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[Kas]

It's horrible here in NH. Most people know someone here who does herion or has ODd. There's been debates if Narcan should be sold over the counter, and even if high school teachers should be able to keep it in class rooms.


Hell, even Ive worked with 3 people that I know of that did herion. It's fucked man. And most of the ODs are from fetanyl-laced herion. There's nothing we can do, and there's really nothing that's being done except more police raids in the big cities.

 

[Riptwo]

It's horrible here in NH. Most people know someone here who does herion or has ODd. There's been debates if Narcan should be sold over the counter, and even if high school teachers should be able to keep it in class rooms.

We recently made naloxone available over the counter in Alberta, but it's still a tough battle against illicit fentanyl. Fentanyl overdoses can't necessarily be managed by a single dose of naloxone; the naloxone wears off at around 30 minutes, but due to Fentanyl's potency, it may not. This can cause the patient to actually re-overdose unless additional naloxone is administered, so it's vital that they're brought to emergency care immediately. If carfentanyl is even more potent, that's seriously scary.

 

[Aztechnology]

There are some intense neurobiological components to addiction, causing some to be more susceptible than others to begin with. In addition, a number of drugs modify one's reward pathway (i.e. modifying dopamine receptors) and quite literally cause one to crave said drug over food, sex, etc. Combine that with harsh and potentially deadly withdrawal symptoms, and it's difficult to claim that it's a matter of willpower.

Once they're on it, I completely agree. It's the initial decision making that gets them there though. I think that's the source of my Judgement. I'm like I never did that, knew better, was smarter etc. I know that's unfair and I do sympathize with these people. I can't imagine being friends or family and watching someone fade away in a facsimile or the person they were. You can tell these people could be living such productive lives, that if they got off they could be healthy happy people. But they just can't. The saddest part is its to a a large degree that they cracked down on lesser drugs so they "moved up" in a sense.

A good friend on mine has several forms of Lymes disease. He has a lot of opiods but has weaned himself off of many. He still has scripts for them though, including Fentanyl patches at one point (after one he said never again) . People have broken into his house numerous times because once people know about his illness they just know. They make it their jobs to know who they can score off of. It's frightening. I'm against guns 99% of the time, but he's a case where one is absolutely needed. I've been sleeping at his house when someone tried to come in and find drugs before.

 

[Red]

I know. It's no different then the depression I suffered from. People could have looked down on me and said why couldn't you just get a grip etc. It's just the lengths they will go to to get their fix that gets to me. I wasn't trying to say they don't deserve sympathy. It's just such a departure... It's really sad. One of the guys in there you could tell he wanted so badly to get out. I can kind of empathize, but that guy is on a whole different plane.

I guess I just have a lot to learn about here. For me my depression wasn't a choice. Drugs do seem like a choice to me though so I have this nagging harsh judgment in the back of my mind even though I know they don't necessarily deserve it.

I think of opiate addiction as corellate to the behavior changes caused by parasites like toxoplasma gondii. This parasite reproduces in the digestive system of cats. Its spores are excreted in cat feces. Cats must ingest it in order for it to reproduce. Rats who are infected by this parasite display modified behavior: they are attracted instead of repelled by cat urine, so that they become easy prey, and the parasite can make its way into the stomach of a cat. Opium is not a parasite, but it forces addicts to behave in similar self-destructive ways. It forces them to ignore responsibilities and well-being in pursuit of the drug. The drug is everything. This is not a weakness of will. It is the chemistry of addiction.

Once they're on it, I completely agree. It's the initial decision making that gets them there though. I think that's the source of my Judgement. I'm like I never did that, knew better, was smarter etc. I know that's unfair and I do sympathize with these people. I can't imagine being friends or family and watching someone fair away. You can tell these people could be living such productive lives, that if they got off they could be healthy happy people. But they just can't. The saddest part is its to a a large degree that they cracked down on lesser drugs so they "moved up" in a sense.

A good friend on mine has several forms of Lymes disease. He has a lot of opiods but has weaned himself off of many. He still has scripts for them though, including Fentanyl patches at one point. People have broken into his house numerous times because once people know about his illness they just know. They make it their jobs to know who they can score off of. It's frightening. I'm against guns 99% of the time, but he's a case where one is absolutely needed. I've been sleeping at his house when someone tried to come in and find drugs before.

Not everyone dives headfirst into heroin seeking the thrill of a high. Many people are left with no other recourse to treat chronic pain, or after exposure to and addiction to prescription painkillers for any number of ailments.

 

[Riptwo]

Once they're on it, I completely agree. It's the initial decision making that gets them there though. I think that's the source of my Judgement. I'm like I never did that, knew better, was smarter etc. I know that's unfair and I do sympathize with these people. I can't imagine being friends or family and watching someone fair away. You can tell these people could be living such productive lives, that if they got off they could be healthy happy people. But they just can't. The saddest part is its to a a large degree that they cracked down on lesser drugs so they "moved up" in a sense.

A good portion of this was likely caused by the overprescription of opioids for pain management without proper management. People were given drugs like oxycontin without proper management or tapering, and ended up buying it from the street when their prescriptions ran out. Oxyneo was developed to replace Oxycontin in a less easily snorted/injected form, and when Oxycontin began to disappear from the streets, users moved on to other drugs.

Fentanyl began to show up on the streets disguised as Oxycontin, and most users didn't realize what it was that they were getting. The pills looked just like Oxycontin down to the stamps and the colour. Because of this, there was a sudden rash of overdoses, and many of those who survived are now dependant on something far more powerful than the original drug that they were prescribed.

 

[Khoryos]

I think of opiate addiction as corellate to the behavior changes caused by parasites like toxoplasma gondii. This parasite reproduces in the digestive system of cats. Its spores are excreted in cat feces. Cats must ingest it in order for it to reproduce. Rats who are infected by this parasite display modified behavior: they are attracted instead of repelled by cat urine, so that they become easy prey, and the parasite can make its way into the stomach of a cat. Opium is not a parasite, but it forces addicts to behave in similar self-destructive ways. It forces them to ignore responsibilities and well-being in pursuit of the drug. The drug is everything. This is not a weakness of will. It is the chemistry of addiction.

I'm sorry, no, bullshit.

Nothing can *force* you to get high. Addiction slants things against you, but you still choose to do it every single time. And you can still choose to not to, every time.

 

[Aztechnology]

A good portion of this was likely caused by the overprescription of opioids for pain management without proper management. People were given drugs like oxycontin without proper management or tapering, and ended up buying it from the street when their prescriptions ran out. Oxyneo was developed to replace Oxycontin in a less easily snorted/injected form, and when Oxycontin began to disappear from the streets, users moved on to other drugs.

Fentanyl began to show up on the streets disguised as Oxycontin, and most users didn't realize what it was that they were getting. The pills looked just like Oxycontin down to the stamps and the colour. Because of this, there was a sudden rash of overdoses, and many of those who survived are now dependant on something far more powerful than the original drug that they were prescribed.

Thresholds in our biochemistry can really do a number to these poor people.

 

[Red]

I'm sorry, no, bullshit.

Nothing can *force* you to get high. Addiction slants things against you, but you still choose to do it every single time. And you can still choose to not to, every time.

Yes.

But to say the choice is not easy is to underplay how profoundly addiction can affect the mind.

"Slants things against you" does not nearly represent the extent of it.

 

[adamsappel]

I'm sorry, no, bullshit.

Nothing can *force* you to get high. Addiction slants things against you, but you still choose to do it every single time. And you can still choose to not to, every time.

Do you understand that you also choose to eat?

 

[Suite Pee]

I'm sorry, no, bullshit.

Nothing can *force* you to get high. Addiction slants things against you, but you still choose to do it every single time. And you can still choose to not to, every time.

What's your personal experience with addiction?

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

Ignorant, judgemental-GAF really showed up for this thread, wow.

 

[sir_kevith]

Man this is so tragic. It's such a difficult issue too. I used to always think like "why would people even start using these drugs? What leads someone to that?" Until I developed rheumatoid arthritis and experienced pretty elevated, chronic pain. I haven't taken opiates yet and my condition likely won't require anything more than possibly Tylenol 2 since longer term treatment options are available, but I get it now. And I know that there are tons of both chronic and acute conditions that are way worse than what I'm dealing with. Like what are you supposed to do if you're in agony all the time and you can't even sleep?

Yeah I had to pass a kidney stone and I would rate the pain I experienced as a 9/10. They gave me one of the strongest shots of morphine they could and i'd say it brought me to a 6 but there was also a little euphoric feeling I got even though I could still feel the pain. I could finally stop rocking back and forth in the hospital bed and lay still. The pain only lasted another hour or so but if I had to deal with that level of pain for days or weeks then yeah I could see how one could get addicted to opiates easy.

 

[Aztechnology]

Ignorant, judgemental-GAF really showed up for this thread, wow.

My comments were specifically in relationship to the video on Vice and Fentanyl. I'm trying to understand better. But sure if you just want to throw up your hands in frustration feel free . I'm just explaining how I felt conflicted about how to feel about these people. On one hand I sympathize so much that my heart aches watching them, on the other hand a large part of the blame rests on their shoulders. A ton of resources go into getting these people help often and then they just keep using and relapsing, look at San Francisco's annual expenditure for instance. It certainly makes it harder to feel as sorry for their situations when it was personal choices that put them there typically.

The vice video showcases young people who's addiction started by partying though. And the shit they did to get high after is mind blowing. It certainly scares the shit out of you in terms of the risk of addictive substances.

 

[Khoryos]

What's your personal experience with addiction?

Well, I smoked for ten years, and stopped four weeks ago.

Three straight days of mood swings, shakes, sweating, two weeks of suicidal depression, and I haven't slept more than three hours in a row since - but I chose not to smoke, and I keep choosing it.

 

[Fenderputty]

Clearly the war on drugs is working and we shouldn't try new approaches

 

[Red]

Well, I smoked for ten years, and stopped four weeks ago.

Three straight days of mood swings, shakes, sweating, two weeks of suicidal depression, and I haven't slept more than three hours in a row since - but I chose not to smoke, and I keep choosing it.

I assume you smoked opium?

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Frontline's Chasing Heroin investigation on the heroin and opiod epidimic is still top notch.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Wtf...

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I'm sorry, no, bullshit.

Nothing can *force* you to get high. Addiction slants things against you, but you still choose to do it every single time. And you can still choose to not to, every time.

What a dumb thing to say.

http://apps.frontline.org/heroin-stories/

 

[StopMakingSense]

Well, I smoked for ten years, and stopped four weeks ago.

Three straight days of mood swings, shakes, sweating, two weeks of suicidal depression, and I haven't slept more than three hours in a row since - but I chose not to smoke, and I keep choosing it.

Okay, now try to extrapolate your experience that into something that has much harsher withdrawal than nicotine, and is much more habit-forming, that started out as something you was originally doctor-prescribed to you because you were experiencing a major acute/chronic pain event.

 

[Khoryos]

Okay, now try to extrapolate your experience that into something that has much harsher withdrawal than nicotine, and is much more habit-forming, that started out as something you was originally doctor-prescribed to you because you were experiencing a major acute/chronic pain event.

How about you try to imagine what an addict thinks and feels when every person discussing his circumstances says that it's external, compelling force that's making him take his drugs, that he doesn't have a choice, that it's not his fault because he's sick?

I am not saying it's not hard, that withdrawal doesn't suck ass, that help and treatment don't work (A lot of them are of dubious utility, but that's a different argument).

I'm just saying that you always have a choice*.

*Notable exception for those forcibly addicted as a means of control, they don't have a choice until they're free

 

[Red]

How about you try to imagine what an addict thinks and feels when every person discussing his circumstances says that it's external, compelling force that's making him take his drugs, that he doesn't have a choice, that it's not his fault because he's sick?

I am not saying it's not hard, that withdrawal doesn't suck ass, that help and treatment don't work (A lot of them are of dubious utility, but that's a different argument).

I'm just saying that you always have a choice*.

*Notable exception for those forcibly addicted as a means of control, they don't have a choice until they're free

Well, it's not an external force. It's an internal force compelling him. That doesn't mean it's not a choice. But your comparison with nicotine is way off base. Withdrawal from some substances can literally—literally—be deadly. You may have had a hard time, but it's not the same. Opiates in particular have a very high risk of relapse, and when relapse occurs it often leads to overdose. You are oversimplifying things.

In your view then, is everyone who struggles to give up heroin but can't simply saddled with a weak will? Are they all just not strong enough to pull themselves out?

 

[Red]

I thought this would be relevant:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37320535?client=safari

 

[Skellig Gra]

I thought this would be relevant:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37320535?client=safari

My wife was just showing me that. Man if that isn't some of the most fucked up shit. People in here acting like these people are freely doing this just for kicks.

 

[Red]

Another good article:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/16/health/huntington-heroin/index.html

 

[fastford58]

Bad batch?

What defines a "bad batch" of heroin lol.

It's all bad.

 

[adamsappel]

What defines a "bad batch" of heroin lol.

It's all bad.

Heroin isn't physiologically harmful in itself. The physical harm comes from ingesting more than your body can take (an OVERdose) or the adulterants that dealers use to increase the volume of what they sell.