Rushersauce
Banned
Enmmm in Chile that's not niche, it's the rule. Milk and meat are from grass fed cows.
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"Aggressive vegans" are putting off people from changing eating habits, study finds
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
Please continue to show your ass on this topic
I don't know you. Maybe you are a really nice dude, but in that specific regard: yeah, I'd say, your eating habits are terrible.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
You won't find any disagreement from me regarding this. I think animal inputs are absolutely necessary for healthy land sustainability, but feed lots and industrial cattle raising is devastating on many fronts. The poop is toxic, growing water intense crops like wheat, corn and soybeans to feed them is wasteful, and using nitrogen fertilizers to restore nutrients is just a nightmare. But if more and more farms transitioned to sustainable models, we'd all be better off for it I'd imagine.
Land doesn't exist in isolation of just animals, or just plants, you need both for cultivating healthy biodiversity, and I think we would do ourselves a huge favor by limiting animal consumption to just animals used in this manner.
Nintendo's Witch
Member
Seriously though just let people eat whatever they want, vegan or not vegan.
EnlightenedMint
Member
I wonder how many of these people have experienced these aggressive vegans personally, rather than second hand or just believe this stereotype that emerged that vegans are assholes.
Peoples, if you know something can we get some citations in here please? I know this is rich coming from someone who was too lazy to earlier ITT, but I am lazy...
You now what, it's the exact opposite of that in my experience.
Almost every time someone new finds out I'm vegan it comes with a sarky comment, joke, or mockery.
Ill be happy to report many more case of "Oh, I want to be vegan too!" are popoing up, but most comments are the former.
I dread dinner parties because of this. Guaranteed topic of conversation, sometimes with a person who has data/arguments ready to counter my assumed preaching. I've been dragged into debates a few times, it's quite annoying especially when I'm watching everyone else eat delicious, delicious meat...
obviously we should be allowed to eat stupid people
surely I don't need a "/s" on that?
Costa Kid
Member
I think this stereotypical aggressive vegan does put a lot of people off becoming vegan. I also feel like being a vegetarian is more feasible than a full on vegan.
One of my friends is vegan and we went into Costa Coffee once and there was literally not one piece of food that they had that was vegan-safe, and they had a lot of food, plus they had run out of soy milk. So she ended up sitting there while I drank my coffee.
Being vegan is a real commitment, but I think I'd be able to become a vegetarian since I don't really like meat anyway.
One of my friends is vegan and we went into Costa Coffee once and there was literally not one piece of food that they had that was vegan-safe, and they had a lot of food, plus they had run out of soy milk. So she ended up sitting there while I drank my coffee.
Being vegan is a real commitment, but I think I'd be able to become a vegetarian since I don't really like meat anyway.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, 94% of the virtual water counted for meat production is rain.
Rushersauce
Banned
I have. But I've also known those who are cool, and they are the rule, not the exception.
How would you feel if I told you that by eating meat and dairy products you are contributing towards the pain and suffering of living beings that can feel pain? Do you feel it is okay to mass breed, torture and slaughter animals?
You are annoyed at vegans for caring about animals. Vegans are annoyed at you for allowing animals to be bred purely to be tortured and slaughtered.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
OK, I see. I'm not too familiar with practices in other countries. I'm pretty sure that in the USA most dairy is from grain fed sources.
http://www.beefmagazine.com/pasture...hallenges-opportunity-and-few-fringe-benefits
It's growing, but still a minority.
1. I'm their predator. Just because we've created a symbiotic relationship with our prey known as animal husbandry/domestication doesn't mean that they aren't still animals I eat.
2. Life is suffering. Everything dies eventually and gets eaten by something else. If a human doesn't kill that healthy adult cow and eat it the cow will instead die for some other reason and be fed on by insects, bacteria, etc.. I don't see the moral issue with being first in line.
3. Sure, there are definitely things we can do to improve the methods by which livestock are handled. Having grown up as one of the last sources of free labor for my grandparents family farm I can absolutely vouch for the quality differences in the products produced from well cared for animals versus those that come from mass market, poorly managed livestock "factories". That said, the eco-documentary depiction of the livestock industry is about as honest as the depiction you'll get from a meat packaging company, just from the opposite side.
4. The ecological ramifications are absurdly overstated. Case in point, most livestock water usage studies ignores that water usage will invariably wind up back in the water cycle, precipitating back down to us. The solution to greater access to potable water isn't to stop raising as much livestock, it's to stop polluting good sources of potable water and to stop impeding the water cycle via chemical emissions (a lot of which has already been curbed via the clean air act, to be fair).
Mammoth Jones
Member
I mean sure but thats different than "you're a morally bad person for eating meat." You can argue the health angle all the live long day but the moral thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I mean put em down as quick as possible. But yea I support eating meat. Had a hamburger for lunch. Shit was dope. I did have some veggies with it to balance it out.
They're breed for their meat. If not their numbers would never even be that high. And I'm pretty sure some of them would be extinct.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
as someone who eats meat, i often see meat eaters complaining about aggressive/annoying vegans/vegetarians, but seldom if ever actually see any of those ghastly veg eaters. it just feels like a lot of insecure meat eaters on some level feel bad about their choice of lifestyle and have created a vegan bogeyman as a defense mechanism.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
I've only met one vegan and she was annoying as hell. She would try to make me change. Idk why, I couldn't give a shit less about what others eat tbh.
I think that's the core of it. Meat eaters are way more likely to grill (ha!) vegans than the other way.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
The problem with veganism is, you only see privileged, mostly white people advocating for it. Telling everyone they have the high moral ground because they buy 3 organic gluten-free veggie burgers and tofu and tons of recipe books and fancy breads and whatnot.
And, in the end, the fact that you guys can afford and decide to buy that doesn't make you morally superior, because it's easy. You just happen to have money.
But many people have much more urgent problems and simply cannot afford it economically, or in terms of time and effort, and even then there is no proof that being vegan turns you into a super healthy uber being, but quite the opposite.
That is before factoring in that some people are unlucky enough to have dietary allergies and, you know, they may need meat or dairy for their proteins.
So please, get off your high horse, and stop the bootstraps preaching.
Edit: as many people have quoted before, the pseudoscientific claims of meat production destroying the environments are bullshit, herbivore animals are the planet's most efficient machines at producing protein from bloody grass. Plants that carry the necessary calories and proteins for sustaining human life require heavy irrigation and pose many infrastructure problems, especially in arid countries, that is before the heavy pesticide use and the living nightmare of relying on a soy monoculture.
And, in the end, the fact that you guys can afford and decide to buy that doesn't make you morally superior, because it's easy. You just happen to have money.
But many people have much more urgent problems and simply cannot afford it economically, or in terms of time and effort, and even then there is no proof that being vegan turns you into a super healthy uber being, but quite the opposite.
That is before factoring in that some people are unlucky enough to have dietary allergies and, you know, they may need meat or dairy for their proteins.
So please, get off your high horse, and stop the bootstraps preaching.
Edit: as many people have quoted before, the pseudoscientific claims of meat production destroying the environments are bullshit, herbivore animals are the planet's most efficient machines at producing protein from bloody grass. Plants that carry the necessary calories and proteins for sustaining human life require heavy irrigation and pose many infrastructure problems, especially in arid countries, that is before the heavy pesticide use and the living nightmare of relying on a soy monoculture.
When was the lasted time you actually acted like a predator and didn't buy pre-killed meat?
And if you're an anomaly here, answer the question for the average person.
We don't exist within the food chain any more.
We used to kill and eat them out of necessity, it's getting less and less necessary.
Sorry, but saying "things die anyway" as an excuse for suffering is just a shitty position to take.
Citations or something more if you're going to make a claim like this please, or I'm just ignoring it until I've read up more. It's been a few years since I have properly, things will probably have changes since then.
Again, if you're going to make these claims then links would be good.
Astral Dog
Member
Still more than less so whatever
this is the exact same rationale as saying diversity and affirmative action caused trump
i eat meat all the time... but i KNOW im the morally hypocritical one and i have nothing but respect for staunch vegans. also i feel like the aggressive vegan is a fucking myth that meat eaters use as a straw man to paint veganism as elitist when its actually completely egalitarian and a completely reasonable partial solution to climate change.
i eat meat all the time... but i KNOW im the morally hypocritical one and i have nothing but respect for staunch vegans. also i feel like the aggressive vegan is a fucking myth that meat eaters use as a straw man to paint veganism as elitist when its actually completely egalitarian and a completely reasonable partial solution to climate change.
illusionspark
Member
Life is suffering. Everything dies eventually and gets eaten by something else. If a human doesn't kill that healthy adult human and eat it the human will instead die for some other reason and be fed on by insects, bacteria, etc.. I don't see the moral issue with being first in line.
Hmm...
Beans and rice are pretty damn cheap.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
That's awesome!
It's not a myth, but it doesn't exist in the vast amount of cases you get online of people reacting badly to veganism, that's for sure.
Sorry if that's what you were implying.
I guess you've never actually tired a vegan diet then?
My dinners for the last few nights have not only supplied all the nutrition I need but have been far cheaper than meat based ones.
Some areas of the world simply don't have access to the food stuffs, supplements, etc... and that's absolutely fine. I understand many of us are privileged. We're not blind to that stuff. Please.
Suggesting poor people in places /with/ access couldn't eat Vegan healthily and cheaply is just nonsense.
You realize that these two points also justify, like... every single crime, right? "I admit that I murdered my family but, in my defense, life is suffering and eventually they would have died anyways."
what a load of crap, the only vegans i know are fucking struggling students who are lucky to eat something that isnt beans
Much of this is due to convenience. Processed food is much easier but it is not necessarily cheaper. You are promoting processed food for poorer people when you should be looking and promoting a healthier lifestyle for these people. Processed food is killing people, not helping them eat for cheaper.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Contributing directly? Fucking delusional bullshit right there.
I feel like with the amount of people that know an angry vegan/vegetarian either half the worlds population should be vegan/vegetarian, everyone's talking about the same 5 people or they are liars.
The only vegan I know of I found out because I kept offering them non vegan food and asked why they never wanted anything.
The only vegan I know of I found out because I kept offering them non vegan food and asked why they never wanted anything.
It's pretty easy to google with a search of "life expectancy corrected for infant mortality".
It's been trending up, but one example using recent history is that almost all of the increase in U.S. lifespans since 1907 are almost a 1:1 ratio with major improvements in infant mortality.
In fact, according to my anthropologist wife human lifespan basically took a small swing downward with the shit from hunter/gatherer to agrarian lifestyles (believed to be a result of rapid decline in diet diversity but also likely tied to early territorial conflict, disease contraction due to grouping, etc.), then it all gets lost in a big haze of group X wanting to murder all of group Y and group A having this disease they've slowly developed some resistance to over generations then introducing it to group B who gets fucking decimated by it. Then we come out the other side of all that and people still more or less live the same length if nothing kills them before they simply get too old and break down.
Most biologists I've spoken with on the subject attribute how long you live more to genetics than to anything else. Not eating meat is adding a wrinkle your ancestors likely didn't introduce so who knows (so is just about everything else we do too), but chances are unless something external comes along to fuck you up you'll live roughly as long as the grandparent you caught the most dominant biological traits from.
If you want to take an illogically reductive bent to it, sure. That's where nihilists come from.
Or you an apply reasonable biological and social paradigms to get to a real answer. Everything is a hierarchy of wants and needs. Humans only differ in that we spend a lot of time thinking about what those are cognitively.
For example, I'm a firm believer in binary morality: there is no moral "good" (zero) only moral "bad" (one). A bad moral act is anything that infringes upon another person's freedom of choice without provocation.
So a dude sitting around his house smoking meth isn't doing anything morally wrong as long as he's single, has no children, and no one is dependent upon him in a meaningful fashion. When he decides to hop in his car all lit up he made a morally "bad" choice in that he's entering the public space unfit to operate the dangerous piece of machinery he chose to shamble his way into. When he runs a stoplight and mows down 10 kids getting off a school bus he didn't just instantly pass into the "bad" area, he was in the "bad" area since the first choice that put others at risk.
But then the quantification games begin with everything and so some bad is inevitable for all people. Kind of a corollary to the Christian concept of original sin, but not dumped on you as soon as you are born, but instead a constant negative stream you inflict on the world every day you're alive.
As for how that pertains to animals, well, they're my food. I'm their predator. Me eating them is no more morally reprehensible than a pack of wolves eating them. That's how a food chain works. If cows and pigs didn't want to be food they should hurry up and evolve cognitive thought. Then (maybe) I'd stop eating them.
Lonewulfeus
Member
Yea why would we have teeth for ripping and cutting if we aren't supposed to eat meat?
wow do you hate being reminded that the steak you just ate wasnt anesthetized before its brains got bashed in? too many people saying if i dont eat it someone else would is exactly why the meat industry isnt shrinking when it could if enough people abandoned the mindset
This is kinda silly.
I see plenty of POC of various backgrounds at the local vegan restaurants in Dallas. Almost all of them are ran by asians of various origins.
Meat isn't cheap.
You're saying that paying for a dead animal that has likely suffered through its whole life is not directly contributing to a system that mass breeds, tortures and slaughters animals for financial gain? Erm...you are contributing whether you like it or not. You need to deal with that instead of going into denial.
Meat is made out of dead animals, fam. Those animals feel pain.
Plenty of people lived to their 60s in the Middle Ages. The misconception that people were only living to middle age in olden days comes from misunderstanding what the average life expectancy means, and the fact that it was heavily weighted by the atrocious infant and mother mortality rates of those eras.
But, as people pointed out earlier, the "what did olden days people do" is a terrible argument for anything now. We as humans owe our ascendancy in part to our omnivorous diets, but that's not really an argument for the ethics or utility of meat-eating now.
Life expectancy and quality of life went way down when people moved from hunter-gathering to fixed agriculture, but agriculture was necessary to form modern society as we know it. Again, that's not an argument for hunter-gathering now.
Rice and beans are cheaper, but you can get chicken where I am for $0.79/0.99 a pound. Red meat is expensive.
stop ruining his narrative
HiredN00bs
Member
Can you name one species that is so cavalier about being slaughtered or eaten?
Jacksinthe
Banned
An old friend of mine routinely lectured others on eating meat. At a birthday party once she charged from across the yard literally screaming bloody murder because her 4 year old daughter reached for a hot dog. No joke - yelling at the top of her lungs for her daughter to drop the hot dog because it "causes cancer and will kill you". She said that. Screaming. To a child. When she got up screaming my head spun and my first instinct was to jump and scan the yard for fucking threats like a wild animal, crazed gunman or fucking Cthulu that's how jarring it was. Everybody freaked out thinking something bad just happened or was in the process of happening.
At a recent wedding we sat at a table with a vegan who made damn well sure we knew she was vegan, who let us know the horrors of eating meat, who hinted that we were less human somehow for ordering the chicken and was pompous and proud about being vegan.
I wish I was fucking joking about both experiences but I have a lot more than that :|
There's definitely something to the meme "How can you tell if someone's vegan? Don't worry they'll fucking tell you!" that holds some water. I have plenty of other vegan friends who AREN'T complete shitbags but if I had to score vegans vs omnivores in terms of being a dick about what you eat it would be about 10-0 vegans just from personal experience. None of my meat eating friends boast about eating meat in the same way SOME vegans boast about their superiority to other humans for being vegan.
Asshole vegans exist and plenty of people have been talked down to by them. No need to pretend they are phantoms of the mind when there's been plenty of discussions about the "holier than thou" attitude a small portion of vegans crown themselves with. This shit isn't new.
goldenpp72
Member
It certainly makes me less caring, most vegans i've met are total assholes at the dinner table, but if they just have a personal preference and that's it, no issues.
Well, why do I need to google when I have lovely knowledgeable people like you to do the work for me!
Thank you, that was insightful. I'll look into it at some point.
My grandmother is 90.
My grandfather died in his 60s.
Hopefully the middle.
if only they didnt have conviction that animals suffer needlessly while humans would be healthier without
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You're not part of the food chain?
Also we do. We may be or may be not apex predators but we still do participate in the food chain if other animals eat humans which they do.
You need to understand that you are giving two anecdotes about people called "assholes"
You cannot track the number of vegetarians and vegans who you have met that said nothing. I assure you that if you asked a few vegans or vegetarians in good faith their stories of antagonising assholes bugging them would faaaaaaaaar outweigh yours.
I'm not equating this to bigotry, but the world would be a lot better if people stopped using memes and two dickheads to shape their view of people in general.
I'm not a vegan, and I'm fine with people eating meat responsibly and ethically, but people who say "I don't like X because I met a mean one" are fucking dorks. No way around it and no excuse for it.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
I eat local, and the local sources here do not abuse their animals or make them suffer. The animals are reared and killed without causing any undue suffering.
Prove my food suffered. Just don't make up bullshit and believe it. Prove it. You're making the claim here. Mass breeding and slaughter can be and is done without suffering and cruelty.
Man you must not have a Facebook account with a bunch of friends from high school that turned into anti-vaxxing holistic parents. Aggressive vegans exist and they're incredibly insufferable.
I mean, we're not part of the natural food chain, we're not hunter gathers, we're not out there hunting.
We exist above every animal and many of us are in a position where killing them isn't anywhere near necessary.
Please educate me if I'm being stupid about something here.
How do you count the people you didn't know were vegans when you met them because they didn't say anything?
This has been my experience, too, after dating a few vegans/vegetarians and marrying one. I myself am not vegan or vegetarian and they largely haven't cared. I've a bunch of friends that are vegan or vegetarian, too. They get far more backlash if/when people find out about it. They actively dread going to family gatherings and stuff because usually they get the lecture about how awesome meat is.
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