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[polyh3dron]

Snitch is derailing the fuck out of this thread with the whole "gamers are the worst bigots ever" bullshit.

 

[remnant]

Microsoft and Activision have historically banned players from announcing their homosexuality online. The stated reasons from both is that the reaction to this fact creates such a disturbance that it needs to happen. This tells us that the problem is so severe that it is easier to ban mention of homosexuality - positive or negative - on Xbox Live and World of Warcraft instead of banning people for harassing people for their sexuality.

So Cod and WoW define all of gaming now? Assuming the above is true.

 

[IWKYB]

Dude got banned.

Ill prob get it as well. No sarcasm fonts yet...

 

[polyh3dron]

So Cod and WoW define all of gaming now? Assuming the above is true.

Yeah it's funny because I was watching a video interview with the Ghosts director and he said he always meets people that tell him they're not gamers, they just play CoD.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

That's not the point though. The user stated that she shouldn't care that she was called an it.

Yeah, that's just fucked up. Then again... he also said that women don't get to complain about the status of sexism in games because "they're already catered to". Also, snowflakes. He really likes snowflakes.

 

[IWKYB]

People don't need "authority" to be able to speak their mind. Everyone has equally valid rights to speak here, regardless of their gender.

That is equality after all.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Yeah I know! I can only assume that he is a male non-transgender person and, as such, has no authority telling transgender people how they are allowed to react to being called an "it" - a common word used as an attack on transgender people.

Whoa, let's calm down there for a second. That guy was banned for that. Why are you trying to apply his lack of compassion to all heterosexual males?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Snitch is derailing the fuck out of this thread with the whole "gamers are the worst bigots ever" bullshit.

I said that? I must have blacked out for that. Or perhaps you're a gigantic manchild who cannot look at his own community and say "there is an element of it - a rather vocal, loud, and common element - that is extremely negative and isn't being dealt with well enough".

Also, I said XBL and WoW, not CoD and WoW. But since you mentioned that, there's also the Activision ad that promoted the word fag, and the Battlefield 3 event that excluded women as a result of the bad behaviour of male players involved. It's rewarding their bad behaviour rather than punishing them for it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Whoa, let's calm down there for a second. That guy was banned for that. Why are you trying to apply his lack of compassion to all heterosexual males?

I was responding to the user who said "Wow. Just wow." (and also agreed with the post that I was responding to)

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Microsoft and Activision have historically banned players from announcing their homosexuality online. The stated reasons from both is that the reaction to this fact creates such a disturbance that it needs to happen. This tells us that the problem is so severe that it is easier to ban mention of homosexuality - positive or negative - on Xbox Live and World of Warcraft instead of banning people for harassing people for their sexuality.

Except that's not Microsoft's stated position. But hey, keep making shit up.

I said that? I must have blacked out for that. Or perhaps you're a gigantic manchild who cannot look at his own community and say "there is an element of it - a rather vocal, loud, and common element - that is extremely negative and isn't being dealt with well enough".

That's exactly what you said: Gamers are worse bigots than any other community out there:

So your assertion is that a group of people that do not identify as gamers yet also harass and threaten minorities are as widespread and vicious as the group of gamers that revel in making such death threats?

What is this group? Or are you saying it as a hypothetical? Then yes, I agree that theoretically, a group of non-gamers could do the same thing if they so chose.

 

[Shinta]

I said that? I must have blacked out for that. Or perhaps you're a gigantic manchild who cannot look at his own community and say "there is an element of it - a rather vocal, loud, and common element - that is extremely negative and isn't being dealt with well enough".

Also, I said XBL and WoW, not CoD and WoW. But since you mentioned that, there's also the Activision ad that promoted the word fag, and the Battlefield 3 event that excluded women as a result of the bad behaviour of male players involved. It's rewarding their bad behaviour rather than punishing them for it.

Yeah, calling someone a manchild is sexist. I guess you didn't see my post the last time, so I'll copy and paste it.

It's sexist to imply that people you don't like aren't "real men." It's a long standing legacy of male gender socialization that "manhood" has to be earned. People who try to take it away call them "manchildren," like they have any right to decide who a "real man" is. It's an embarrassing term to use.

No one is the "gatekeeper" of someone else's manhood. That's a long standing sexist socialization society perpetuates.

Do you see anyone around here calling women they disagree with "little girl?" That would be bannable so fast.

 

[Deitus]

That you're taking this personally either means that you need to take a chill pill or, deep down, you feel that you are one of the people that needs to become more educated on things. Choose.

I wouldn't say I'm taking it personally. I just don't like people spreading prejudice in the name of tolerance. There was some absolutely reprehensible shit that went down, by some truly awful people. There is no reason to judge millions of people for the actions of a few shitheads.

And yes, I need to be more educated on things. So do you. So does everyone in this thread, and in fact in the world. The only way we learn to treat each other with respect is by trying to understand one another. Drawing arbitrary boundaries and demonizing groups of people only serves to tear people apart.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Except that's not Microsoft's stated position. But hey, keep making shit up.

Oh, sorry. It was banned for being "sexually innuendo".

 

[Phamit]

I dont know, but i often read Hip hop Forums and yeah....i wouldnt say its a better Community, there are a lot of shitheads too, but also a lot of good people.


I believebin other Communitys you will find similar Situation

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Oh, sorry. It was banned for being "sexually innuendo".

No, it's because people tend to use the word negatively, and that goes against Microsoft ToS.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

People don't need "authority" to be able to speak their mind. Everyone has equally valid rights to speak here, regardless of their gender.

Of course. Not every opinion is equally informed or valid, however. Someone non-trans telling trans people what is and isn't offensive to them, well... You don't see that as mightily presumptuous?

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I wouldn't say I'm taking it personally. I just don't like people spreading prejudice in the name of tolerance. There was some absolutely reprehensible shit that went down, by some truly awful people. There is no reason to judge millions of people for the actions of a few shitheads.

And yes, I need to be more educated on things. So do you. So does everyone in this thread, and in fact in the world. The only way we learn to treat each other with respect is by trying to understand one another. Drawing arbitrary boundaries and demonizing groups of people only serves to tear people apart.

I agree with this.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I wouldn't say I'm taking it personally. I just don't like people spreading prejudice in the name of tolerance. There was some absolutely reprehensible shit that went down, by some truly awful people. There is no reason to judge millions of people for the actions of a few shitheads.

And yes, I need to be more educated on things. So do you. So does everyone in this thread, and in fact in the world. The only way we learn to treat each other with respect is by trying to understand one another. Drawing arbitrary boundaries and demonizing groups of people only serves to tear people apart.

I need you to listen for a second. are you saying that you consider the word portion to mean the entirety of? If not, then you are grossly misinterpreting my post.

Yeah, calling someone a manchild is sexist. I guess you didn't see my post the last time, so I'll copy and paste it.

It's sexist to imply that people you don't like aren't "real men." It's a long standing legacy of male gender socialization that "manhood" has to be earned. People who try to take it away call them "manchildren," like they have any right to decide who a "real man" is. It's an embarrassing term to use.

No one is the "gatekeeper" of someone else's manhood. That's a long standing sexist socialization society perpetuates.

Do you see anyone around here calling women they disagree with "little girl?" That would be bannable so fast.

Sorry - I calls 'em as I sees 'em. And yes, I have used opposite gender insults towards women who were so blissfully unaware of reality as some people in this thread have been. I called him a manchild because he interpreted a post to mean "the entirety of the gaming community" when it explicitly stated that it referred to only a portion of it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Unfortunately it seems that I need to address what people interpret as me saying that "All gamers are bigots".

My original post clearly, definitively states that a portion of gamers are vicious and horrible people. That post cannot be interpreted to mean what people have come to think my statements on the matter to be.

The quote taken above clearly refers to a group of gamers, not gamers as a whole. As much as people seem to be very interested in twisting my words to mean one thing, it's not entirely twistable in this case.

 

[Shinta]

Sorry - I calls 'em as I sees 'em. And yes, I have used opposite gender insults towards women who were so blissfully unaware of reality as some people in this thread have been. I called him a manchild because he interpreted a post to mean "the entirety of the gaming community" when it explicitly stated that it referred to only a portion of it.

You don't have any clue how old he is. You don't know if he's an adult or not. The term you use implies that he is an adult, but not deserving to be one.

It's literally the textbook sexist attack on men. Men have had to go through trials to earn the right to be called a man for centuries. Whether it's going on a big hunt, enlisting to go to war, having a job, getting married, etc.

The point is it denies the innate humanity of men to imply that they have to earn the right to be a man. No one says women have to earn the right to be women. They just are.

It's a very loaded term to use, and it's particularly ridiculous to hear it from someone who thinks they're a champion of awareness and tolerance.

 

[Wazzy]

Best post yet, bravo! In before you are called an asshole uneducated gamer.

Why would you call this a best post? It's by far one of the worst in the thread.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You don't have any clue how old he is. You don't know if he's an adult or a not. The term you use implies that he is an adult, but not deserving to be one.

It's literally the textbook sexist attack on men. Men have had to go through trials to earn the right to be called a man for centuries. Whether it's going on a big hunt, enlisting to go to war, having a job, etc.

The point is it denies the innate humanity of men to imply that they have to earn the right to be a man. No one says women have to earn the right to be women. They just are.

It's a very loaded term to use, and it's particularly ridiculous to hear it from someone who thinks they're a champion of awareness and tolerance.

I'm sorry - so your stance is that people who intentionally misinterpret the words of others in order to weaken their argument are people who deserve respect? I'm afraid not. I will also go and say that male discrimination isn't enough of an issue to make it the same as if someone were to discriminate against women, homosexuals, transgender people, blacks, etc.

Why would you call this a best post? It's by far one of the worst in the thread.

If y'all haven't noticed, IWKYB doesn't exactly shy away from supporting transphobia.

 

[knkng]

I said that? I must have blacked out for that. Or perhaps you're a gigantic manchild who cannot look at his own community and say "there is an element of it - a rather vocal, loud, and common element - that is extremely negative and isn't being dealt with well enough".

You openly insult someone and then complain about negativity in the gaming community...

Regardless, I more or less agree with you. I pretty much never play online games because most of the people who are playing them are absolute trash and give me a fucking headache. But to suggest that they need to be "dealt with"? Believe me, I'd like to throw 75% of them into a volcano, but that's not happening. There's no solution here. Some people are total assholes, and a good deal of them are attracted to video games. It's ultimately a problem that has to be fixed at the societal level. Sometimes you just have to know when and where to pick your fights. Xbox Live or Twitter or YouTube comments and so forth are not a good place to start.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Why would you call this a best post? It's by far one of the worst in the thread.

You openly insult someone and then complain about negativity in the gaming community...

Regardless, I more or less agree with you. I pretty much never play online games because most of the people who are playing them are absolute trash and give me a fucking headache. But to suggest that they need to be "dealt with"? Believe me, I'd like to throw 75% of them into a volcano, but that's not happening. There's no solution here. Some people are total assholes, and a good deal of them are attracted to video games. It's ultimately a problem that has to be fixed at the societal level. Sometimes you just have to know when and where to pick your fights. Xbox Live or Twitter or YouTube comments and so forth are not a good place to start.

I insulted him because he is consciously ignoring me when I point out that I've never accused gamers as a whole of being bigoted - merely that the nature of gaming attracts people like that more than other hobbies.

 

[Shinta]

I will also go and say that male discrimination isn't enough of an issue to make it the same as if someone were to discriminate against women, homosexuals, transgender people, blacks, etc.

What that really says when you translate it, is that you know you're using loaded, derogatory language but don't care because it's against men? Sounds pretty much like the sentiment a few pages back using "cis" in a similar way.

Why is gender based discrimination okay when it's against the majority group? It's not hard to practice what you preach. You literally say it's "not enough of an issue to make it the same."

I mean, wow.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Unfortunately it seems that I need to address what people interpret as me saying that "All gamers are bigots".

My original post clearly, definitively states that a portion of gamers are vicious and horrible people. That post cannot be interpreted to mean what people have come to think my statements on the matter to be.

The quote taken above clearly refers to a group of gamers, not gamers as a whole. As much as people seem to be very interested in twisting my words to mean one thing, it's not entirely twistable in this case.

You weren't being clear. No one was twisting your words on purpose. You're not being persecuted here. NeoGAF is a safe place for everyone, right? It's in the TOS.

Maybe there is a subset of the gaming community that are bigots. IMO it only seems that way because few communities are so tied to the internet as ours. Of course you're going to see more bigotry online from a community that's online.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What that really says when you translate it, is that you know you're using loaded, derogatory language but don't care because it's against men? Sounds pretty much like the sentiment a few pages back using "cis" in a similar way.

Why is gender based discrimination okay when it's against the majority group? It's not hard to practice what you preach. You literally say it's "not enough of an issue to make it the same."

I mean, wow.

Well, first off, it's a rather obvious answer that a specific group of human being controls more power in the world than any other group of human beings. This is why prejudice against white people, prejudice against men, prejudice against Christians, etc. - while unfortunate and not ideal - is not as a bad as prejudice against groups that don't have nearly as many opportunities, advantages, or rights as the aforementioned group.

Secondly, the user made a statement that demonstrated that he was either too stupid to read what I was saying, or was willfully misinterpreting my statements to mean something that they clearly cannot mean out of an emotional reaction. I do not feel that a person who would make a conscious effort to misinterpret a statement that could only be read as "there needs to be something done about a portion of the gaming community that discriminates against minorities" into "gamers are bigots" deserves respect.

 

[IWKYB]

Why would you call this a best post? It's by far one of the worst in the thread.

Sarcasm followed by psychic prediction.

 

[polyh3dron]

Oh I'm a manchild now?

 

[Deitus]

I need you to listen for a second. are you saying that you consider the word portion to mean the entirety of? If not, then you are grossly misinterpreting my post.

That wasn't the post I objected to, it was your justification in the subsequent posts that bugged me. I don't agree with your claim that the gaming community is unique in it's ability to spread hate.

But I'll drop it, because it doesn't appear that you intended it to be quite as generalized as it sounded.

 

[Wazzy]

If y'all haven't noticed, IWKYB doesn't exactly shy away from supporting transphobia.

Not sure why I'm quoted twice but I'll just assume it's a mistake. Anyway, is there evidence outside of this thread? He's definitely given off vibes this thread, especially after supporting that other awful post. Just want to see if he has made other comments.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Unfortunately it seems that I need to address what people interpret as me saying that "All gamers are bigots".

My original post clearly, definitively states that a portion of gamers are vicious and horrible people. That post cannot be interpreted to mean what people have come to think my statements on the matter to be.

The quote taken above clearly refers to a group of gamers, not gamers as a whole. As much as people seem to be very interested in twisting my words to mean one thing, it's not entirely twistable in this case.

Hahaha, now you're twisting everyone else's words. polyh3dron said:

Snitch is derailing the fuck out of this thread with the whole "gamers are the worst bigots ever" bullshit.

This is absolutely, 100% true. You are claiming that the gaming community is more bigoted than any other community (although to be fair, this may be because you inexplicably don't believe other subcultures exist):

So your assertion is that a group of people that do not identify as gamers yet also harass and threaten minorities are as widespread and vicious as the group of gamers that revel in making such death threats

What is this group? Or are you saying it as a hypothetical? Then yes, I agree that theoretically, a group of non-gamers could do the same thing if they so chose. Even in situations where a person isn't actively participating in a gaming discussion, you're bound to find people exercising their anonymity while making these threats likely play games in between.

You are literally saying that non-gaming communities do not have bigots, or at least have very few. By extension, this means that you said the majority, if not all bigots are gamers.



You're lying, and then trying to cover your ass. Which is fitting, given that the woman this thread's about did too.

 

[Gaaraz]

Anyone who was there and saw this will know how much this was blown out of proportion.

Yes the presenter could've handled the situation better, and it was slightly awkward, but he didn't say half of the things that she's claiming he did.

 

[Vagabundo]

I'm sorry - so your stance is that people who intentionally misinterpret the words of others in order to weaken their argument are people who deserve respect? I'm afraid not. I will also go and say that male discrimination isn't enough of an issue to make it the same as if someone were to discriminate against women, homosexuals, transgender people, blacks, etc.
.

So can we use sexist or bigoted insults against those who we disagree with or find disagreeable?

You should just man up* and admit it was a mistake rather than doubling down.

You're just coming across as a hypocrite at this point.
*:/

 

[knkng]

I insulted him because he is consciously ignoring me when I point out that I've never accused gamers as a whole of being bigoted - merely that the nature of gaming attracts people like that more than other hobbies.

Hard to say for certain. It could just be the communicative nature of our hobby. If there was somehow a "leave a message" option on public radio I'm certain it would also be filled with nonstop bullshit. You can pretty much see this reflected in any YouTube video's comment section. But like I said before, you can't "fix" this. It's societal in nature. Just look past or avoid the negative, and try to find the positive aspects instead.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Oh I'm a manchild now?

Are you asking if your childish behaviour of taking statements that mean one thing and making it seem as though they mean something entirely different makes you a manchild?

I think you can be left to figure that out for yourself.

 

[IWKYB]

Not sure why I'm quoted twice but I'll just assume it's a mistake. Anyway, is there evidence outside of this thread? He's definitely given off vibes this thread, especially after supporting that other awful post. Just want to see if he has made other comments.

Learn to read. I support equality not specific groups that splinter further the goal for true understanding. If you perceive things differently it is another thing.

 

[polyh3dron]

Oh now I'm being childish?

Please proceed.

 

[Nephtis]

Well, first off, it's a rather obvious answer that a specific group of human being controls more power in the world than any other group of human beings.This is why prejudice against white people, prejudice against men, prejudice against Christians, etc. - while unfortunate and not ideal - is not as a bad as prejudice against groups that don't have nearly as many opportunities, advantages, or rights as the aforementioned group.
t.

As part of a minority group, I resent this. Prejudice against anyone should not be tolerated at all, it doesn't matter if it's against a minority or majority -- it's still a terrible thing. You're basically saying it's ok to ignore someone's suffering because they happened to be part of a majority. Something that they have no control in -- being born white, male, or what have you.

No individual should be slighted. I don't want someone to put more importance on the racism I experience because I'm Hispanic -- if someone is being racist to a white person, I'd want the exact same level of attention and I would expect the same punishment being handed out to the perpetrators.

 

[Shinta]

Well, first off, it's a rather obvious answer that a specific group of human being controls more power in the world than any other group of human beings. This is why prejudice against white people, prejudice against men, prejudice against Christians, etc. - while unfortunate and not ideal - is not as a bad as prejudice against groups that don't have nearly as many opportunities, advantages, or rights as the aforementioned group.

Secondly, the user made a statement that demonstrated that he was either too stupid to read what I was saying, or was willfully misinterpreting my statements to mean something that they clearly cannot mean out of an emotional reaction. I do not feel that a person who would make a conscious effort to misinterpret a statement that could only be read as "there needs to be something done about a portion of the gaming community that discriminates against minorities" into "gamers are bigots" deserves respect.

I've seen polyh3dron post a lot. He can read just fine. He's also not "too stupid" to follow conversations.

And personally, I think everyone deserves respect. One of the key lessons of this whole ordeal is that even someone who misled people about what happened at this event, and exaggerated parts of it does not deserve to be harassed (even though their actions led to the harassment of others). They deserve respect. Even if they identify themselves as a different gender than they were biologically born as, they deserve respect and deserve to be called whatever gender they identify themselves as.

You're just insulting people, arguing why discrimination against white male Christians is more acceptable, and admittedly using derogatory language. Why not stop doing that?

As part of a minority group, I resent this

Same here.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I insulted him because he is consciously ignoring me when I point out that I've never accused gamers as a whole of being bigoted - merely that the nature of gaming attracts people like that more than other hobbies.

You've said this a lot, but the closest thing to evidence you provided is dangerously close to "He's a bigot so he probably games".

 

[A Link to the Past]

Hahaha, now you're twisting everyone else's words. polyh3dron said:



This is absolutely, 100% true. You are claiming that the gaming community is more bigoted than any other community (although to be fair, this may be because you inexplicably don't believe other subcultures exist):



You are literally saying that non-gaming communities do not have bigots, or at least have very few. By extension, this means that you said the majority, if not all bigots are gamers.



You're lying, and then trying to cover your ass. Which is fitting, given that the woman this thread's about did too.

I like your agenda 'dere.

My statement was that the gaming community attracts bigots better than most if not all online communities due to the nature of the community. No one has contradicted that and, when I asked for examples, the most people could give was the music industry of which is far too general and far too massive to even provide further example. When people asked me to provide evidence, I showed how Tropes vs. Video Games poisoned any discussion of misogyny in video games because the people who were against the Kickstarter derailed those discussions. I provided multiple examples of companies in the gaming industry that restricted or derided homosexuals and/or women. How about that very recent incident where a journalist harassed models for the Tomb Raider game and verbally assaulted one of the female developers? It's a problem all the time because it happens all the time. Because you are so intent on coming up with your own interpretation to suit your own agenda, you cannot see the ultimate message. But that's fine. I've realized that people like you cannot be reasoned with. If you would like to continue with your conspiracy theory, then I am in no position to stop you.

 

[Tesseract]

Are you asking if your childish behaviour of taking statements that mean one thing and making it seem as though they mean something entirely different makes you a manchild?

I think you can be left to figure that out for yourself.

cretins gonna crete.

 

[IWKYB]

You're just insulting people, arguing why discrimination against white male Christians is more acceptable, and admittedly using derogatory language. Why not stop doing that?

Same here.

I don't get this either. I'm latino btw so even though I'm not the majority i don't get this way of thinking aren't we all the same then. What is the point of understanding each other only if it benefits the way i was born? Bias much?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Oh now I'm being childish?

Please proceed.

Well, yes, the act of consciously disrespecting someone and interpreting their post to mean something that it was clearly not intended to mean is an act of childishness.

I shall go on note to apologize for calling you a "manchild". I will not, however, apologize for calling you childish, for the same reason you seem to lack the intent to apologize for your misinterpretations.

 

[Vagabundo]

It appears in this situation that the presenter was unsure of the person's gender and to avoid insult used probably a worse insult. Which obviously caused upset. I can imagine that this has been a sensitive issue for her and she has had shit from people about her gender etc..

I'm wondering though, what do you do if you are unsure of someones gender? How do you ask in a way that isn't an insult?

Here's the best I could come up with:
"I'm sorry, but how do you wish to be referred to?"

It doesn't sound great to my ear.

 

[Wazzy]

Learn to read. I support equality not specific groups that splinter further the goal for true understanding. If you perceive things differently it is another thing.

If you were being sarcastic about supporting that post(which your original post gives no indications of but whatever) then okay. If you however were serious, then I will definitely question your views on transgendered equality.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I like your agenda 'dere.

My statement was that the gaming community attracts bigots better than most if not all online communities due to the nature of the community. No one has contradicted that and, when I asked for examples, the most people could give was the music industry of which is far too general and far too massive to even provide further example. When people asked me to provide evidence, I showed how Tropes vs. Video Games poisoned any discussion of misogyny in video games because the people who were against the Kickstarter derailed those discussions. I provided multiple examples of companies in the gaming industry that restricted or derided homosexuals and/or women. How about that very recent incident where a journalist harassed models for the Tomb Raider game and verbally assaulted one of the female developers? It's a problem all the time because it happens all the time. Because you are so intent on coming up with your own interpretation to suit your own agenda, you cannot see the ultimate message. But that's fine. I've realized that people like you cannot be reasoned with. If you would like to continue with your conspiracy theory, then I am in no position to stop you.

Racism!

 

[A Link to the Past]

You've said this a lot, but the closest thing to evidence you provided is dangerously close to "He's a bigot so he probably games".

I'm afraid that your intepretation of what I said cannot mean that. What I said was that gaming is such a common activity that people on the Internet, especially YouTube, are probably gamers.

 

[Brianimaniac]

Looking back at the situation after more info has made it out, I don't know that I would have handled the situation any better in the moment than the comedian. Looking at the picture of the individual in question, I would not have immediately identified them as female, and if I had then been told that my initial statement was wrong, I'd have been caught off guard, and even with no intent to offend or be insensitive, something less than ideal could easily come out.