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[polyh3dron]

You'll also have to elaborate where the irony lies (but not the salt).

Oh the whole misinterpreting thing.

 

[erawsd]

I am not being obtuse. I've had one point and I've stuck to it. It's your problem that you cannot understand it or rather would prefer it to mean something else. If you think my original post should not have been made, then you are wrong. Any community, be it music, film, TV, etc. where this situation would come up or could come up, it should be made the same there. But on that note, do we legitimately see nearly as much anonymous hate towards minorities there as we see in the gaming communities? On TV it's usually hating people for disagreements on TV shows.

Absolutely. Maybe you don't see it because you aren't as involved in other communities. The other day they crowned an Indian Miss America and there was a flood of racist tweets and comments on news/blogs sites.

Every community has very loud bigots. Hell, everyone here likely has them somewhere in their families.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Oh the whole misinterpreting thing.

Oh. I thought it was something relevant to his statement. What could he be suggesting by saying that he would have shrugged it off? What do you think he meant when he said that being called "it" was a trivial matter?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

This discussion relates to the gaming community and other communities using anonymity on the Internet in order to be fucktards. That article, while a fair point on the music industry in general, is not relevant to the subject of anonymity or even the community as much as it is the producers of rap content.

Uh, sure. Get back to me when you become a regular in those communities, 'k? Because there's a reason that musicians feel the need to shove misogynistic crap into everything.

Or hell, here. It's not music, but:
http://sbpress.com/2013/10/miss-america-american-culture-and-douchebag-racists/

They must be gamers.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Absolutely. Maybe you don't see it because you aren't as involved in other communities. The other day they crowned an Indian Miss America and there was a flood of racist tweets and comments on news/blogs sites.

Every community has very loud bigots. Hell, everyone here likely has them somewhere in their families.

That wasn't a community though; that was an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (racism). I doubt that the people saying all of those things were huge Miss America fans for the most part.

 

[Pezking]

He said that it was trivial, that he would have shrugged it off, and said that she was acting like a "special snowflake" for becoming upset.

No, he said that he himself would have shrugged it off, but if you're offended by someone, first discuss that matter privately with that person or if necessary, his superior.

That "special snowflake" comment wasn't about becoming upset, but rather about instantly taking such a matter to the public. At least that's how I understood it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

People, we have to remember that she TRIED to resolve it in private and was refused access. Public shaming wasn't her first option that she took.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

That wasn't a community though; that was an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (racism). I doubt that the people saying all of those things were huge Miss America fans for the most part.

Oh really? And what makes you qualified to determine what's a community and what's not?

I hereby declare that all the hate the journalist got was not from gamers, but from an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (Transphobia). In fact, I doubt most of those people on Twitter game at all.

 

[LordJim]

People, we have to remember that she TRIED to resolve it in private and was refused access. Public shaming wasn't her first option that she took.

Aside from apparently people at the show floor not revealing presenter's name, I do not remember that.
Were there private messages to the presenter, Eurogamer expo's organizers, Microsoft etc before that? I do not remember that being mentioned.

 

[Nephtis]

Aside from apparently people at the show floor not revealing presenter's name, I do not remember that.
Were there private messages to the presenter, Eurogamer expo's organizers, Microsoft etc before that? I do not remember that being mentioned.

Not to mention that at this point, we can't say for a fact that she actually did do that. Just like the other stuff she backtracked on.

 

[The Cowboy]

People, we have to remember that she TRIED to resolve it in private and was refused access. Public shaming wasn't her first option that she took.

And people have to remember we only have her word on how she tried to resolve it privately, despite what she said we have no idea if she said "I want to speak to the presenter please" and that's it, or if she went into full detail and said "I want to complain about the presenter, I'm a woman and he referred to me as a man and that person, it made me feel small, terrible and humiliated - this isn't right and I would like if possible to speak to him about it".

I'd bet the handlers get a lot of requests to speak to the presenters and they all get turned away, due to her changes in story I just don't think we can take her word on how she initially tried to complain about it.

But lets say she did try the latter way, you don't go from a first option of reasonable request of complaint (to speak to the presenter), to a second option of public naming/shaming, lying about what they said, affecting someone's career and opening them up to a lot of hate messages (what she actually did).

 

[A Link to the Past]

Oh really? And what makes you qualified to determine what's a community and what's not?

I hereby declare that all the hate the journalist got was not from gamers, but from an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (Transphobia). In fact, I doubt most of those people on Twitter game at all.

We can observe a history of misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, and racism in the gaming community. There's documented evidence of active participation by the gaming community in all of these things. I've provided numerous examples. Care to show that a strong connection exists between the racists re: Miss America?

 

[A Link to the Past]

And people have to remember we only have her word on how she tried to resolve it privately, despite what she said we have no idea if she said "I want to speak to the presenter please" and that's it, or if she went into full detail and said "I want to complain about the presenter, I'm a woman and he referred to me as a man and that person, it made me feel small, terrible and humiliated - this isn't right and I would like if possible to speak to him about it".

I'd bet the handlers get a lot of requests to speak to the presenters and they all get turned away, due to her changes in story I just don't think we can take her word on how she initially tried to complain about it.

But lets say she did try the latter way, you don't go from a first option of reasonable request of complaint (to speak to the presenter), to a second option of public naming/shaming, lying about what they said, affecting someone's career and opening them up to a lot of hate messages (what she actually did).

When you are feeling upset, yeah, you kind of do. A person who was just shunted and shamed is not going to have the best judgment in a situation like this often.

 

[Metalmurphy]

That wasn't a community though; that was an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (racism). I doubt that the people saying all of those things were huge Miss America fans for the most part.

We can observe a history of misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, and racism in the gaming community. There's documented evidence of active participation by the gaming community in all of these things. I've provided numerous examples. Care to show that a strong connection exists between the racists re: Miss America?

You're pathetic. The "gaming community" is vast and encompasses all types of personalities and ideologies, as such you are bound to get racists/homophobia/etc, this doesn't mean you can lump everyone else in the same group and claim there is a problem with the "community". There's a problem with people, and those people also play games.

 

[erawsd]

That wasn't a community though; that was an uncoordinated group of people with a similar interest (racism). I doubt that the people saying all of those things were huge Miss America fans for the most part.

What do you think gamers are? This isn't the NRA or NAACP, it couldn't be anymore "uncoordinated".

There is no reason to believe those people weren't fans of Miss America.

 

[polyh3dron]

We can observe a history of misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, and racism in the gaming community. There's documented evidence of active participation by the gaming community in all of these things. I've provided numerous examples. Care to show that a strong connection exists between the racists re: Miss America?

 

[erawsd]

People, we have to remember that she TRIED to resolve it in private and was refused access. Public shaming wasn't her first option that she took.

Security has a job to do and it doesn't involve allowing angry attendees to confront presenters. The MS representative did offer an apology on his behalf.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Gamers are a far tighter group of people I can only assume than watchers of Miss America. Can we assume there to be a good reason why you don't hear about the "Miss America community" than you do the "gaming community"? Miss America's negative reception was an example of people making no attempt to conceal their identities making severely racist comments, and certainly not nearly as organized as I often see similar people in the gaming community act.

 

[SmokyDave]

We can observe a history of misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, and racism in the gaming community. There's documented evidence of active participation by the gaming community in all of these things. I've provided numerous examples. Care to show that a strong connection exists between the racists re: Miss America?

I'm flabbergasted that you continue to suggest that these things are somehow more prevalent in the gaming community without any shred of evidence whatsoever.

You could be talking about pretty much any community, even communities that predominantly exist to fight one or more of the things you've listed.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So to show that a problem exists in the gaming community - and I can cite several people I know who have specifically stated that their opposition is due to not wanting this "element" in their community or in their games - is not to show that a problem exists in the gaming community? Honestly, it's amazing how defensive gamers can twist "there's a problem in the gaming community" to "boy gamers sure are a virus in the world". Should I respond to the next time this exact situation happens to someone else by not exclaiming how much I cannot stand the portion of the gaming community that is doing that? Is that a thing that somehow makes the problem better - by pretending that the problem is nonexistent? Honestly, it sounds like you're more upset by people suggesting that you're in a community that also has a lot of assholes than the assholes themselves.

 

[bj00rn_]

Gotta love the sense of entitlement PC warriors have in this forum. People have to walk on a minefield not to offend them and be labeled sexist or bigot or worse but the warriors can call a people manchildren and make accusations against anyone they want.

So this is about PC gamers on GAF now..? I honestly didn't see that one coming in a thread about transgenders..

*mind blown*

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm flabbergasted that you continue to suggest that these things are somehow more prevalent in the gaming community without any shred of evidence whatsoever.

You could be talking about pretty much any community, even communities that predominantly exist to fight one or more of the things you've listed.

Point taken. The fact that I can cite multiple corporations that encourage all of these things - the fact that I can cite numerous examples of vocal misogynistic campaigns in response to a SINGLE person on the Internet - the fact that I can cite numerous examples of some of the best-selling video games fostering the shittiest gamers around - is totally not me presenting a shred of evidence whatsoever.

 

[erawsd]

Gamers are a far tighter group of people I can only assume than watchers of Miss America. Can we assume there to be a good reason why you don't hear about the "Miss America community" than you do the "gaming community"? Miss America's negative reception was an example of people making no attempt to conceal their identities making severely racist comments, and certainly not nearly as organized as I often see similar people in the gaming community act.

Because its probably is very small community. There are hundreds of millions of purported "gamers". What I find interesting is that gamers are never given the same respect as other communities. you will never hear "TV community", "music community", or "book readers"... because those are ridiculous broad statements that encompoasses a massive chunk of the worlds population. Those groups are defined more narrowly by their tastes.

So yes, there is a "Miss America community".

 

[polyh3dron]

Point taken. The fact that I can cite multiple corporations that encourage all of these things - the fact that I can cite numerous examples of vocal misogynistic campaigns in response to a SINGLE person on the Internet - the fact that I can cite numerous examples of some of the best-selling video games fostering the shittiest gamers around - is totally not me presenting a shred of evidence whatsoever.

So you're basing your argument on Anita Sarkeesian backlash?

http://youtu.be/gcPIu3sDkEw

There are lots of legit reasons to criticize Anita's video series that don't make the critics sexist.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you're basing your argument on Anita Sarkeesian backlash?

In addition to Blizzard finding harassment against homosexuals so prevalent that it was easier to ban mention of homosexuality in WoW.

Because its probably is very small community. There are hundreds of millions of purported "gamers". What I find interesting is that gamers are never given the same respect as other communities. you will never hear "TV community", "music community", or "book readers"... because those are ridiculous broad statements that encompoasses a massive chunk of the worlds population. Those groups are defined more narrowly by their tastes.

So yes, there is a "Miss America community".

No TV community? You srs? While you make a point with book-reading and music-listening, TV watching is such a general community by design that it's definitely a community in the same way "gaming" is a community, arguably more so. No one's just a "Breaking Bad watcher" or a "South Park watcher". The common perception is that a lot of people who watch TV regularly do so to watch TV rather than to catch a specific show. This is arguably less prevalent than what it was - what with the Internet and all - but it's still a thing. Gaming is viewed in the same way, where the communities are generally.. well, general. The Nintendo gamers, the CoD gamers, the MMO gamers, etc.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Look, I think everyone just needs to stop being racist for a second and hear me out.

Just because you're a PC gamer doesn't mean you're a homosexual and just because youtube is on the internet doesn't make it chauvinist. It also doesn't matter if console gamers are 12. Everybody was 12 at least once. I was 12 for most of this week with GTA:Online.

Transgendered women deserve just as much equality and respect as regular women, not more, which is why the ratio of kitchen jokes between them has me fearful that the culinary skills of the transgendered female is being unfairly discriminated against.

Sometimes its best to just hug everybody and let them know that it doesn't matter if they're ugly or like Justin Beiber. Or if they enjoy android/ios games. We're all humans anyway.

Except for PC gamers.

Spoiler

See: "GODS"

In conclusion, I wouldn't recommend bestiality, but sometimes its all you have available and you should seize every opportunity in life when it presents itself because you never know when the next Final Fantasy is coming out. With FF's famously long 24 hour opening sequences, you could easily pass away trying to marathon to the second level.

I love you all.

-GrizzleBoy

 

[Chû Totoro]

Doesn't a transgender person could also be upset to be called a woman?

I don't really get it because I wouldn't know what to say too... Mr, Miss, Young Man, Yougn Lady?

What should people say then? I think the journalist should just have said when being called that she was a woman... this can be said in a discrete way or just while presenting herself.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Doesn't a transgender person could also be upset to be called a woman?

I don't really get it because I wouldn't know what to say too... Mr, Miss, Young Man, Yougn Lady?

What should people say then? I think the journalist should just have said when being called that she was a woman... this can be said in a discrete way or just while presenting herself.

A transgender person who identifies as a man would be upset if they were called a woman, yes.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

So it's looking like the whole thing was an honest mistake?

 

[GrizzleBoy]

So it's looking like the whole thing was an honest mistake?

The comedian not addressing her in a way she wanted was maybe a mistake.

The lady making up words he didn't say? Intentional.

The lady deciding to attempt to publicly sully the comedians name? Intentional.

The lady posting a blog/article which quietly backtracks on the accusations and focuses on the hate mail she got to sway the point away from the fact that she told untruths (even though those untruths also caused the comedian to receive hate mail for things he didn't say)? Intentional.

 

[erawsd]

No TV community? You srs? While you make a point with book-reading and music-listening, TV watching is such a general community by design that it's definitely a community in the same way "gaming" is a community, arguably more so. No one's just a "Breaking Bad watcher" or a "South Park watcher". The common perception is that a lot of people who watch TV regularly do so to watch TV rather than to catch a specific show. This is arguably less prevalent than what it was - what with the Internet and all - but it's still a thing. Gaming is viewed in the same way, where the communities are generally.. well, general. The Nintendo gamers, the CoD gamers, the MMO gamers, etc.

What I'm talking about is the way that people, generally, refer to these and make statements that apply to them as a whole. Rarely will anyone, but gamers themselves, distinguish MMO gamers from Nintendo gamers, ect. Those types of wide reaching statements are almost never made about the entirety of the TV watching population.

 

[Chû Totoro]

A transgender person who identifies as a man would be upset if they were called a woman, yes.

So that's what I'm saying sometimes it's not easy because you don't want to hurt people and looking feminine doesn't mean that you're a girl, a boy, or gay. It's just that you look feminine.

So imo the journalist shouldn't make so much noise about it because it doesn't seem like people where making jokes about her or else... of course it made everyone a little uncomfortable but it's not because people were bad.

If she gently said to the spoke person that he misunderstand and that she was a woman like saying "hey hey I'm here boy. Lady here !"

Spoiler

edit : ladyboy joke not intentional

It would have made some people laugh but in a good way (I think...) because the laughs would have been after the spoke person's misunderstanding.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

I think we're missing the heartwarming story here about how white knighting transcends traditional gender conventions.

I don't have any sympathy for hyperbole, distortion of the facts, or playing the victim card- especially if that's your tact whenever someone calls out your bullshit. Freaking out over a faux pas and publicly trumping up your accusations does a disservice to anyone who's been on the receiving end of truly malicious intent.

 

[BanGy.nz]

So you're basing your argument on Anita Sarkeesian backlash?

http://youtu.be/gcPIu3sDkEw

There are lots of legit reasons to criticize Anita's video series that don't make the critics sexist.

That isn't one of them.

A joint statement from Laura and Millward should be up within the hour.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you're basing your argument on Anita Sarkeesian backlash?

http://youtu.be/gcPIu3sDkEw

There are lots of legit reasons to criticize Anita's video series that don't make the critics sexist.

My point stated early on is not that they were critical of her, or even that they specifically targeted and threatened her. It's the fact that any discussion after that about women in video games, misogyny in video games, etc. became a shithole because of it.

Also, Grizzly...

There's a big difference between the two sets of hate mail. She received hate mail not because she made a mistake, but because she was transgender. Anyone who accused her of lying were not doing so because of any prior knowledge but rather bigotry. His hate mail was from people who found what he was purported to have said disgusting. No matter whether she was lying or not, at the time when she portrayed herself as a victim, people targeted her and victimized her further.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think we're missing the heartwarming story here about how white knighting transcends traditional gender conventions.

I don't have any sympathy for hyperbole, distortion of the facts, or playing the victim card- especially if that's your tact whenever someone calls out your bullshit. Freaking out over a faux pas and publicly trumping up your accusations does a disservice to anyone who's been on the receiving end of truly malicious intent.

Assuming that she was intentionally lying about what happened, that still doesn't excuse the hate mail she received. IIRC, the hate mail was due to her being transgender and not due to her making it up, right?

 

[GrizzleBoy]

My point stated early on is not that they were critical of her, or even that they specifically targeted and threatened her. It's the fact that any discussion after that about women in video games, misogyny in video games, etc. became a shithole because of it.

Also, Grizzly...

There's a big difference between the two sets of hate mail. She received hate mail not because she made a mistake, but because she was transgender. Anyone who accused her of lying were not doing so because of any prior knowledge but rather bigotry. His hate mail was from people who found what he was purported to have said disgusting. No matter whether she was lying or not, at the time when she portrayed herself as a victim, people targeted her and victimized her further.

If you're going to type out a blog detailing how upset you are that you got hate mail after you intentionally falsify info in order to publicly ruin another persons reputation/career opportunities and also cause someone else to receive hate mail...

I don't really care about your feelings tbh.

Sorry.


She cried wolf, so the wolf came running and bit her in the ass.

 

[A Link to the Past]

If you're going to type out a blog detailing how you got hate mail after you intentionally falsify info in order to publicly ruin another persons reputation/career opportunities and also cause someone else to receive hate mail...

I don't really care about your feelings tbh.

Sorry.

That's not the point though. Throughout the entire thread I've not defended anyone for lying nor have I criticized the comedian. What I have done is pointed out that this happens every time regardless of what happens. She wasn't receiving hate mail for lying, she was receiving hate mail for being transgender.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Assuming that she was intentionally lying about what happened, that still doesn't excuse the hate mail she received. IIRC, the hate mail was due to her being transgender and not due to her making it up, right?

Nothing excuses hateful behavior, but all that was completely avoidable if she hadn't drawn all sorts of attention to herself in a fundamentally dishonest fashion. Besides, it's the internet. The fact that some anonymous assholes react in ignorance doesn't absolve her of being foolish in handling the situation. She doesn't deserve defending any more than she deserves small minded bigots and trolls casting stones on twitter.

 

[Seeds]

That's not the point though. Throughout the entire thread I've not defended anyone for lying nor have I criticized the comedian. What I have done is pointed out that this happens every time regardless of what happens. She wasn't receiving hate mail for lying, she was receiving hate mail for being transgender.

For trying to ruin someones career, she would have received hate mail regardless of whether she was transgendered or not. It's just that people go after what they think will hurt you the most.

The comedian also received hate mail, which goes to show, that people will cling to anything to attack someone.

 

[BanGy.nz]

She doesn't deserve defending any more than she deserves small minded bigots and trolls casting stones on twitter.

Surely she deserves defending from the hoard of small minded bigots? I mean we can at least all agree on that no?

 

[A Link to the Past]

For trying to ruin someones career, she would have received hate mail regardless of whether she was transgendered or not. It's just that people go after what they think will hurt you the most.

The comedian also received hate mail, which goes to show, that people will cling to anything to attack someone.

You're missing the point though. If it was her receiving hate mail after it was discovered that she fabricated her claims and the hate mail pertained to her lies, it would be one thing. However, she was being attacked due to the fact that she was transgender before people knew that she fabricated what she said. The comedian received hate mail for things that people believed him to have said. That is the point - he was being attacked for what he (purportedly) did while she was being attacked for what she was.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

For trying to ruin someones career, she would have received hate mail regardless of whether she was transgendered or not. It's just that people go after what they think will hurt you the most.

The comedian also received hate mail, which goes to show, that people will cling to anything to attack someone.

Exactly.

Asshole who want to be assholes will say whatever will dig in hardest to upset you. Because they're assholes.

But that's just empty bullcrap. You don't know who they are in person. You'll never see them. Tomorrow you wont remember who they are and vice versa.

What is actually a real life problem now is her perceived journalistic integrity and the comedians reputation and employability.

Real problems > Internet problems.

 

[Seeds]

You're missing the point though. If it was her receiving hate mail after it was discovered that she fabricated her claims and the hate mail pertained to her lies, it would be one thing. However, she was being attacked due to the fact that she was transgender before people knew that she fabricated what she said. The comedian received hate mail for things that people believed him to have said. That is the point - he was being attacked for what he (purportedly) did while she was being attacked for what she was.

And he was being attacked even before her statement was even confirmed.

 

[BanGy.nz]

"It's just the internet" isn't a reasonable excuse for the transphobic abuse Laura has received, that abusive and toxic element that exists in most online communities needs to be destroyed.

Please stop defending these people.

 

[DragonSworne]

You're missing the point though. If it was her receiving hate mail after it was discovered that she fabricated her claims and the hate mail pertained to her lies, it would be one thing. However, she was being attacked due to the fact that she was transgender before people knew that she fabricated what she said. The comedian received hate mail for things that people believed him to have said. That is the point - he was being attacked for what he (purportedly) did while she was being attacked for what she was.

Is there evidence of this hate mail?

 

[itsgreen]

"It's just the internet" isn't a reasonable excuse for the transphobic abuse Laura has received, that abusive and toxic element that exists in most online communities needs to be destroyed.

Please stop defending these people.

I don't think anybody is defending them. I think people just *shrug* *internet* *shit happens* *not much we can do about individual assholes*

 

[BanGy.nz]

Is there evidence of this hate mail?

Yes, her twitter account.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Surely she deserves defending from the hoard of small minded bigots? I mean we can at least all agree on that no?

Not especially. People are constantly making hurtful and inflammatory comments on the internet. You'd think a journalist would understand that and know take the peanut gallery for what they're worth. Bigots are going to be bigots I don't endorse bigotry, but she drew attention to herself, posted her own private information publicly, demonized and floated the name of some guy with a phony account of events so people would perceive him unquestioningly as the aggressor, etc., etc. Everything that followed that is wholly predictable. If you thrust yourself in the spotlight seeking attention don't be surprised when it's not the kind you'd like.

 

[Pinko Marx]

"It's just the internet" isn't a reasonable excuse for the transphobic abuse Laura has received, that abusive and toxic element that exists in most online communities needs to be destroyed.

Please stop defending these people.

Theres really not a whole lot you can do about assholes being assholes. You can preach on your soapbox all you want but mean people will still continue to exist and say mean things. Theres no destroying it.
You can try to educate some folks and turn them over but its pretty much the equivalent of trying to drain the ocean will a straw.