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A Counterpoint to Extra Credit's "Stop Normalizing Nazis" Video

A couple of days ago, Extra Credits released a video in which they argued that forcing gamers to play the Nazi faction in PVP shooters is "normalizing" Nazism:



Look, I used to like Extra Credit's content in the past, but the past few years they really have gone the drain with their reductive hot-takes on gaming. Judging by the comment section and the like to dislike ratio, their video received a lot of backlash from the gaming community and for good reason. But instead of engaging themselves with members of the gaming community through open dialogue, their communications manager decided to throw out ad hominems and call them "bigots" instead:



I'd like to present two important arguments as a refutation to their rather idiotic video that hasn't been largely discussed yet:

On Normalizing Nazis

What Extra Credits doesn't seem to understand is that their whole argument is actually enabling radical ideology due to their lack of historical knowledge. One of the most landmark Nazi-trials of the post-war era that is usually part of a European/German educational curriculum is Adolf Eichmann's trial in Jerusalem.

germany_eichmann_trial_exhibition.jpg


Eichmann's trial received a lot of media attention throughout the world, partially due to Hannah Arendt's involvement. Arendt used Eichmann as an archetype to establish her famous notion of the "banality of evil". In her famous reports on the trial published in The New Yorker, she described Eichmann as a most ordinary person, a mere pencil pusher following order, displaying neither guilt nor hatred for the Jews. Austrian Holocaust survivor Simon Wiesenthal supported Arendt's thesis, saying that "the world now understands the concept of 'desk murderer'. We know that one doesn't need to be fanatical, sadistic, or mentally ill to murder millions; that it is enough to be a loyal follower eager to do one's duty." The term "little Eichmanns" (or "Hanswurst" as Arendt used to describe Eichmann in German) became synonym with cowards following order blindly without principle or critical thought.

Arendt received a lot of backlash for her description of Eichmann, instead of portraying this Nazi as the outright monster that everybody was expecting, she saw nothing but a regular bureaucrat mindlessly fulfilling his task of planning the logistics involved in the mass deportation of Jews to their extermination camps. In essence, friends, colleagues and public audience accused Arendt of "normalizing" Nazism, because they could not fathom ordinary people contributing to the mass extermination of 6 million lives in such a careless and mindless manner.

Point is, in their video Extra Credits is falling for the same kind of fallacy. Nazis are normal people and that is the frightening part.

The "banality of evil" is the argument that extraordinary evil does not happen because of a few select monsters, but due to a lack of critical thought and mindlessness. As such, Nazism or any other kind of radical dehumanizing ideology is a danger that affects each and every one of us, and not something that can be easily dismissed to the realm of extraordinary fanatics and sadists. No, the vast majority of Nazis were regular citizens, like you and me, such is the insidious nature of these radical ideologies. There is a famous German novel called "Die Welle" (The Wave) touching on many of the same issues.

Yes, Nazism is vile, but the hyperbolic vilification of fascism that is currently trending among social justice militants only relegates it to the realm of the impossible, because it fails to realize how ordinary people can easily fall prey to the pied piper. Arendt tried to warn us that Nazi ideology is a "normal" part of human nature and that is what makes it so dangerous.

The greatest danger of Nazism is believing that you cannot become a Nazi yourself.

On sympathetic villains

Modern story-telling has come a long way, but one of its major innovations is the realization that heroes are only as good as their villains. The hyperbolic depiction of evil only leads to cartoon villains that are hardly relatable. One of the most iconic villains in that regard if Flash Gordon's Ming the Merciless:

1110_H-113_Flash_Gordon_066.jpeg


Ming is evil for the sake of being evil, but what's missing is an intrinsic motivation. Ming is just an evil dude, nothing else. Because Ming is so thoroughly evil, he loses his humanity and becomes something meaningless that exists purely for the hero to exercise his heroism. Nobody would ever identity himself with Ming because he has no redeemable attributes. As a consequence, Flash Gordon's heroic deeds become equally as meaningless.

More often than not, evil is the result of a deeply misguided sense of justice, of people justifying their vile deeds for the greater good. A good villain is a villain that we can sympathize with, because only then are we able to realize the potential evil that lies within us and our views.

As a popular mainstream example we could use Thanos. I know there are better examples from classical literature, but let's stick with something well-known:

14396.jpg


Thanos seeks to eradicate half of the Galaxy's existence for the sake of a higher need, to restore balance to the cosmos. In essence he is a Nazi, a genocidal maniac who is justifying necessary evil in order to realize his view of Utopia. But Thanos is not like Ming, he is emotionally vulnerable and cares deeply about his daughters, willing to sacrifice what's dearest to him in order to create a better world according to his ideals.

By Extra Credit's twisted logic, Marvel is "normalizing" a Nazi. In their exaggerated and cartoon-like view on Nazism and the evil of radical ideology, Extra Credits are basically arguing for a return to old-school villains. If you cannot show the human side of a villain because you're too afraid it might make them sympathetic to the audience, Ming the Merciless is what you get and nobody wants that. No, good villains allow you to explore your own shortcomings, to reflect critically on your own assumptions and Ming doesn't do that.

Where was Extra Credit's outrage when Marvel basically made me sympathize with their cosmic Nazi ready for galactic genocide?

When it comes to video games, I'm sick and tired of cartoon-like villains. Give me antagonists with depth and complex motivations. Nobody is going to become a Nazi because he plays the Nazi faction in a WW2 PVP shooter game and nobody will be swayed from radical ideology through the depiction of over the top cartoon villains. Nobody will turn fascist because of a Nazi skin and an armband Swastika exactly because it doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, games can do better, but not in the way that Extra Credits demands... on the contrary!
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
yes i think the othering is a dangerous thing. making them seem Inherently Evil is pretty bad. there were historical, social, political reasons for why the Nazi regime and Hitler rose to power, and every time people use those terms to describe, for instance people that make youtube videos, it spreads ignorance.

Thanos seeks to eradicate half of the Galaxy's existence for the sake of a higher need, to restore balance to the cosmos. In essence he is a Nazi, a genocidal maniac who is justifying necessary evil in order to realize his view of Utopia. But Thanos is not like Ming, he is emotionally vulnerable and cares deeply about his daughters, willing to sacrifice what's dearest to him in order to create a better world according to his ideals.
here is where the entire thing falls apart. media wants to have Nazis as cartoon enemies, yet they also want to indulge in sentimentalizing. as if the idea that Hitler hesitated before ordering Kristallnacht, as if that would excuse his crime. or if we saw him having a rough night's sleep, tossing and turning, as if that would humanize him for us. yes, you can tell that story, but to what end?

ditto for Kylo Ren, who tortures people, kills villagers, oversees the destruction of trillions, yet people are openly hoping he gets redemption bc there are worse bad guys out there. why? because he is deep! he is emotional! see how he slams his helmet into a wall! emotions! it's amazing & kind of scary how far mass audiences can be manipulated.

Thanos is emotionally vulnerable the same way anyone is, i'm sure Hitler had a puppy he cared for, but that does not excuse his actions, nor does pointing out that he is human add any "complexity" to him. in many ways i think the humanizing of villians like Thanos is a reaction to the cartoonifying. filmmakers want to seem clever, look how deep we are being, yet nothing is interrogated with any seriousness. Thanos's emotions are contained in one convenient scene and only when they are required for something he wants. this is fake depth, probably just as harmful as fake cartoon logic.
 
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GreyHorace

Member
Isn't this how most SJW's operate nowadays? Reduce the other side to pure evil and not, you know, seeing the events and circumstances that lead ordinary people to commit or support horrific acts? SJW's don't want to think themselves capable of such evil, which is why they get all self righteous and proclaim themselves the moral authority.

*sighs* I used to like ExtraCredits, but their stance really shows their understanding of history is only skin deep.
 

Psykodad

Banned
Isn't this how most SJW's operate nowadays? Reduce the other side to pure evil and not, you know, seeing the events and circumstances that lead ordinary people to commit or support horrific acts? SJW's don't want to think themselves capable of such evil, which is why they get all self righteous and proclaim themselves the moral authority.

*sighs* I used to like ExtraCredits, but their stance really shows their understanding of history is only skin deep.
You know, that's exactly how Kira started out in Deathnote.

The whole SJW movement can easily become as dangerous as the Nazis if left unchecked.
Too bad those morons don't realize that.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
I wonder what they think of actors playing bad guys in movies and the audience who're entertained by their acting performances. :goog_unsure: :goog_unsure: :goog_unsure:
 
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Saruhashi

Banned
I just hate the ending. As if he is talking to fellow developers.
"If we can do that, we can take a big step forward for The Industry. We can stop helping to normalize Nazis."

The biggest problem is that they haven't really demonstrated to what extent Nazis are "normalized" in 2019.
I'm guessing that unironically having a swastika avatar on NeoGaf would result in a ban?
Same with most social media outlets and most forums on the web?

Yet, we've had games set in WW2 for a long time and still it doesn't look like mainstream support for Nazism is on the horizon.

It really seems like their argument is against the symbolism of Nazi Germany but their reasoning is kind of stuck between "it's offensive to some people" and "it might make people sympathetic to the Nazis". I will only focus on the latter because entertainment featuring Nazi symbolism has been around for decades and those who may be offended by it can kind of easily avoid WW2 themed movies, books, games etc.

So main example they use is a young lad clicking on a website. He sees the iron cross (not sure if this is even a Nazi symbol myself since I believe the current German military does actually use a form of the iron cross) and doesn't immediately "ree and flee" but instead reads a little and becomes a little Nazi (i think they really mean Neo-Nazi though or white supremacist etc since you couldn't really become an actual Nazi).

The main problem there seems to be that we are stuck in a bind. To know that I have to "immediately leave" when I see those symbols I actually have to know what those symbols are. How can I know what the symbols are if they haven't been "normalized" in the culture to some extent? So when the kids are playing their WW2 shooter they are, to some degree, learning about history. They would have to research to know more but even a brief look will reveal the sides involved and even a very high level view of what they were up to during the war.

Surely the kid who has played a WW2 shooter, has seen these symbols and knows roughly what they are is better equipped to know what they are looking at and immediately leave a website? Certainly better than the kid who has no idea what those symbols mean at all?

Does the whole thing hinge on the assumption that ALL kids played full attention is school and so those playing as Nazis in WW2 shooters are having their education "undone" in some way?

The whole video just seems like a clumsy way for their channel to be in on the current US political conversation.


The mask kind of slips a bit when they talk about waiting times.

"Now of course this has all sorts of in game problems. Such as shorter wait times for Fascists"

Wait, so you want to give players the ability to choose a side BUT you then want to call players who chooses the Axis side "Fascists".
Why offer the choice when you are just going to go "GOTCHA" and lambaste players who make the "wrong" choice.

At that point you might as well just say "developers need to stop making PvP games set in WW2". It would be easier than all of this dancing around and tying everyone in knots.

How would a PvP game work if you have 1,000 players online but only 5 "Fascists" have chosen to play for the Axis powers? You can't really have matches unless you just go round and round with X vs X matches where X is the number of "Fascists" who have picked the Axis side.

Just say "no more WW2 PvP please" if that's what you want.


The language and tone used in the video doesn't help as they way it is presented you would think that players are quite literally being asked to fight for the Nazis. Not even asked. Forced.

That's just dumb. You should at least establish that it's a game and that players can opt out by not playing.

Maybe a better argument would be that games where players might be randomly assigned to terrorist or axis teams in an "authentic" real world shooter should have some warning or disclaimer on the box (or on the digital store)?

I'd question the possibility that there are many players out there who are buying a PvP WW2 game because they really really really want to play a WW2 PvP game and are then affronted because sometimes you end up on the wrong side.

I think "socially conscious game design" in this context would have to be "No PVP games set in World War 2 unless the PvP is framed as a training exercise".
 
The problem with Extra Credit's video runs far deeper than not understanding the history of Nazis. It's the notion that because *insert controversial topic* is depicted in a medium, that medium is normalizing the practice of that controversial topic.

This is the same line of reasoning Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkeesian use. Heck, during the winter anime season, SJWs complained that The Rising of the Shield Hero promoted misogyny because it used a false rape accusation as a plot point.
 

Despera

Banned
More proof that just because someone articulates and packages their argument very well doesn't mean they are immune to bullshiting.
 
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GreyHorace

Member
You know, I'm guessing the idiots who run ExtraCredits must really hate Mel Brooks then. In his 1968 film The Producers the plot was about two guys funding a musical that would surely fail and reaping the awards from the insurance. The musical was Springtime for Hitler which was written by a Nazi sympathizer. And they hire a flamboyant gay director to make it and a drugged out hippie to play Hitler. But their plan to produce a flop backfires as on opening night the audience loves it and thinks it a satire of the Third Reich.

Naturally, some people were pissed at Brooks thinking he was making light of WW2 and the evil of the Nazis in general. But they completely missed Brooks' point. By making Hitler a figure of mockery, he reduced the power he had as an inspiring figure and is now looked upon as ridiculous. Is it any wonder that among Neo-Nazis (who list anti-Nazi films such as American History X and Schindler's List as their favorites), The Producers is hated with a passion?

By denying the existence of Nazis, you give their image more of a mystique than they deserve. That's something the noobs at ExtraCredits just don't get.
 
Extra credits are simplistic motherfuckers and by purposefuly ignoring that most nazis were not babyeating monsters but ignorant voters, run-of-the-mill soldiers and punch-clock pencil-pushers they're missing the entire point.

Thanks for putting it on point so succinctly.

Thanos is emotionally vulnerable the same way anyone is, i'm sure Hitler had a puppy he cared for, but that does not excuse his actions, nor does pointing out that he is human add any "complexity" to him. in many ways i think the humanizing of villians like Thanos is a reaction to the cartoonifying. filmmakers want to seem clever, look how deep we are being, yet nothing is interrogated with any seriousness. Thanos's emotions are contained in one convenient scene and only when they are required for something he wants. this is fake depth, probably just as harmful as fake cartoon logic.

I appreciate where you're coming from and to a certain point I absolutely agree. It's all a bit emotionally manipulative and if you scratch beneath the surface you'll often find that there's not a whole lot to see. Still, in contrast to Ming, I'll take fake depth over no depth at all any time. After all, we're talking about mainstream entertainment, we won't find any Fausts, Charles Marlows or Ahabs there.

Being conflicted doesn't excuse your actions, but it's the first step to give your character a little bit of depth. My main gripe with the arguments shown in videos like Extra Credits is the clamoring for black & white story-telling because god beware we risk humanizing the villain by giving him relatable traits.

This ideological tribalism is one of the reason why so many entertainment products coming out of America, including video games, suck now. One need only compare the latest Mass Effect to something like the Bloody Baron quest in Witcher 3. There's almost nothing that is more engaging than a villain you end up liking to some degree. It make you question your own beliefs and that is what ultimately cultivates critical thinking.

What we've got now is a kind of media criticism that not only promotes black & white thinking, but also a new kind of audience that would undoubtedly fall easy prey to fascist means so long as they promote their vision of the greater good.

Naturally, some people were pissed at Brooks thinking he was making light of WW2 and the evil of the Nazis in general. But they completely missed Brooks' point. By making Hitler a figure of mockery, he reduced the power he had as an inspiring figure and is now looked upon as ridiculous.

Excellent point.
 
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Fbh

Member
My biggest problem with this and similar videos is that, usually, when you combine them with stuff these people have said in other videos (or platforms) it tends to end in this sort of "videogames are fictional and don't affect us in the real world....except if it's something that bothers me" mentality.

If later today a somewhat relevant politician speaks out about wanting to regulate or possibly ban violent videogames because they "normalize and promote violence and as such have a notorious effect in turning people more violent and aggressive" I can pretty much assure you that the vast majority of the gaming community, regardless of political views or "wokeness", would be strongly opposed to the idea and they would be right in citing the fact that no major study has found any relevant proof of violent videogames having such an effect on people.
Not to mention that they'd possibly feel personally attacked and wouldn't doubt about pointing out that, as a normal and well adjusted adult, it's not hard for them to differentiate between real life and a fictional video game.

Which is all good and well, except when it's something these people don't personally like. Then, their stance on the effects of videogames in the real world takes a sudden 180 and now they suddenly have this big effect in making us sexist, or racist or more accepting of nazis and terrorists.


If anyone is actually normalizing such terms it's modern outrage culture and social media trash mobs. 10 years ago you told me someone was a racist and I sort of got the idea, now it's like "ok but are we talking actual racism? or is it more like he didn't like Rose from The Last Jedi?"
 

GreyHorace

Member
I think this generation is detached from WW2 too, Mel Brooks actually fought in the war.
By having lived through it, he has a point of view that is a lot more relevant than people today.
Exactly. I mean, whose word are you going to take with regards to WW2 history? A legendary comedian/filmmaker who actually fought in the Big One? Or a bunch of shitty youtuber historians who've only killed Nazis in Wolfenstein?
 
Nice essay, OP. Plus, I’d actually think that playing the bad guy in a video game is a good way to put a player in a position to think about moral issues. A person is less likely to make a moral mistake IRL if they have actually made that mistake in a virtual context, understood why the path was tempting, and then experienced the negative consequences. Speaking from experience here, as playing MMOs as a teen helped me develop moral principles—while playing the bad guy.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
If anyone is actually normalizing such terms it's modern outrage culture and social media trash mobs. 10 years ago you told me someone was a racist and I sort of got the idea, now it's like "ok but are we talking actual racism? or is it more like he didn't like Rose from The Last Jedi?"
Thats very true, these days people will consider you "racist" or "sexist" for every little thing, heck, these days just being white makes you automatically "racist". But the unfortunate result is other side now consider every little thing "SJW", basically it just became big mess.
 
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zenspider

Member
You know, I'm guessing the idiots who run ExtraCredits must really hate Mel Brooks then. In his 1968 film The Producers the plot was about two guys funding a musical that would surely fail and reaping the awards from the insurance. The musical was Springtime for Hitler which was written by a Nazi sympathizer. And they hire a flamboyant gay director to make it and a drugged out hippie to play Hitler. But their plan to produce a flop backfires as on opening night the audience loves it and thinks it a satire of the Third Reich.

Naturally, some people were pissed at Brooks thinking he was making light of WW2 and the evil of the Nazis in general. But they completely missed Brooks' point. By making Hitler a figure of mockery, he reduced the power he had as an inspiring figure and is now looked upon as ridiculous. Is it any wonder that among Neo-Nazis (who list anti-Nazi films such as American History X and Schindler's List as their favorites), The Producers is hated with a passion?

By denying the existence of Nazis, you give their image more of a mystique than they deserve. That's something the noobs at ExtraCredits just don't get.

I just watched The Producers last night, and I couldn't quite grasp the parallel to this post with my excitement at the coincidence.

It does exist as a brilliant counter-point somewhere in this fog I'd hesitate to call a way of thinking, and I think it has everything to do with intent and consequence. Not only is the intent of the characters on brilliant display in The Producers, and the intent of Mel Brooks, but most spectacularly, the unforseen consequences.

To oversimply, "Springtime For Hitler" could not have been made to be more overtly sympathetic to Hitler and spark outrage, yet it "succeeded" as a satire to nobody's credit... but the audience's.

"Where did we go right?" Their 'mistake' was ultimately in underestimating the medium's room for nuance and the audience's capacity for it - which is exactly what the woke anti-thought is doing in the space of norms and normative behavior.

What they're doing is, in analogy, not punishing and marganlizing Nazis, Nazi sympathizers or even the producers of such messages, but of the audience who can and does have a different interpretation than intended.
 
I saw this video when I heard about the backlash. One of the dumbest things I've ever heard and instead of listening to the response they put their fingers in their ears and call everyone that disagrees a bigot. Typical.
 

BigBooper

Member
What does normalize mean to them? This is one of the most feelings not facts subject I've seen from them. Granted I haven't seen much of their stuff.
 

Xiaoki

Member
Extra credits are simplistic motherfuckers and by purposefuly ignoring that most nazis were not babyeating monsters but ignorant voters, run-of-the-mill soldiers and punch-clock pencil-pushers they're missing the entire point.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
John Stuart Mill, 1867

Bonus quote that is relevant here:
"It is general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare."
Edmund Burke, 1769
 

radewagon

Member
Yes, Nazism is vile, but the hyperbolic vilification of fascism that is currently trending among social justice militants only relegates it to the realm of the impossible, because it fails to realize how ordinary people can easily fall prey to the pied piper. Arendt tried to warn us that Nazi ideology is a "normal" part of human nature and that is what makes it so dangerous.

The greatest danger of Nazism is believing that you cannot become a Nazi yourself.

You sure did do a lot of book smart quoting before you got to this thesis statement of sorts. The thing is, though, that in this statement, you outline exactly why it is that you should actually agree with what the video promotes. As you state, the greatest danger is believing that you can not become a nazi yet you are promoting an argument that would dissuade "social justice militants" from being against the pied piper that is playing as a nazi in a videogame when that game offers no meaningful historical context. Again, that's something that's brought up by you and the video. Strange, again, that you seem to disagree with the overall video's message. History is important and not paying it due attention is dangerous. This is something you both echo and you are both right to do so.

When it comes to video games, I'm sick and tired of cartoon-like villains. Give me antagonists with depth and complex motivations. Nobody is going to become a Nazi because he plays the Nazi faction in a WW2 PVP shooter game and nobody will be swayed from radical ideology through the depiction of over the top cartoon villains. Nobody will turn fascist because of a Nazi skin and an armband Swastika exactly because it doesn't mean anything.

Again you seem to fall victim to your own thesis. You state that no one is going to become a nazi because he plays a faction etc. etc. etc. You forgot the most important thing you said. You are failing to realize how easily people can fall prey to the pied piper.

I get it. History is full of grey areas and not everyone is a villain that we know as villains and not all heroes were heroes. When this is addressed in mature fiction, this can be a very interesting and enlightening concept to approach. Vonnegut's Mother Night does this phenomenally. However, this video wasn't a response to a novel or movie or even a game with a deep historically based narrative. This video was in reference to a multiplayer mode that throws context out the window and randomly assigns players as nazis. Yes, this normalizes. Yes, this is dangerous. This is the pied piper you spoke of. One of many that could lead to someone becoming increasingly more apologetic towards hateful ideologies.

I'm all for playing devil's advocate as an argumentative exercise, but, thankfully, I haven't ever trivialized forcing people (without context) into taking on the role of a nazi. To be honest, I think maybe you should think about what you are trying to accomplish here. Booksmarts and a love of history do not make one immune to naked hate and propaganda. Whose interests do you serve when you promote the normalization of nazism? Whose interests do you serve when you use terms like "social justice militants?" As a lover of history, where does this path you're going down lead you? Are you listening to the pied pipers? You can make an argument for anything. It's easy. And if you know your stuff, you can rationalize pretty much anything. I guess what I mean to say is, do you know what your endgame is?
 
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joe_zazen

Member
Surprisingly good thread.

Another point I’d like to bring up is the importance some attach to simplistic media analysis, as if pop culture media determines what people are. Simplistic examples would be no playable nazis in videogames = fewer racists in the world; or female lead in a marvel movie killing aliens with her fists....actually i am not sure what the end goal is there, maybe more female engineers in the future making baby killing rockets for the USAF, or more women fighting each other to bloody pulps in UFC instead of having families....idk.

Anyway, there is this idea that pop culture programs people, and so it is worth spending your limited time and energy fighting to ensure only certain kinds of pop culture media get made. And that it is something simple you can grasp via 144/288 characters in a tweet. ‘We won because Blackpanther made 800 million for Disney investors!”

Their intentions might be good, it is a shame they only go surface deep though. Mass media today is just as empty and power structure reinforcing as it always has been; probably more so as the global elites have more tools at their disposal to control populations than ever before. But digging into media is complex and not filled with easy entertaining answers. And if you actually threaten the power structures, you will end up like Julian Assange, tarred as a sex criminal and facing US ‘justice’. So lets get a twitter campaign for a trans poc female James Bond who kills cartoon nazis going instead.
 
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joe_zazen

Member
What does it mean to normalize Nazis?

Not sure, but maybe in the same way playing us soldiers in videogames normalises US military actions and spread of US ideology in the world? If it in fact does that. Do people identify and want to become us soldiers because of CoD, Battlefield etc? Would the same principles apply to reconstructed historical battles with Niazi, Imperial Japanese, Stalinist Communist, or other non-ideologically approved sides in conflicts? Like would playing a Stalinist soldier normalize stalinism?
 
Again, that's something that's brought up by you and the video. Strange, again, that you seem to disagree with the overall video's message. History is important and not paying it due attention is dangerous. This is something you both echo and you are both right to do so.

On the contrary, what their video represents is yet another hypersensitive take on an otherwise serious issue in order to drum up concern for outrage clicks. This sort of scaremongering is actually detrimental to the educative efforts against Nazism and other sorts of insidious ideologies.

Extra Credits is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because in their overzealous effort they raise concern where none is actually needed. They even admit to this in the comment section:

We never said that playing as a Nazi turns you into a Nazi. That’s not how that works. That’s not how any of this works.

But that's exactly what they did.

When it comes to raising awareness, overexposure can lead to saturation effects that only end up making people more hostile to your message. One only needs to take a look at the reaction they got. Telling people in a dramatic fashion that Nazis lurk underneath every rock is not a good way to go about things.

Again you seem to fall victim to your own thesis. You state that no one is going to become a nazi because he plays a faction etc. etc. etc. You forgot the most important thing you said. You are failing to realize how easily people can fall prey to the pied piper.

Sure, but if you try to identify everything and everyone as a pied piper, sooner or later people will stop listening to your warnings. If you want to raise concern, it should be well placed or you'll end up like the boy who cried wolf one too many times.

This video was in reference to a multiplayer mode that throws context out the window and randomly assigns players as nazis.

These multiplayer games are not glorifying Nazis, you're merely assigned a faction based on the historical context these games try to portray. Nothing more, nothing less. The only context that is given is that Nazis were a thing during WW2 and that they fought against the Allied forces. I don't think that games need to remind us at every turn that Nazis were bad dudes, because that is common knowledge by now. By making these WW2 shooters a taboo, Extra Credits is actually making them more attractive.

Yes, this normalizes. Yes, this is dangerous. This is the pied piper you spoke of. One of many that could lead to someone becoming increasingly more apologetic towards hateful ideologies.

First of all, Nazis are normal, in the sense that fascism is a part of human nature. Even today, radical ideology is a common problem, it's just called differently and will never go away. To deny that is to deny our very own weakness as human beings. The only way is to deal with these issues in a sane and rational manner, not drumming up panic. Second of all, there is simply no empirical evidence that this is an actual danger and that these games make somebody more apologetic towards fascism.

By the very same logic you would need to assume that the Satanic symbols in D&D games are turning people towards Satanism. No, what's dangerous is the sort of unfounded scaremongering that Extra Credits is perpetuation with their silly video.

I'm all for playing devil's advocate as an argumentative exercise, but, thankfully, I haven't ever trivialized forcing people (without context) into taking on the role of a nazi.

Assuming roles in fantasy and fiction is a healthy way to deal with issues that cannot be explored in real life. The Empire in Star Wars are nothing more than space Nazis, yet we don't forbid our children to watch these movies and to dress up as Storm Troopers or Darth Vader. I've explored lots unsavory roles in fiction and it only lead me to become a better person.

If what you are saying were truly the case, then why even stop at fascism at all? Would assuming the role of a mindless killer machine in a generic futuristic shooter not have the same effect of "normalizing" violence and murder? Of course not, because healthy educated people are able to separate fantasy from reality.

What Extra Credits is doing is essentially infantilizing their audience. I'd say that vast majority of gamers are aware that Nazis are bad, enjoying a round of conquest in Battlefield isn't gonna change that. Their video essentially amounts to nothing more than this:

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They are the equivalent of the Tipper Gores and Jack Thompsons of this world, the moral fearmongers who see the perversion of youth behind every corner and by doing so are robbing themselves of any influential means to engage with them in a constructive manner.

I guess what I mean to say is, do you know what your endgame is?

What are you insinuating here? I'm dissecting the reductive argumentation of a badly made video by a popular youtube channel about the criticism and analysis of video games.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Surprisingly good thread.

Another point I’d like to bring up is the importance some attach to simplistic media analysis, as if pop culture media determines what people are. Simplistic examples would be no playable nazis in videogames = fewer racists in the world; or female lead in a marvel movie killing aliens with her fists....actually i am not sure what the end goal is there, maybe more female engineers in the future making baby killing rockets for the USAF, or more women fighting each other to bloody pulps in UFC instead of having families....idk.

Anyway, there is this idea that pop culture programs people, and so it is worth spending your limited time and energy fighting to ensure only certain kinds of pop culture media get made. And that it is something simple you can grasp via 144/288 characters in a tweet. ‘We won because Blackpanther made 800 million for Disney investors!”

Their intentions might be good, it is a shame they only go surface deep though. Mass media today is just as empty and power structure reinforcing as it always has been; probably more so as the global elites have more tools at their disposal to control populations than ever before. But digging into media is complex and not filled with easy entertaining answers. And if you actually threaten the power structures, you will end up like Julian Assange, tarred as a sex criminal and facing US ‘justice’. So lets get a twitter campaign for a trans poc female James Bond who kills cartoon nazis going instead.

I actually disagree with your overall point here. I think there are limits to what pop culture can do when it comes to creating a narrative about something, but it does exist. Celebrities get paid millions of dollars to endorse products every year because of their influence.

And deep down I think most of us (regardless of what political side you are on) understand this to be true. There's a reason "certain" people get really upset when they notice Marvel focusing on creating more lead female roles in their movies.
Narratives aren't created by a bunch of solo acts around the globe and passed along organically. America's pop culture is probably our nations biggest export at the moment.
 

Nydus

Member
Normally I don't care for this shit but as a German, I kinda feel offended. Playing as "the Nazis" is more often then not playing as the Wehrmacht and not as SS Obersturmbannführer Judenschreck. That's, at least in my view, a big difference.

IMO it's the same as saying playing an American soldier in the Vietnam war is wrong. Don't know...this topic confuses me.
 

Saruhashi

Banned
I'm all for playing devil's advocate as an argumentative exercise, but, thankfully, I haven't ever trivialized forcing people (without context) into taking on the role of a nazi.

"forcing people (without context) into taking on the role of a nazi"

This comment really stood out to me because it doesn't really feel like the player is "forced" to take on the role of a Nazi if they have the choice in whether or not to buy the game.

I think even saying they have to take on the "role of a Nazi" is a very deliberately provocative phrase when compared to "taking on the role of a German soldier". The Extra Credits video repeats this by using statements like "fighting for the Nazis" and "wait times for Fascists".

It's deliberate re-framing of the nature of the game to make the situation seem WAY more severe than it really is.

The way you present it the player could almost be forced into missions like "guard the concentration camps" or "round up civilians and shoot them" or that the player will be asked to perform a whole list of war crimes and human rights violations.

In the game though the player is typically only going to be taking on the role of a nameless soldier with objectives like "capture the flag" etc.

You talk about context but what you are doing yourself is stripping the context of "playing as a random soldier in a WW2 battlefield" and replacing that context with "taking on the role of a Nazi".

If you take a scenario like "if you buy our PvP game set in WW2 you will experience historically authentic battlefields" then I think the potential player will inherently know that the PvP scenarios will be Allies vs Axis and they could be on either side.

However if you twist that scenario into "you will be forced to take on the role of a Nazi" then that sounds like a very VERY different game.


I don't think yourself or Extra Credits really established how WW2 games help to normalize Nazis, to what extent they help to normalize and how dangerous that could actually be.

Instead you took games that put the player into a historic battlefield as a random soldier and then tried to expand that into a completely different and more detailed context.

I could maybe understand the argument if we were talking about a management sim or something like that where the player is expect to take some role in managing an evil dictatorship and being asked to perform tasks like genocide etc. PvP multiplayer like Battlefield isn't that though.
 
Yeah, games can do better, but not in the way that Extra Credits demands... on the contrary!
Thanks!

Nobody likes it when they look in the mirror and the reflection scares them.

Those on the current extreme left fall prey to the same shortcomings than the Nazis of yore did, their willingness to "do the necessary" in order to build what they define as a better society gives them free reign to unleash their lowest instincts without questions. This is why they wil not accept any kind of normal representation of their stated enemy (let's be real there aren't that many real Nazis out there, and when they dare show up there are at least 10 times as many protesters).

Thanos is a reaction to the cartoonifying. filmmakers want to seem clever, look how deep we are being, yet nothing is interrogated with any seriousness.
I didn't think that Thanos was presented as a very good guy, his motivations weren't that strong. However, it's not as if his actions went without interrogation or resistance as you seem to imply, I mean he is the bad guy.

When people talk about humanizing Nazis, Hitler, etc. they don't refer about giving the guy a hard time sleeping (I'm sure he did not lose sleep over the decisions he took to exterminate millions of people, because in his head he was convinced he was doing the right thing - being too sure of yourself and loving your ideas if the problem). No, a film like The Bunker (2001) was accused of humanizing the top Nazis, which should tell you a lot about the people who do that kind of critict - you see a disconnected leader, with a bunch of yes men presented in a realistic manner, at this point in the was they do look miserable and disconnected - they even sent German kids to fight the invasion - sure some will see themselves in this, but I feel it's better to know you may fall in the same traps as your fellow humans than act as if you are above it all because some University teacher gave the class a trigger warning before talking about some mean people.
 
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The left has take. McCarthyism to the extreme. Ironically, it turns out that McCarthy was right all along and it eventually led us to the shit we see today where everyone right of Stalin in America is a nazi.
 

GreyHorace

Member
What they're doing is, in analogy, not punishing and marganlizing Nazis, Nazi sympathizers or even the producers of such messages, but of the audience who can and does have a different interpretation than intended.
That's the irony of this whole thing. SJWs think the general audience are a bunch of idiots who don't know any better. And it's their job to 'educate' the unwashed masses and cure them of their ignorance. But this episode with ExtraCredits just proves that they don't know shit, and the general audience are much more savvy than they give them credit for.
 

zenspider

Member
That's the irony of this whole thing. SJWs think the general audience are a bunch of idiots who don't know any better. And it's their job to 'educate' the unwashed masses and cure them of their ignorance. But this episode with ExtraCredits just proves that they don't know shit, and the general audience are much more savvy than they give them credit for.

In an odd turn, the responses on "less bigots.. dislikes are engagement" give me hope: they are unanimously critical of EC's doubling down, regardless of where they ostensibly fall on the political spectrum.

I too don't give people enough credit.
 

petran79

Banned
Unlike the Nuremberg Nazi trials though, A. Eichman was abducted by Israeli intelligence from Argentine. That constituted also a breach of the rights of a sovereign nation.
This also strained Israel-Argentine relations and threatened the Argentine Jews who became victims of terror attacks and anti-semitimism, also organized by Eichman's sons
It should have taken an international law route instead of risky manouvres.
 

radewagon

Member
I think even saying they have to take on the "role of a Nazi" is a very deliberately provocative phrase when compared to "taking on the role of a German soldier". The Extra Credits video repeats this by using statements like "fighting for the Nazis" and "wait times for Fascists".

It's deliberate re-framing of the nature of the game to make the situation seem WAY more severe than it really is.

The way you present it the player could almost be forced into missions like "guard the concentration camps" or "round up civilians and shoot them" or that the player will be asked to perform a whole list of war crimes and human rights violations.

In the game though the player is typically only going to be taking on the role of a nameless soldier with objectives like "capture the flag" etc.

You talk about context but what you are doing yourself is stripping the context of "playing as a random soldier in a WW2 battlefield" and replacing that context with "taking on the role of a Nazi".

You are making the assumption that for the average american, the distinction between German soldier and nazi is a clear one. I get that you are educated enough to understand the difference and so the casual use of linking the two bothers you as you see it as just ignorant fear mongering, but you may want to consider what the experience for the typical player of this game will be. The situation for many people is going to be to think, "oh, this match, I'm the nazis." Not, "this match i'm a conscripted German who is ideologically opposed to the antisemitic leanings of the nazi party." Is it possible that you are refusing to see the situation through any lens other than that of your own life's experiences? Those experiences have given you a perspective that is counter to the typical more generalized understanding of the conflict during World War II. This is a good thing, but one that you should take into account as being the exception and not the rule when it comes to the player base of a multiplayer FPS game.

You say that I am stripping away context but I, personally, am not the one doing that. The context is already stripped by the game. What I am doing is taking that stripping to a more logical conclusion than everyone here that is assuming that players of these games are all history hobbiests that understand the nuances between being a German soldier vs. SS.
 
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