played the same game twice. Here were some of the best action games released and they had become completely disposable and forgettable. While the credit-feeding no doubt played a big role in this process, I will instead blame two other things. First, the sheer amount of options meant that the optimal rate of novelty doesn't consist of playing of one game, but rather playing as many games as possible in smaller chunks (this is perfectly reasonable to a point, as variety is the spice of life, but variety is not merely novelty). If you don't have the discipline to handle such a large pool, you'll become a insatiable glutton for the next flashy (most novel) thing you know you can have right this instant. Second, he was using MAME to burn up the time he spent at school (another source of apathy), which is a different way to approach gaming. This sounds pretty specific, but I would say it is not too dissimilar from people using videogames to eat up some brief time after work (a potentially energy-consuming ordeal that may leave one without passions if it isn't one) - the most beloved excuse for scrubiness, in any case. Basically, dedication and deeper understanding was never going to be part of the picture.

Mind you, we both expressed our love (and used much of our time) for videogames, but I couldn't help but use these observations to mark an unspoken difference between us (an understanding made at the time that may very well be why I see videogames the way I do now, years later).

Anyway, cheating your way through is worse than never reaching passed a certain level. It is a question of debasing the game or not, which in the process debases yourself. It is better to just play (but never settle) for an easier game or look within to gain an appreciation for your struggling - even if that means, yes, there is less novelty of graphics and sounds to be had because you are only playing the first three levels.

This post is too good.
 

jman2050

Member
Well, this may sound like a tangent, but I think it touches on some secondary topics here:

Playing for novelty, as a priority, poisons one's mind and greatly limits their potential to say anything of value. Someone who treats their many videogames as a buffet should be dismissed out of hand in any semi-serious discussion (any thread where a good poster contributes and isn't just fucking around).

I think it is commonly overlooked that videogames require a form of discipline (or conditions which force it) to get the most out of them. In a world where people can hoard a thousand F2P/cheap steam/etc. games and fill up their emulator folders (with options to breeze through these games no less), it is all too easy for passion to be replaced by a learned desire to waste time. (And if what I'm saying sounds like something that can be applied outside videogames, that's because it is.)

Some self-titled "core" gamers on GAF don't even realize they are actually treating videogames as "time-wasters" - just like the casuals on phones they may or may not mock. That's not a passion for videogames; that's filling a void in absence of passion - unacknowledged apathy (is it really a surprise GAF has become bigger than gaming for some people?). When you are just trying to waste-time with minimal investment (little patience for any meaningful obstacles), novelty (including false innovation, "art-games", reversing values, etc.) is king, as it is something that can be observed and appreciated even with uninitiated eyes.

I first noticed this phenomenon sometime around my freshman year of high school when a friend of mine did the most amazing thing: he summoned a seemingly endless number of playable arcade roms (countless good games and plenty of peerless classics) onto any school PC he could get his hands on. He then proceeded to play and credit-feed through a dozen of them each day, assuming he didn't get the sudden urge to play something else while in the middle of one. Despite how incomplete his experiences were, he never played the same game twice. Here were some of the best action games released and they had become completely disposable and forgettable. While the credit-feeding no doubt played a big role in this process, I will instead blame two other things. First, the sheer amount of options meant that the optimal rate of novelty doesn't consist of playing of one game, but rather playing as many games as possible in smaller chunks (this is perfectly reasonable to a point, as variety is the spice of life, but variety is not merely novelty). If you don't have the discipline to handle such a large pool, you'll become a insatiable glutton for the next flashy (most novel) thing you know you can have right this instant. Second, he was using MAME to burn up the time he spent at school (another source of apathy), which is a different way to approach gaming. This sounds pretty specific, but I would say it is not too dissimilar from people using videogames to eat up some brief time after work (a potentially energy-consuming ordeal that may leave one without passions if it isn't one) - the most beloved excuse for scrubiness, in any case. Basically, dedication and deeper understanding was never going to be part of the picture.

Mind you, we both expressed our love (and used much of our time) for videogames, but I couldn't help but use these observations to mark an unspoken difference between us (an understanding made at the time that may very well be why I see videogames the way I do now, years later).

Anyway, cheating your way through is worse than never reaching passed a certain level. It is a question of debasing the game or not, which in the process debases yourself. It is better to just play (but never settle) for an easier game or look within to gain an appreciation for your struggling - even if that means, yes, there is less novelty of graphics and sounds to be had because you are only playing the first three levels.

And I think we're done here.
 

qq more

Member
Well, this may sound like a tangent, but I think it touches on some secondary topics here:

Playing for novelty, as a priority, poisons one's mind and greatly limits their potential to say anything of value. Someone who treats their many videogames as a buffet should be dismissed out of hand in any semi-serious discussion (any thread where a good poster contributes and isn't just fucking around).

I think it is commonly overlooked that videogames require a form of discipline (or conditions which force it) to get the most out of them. In a world where people can hoard a thousand F2P/cheap steam/etc. games and fill up their emulator folders (with options to breeze through these games no less), it is all too easy for passion to be replaced by a learned desire to waste time. (And if what I'm saying sounds like something that can be applied outside videogames, that's because it is.)

Some self-titled "core" gamers on GAF don't even realize they are actually treating videogames as "time-wasters" - just like the casuals on phones they may or may not mock. That's not a passion for videogames; that's filling a void in absence of passion - unacknowledged apathy (is it really a surprise GAF has become bigger than gaming for some people?). When you are just trying to waste-time with minimal investment (little patience for any meaningful obstacles), novelty (including false innovation, "art-games", reversing values, etc.) is king, as it is something that can be observed and appreciated even with uninitiated eyes.

I first noticed this phenomenon sometime around my freshman year of high school when a friend of mine did the most amazing thing: he summoned a seemingly endless number of playable arcade roms (countless good games and plenty of peerless classics) onto any school PC he could get his hands on. He then proceeded to play and credit-feed through a dozen of them each day, assuming he didn't get the sudden urge to play something else while in the middle of one. Despite how incomplete his experiences were, he never played the same game twice. Here were some of the best action games released and they had become completely disposable and forgettable. While the credit-feeding no doubt played a big role in this process, I will instead blame two other things. First, the sheer amount of options meant that the optimal rate of novelty doesn't consist of playing of one game, but rather playing as many games as possible in smaller chunks (this is perfectly reasonable to a point, as variety is the spice of life, but variety is not merely novelty). If you don't have the discipline to handle such a large pool, you'll become a insatiable glutton for the next flashy (most novel) thing you know you can have right this instant. Second, he was using MAME to burn up the time he spent at school (another source of apathy), which is a different way to approach gaming. This sounds pretty specific, but I would say it is not too dissimilar from people using videogames to eat up some brief time after work (a potentially energy-consuming ordeal that may leave one without passions if it isn't one) - the most beloved excuse for scrubiness, in any case. Basically, dedication and deeper understanding was never going to be part of the picture.

Mind you, we both expressed our love (and used much of our time) for videogames, but I couldn't help but use these observations to mark an unspoken difference between us (an understanding made at the time that may very well be why I see videogames the way I do now, years later).

Anyway, cheating your way through is worse than never reaching passed a certain level. It is a question of debasing the game or not, which in the process debases yourself. It is better to just play (but never settle) for an easier game or look within to gain an appreciation for your struggling - even if that means, yes, there is less novelty of graphics and sounds to be had because you are only playing the first three levels.

*claps*
 

Tain

Member
I never made that connection between the worship of novelty and treating games as time-wasters but it's spot on and seems super obvious now that I've read that post, lol.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
I'm pretty much with the OP.

I have no patience or interest in challenging games anymore. I get plenty of challenges (and stress) in my career, push myself with my running etc.

My hobby time is purely to veg out and relax. So I like games that are pretty easy, have generous checkpoints/auto saves etc. as I mainly play for the story, atmosphere and experience than the gameplay/challenge these days.

And even then I'm questioning whether to buy a PS4 or just bow out of gaming after I finish up my PS3 and 3DS backlogs as I just don't enjoy gaming nearly as much as more passive/relaxing hobbies like movies and reading as I really just want to veg out after work/chores/social obligations than so something interactive.

I have no problem admitting that games, movies, novels etc. are just time wasters for me. I'm not someone whose life revolves around my hobbies. My main passions are my work and my friends and family. Hobbies are just time wasters to fill in the gaps around that and/or veg out a bit when I need to shut my brain mostly off for a while.
 
winner68s0d.gif

Lol!
 

PaulloDEC

Member
Agree with the OP. The lives system needs to either become optional, or get the hell out of gaming. It doesn't belong on any console that doesn't have a coin slot, IMO.

Difficulty is about making a task hard to complete, not telling a person that after X number of goes they won't be allowed to try anymore.

If you want to make your game challenging, make it challenging. Don't arbitrarily force me to replay sections I've already completed because you can't let go of a mechanic that became irrelevant two decades ago.
 
Agree with the OP. The lives system needs to either become optional, or get the hell out of gaming. It doesn't belong on any console that doesn't have a coin slot, IMO.

Difficulty is about making a task hard to complete, not telling a person that after X number of goes they won't be allowed to try anymore.

If you want to make your game challenging, make it challenging. Don't arbitrarily force me to replay sections I've already completed because you can't let go of a mechanic that became irrelevant two decades ago.

It's not forcing you to do anything. You chose to play the game. Those are the rules of the game and what you must abide by in order to play it.
 

pizza dog

Banned
Games are shit at implementing those rules now though, in a lot of cases. Lives have no teeth, no consequence. Look at any recent Mario game: you start with five lives or whatever, you lose from death and gain from pulling off tricky things in levels like lining up a good shell kick or whatever, but then if you reset the game you reset back to five lives. If you get a game over screen there's a sad little song and then you recent at five lives.

There's no incentive to learn cool tricks, and there's no punishment if you don't. Lives are, precisely only, a number in a database that gets displayed at the corner of the screen.

Maybe they were appropriate once, or could be appropriate now, but nobody uses them in any kind of meaningful way.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
It's not forcing you to do anything. You chose to play the game. Those are the rules of the game and what you must abide by in order to play it.

So nobody is allowed to complain about any aspect of any game because they "chose to play the game" and "those are the rules of the game". Got it.
 

Tain

Member
pizza dog said:
Maybe they were appropriate once, or could be appropriate now, but nobody uses them in any kind of meaningful way.

Mario games do use them poorly (getting so many lives that they become meaningless makes them a slight wrinkle and not a serious problem), but as I've said to others who have tried to use that as some kind of proof, it doesn't take much looking to find other recent games that use them well (or better than Mario, at least). Plenty of other modern 2D action games use them, like Cave games, Hard Corps Uprising, and Dragon's Crown, as do the occasional 3D ones like Monster Hunter and Killer is Dead. Just a handful off of the top of my head.

PaulloDEC said:
Difficulty is about making a task hard to complete, not telling a person that after X number of goes they won't be allowed to try anymore.

I've never played a game that does this, and I've played a lot of games.
 
Games are shit at implementing those rules now though, in a lot of cases. Lives have no teeth, no consequence. Look at any recent Mario game: you start with five lives or whatever, you lose from death and gain from pulling off tricky things in levels like lining up a good shell kick or whatever, but then if you reset the game you reset back to five lives. If you get a game over screen there's a sad little song and then you recent at five lives.

There's no incentive to learn cool tricks, and there's no punishment if you don't. Lives are, precisely only, a number in a database that gets displayed at the corner of the screen.

Maybe they were appropriate once, or could be appropriate now, but nobody uses them in any kind of meaningful way.

Mario games usually uses them like this, once you run out of lives, you start over in the first stage of whatever world you're in. Unless you've reached a save point. So I disagree.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I've never played a game that does this, and I've played a lot of games.

I'm pretty sure you knew what I was saying, but for the sake of clarification:

Difficulty is about making a task hard to complete, not telling a person that after X number of goes they won't be allowed to try anymore until they've needlessly replayed a section of the game they'd already previously completed.
 

KarmaCow

Member
I'm pretty sure you knew what I was saying, but for the sake of clarification:

The only time I'd say a section is needless upon replay is if it doesn't offer flexibility and variance in how the player completes it. That's not the fault inherent to checkpoints/lives but rather the overall design of the game if there are fail states.
 
Well, this may sound like a tangent, but I think it touches on some secondary topics here:

Playing for novelty, as a priority, poisons one's mind and greatly limits their potential to say anything of value. Someone who treats their many videogames as a buffet should be dismissed out of hand in any semi-serious discussion (any thread where a good poster contributes and isn't just fucking around).

I think it is commonly overlooked that videogames require a form of discipline (or conditions which force it) to get the most out of them. In a world where people can hoard a thousand F2P/cheap steam/etc. games and fill up their emulator folders (with options to breeze through these games no less), it is all too easy for passion to be replaced by a learned desire to waste time. (And if what I'm saying sounds like something that can be applied outside videogames, that's because it is.)

Some self-titled "core" gamers on GAF don't even realize they are actually treating videogames as "time-wasters" - just like the casuals on phones they may or may not mock. That's not a passion for videogames; that's filling a void in absence of passion - unacknowledged apathy (is it really a surprise GAF has become bigger than gaming for some people?). When you are just trying to waste-time with minimal investment (little patience for any meaningful obstacles), novelty (including false innovation, "art-games", reversing values, etc.) is king, as it is something that can be observed and appreciated even with uninitiated eyes.

I first noticed this phenomenon sometime around my freshman year of high school when a friend of mine did the most amazing thing: he summoned a seemingly endless number of playable arcade roms (countless good games and plenty of peerless classics) onto any school PC he could get his hands on. He then proceeded to play and credit-feed through a dozen of them each day, assuming he didn't get the sudden urge to play something else while in the middle of one. Despite how incomplete his experiences were, he never played the same game twice. Here were some of the best action games released and they had become completely disposable and forgettable. While the credit-feeding no doubt played a big role in this process, I will instead blame two other things. First, the sheer amount of options meant that the optimal rate of novelty doesn't consist of playing of one game, but rather playing as many games as possible in smaller chunks (this is perfectly reasonable to a point, as variety is the spice of life, but variety is not merely novelty). If you don't have the discipline to handle such a large pool, you'll become a insatiable glutton for the next flashy (most novel) thing you know you can have right this instant. Second, he was using MAME to burn up the time he spent at school (another source of apathy), which is a different way to approach gaming. This sounds pretty specific, but I would say it is not too dissimilar from people using videogames to eat up some brief time after work (a potentially energy-consuming ordeal that may leave one without passions if it isn't one) - the most beloved excuse for scrubiness, in any case. Basically, dedication and deeper understanding was never going to be part of the picture.

Mind you, we both expressed our love (and used much of our time) for videogames, but I couldn't help but use these observations to mark an unspoken difference between us (an understanding made at the time that may very well be why I see videogames the way I do now, years later).

Anyway, cheating your way through is worse than never reaching passed a certain level. It is a question of debasing the game or not, which in the process debases yourself. It is better to just play (but never settle) for an easier game or look within to gain an appreciation for your struggling - even if that means, yes, there is less novelty of graphics and sounds to be had because you are only playing the first three levels.
Yeah. As much as people want these "interactive experience" type games that are designed to push the player through with as little resistance as possible, these games just aren't fulfilling. Challenge is something that is necessary in all games that I can think of. Now the level of challenge that engages a player in the experience varies from person to person, but the need for success and failure, and the consequences of such, are what makes games, well, games. Games that try to minimize this aspect and focus on superficial things come off as a lesser imitation of movies, books, ect.
 
I'm pretty sure you knew what I was saying, but for the sake of clarification:

Who's to say you're "needlessly" replaying sections? Take any given Mega Man game, for example. The OP argues that DMC is flawed because you have to replay an entire level if you run out of lives on a boss, but that isn't a flaw - it just means that the game is challenging the player to beat the stage and boss on one set of lives, rather than separating the stage and boss into separate challenges. It isn't unfair; it's just asking more out of the player.

You could argue "if he can make it to the boss once, then he's already proven that he can beat the level and shouldn't be challenged again". But just how well does he beat the level? Does he do it without taking damage every time? Has he figured out the most profitable and efficient way to defeat every enemy in the stage? If he hasn't, then replaying the stage holds value too.
 
People like this are the reason why can't lose movies, I mean games, are so popular.

Maybe you should get good at the game instead of crying about how much you, I mean the system, sucks.
 
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