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[tebunker]

I think the bigger issue is that the majority of HDTV's in homes aren't 4K to begin with. Selling a product geared towards a much smaller market.

Maybe that trend will be different a year from now, though.

I've been waiting to see something like this, but the only thing that will cause 4k adoption is TV sellers no longer selling 1080p tvs.

People forget that the actual main drivers of HDTV adoption were dropping panel prices combined with Government regulation of HDTV digital broadcasting over the air.

Thats what caused people to either ditch their 10+ year old tube tv or to buy a digital tuner box. It just happened to coincide with the advent of very inexpensive panels.

It was the perfect storm.

4K adoption isn't going to be nearly the same and it is why you see companies trying to push people down the path.

The majority of people will nit be able to tell the difference between 4k and 1080p. You can I might because we're on a gaming bord where a lot of members obsess over IQ, but most people sit too damned close the tv already, so 4k will be lost on then.

I think it is nice that Sony and MS are going to offer 4k capable gear, but it won't be the standard for a little while longer, and worrying about 60 fps now is kind of silly.

Let's take baby steps and build out an actual market and then worry about better fps etc. Think of this as the early times of HD gaming, like 2004/2005 going in to PS3 launch. Remember HDTV/Digital standard switch didn't happen until 2009. That was 3 years almost in to Ps3s life.

 

[Smokey]

In modern games? They definitely cant.

Yes...they can.

I had a Titan X SLI rig and at one point had a Tri SLI Titan Black rig. A 1080 is a good amount faster than a Titan X.

He said highest end PCs, which I have experience with, and I am saying yes it is possible. Now if you're one of those who discount a game because 8x MSAA isn't enabled at 4k, then I can't help you.

 

[Jacksinthe]

The discussion of 4k60 is irrelevant as my gut tells me we will only see 1080/30 as the norm.

Just a hunch.

 

[ThatEuroGuy]

If I know anything about console gamers it's that they don't care about framerate as long as the game looks pretty. It shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, the Xbox360/ps3 generation brought a lot of unrequested but welcomed and well-timed polish in that regard. I remember a lot of games on the original Xbox struggling to perform constant 30fps

 

[jmdajr]

I'm gonna wait this whole mess out.

 

[bomblord1]

Yes...they can.

I had a Titan X SLI rig and at one point had a Tri SLI Titan Black rig. A 1080 is a good amount faster than a Titan X.

He said highest end PCs, which I have experience with, and I am saying yes it is possible. Now if you're one of those who discount a game because 8x MSAA isn't enabled at 4k, then I can't help you.

Yes...they can.

I had a Titan X SLI rig and at one point had a Tri SLI Titan Black rig. A 1080 is a good amount faster than a Titan X.

He said highest end PCs, which I have experience with, and I am saying yes it is possible. Now if you're one of those who discount a game because 8x MSAA isn't enabled at 4k, then I can't help you.

There are still some games that can't hit 4k 60fps on a single 1080 without turning effects down considerably (If your ok with medium to low I guess then it can do it)

In some cases even that turning effects down doesn't do it. In GTA V for example even with effects turned down considerably the 1080 only averages in the mid 50's and on the highest settings it can barely average 30

GTA V is a technically challenging game with a huge number of things going on at once, challenging both the graphics card and processor of any gaming system. The built-in benchmark tests the game in various ways, and I paid attention to the flying and driving portion, which are by far the most difficult.

I turned every setting up to maximum, with all settings on their highest and all anti-aliasing and visual effects as high as they would go. All three performed commendably at Full HD, but they all struggled a little at 4K.

Even the GTX 1080 could only manage an average 33.3fps, dropping down to 25fps at times. It was 22% faster than the GTX 980 Ti, though, which could only chug to 27.2fps. The GTX 980 wasn't able to compete in this particular test; GTA V would not allow itself to exceed the 980's 4GB of memory.

This test was not in any of the GPUs’ favour, so I also ran it with a few of the rather unnecessary effects switched off, and both the 980 Ti and 1080 were considerably more stable while the game still looked great, and both were able to exceed 50fps averages in this instance.

Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-review#Osk40uragMpPQJbk.99

Of course I don't want to say it definitively cannot do 4k 60fps in any modern games in some games it can even do it on ultra

 

[RealityCheque]

Yes...they can.

I had a Titan X SLI rig and at one point had a Tri SLI Titan Black rig. A 1080 is a good amount faster than a Titan X.

He said highest end PCs, which I have experience with, and I am saying yes it is possible. Now if you're one of those who discount a game because 8x MSAA isn't enabled at 4k, then I can't help you.

I think what I was trying to say is that high end GPUs still have to make compromises to achieve 4K/60. Which isn't a surprise, it took a while for 1080/60 to be a normal aim as well.

So the worry over Neo/Scorpio not being able to hit that kind of performance is kind of a non-issue.

 

[Fermbiz]

i find it weird that people are dismissing 4k60 entirely.

We have plenty of 1080p60 games on current consoles - and if a game's not all about visual spectacle, i don't see why there shouldn't be any 60fps games at 4k.

Stuff like Resogun would look great in 4k60

Im with him on this.

 

[Aroll]

We're not even getting stable 60fps at 1080p on home consoles right now, and many games still shoot for just 30.

4k is a massive leap over 1080p. To think we're going to get ANY console games targetting 4k and 60fps anytime soon is a non factor. We're probably 15, maybe 20 years away from 4k, 60fps, being standard and by then, most that care will have tv's that support that.

Even for the master PC race - they barely can get any games playing on max settings at 4k with 60fps. It's just not something even feasible to worry about. So if a game does do 60fps, it's probably at 1080p anyways. If it does 4k, then it;s probably at best 30fps.

It's not something to worry about anytime soon.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

There are still some games that can't hit 4k 60fps on a single 1080 without turning effects down considerably (If your ok with medium to low I guess then it can do it)

In some cases even that turning effects down doesn't do it. In GTA V for example even with effects turned down considerably the 1080 only averages in the mid 50's and on the highest settings it can barely average 30

Of course I don't want to say it definitively cannot do 4k 60fps in any modern games in some games it can even do it on ultra

SLI is still the way to go if you want 4k. I'm playing through Witcher 3 right now on sli titan x's and it's glorious.

 

[Backfoggen]

1. Most 4K tvs support HDMI 2.0. There were only a few models in the beginning that didn't.
2. Even if games don't run at 4k60 the output needs to be that for the OS and video and shit.
3. The only problem with this could be older AV receivers. I think a lot of people will get their Xbox One S and only then realize that part of their setup doesn't support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2.

 

[Guess Who]

My understanding is that an HDMI device, like an Xbox, can get a listing of what display modes a TV supports from the TV via the HDMI connection. So an Xbox will likely know that it's hooked up to a 4K/30Hz TV. I would guess that, in that case, the Xbox would be intelligent enough to do something like display films in 4K/30 but switch to 1080p/60 when playing a game.

 

[Azulsky]

Would do better for you guys to start getting Super Sampled effects instead of worrying about 4K. Image Quality can come from other places aside from resolution.


Many Xbone games were not even 1080p and PS4 could only do 1080p30 for demanding titles.You really need to get 1080p @ 60fps first before you worry about quadrupling the # of pixels.

 

[Smokey]

There are still some games that can't hit 4k 60fps on a single 1080 without turning effects down considerably (If your ok with medium to low I guess then it can do it)

In some cases even that turning effects down doesn't do it. In GTA V for example even with effects turned down considerably the 1080 only averages in the mid 50's and on the highest settings it can barely average 30

Of course I don't want to say it definitively cannot do 4k 60fps in any modern games in some games it can even do it on ultra

Not disputing single GPU performance. But when you say 'highest end',that implies the types of setups I mentioned. So yes, it can be done but how much do you want to spend to achieve it is the question.

I think what I was trying to say is that high end GPUs still have to make compromises to achieve 4K/60. Which isn't a surprise, it took a while for 1080/60 to be a normal aim as well.

So the worry over Neo/Scorpio not being able to hit that kind of performance is kind of a non-issue.

I got you, and agree.

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

The only major elephant in the room is that they're promising 4k when they can't even get 1080/60 on a consistent basis.

more like the major elephant in the room is people that dont actually listen, when they talk 4K is about media AND if devs want to do a 4K game they wont hold them back.

its' like this shit is so hard to grasp it aint even funny anymore

edit: that said if people want to fooll themselves they can do whatever the fuck they wanna do

 

[mitchman]

In modern games? They definitely cant.

I guess with SLI 1080s/1070s they can, for the games that support SLI

A single 1080 is enough and lowering effects a bit in some games.

SLI is still the way to go if you want 4k. I'm playing through Witcher 3 right now on sli titan x's and it's glorious.

SLI Titan X has similar performance as a single GTX 1080, so sli is not the end all of performance.

 

[gypsygib]

HAHAHA

Sorry, there's no way Scorpio or Neo will be able to do 4K@60FPS unless they significantly reduce in game assets and effects.

Games would pretty much need to look like they released in 2012 - early 2013 to run at 4K@60FPS.

 

[Journey]

I don't know of a single 4k TV that was sold outside of Seiki that didn't have HDMI 2.0 on at least one of its HDMI ports. If you have a 4K TV, I doubt this is an issue. Not to mention unless the new consoles have $600+ dollar GPU's in them they aren't going to be seeing 4k/60fps. (Hint they won't, roughly AMD 480 level GPU's supposed to be featured in the Neo and Scorpio which means 40k/30 for gaming if they even focus on 4k.)

What about a game like Ori and the Blind Forest? that would be glorious at 4K/60 and doable. Also, too early to know what GPU will be in Scorpio, I highly doubt they'll be using a GPU available today for end of 2017, it will likely be a custom GPU with the architecture of late 2017 GPUs, Aka the successor to the 480.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

SLI Titan X has similar performance as a single GTX 1080, so sli is not the end all of performance.

I'm not sure what point you're going after here. Buying SLI Titan Xs now would be fucking stupid. Now you'd buy sli 1080s, or upgrade to them if you're crazy enough

Spoiler

(ship my fucking cards Amazon!)

. The discussion was high end gaming rigs and their ability to play games at 4k. If you're talking the highest of high end, you're talking SLI.

SLI has a ton of issues and is really not worth it unless you just really love to waste the money, like some of us do. But, if you are serious about going after 4k60, it's the way to go for at least one more graphics card generation unless you want to seriously be turning down some settings.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

What about a game like Ori and the Blind Forest? that would be glorious at 4K/60 and doable. Also, too early to know what GPU will be in Scorpio, I highly doubt they'll be using a GPU available today for end of 2017, it will likely be a custom GPU with the architecture of late 2017 GPUs, Aka the successor to the 480.

That will be possible, same with some basic looking JRPGs.

On my 280x I could play Tales of Zestiria in 30/4k. With my 980ti 60 (with the patch)/4k is possible.
I just dont think that will be normal for more complex looking games.

 

[mitchman]

I'm not sure what point you're going after here. Buying SLI Titan Xs now would be fucking stupid. Now you'd buy sli 1080s, or upgrade to them if you're crazy enough

Spoiler

(ship my fucking cards Amazon!)

. The discussion was high end gaming rigs and their ability to play games at 4k. If you're talking the highest of high end, you're talking SLI.

SLI has a ton of issues and is really not worth it unless you just really love to waste the money, like some of us do. But, if you are serious about going after 4k60, it's the way to go for at least one more graphics card generation unless you want to seriously be turning down some settings.

I suggest you read the thread messages I was responding to. I know this and I use a single 1080, I have never used SLI for these reasons. It started with someone claiming a high end PC rig can´t do 4k/60fps, which is incorrect.

 

[Lima]

Devs don't need to worry since a cheap ass TV that only supports 4K/30Hz won't even display a picture when it is feed a 4K/60Hz signal from any device.

Besides who gives a shit about these people. I really doubt the Hisense crew is going to buy Scorpio.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

I suggest you read the thread messages I was responding to.

Huh? You quoted me, so I assumed you must be responding to me.

 

[SDMG]

I have a Seiki 4k tv an it has a HDMI 2.0 port on it.

 

[Stevey]

I doubt any developer is aiming for 4K/60 with the new consoles

 

[Art Vandilay]

Assuming this is true, looks like I'll be buying that Vizio P-series 50" after all. Hopefully Black Friday will be generous to us.

Edit: Wait, is 1080p/60fps possible on 1.4?

 

[Onemic]

Yes...they can.

I had a Titan X SLI rig and at one point had a Tri SLI Titan Black rig. A 1080 is a good amount faster than a Titan X.

He said highest end PCs, which I have experience with, and I am saying yes it is possible. Now if you're one of those who discount a game because 8x MSAA isn't enabled at 4k, then I can't help you.

....I explicitly mentioned SLI being the exception, but you didnt include that as part of your response....

SLI isnt included when people are talking about this stuff anyway because not all games support SLI and that's without mentioning stuff like micro stutter. Also since this is about consoles managing 4K60 it doesnt make sense to mention SLI since they will only have single GPU setups.

 

[mnannola]

This is a good point. Everyone here saying there is no way the consoles will be able to do 4K / 60 FPS are probably wrong in the following situations:

1. The console UI.
2. 2D indie games
3. Previous gen remasters.

What would happen in these situations if the game does support 4K / 60 but the TV does not? Will it just not output the picture at all? Will the console be able to tell that the TV doesn't support it and then configure the output settings accordingly?

 

[SDMG]

Assuming this is true, looks like I'll be buying that Vizio P-series 50" after all. Hopefully Black Friday will be generous to us.

Edit: Wait, is 1080p/60fps possible on 1.4?

Im grabbing the Samsung UN50KU6300 - 50-Inch 4K UHD HDR Smart LED TV - KU6300 6-Series

real good price on it

 

[Lima]

This is a good point. Everyone here saying there is no way the consoles will be able to do 4K / 60 FPS are probably wrong in the following situations:

1. The console UI.
2. 2D indie games
3. Previous gen remasters.

What would happen in these situations if the game does support 4K / 60 but the TV does not? Will it just not output the picture at all? Will the console be able to tell that the TV doesn't support it and then configure the output settings accordingly?

Fall back to 1080p/60Hz. A TV that doesn't support 4K/60Hz will just not display a picture.

 

[nakedeyes]

OP makes a good point. In practice though, HDMI 2 is on 99.9% of all 4k sets.. only some very early ( and still, some very cheap! ) 4k sets ever didn't have HDMI 2.

 

[Art Vandilay]

Im grabbing the Samsung UN50KU6300 - 50-Inch 4K UHD HDR Smart LED TV - KU6300 6-Series

real good price on it

Wow, Amazon has it listed for $710 in the US. Is it HDR10, Dolby HDR, or both?

Edit: Best Buy has it for the same price. Edit 2: It's $638 if you get the open box deal.

 

[mitchman]

Huh? You quoted me, so I assumed you must be responding to me.

I see now that you said you´d need SLI to run 4k/60fps, which is not correct. Many games will handle it even at ultra, and lowering to extra high and tweaking the AA is enough for most others.

 

[mr stroke]

No such thing as HDMI 2.0/2.0a cables

It's all about the HDMI port on the actual device.

Uh?

 

[eso76]

4k60fps isn't completely out of the picture for games like Rez or those 2d vector titles.
But I'm not sure how many 4k TVs ship without HDMI 2.0 tbh

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

I see now that you said you´d need SLI to run 4k/60fps, which is not correct. Many games will handle it even at ultra, and lowering to extra high and tweaking the AA is enough for most others.

That's just not true. All the current games that are considered the most visually impressive are hammering a single high-end GPU at 1080/1440p60 at high settings. In 18 months time when you might consider upgrading, you're going to be struggling to hit ultra 1080p60. The 1080 doesn't manage 4K60 now, what;s it going to be like in 18 months time?

 

[low-G]

4K 60fps isn't going to be possible on the Neo & Scorpio in high fidelity games anyways...

But yeah if you're upgrading to one of those new consoles it isn't inconceivable you'd buy a higher end 4K HDTV too...

 

[Vashetti]

Uh?

Pretty clear. HDMI 2.0/2.0a cables do not exist. Any 'high-speed' HDMI cable of the last few years is fine.

What you need to be concerned about is the HDMI port itself on your device, be it your game console, PC, TV, AV Receiver, etc. That's where you need to check if it's HDMI 1.4, 2.0, or 2.0a

There is no new standard for HDMI cables, any one from the past few years will work.

 

[diablos991]

We need to move away from HDMI already.
This is going to confuse consumers.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I'm pretty sure that other than some of the very first models (from a few years ago) all 4k tvs have hdmi 2.0 ports on them

HAHAHA

Sorry, there's no way Scorpio or Neo will be able to do 4K@60FPS unless they significantly reduce in game assets and effects.

Games would pretty much need to look like they released in 2012 - early 2013 to run at 4K@60FPS.

it really depends

stuff like battlefield 1? battlefront? witcher? obviously not a snowball's chance in hell

but something like overwatch can easily run at 60fps 4k on an r9 390 (scorpio equivalent)

 

[Smokey]

....I explicitly mentioned SLI being the exception, but you didnt include that as part of your response....

SLI isnt included when people are talking about this stuff anyway because not all games support SLI and that's without mentioning stuff like micro stutter. Also since this is about consoles managing 4K60 it doesnt make sense to mention SLI since they will only have single GPU setups.

Probably because you edited it in after I already quoted you, hence why it's not in the original quote I was responding to...

This is a console thread, but I was specifically responding to a statement that read "the highest end PCs cant output 4k/60", which from my own personal experience, is false.

 

[ps3ud0]

I looked for a topic and couldn't find it, apologies if discussed.

4K TVs come with HDMI ports. What version of HDMI you have depends on the TV, not the cable or console. Older versions don't support 60fps.

Many HD TVs shipped with HDMI 1.4, and some still continue to (I just almost purchased one). HDMI 1.4 and below does not support 60fps.

HDMI 2.0+ is the newest standard, and supports 18Gbps bandwidth and 60fps 4K.

So there is going to be a weird situation with next gen consoles being sold to consumers on 4K, many of which aren't going to have a TV capable out of outputting 60fps in 4K.

So, like, how is that going to work for developers? Target 60fps and then have consumers who can't play on their 4K TV unless they upgrade TV again?

Honestly I think youre whole premise is aimed at the wrong target. Developers arent going to care what capabilities your UHD TV has, theyll likely only care about how many UHD TVs there are compared to Full HDTVs when conceiving their game.

I also think non-HDR UHD TVs make up a higher percentage of non-compliance than UHDs TVs that dont have HDMI 2.0+.

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Paz]

The discussion of 4k60 is irrelevant as my gut tells me we will only see 1080/30 as the norm.

Just a hunch.

Not every game is trying to look like Uncharted 4 though, surely there would be some 4k60 indie games at the very least and I would bet immense amounts of money that some AAA fps games will be 4k60 (Even if many of them are reconstructed 4k)

I'd hope that both PS4 High End and Scorpio have an option to limit output to 30fps because as the OP pointed out there are definitely sets that are unhappy about taking a 4k60 signal, I mean we got support for 1080i in the past so it's not unheard of to get support for weird restrictions that TV's have from that mid-generation period. Games that run at 4k60 (Which will DEFINITELY be the minority just as 1080p60 is the minority on current PS4) would then be converted to 4k30 by the console, or you could choose to output in 1080p60 if you want the fps.

People in this thread seem to be completely misinterpreting what the OP is saying though so carry on with all that.