The Government actually does. The rights of the parents do not trump the rights of the children, and this child has the right not to suffer and to a dignified death. When there is a conflict between individuals and their rights, the Government acts through courts and the judicial system.
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Against his parents wishes, terminally ill infant will be allowed to die
- Thread starter Kadin
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The Government actually does. The rights of the parents do not trump the rights of the children, and this child has the right not to suffer and to a dignified death. When there is a conflict between individuals and their rights, the Government acts through courts and the judicial system.
yeah but what if like the kids sensory receptors are BACKWAYS and he actually thrives on it? Checkmate murderous post birth abortionists
off duty ninja
Member
I am not aware how measuring that brainwave activity tells us how it actually feels to be in that state.
This is a very good point and one I would absolutely consider if this were my child.
Another very good point and ultimately I do agree with letting go in this situation. I just can't help but interject my life experience with my son over the last 10 years into this scenario.
It's not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. First of all, the procedure would be beyond experimental, as it hasn't even begun animal trials yet. Trying it on humans at this point is so far beyond the realm of medical ethics I'm surprised it was even considered in the first place. Second, if it was even successful it would only solve a miniscule part of the problem. To use a somewhat crass analogy it would be like using bug spray to kill the termites in a house that has already collapsed. Restoring the function of the mitochondriae in his cells would only allow the cells that are still alive to produce their own energy. It would do absolutely nothing to the tissue that's already dead. From what I understand of this case his brain is so damaged that it can't even uphold the most critical life support systems on its own. He would never even be able to breathe by himself, let alone actually being able to form his own cognition.
And you've severely misunderstood just how the field of medicine works. Patients and doctors are not equal in the decision-making process. We hold patient autonomy extremely highly, but at the end of the day we are the experts. You have the absolute right to deny treatment (as long as you're not mentally compromised by way of psychosis or similar), and in many countries you also have the absolute right to demand medical aid. What you don't have is the right to demand any and every treatment you can think of. Contrary to what you may believe most doctors genuinely only want what's best for their patients, and in some cases that includes making the medically informed decision to end treatment, even if that means that the patient dies. We only do this if there's genuinely nothing else that can feasibly be done, or when it's judged that the suffering of the patient far outweigh any potential benefits.
Medical ethics are complex and often heartwrenching. And we have to live with the decisions we make every day, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't reduce us to some shadowy demonic cabal out to kill children in front of their parents.
This is just nonsense. Think it through.
It's no longer the parents who carry sole responsibility for this child. It partly falls on the physicians, nurses, judges and ethics boards, which are currently the only reason why this boy is still technically kept 'alive' through machines. No-one is going to support these parents in the decision to needlessly extend a child's suffering when any kind of recovery or functional state is simply not among the possibilities.
Look, I feel the deepest of sympathies for these parents. No parent should ever have to bury their child. But we've simply reached the very limits of what medicine can do in this situation. It's time for them to let go.
That's the question here. At some point, does treating your child's horrible illness cross a line to where it becomes inhumane to keep putting them through the treatment process when they're just not getting any better? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, it depends entirely on the situation.
For example, a couple I know have a five year-old boy who was diagnosed with Rhabdomyosarcoma - a very rare cancer of the skeletal muscles. For the last four years straight, the kid has been receiving intensive radiation and chemotherapy. Just last week he had to have a brain tumor removed, and he's only five. His mom posts updates on his condition on their Facebook page - and lately she has absolutely been pondering if it's worth continuing to put her son through more torturous rounds of chemo and radiation if there's no guarantee he'll get any better (which there isn't). He's a little guy and all of this has taken a tole on him, mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. It's a decision no parent should ever have to make, but like I said, at some point you have to wonder if the more humane thing to do is to just let the child go.
Kinda proving his point what that post there.
Cheezus said:
Agreed with this. Feels like the right decision, but glad I didn't have to make it.
I'm not reducing doctors to anything. I think they are doing their job and making a call they believe to be the right one. That's fine. At the end of the day, though, I don't think the final decision lies in their hands because of the chance, however slim, that the child has at the opinion of another doctor. I've made that abundantly clear from the beginning.
Dorsal Axe
Member
I doubt even if this happened that Charlie would be allowed to be moved overseas. He requires extensive intervention to sustain his life, and the very journey itself would cause considerable distress and quite possibly kill him.
There is no chance of survival with the procedure that hadn't even been tested on humans yet.
LostCaress
Member
Would you feed the kid a diet of raw eggs on the chance he gets cured? That also has a greater than zero chance of working.
IrishNinja
Member
i'm a huge proponent of euthanasia...but yeah, i echo these posts. i can't imagine making the call if it was my own.
Vincent Grayson
Member
It's pretty awful, this whole thing.
But I can't help being extra disgusted by the American right on this one, as they bend over backwards to try and save one little white kid from the UK who is overwhelmingly likely to die no matter what while simultaneously working to strip health care from millions of people here.
But I can't help being extra disgusted by the American right on this one, as they bend over backwards to try and save one little white kid from the UK who is overwhelmingly likely to die no matter what while simultaneously working to strip health care from millions of people here.
A persons opinion on this issue is basically an IQ test.
It's fairies versus reality.
The US would offer treatment because they'd make $$$.
The same motivation as the right wing media involvement. It's shameful, exploitative and only making the eventual outcome for the parents worse.
It's fairies versus reality.
The US would offer treatment because they'd make $$$.
The same motivation as the right wing media involvement. It's shameful, exploitative and only making the eventual outcome for the parents worse.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Pretty sure the family has raised over £300k so far, that's probably what they are interested in.
http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/latest-...man-great-ormond-street-hospital-22-july-2017
Also - The Guardian had an article about how the case has been hijacked for political causes.
Also II, apparently Charlie Gard was given U.S. citzenship
Also - The Guardian had an article about how the case has been hijacked for political causes.
Also II, apparently Charlie Gard was given U.S. citzenship
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
The doctor offering that treatment seems to be there only for the profits and publicity, and the harassment of hospital staff is apalling.
The kid getting US citizenship is unsurprising, this is a fight between medical ethics and extreme right "muh freedom" insanity.
The kid was in hands of the hospital and subject to EU law, and the hospital and ECHR decided not to hand him over to doctor overseas because they deemed it would only harm the kid. This is the same as ignoring the wishes of insane religious parents who reject blood transfusions. I get the parents are not insane here, but the patient's parents do not make the calls since they are not experts.
Ffs the kid's brain was as good as a scrambled egg, damaged beyond any repair.
The kid getting US citizenship is unsurprising, this is a fight between medical ethics and extreme right "muh freedom" insanity.
The kid was in hands of the hospital and subject to EU law, and the hospital and ECHR decided not to hand him over to doctor overseas because they deemed it would only harm the kid. This is the same as ignoring the wishes of insane religious parents who reject blood transfusions. I get the parents are not insane here, but the patient's parents do not make the calls since they are not experts.
Ffs the kid's brain was as good as a scrambled egg, damaged beyond any repair.
Earthbound64
Banned
F*** people.
Earthbound64
Banned
That's you, deciding about yourself.
Other people would prefer not to be subjected to torture.
Other people would prefer not to have a child subjected to torture.
And, this conversation has been had numerous times in the past 350+ posts and the past 3+ weeks.
PingPongvonLaserstein
Member
Absolute best case scenario, the treatment isn't a cure. It doesn't really even offer any meaningful improvement. If everything goes perfectly, it might briefly prolong the kid's life, such as it is, and suffering.
funkystudent
Member
Such a horrible situation all round.
I can also understand the doctors and judge point of view that the child has suffered enough and its best to stop prolonging his life.
I can understand where the parents are coming from. I would probably fight tooth a nail for a slim change for my child too.
Its messed up. Its a clash of the purely logical and the purely emotional.
I can also understand the doctors and judge point of view that the child has suffered enough and its best to stop prolonging his life.
I can understand where the parents are coming from. I would probably fight tooth a nail for a slim change for my child too.
Its messed up. Its a clash of the purely logical and the purely emotional.
The poor child is beyond level of any kind of meaningful help. Realistically he's at the point where it's about enabling the most dignified and painless death possible. Medically that's where he's objectively at hence the correct intent to enable a managed end to his suffering.
It's so sad it's become needlessly political and his clearly frazzled patents put into a position making it even harder for them to make the right - but horrifically tough for them - decision.
I just hope it's all over soon before they end up even more fucked up psychologically and the poor kid has to suffer on much further.
It's so sad it's become needlessly political and his clearly frazzled patents put into a position making it even harder for them to make the right - but horrifically tough for them - decision.
I just hope it's all over soon before they end up even more fucked up psychologically and the poor kid has to suffer on much further.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Grrr... What the fuck is wrong with these people? Absolutely infuriating.
So much for the loving pro-life huh
You haven't read a fucking thing have you?
What if there was 0% chance of cure and 100% chance of simply prolonging existing suffering?
The other doctor already stated that it would just prevent future damage and would not repair any damage already done,
AKA he would be extremely brain damaged beyond the point of self-survival.
Linkstrikesback
Member
There is not a cure for what this child has.
Just read the thread, this argument has happened already.
And I'm fed of up people saying you can't have empathy or understand simply because you don't have a child. Were you a complete psychopath before you had a child or something? And the ability to care about other human beings only appeared then?
Earthbound64
Banned
Of course they haven't.
Neither has this person - because here we go again.
Did you read anything about the case before typing this post?
I seem to recall a lot of posts and threads here that contain similar verbiage of "you can't understand unless..." that many agree with.
And no. I wasn't a complete psychopath. But there is a change to your internal workings when you become a parent. If there isn't, you're probably not a very good one.
Pesmerga00
Member
Yeah a .000000001% chance of living, while not being able to move, see, eat, or even breath on their own
Yes, your testosterone level drops if you're a man.
The idea that people cease all rational function and have some sort of singular instinct take over when they become parents is ridiculous.
That's insane. It's time to go. Period.
Parents should do what's best for their child and quality of life. If you weren't a child and your quality of life will be a complete vegetable wouldn't you want to move on?
Do you lose the ability to read a thread before posting when you have a child?
Yep he has suffered enough. The longer this goes on the less sympathy I have for the parents as they're making nuisances of themselves and putting an unnecessary burden on GOSH in terms of resources and the harassment that staff are having to endure.
How odd. I have two children and would let either of them go if they were in Gard's position. The kid isn't getting cured. People really need to assimilate the context. There's no cure. He's horribly brain damaged already and his on going quality of life is basically zero. He's being kept alive for no good reason nor purpose despite this because his parents are faltering to make what is undoubtably the toughest choice you could face as a parent (and hopefully would never have to) even though it's the only choice that affords him an end to suffering.
It's a shame his parents can't let him go but they're not making the best or right choices on his behalf.
As for the threats - both to staff and the patents - that's just stupid idiots who have no actually say nor should have any say in the matter. How I'd love them to trace some down and charge and convict them.
You've got to be fucking kidding me. These stupid fucking people.
And it seems like there's still idiots in this very thread who refuses to be educated about the situation. Just pure fucking ignorance when the facts are right there. Right in front of you. It takes all of five minutes to be informed about this and yet here we are with the "if you don't have a kid you wouldn't understand" or the "if there is a chance of survival I'd take it" bullshit. Fucking read. It's not hard people.
People can be fucking disgusting sometimes.
All of this. Yup.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40685461
Is it any surprise that dickheads are sending death threats when the parents are screaming abuse in court and denying the evidence of the brain damage?
Is it any surprise that dickheads are sending death threats when the parents are screaming abuse in court and denying the evidence of the brain damage?
These fucking parents
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