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ID@Xbox launch clause has dev signing exclusive deal with Sony in order to be on XB1

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Am I missing the big deal here?

Microsoft wants the games to be released on the xbox first, or at minimum, at the same time as the ps4 version, right? Developers are choosing to develop the ps4 version first and not release an xbox version? If they have limited resources what is stopping them from developing the xbox version first and then the ps4 version? It sounds like if they release first on ps4 they can't release on xbox? So better to release on xbox first if you want it on both consoles, right??

What's wrong is I takes the choice away from the developers. How is it 'self publishing' when you can't choose when and where to publish? This is clearly MS trying to claw back being late on the indie scene by basically forcing devs to hold up publishing on PS4 and lead on Xbox first.

If Sony have a more open policy with no such requirements, they risk being screwed over by this because the safe thing for devs to do is comply. And yet Sony has been more proactive in support indies recently.
 

mocoworm

Member
Hey I can post irrelevant shit too!

Nobody here are talking about MS asking for exclusivity.

You're so quick to post anything to defend Microsoft, you don't even read the thread or what we're discussing in here. Day one parity is the problem.

I love that you completely ignored the entire thread. Day one parity is exactly what this entire thread is about. You really need to lighten your agenda dude.

What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.
 
So this problem will be rectified in the future after ID@xbox has become more prevalent and developers are aware of the terms?

so it's a moot point in 6 months to a year. sucks for now. not a big deal later

How it will be rectified?

What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.

The problem is that this means that the loophole is closed. Before, up to know, if you already had a deal with Sony you could bypass this parity policy. Moving forward this is not the case. It is Release at the same time, first on xbox or not on our platform. This "case by case" basis opens them to basically deny indie developers the right to release a game on any other platform before xbox if they feel like it.
 
How it will be rectified?

Well you were saying that these developers may have already started working on the ps4 version so they would have to put that aside to work on the xbox version. Well now that they know that they'll know to do the xbox version first. It affects the game they're working on now, but not future games.
 
What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.

It's the same shit. If MS wasn't so far up its own ass, there would be no reason to work on a case-by-case basis.
 

Dizzy

Banned
People not seeing this as a big deal...

What is the indie meant to do. Sit and wait on the ps4 version and a big payday, just because microsoft forces them to then work on the xbone version? I'd be pissed off to if I made a game and couldn't sell it for months.

Or develop for xbox one first, which wouod solve the issue but then A) it's giving into Microsofts bully demands and B) it looks like ps4 might have a much bigger audience this gen and indies get treated better on ps, I'd prefer to launch on there first too.
 

Yjynx

Member
perhaps the best thing that we could do is give ms a taste of their own medicine.

I won't buy any indie game from their place as long as this policies exist. If no one buy it there's no point in releasing it on their platform isn't it?
 
What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.
I dunno, maybe because it completely missed the point of the conversation going on in this thread?

Holy crap, this is disgusting. Good job showing that indie love, MS. I can see many day 1 patches in the future if this parity thing is what it seems.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.

Not many devs have already released on PS4. So anyone deep into development but not yet delivered will be impacted.
 
perhaps the best thing that we could do is give ms a taste of their own medicine.

I won't buy any indie game from their place as long as this policies exist. If no one buy it there's no point in releasing it on their platform isn't it?

Microsoft wouldn't give a shit. Indie developers certainly would.

The only way for MS to 'taste their own medicine' would be not to buy an Xbox and pick up a PS4/WiiU/SteamMachine, etc.
 

Wereroku

Member
Well you were saying that these developers may have already started working on the ps4 version so they would have to put that aside to work on the xbox version. Well now that they know that they'll know to do the xbox version first. It affects the game they're working on now, but not future games.

It will still affect future games because microsoft controls the release date and cost for games on their platform still. So if you get the done at the same time and Sony/Nintendo will let you release it say Feb 21 but microsoft says no we want to release in march you are screwed. Also if you want to release it for 15 dollars on all platforms but microsoft says we are going to charge 20 so we want you to have parity with that at release so it has to be 20 on all platforms or it won't be released on xbo. How does that sound if you wanted to dev with them?
 
Well you were saying that these developers may have already started working on the ps4 version so they would have to put that aside to work on the xbox version. Well now that they know that they'll know to do the xbox version first. It affects the game they're working on now, but not future games.

What part of this is not an option for indies, most of them, is that hard to understand? Should indies be punished because they want to work on a PS4 ver first?
 

jim2011

Member
perhaps the best thing that we could do is give ms a taste of their own medicine.

I won't buy any indie game from their place as long as this policies exist. If no one buy it there's no point in releasing it on their platform isn't it?

Now you're just screwing the indie developers...
 

Yjynx

Member
Microsoft wouldn't give a shit. Indie developers certainly would.

The only way for MS to 'taste their own medicine' would be not to buy an Xbox and pick up a PS4/WiiU/SteamMachine, etc.

of course they will. it gives them bad reputation. and that's something that they desperately trying to salvage now. so let us do our part.

Now you're just screwing the indie developers...

not really there're many place they could still sell it. and eventually they will cave in too.


just imagine in the long run. You got PS4/Vita/WiiU/Steam version ready but for some reason your X1 version rejected and asked to be redo by ms...so you will delay all of them for just one version?
 
What point have I missed or how is my post irrelevant?

It was an official statement from MS saying they will work with developers on a case by case basis if they have already released or have timed exclusivity.

How many indies have already been released on PS4?

Only 6 games. ( Warframe, War Thunder, Contrast, Tiny Brains, BL: Retribution, Super Motherload )

Most indies releasing for PS4 don't actually have a timed exclusivity deal, they simply never had the opportunity to self-publish prior to ID@Xbox. ( which was why Vambleer immediately signed a timed exclusivity deal just to circumvent the restriction )

That window of opportunity has closed.

So basically the two dozen or so yet-to-be released indies who may eventually intend to release an XB1 port... now are facing a dillema where they may have to delay their PS4 version of the game... else the game may never be allowed on Xbox.

There's also the question of whether or not some of those devs would be allowed on the ID@Xbox programme, which is a requirement for self-publishing. Some of the upcoming PS4 indies in development are basically made by Kickstarter guys without any prior experience of releasing any indie hits.
 

PhatSaqs

Banned
Since it seems tied to the free dev tools, MS should just allow those indies who don't want to adhere to the parity clause to borrow the tools and pay later like Sony does.
 
What part of this is not an option for indies, most of them, is that hard to understand? Should indies be punished because they want to work on a PS4 ver first?


The really small devs are probably only making a game for the PS4 because Adam Boyes hand delivered a dev kit to them.

We'll have to wait and see how this pans out, but I would have thought MS might have learned something after their previous heavy handedness.
 

aly

Member
Since it seems tied to the free dev tools, MS should just allow those indies who don't want to adhere to the parity clause to borrow the tools and pay later like Sony does.

Maybe that would help. I think the big problem is that we haven't heard of any other way to self publish.
 

keit4

Banned
Since it seems tied to the free dev tools, MS should just allow those indies who don't want to adhere to the parity clause to borrow the tools and pay later like Sony does.

Yup. Do you want tools for free? Then play with our rules. Do you want to pay for our tools? Ok, you can do what you want.
 

VariantX

Member
That sucks to hear. I thought MS learned from the moves sony and nintendo made regarding indies. It's basically tying their hands just because they were late to the party and didn't have their house in order. Telling people who probably cant afford to sit on software thats ready to go for other platorms is silly
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
Just read the entire thread. I'm not pleased as a consumer.
Thanks to the indie devs that have chimed in already, I appreciate your post(s) on this matter.
 
The really small devs are probably only making a game for the PS4 because Adam Boyes hand delivered a dev kit to them.

We'll have to wait and see how this pans out, but I would have thought MS might have learned something after their previous heavy handedness.

True, but as of now there are no strings attached with that. Besides having the game on PS4.
 
It will still affect future games because microsoft controls the release date and cost for games on their platform still. So if you get the done at the same time and Sony/Nintendo will let you release it say Feb 21 but microsoft says no we want to release in march you are screwed. Also if you want to release it for 15 dollars on all platforms but microsoft says we are going to charge 20 so we want you to have parity with that at release so it has to be 20 on all platforms or it won't be released on xbo. How does that sound if you wanted to dev with them?

Microsoft controls the release date and price. Does Sony and Nintendo not? Can a developer say I want to release this game next week at $5 and they have the final decision when working with Nintendo and Sony but not with Microsoft?
 
This (former) policy sounds like more Matrick-era leftovers. The fact that MS changed the policy so quickly is evident that they already know they are behind and are eager to catch up.
 

Faustek

Member
I would like to point out that "Indie-Guru" Shahid Kamal waved the "deal" he had gotten for one month exclusivity for Lone Survivor DC within a heartbeat when they asked. And since he has been very vocal, probably more than he should be, in the defence of keeping "indies" "indie".

Don't mean to fellate the man, he does move the Kinsey scale thou, but everyone in the industry should take a long hard look at him and learn how you should "deal" with people. That papers are just that, nothing important. What's important is mutual respect and not some retarded company lawyers papers.

But then again I said MS would screw everyone over if they ever got the chance and it seems as they still refuse to learn.

So indies, feed me something else than the triple A bs on Steam/Sony/GoG/Desura/etc and I'll buy it. Heck I'll even buy your dlc. Hell I'll even double dip in some cases where there is a Vita version.
 

jim2011

Member
Microsoft controls the release date and price. Does Sony and Nintendo not? Can a developer say I want to release this game next week at $5 and they have the final decision when working with Nintendo and Sony but not with Microsoft?


Is that even still true? Yes they did on 360 but considering the details of this program aren't available to us, I don't know if I believe it's the same policy (price, release date).
 

Faustek

Member
Microsoft controls the release date and price. Does Sony and Nintendo not? Can a developer say I want to release this game next week at $5 and they have the final decision when working with Nintendo and Sony but not with Microsoft?

The price thing is tricky, Mojang refuses to answer it. XBLA exclusive indies say that the XB team just "recommend" a price setting, nothing heavy handed, Zeboyd hasn't shared and neither has anyone else.

But the date is probably clear cut


Indie: we're done
Console: we're mastering/QA, now we're done, so next store update?
Indie: ayupp

Anything else than that and its effing stupid.

And remember that it needs to get rated so the biggest time waster is probably big brother.
 
Well, if you can't afford a PS4 devkit is a good deal, because you are not going to release a PS4 version of the game any time soon. Also, if we are talking about losing money, burning bridges is the worst decision you can make.

If you want to develop for the XB1 you will have to play under Microsoft's rules, but those rules are just asking for a simultaneous release (or a XB1 exclusivity for some time). The only thing you can't do is to release the game first on PS4. For new games (i mean games which development hasn't started yet) this rules won't harm the indie developers, only the PS4 users (i wonder why the most people complaining in this thread are Sony fans... oh wait!). So, from a indie dev standpoint, this is not a bad deal at all.
Cognitive dissonance at work, folks.
 

satam55

Banned
So, can we confirm that all those self-published indie games that Sony announced at E3 & Gamescom were gonna be on PS4 before the end of the year have all been mostly delayed because of the ID@Xbox policy?
 
This policy gets really rotten even after the early indie games are out. Lets say an indie group wants to make a game. Sony quickly supports them and loans them a devkit. They're well on their way to making this game. Microsoft however does not seem interested in picking up their game at the moment. Upon closer to release, the indie game gets some noticable excitement from fans (think Octodad). Microsoft notices this and now sees it as something they should get on Xbox One. They sign them on as an Xbox One game now and give them a free dev kit. But now that nearly completed PS4 game must be halted for the Xbox One version to be completed.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
A little more to the ID@Xbox over at Gamasutra:

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/206362/Developers_weigh_in_with_early_IDXbox_impressions.php

Other developers that we talked to noted that Microsoft is still very much evolving the ID@Xbox program as it goes along, working out the kinks depending on what developers say.

"The ID@XBox program is so new, and they are still figuring out a lot of it on the fly," says Iron Galaxy's Dave Lang. "But all signs point to it being a really great option for indie publishing."

"Probably the thing I'm happiest with so far is that I've gotten to deal with Charla a lot directly, and he definitely gets what indie devs want ID@XBox to be," he adds.

Indeed, much of the correspondence we received back was positive, including from CryEngine studio Crytek. Carl Jones, director of business development at Crytek, told Gamasutra that its own dealings with ID@Xbox will allow the company to publish its own games on Xbox One, while also providing opportunities for third-party developers to self-publish CryEngine games through ID@Xbox.

It's worth noting, too, that this initial announcement was far from the only 50 studios that Microsoft has onboard. As noted on the unofficial Xbox One Indie Devs Facebook page, Michelle Juett Silva from Ska Studios confirmed that her company is also developing for ID@Xbox, but was left out of the announcement.

And plenty of other developers have responded to say they are onboard too, although it's questionable what "onboard" actually means -- many studios appear to be claiming they have been accepted by ID@Xbox, but haven't actually received dev kits, and are instead waiting until Microsoft updates retail Xbox One consoles for development use.

More at the link. So weird to see Crytek paired up with these devs, hah.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
Jesus christ why do some people in this thread continue to defend this policy? We've had several indie dev's chime in and confirm this is BAD policy for them. Unless you
A: Have a monetary investment in MS or
B: Are a raging fanboy that likes MS's bullying practices for whatever reason
There is absolutely no reason to defend this arbitrary term. It's a BAD policy designed to pressure indies into timed exclusivity with MS for no extra gain. It's bad for gamers and it's bad for indies. Period.
 
And what happened to minecraft?

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/minecraft-not-launching-with-playstation-4/1100-6416102/

No reason for the delay. They didn't sign for an exclusive ps4 launch (The game was probably just finished early) so the loophole was most likely not available.

Woah woah woah... Hold up
So it could be a possibility of why Mincraft was delayed

(if this is why they got delayed)

Then I am just really disgusted with this company

Brute Force and Blinx be damned you will not get back to my good side MS
:mad:

Edit: Okay maybe Brute Force
 

FranXico

Member
I hope more devs say "well we're going to release when we're ready on PS4. We'll release on Xbox One when you stop being idiots."

How do Xbox One owners read tweets like this and think nothing is wrong with this policy?

Microsoft just handed out to Sony a couple of full exclusives that Sony was expecting to be timed exclusives before.

This is harming indies the most.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I hope more devs say "well we're going to release when we're ready on PS4. We'll release on Xbox One when you stop being idiots."

How do Xbox One owners read tweets like this and think nothing is wrong with this policy?

Corporate dick sucking takes a lot of concentration.
 

Linkified

Member
I hope more devs say "well we're going to release when we're ready on PS4. We'll release on Xbox One when you stop being idiots."

How do Xbox One owners read tweets like this and think nothing is wrong with this policy?

Probably the same as reading quotes like this:

"The ID@XBox program is so new, and they are still figuring out a lot of it on the fly," says Iron Galaxy's Dave Lang. "But all signs point to it being a really great option for indie publishing."

"Probably the thing I'm happiest with so far is that I've gotten to deal with Charla a lot directly, and he definitely gets what indie devs want ID@XBox to be," he adds.
 
Witch Beam dev not happy with the rules.


I'm assuming they phoned up Charla then? It seems Charla is very willing to help people out on case-by-case basis, wouldn't hurt if they haven't.

edit: My comments make it seem like calling the man is easy, I realize it isn't but surely they can reach out to him (maybe on twitter) and I'm sure he will talk with them.

Not like this solves the problem though.
 
I hope more devs say "well we're going to release when we're ready on PS4. We'll release on Xbox One when you stop being idiots."

How do Xbox One owners read tweets like this and think nothing is wrong with this policy?

Because "Why they just, you know... put the ps4 ver on hold and you know... release on the one first? That would solve everything."
 

Nafai1123

Banned
Probably the same as reading quotes like this:

Maybe they should be reading this instead.

As for those tweets earlier tonight, I posted that because I genuinely had a good talk with Chris Charla. It wasn't awkward or upset, just congratulations with the announcements and some talk about the whole thing that went down. After that, we switched back to talking future plans and Nuclear Throne. It was super pleasant, especially considering we had just semi-broken NDA (apparently Microsoft had already mentioned launch parity before, so I guess legally we're fine anyway) and told them how that deal came to be.

If Microsoft had thrown any threats around, you'd be reading about those in the press right now. We really don't take lightly to legal nonsense like that. If we gave at all about Microsoft getting upset we would not have mentioned that story at all, but we don't, really. We care about letting the indie developer scene know what string are attached to which deal. If Sony ever turns sour, we'll let you know. If OUYA is being a pain, we'll let you know. We like transparency. Our whole involvement at ID@Xbox is trying to go through the gauntlet to let developers know what's what. So far, with the exception of the parity clause, our experiences have been quite positive.

You got to hand Chris that compared to the situation a year ago it's sort of amazing that at this point we're talking specific points of improvement over 'well, Microsoft is anti-indie'. The thing is that Chris Charla genuinely cares about indie games. We've been quite happy with how things at ID@Xbox are going so far, we received our dev-kits last week and the team has been super responsive and pro-active. We obviously don't have the level of trust with them that we have with Sony (and it might be that we never will, because we really love Shuhei, Adam, Shahid, Nick and their teams at Sony) - but we do trust that the folks at the ID@Xbox program are trying to do the right thing here. We don't know what caused this particular clause in the contract, but we do believe (and this is based on nothing) that if they could get rid of it, they would.

We'll continue to argue with Microsoft to try and convince them to drop launch parity, because it'd be a shame if we could only release future titles through ID@Xbox through a contractual exception to be negotiated on a case-per-case basis. It would be stupid if games have to be delayed on one platform because of another. It is wrong for a platform to think that they have the position to affect, by default, how someone does business with another platform. If somehow, they can be convinced to drop that, that'd remove one of the really problematic aspects of the program.

In the meanwhile, we're also just really happy that Nuclear Throne is doing so well on Steam Early Access and working with the amazing team at Sony to get LUFTRAUSERS to Vita and PS3 and Nuclear Throne to PS4 and Vita. For Nuclear Throne, it's nice that we now have the time to develop the game properly for all platforms, including Xbox One.

In the end, it does seem that openness is always the best option, but instead of simply slamming ID@Xbox as a bad program for this one clause, we like to see if we can improve those sort of flaws from the inside. As you noticed we do feel we have the moral obligation to be open about our experiences if those affect others in any way. In the end, we do want to see ID@Xbox succeed. We want games on there to be successful. But we don't want them to be successful because of Microsoft, we want them to be successful for the indie scene. The more available development platforms that treat indie developers as a serious part of their business, the better. While there are some flaws left, ID@Xbox is a really, really big step in that direction.

Basically, the reason I'm typing this is because ID@Xbox isn't "all bad" and I just felt it'd be fair to at least offer that perspective for a moment.

That's all for fireside talking with grandpa Rami about indie games today, I guess. I'd love to spend some more time on GAF, but making games as a two-man team sort of confines me to one social medium (and that ended up being my Twitter) and my metric ton of e-mail. If anybody has any questions or so, feel free to throw them that way. We love this place and super-thank you for all the support over the years <3
 

Jimaha

Banned
Dude seriously? So you just care about yourself and even thou you admit that it sucks you're OK with it?

I so want to be bunkmates with you if i ever go to prison so when the other bigger and meaner inmates comes to give us a cockmeat sandwich I can just point to you because you're so totally OK with bigger entities throwing their weight around. Yeah you'll probably cry a bit if you don't get the biggest and meanest inmate but hey you can probably work you're way up there.

See you in jail mate.

I don't see the benefit of trying to construct a sane argument since you clearly refused to read/understand the posts before you but hey I work hard and posting is my only joy so I shouldn't care about YOUR feelings and stuff.

Yes I am okay with it. Sony owe me nothing, Microsoft owe you nothing. Deal with it.


Did you really just use an analogy of me getting raped in prison because I think this is a positive for Xbox customers?



And your little rant at the end, I don't really understand what your getting at? You don't agree so your trolling me/neogaf?
 

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
I'm assuming they phoned up Charla then? It seems Charla is very willing to help people out on case-by-case basis, wouldn't hurt if they haven't.

edit: My comments make it seem like calling the man is easy, I realize it isn't but surely they can reach out to him (maybe on twitter) and I'm sure he will talk with them.

Not like this solves the problem though.
It doesn't. And "Yeah but you can do this" is still admitting that there's a problem. Besides, I don't think that team has had particularly positive interactions with MS, Charla being able to talk or no. Making noise to solve a problem is not how it should go down.

Maybe they should be reading this instead.
The quote that basically says "Yeah, that's a problem. But everything else is really cool". Not dismissing his post, but it's not a solution to the problem. The only avenue (that I can see) for us to fix this problem is, developers not signing on, and consumers not buying Xbox games. Both of which are things I can't ask people to do. Well, I can but, this is hardly the DRM debacle. And both of those things negatively impact the person and MS inequally. I can only hope Sony lends a helping hand because the PS4 just got a whole lot more console exclusives.
 
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