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[onQ123]

Thread got more replies than the Digital Foundry PS5 thread within 24 hours

 

[LordKasual]

Look at this thread lol....Just look at it.

It literally does not matter what what the source is.

Fanboys are gonna fanboy.


What's the point of even posting creditable developer interviews/accounts? People are going to deny them and make up their own narrative no matter what you do.

Im sure the dude deleted his twitter due to the inevitable torrent of rage he's gotten from fanboys who are desperate to out him as a Sony shill for giving his own professional opinion.

 

[Sushen]

I'm really getting sick of these empty promises. Show us God damn games and we consumers decide what is better.

Stop dictating what we should think.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm really getting sick of these empty promises. Show us God damn games and we consumers decide what is better.

Stop dictating what we should think.

They will show I believe after the marketing for TLOU2 and GoT ends.

After that they will 100% focus in marketing PS5 games.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Isn´t that a fallacy and an oxymoron at the same time? A fanboy can be neutral?

fanboy făn′boi″

• n.
  A boy or man who is ardently devoted to a single hobby or interest.
• n.
  Someone (normally male) who is utterly devoted to a single subject or hobby, often to the point where it is considered an obsession.

Lol I mean I'm a fan of both (or all if you include Nintendo), hence 'neutral fan'. I like a lot about all three of them, but I also try keeping it honest between them, too.

Nintendo's not really factoring into this for now unless they come clean with that Switch 2, which probably won't be this year.

 

[ShadowWolf712]

Yeah, after seeing his twitter feed, I'm sure it's because of that.

The Twitter feed where you kinda misrepresented one of his Tweets and neglected to note he was holding a game he developed?

 

[Jon Neu]

The Twitter feed where you kinda misrepresented one of his Tweets and neglected to note he was holding a game he developed?

A PS4 game when he could literally have shown anything?

Yeah, I’m sure his incesant pool of playstation tweets while ignoring the other platforms are a misrepresentation.

He is actually pretty objective.

 

[ShadowWolf712]

A PS4 game when he could literally have shown anything?

Yeah, I’m sure his incesant pool of playstation tweets while ignoring the other platforms are a misrepresentation.

He is actually pretty objective.

You're as bad as the fanboys that freaked out on Respawn for showing the PS4 disc of Titanfall 2. lmao

The guy says he doesn't even own a PS4 in his tweets, had to play Journey pre-PC at an internet cafe. Certainly not what you've been implying.

 

[K.N.W.]

There's a Ryzen 9 processor at 4.3GHz delivering comparable and, in some cases better performance, than an Intel i9 at 5GHz. Why? Efficiency.

Numbers tell a story, yes, but not all of it.

In bechmarks the 12 core Ryzen 9 3900x has more power grunt, but performance also depends on how said game/applications is written:



If you watch these videos, most of the games run better on the 8 core i9, because having lots of cores is becoming the norm only since the last 2 years, many developers are stil catching up with the new tech. This is due also to the fact that all the games, excluding Sony's and Nintendo's (I forgot that Nintendo still isn't using 8 cores) ones, are meant to run also on PC, where, accoring to Steam's surveys, most of the users only have 4 cores. This makes me wonder, wouldn't multiplatform games have to target the low numbered CUs/Cuda Cores GTX 1060/1050/1050ti/RX 580?
Let me address this more, before I get eaten alive, I don't believe that having a higher frequency would let PS5 GPU become stronger than it actually is, but it might help in the much talked system stabilty and efficiency departements, until high count core/units GPUs become the norm.

 

[Mod of War]

Knock off the childish insults and antagonizing, or site removals will take place.

 

[Rick Dangerous]

I don't care what you believe, hardware exists agnostic of your beliefs.

You guys are basically trying to tell me right now that a 2080 Super is superior to a 2080 Ti, that's the level of nonsense that has encapsulated these discussion.

Looks like you have a problem reading properly : he just says that one system is better engeneered than the other with better api and better overall balance. The other is more bruteforce oriented and less pleasant to work with as a coder. But i'm sure there will be some good games on xsx. Maybe not on ps5 level but good nonetheless. So everyone can be happy.

 

[existensmaximum]

No. XBO has an OS with two hypervisors, one for apps and one for games. And the OS used is a customized version based on Windows called Xbox OS.

XSX will probably be using a similar setup but the hypervisors are generally pretty thin and lightweight virtualized clients, and the Xbox OS has seen changes from Windows 10 brought over. Additionally, Windows 10 isn't nearly as bloated as some people think, if you customize the installation. There're systems out there where the OS sits on just a few hundred megabytes and still fully functions.

I'd expect XSX's version to be a bit larger than that because you need space for some of the fancy graphics and the UI and whatnot, plus space for features like Quick Resume, but it's still smaller than the 3 GB reserve the PS4 originally had.



But it's Crytek :S.

And again, with their history in relation to MS, I take what they say with a pinch of salt. In a lot of ways this Crytek interview reminds me of some stuff an EA dev said about the SEGA Saturn to Next Generation magazine back in 1995. They used a buggy version of Daytona USA to speculate that the Saturn's polygonal performance was only at that game's level, even though it was somewhat well-known that was a buggy, rushed port highly unoptimized for the system.

But, magazines like Next Gen and a few others ran with it, and used it in their comparisons between Saturn & PS1, even if the Saturn was a lot more capable than that port of Daytona USA. So this type of half-truths and misinformation, it's almost as old as the industry itself, and it's usually done to paint a perception or shit a narrative before the generation actually gets under way.

So I'd advise people to always question these sort of things, regardless if they come off as pro-Sony, pro-Microsoft, whatever. At this current stage of the next-gen pipeline, ask yourself why a 3rd-party developer (who has a prior history with one of the other platform holders that didn't necessarily go over well), would put out performance speculation of this ilk, in this context, before the systems have even launched, following a reveal event for one of the systems that was met with strong backlash by a big group of gamers and people who love discussing these system specs at this time before new consoles release?

That's all I'm saying.

Thank you for a very comprehensive answer, rather than just mindless speculation! Really appreciate it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

a reveal event for one of the systems that was met with strong backlash by a big group of gamers

Beside some fans on the opposite side of the fence and threads like the XSX power meme one, where can you see evidence of this widespread strong backlash as I assume you are implying there has been a strong backlash against the PS5 reveal?

Also, minor thing really... would not that be one hypervisor and two virtualised guest OS’s (almost similar to how PS3 operated too, but not quite)?

 

[K.N.W.]

Well I was correcting you, who were implying CUs are something devs have to code for.

Correct, drawing instructions themselves dictate if the workload is more of serial kind or a parallel one. But, as technology moves on, APIs and Engines might start using graphical techniques that work more in a parallel sense, due to the availability of more units. Nowadays, I think, most multiplatform renderers could be targeting the lower numbered units of the GTX 1050/1060 and RX 580, due to them being the most popular cards.

 

[geordiemp]

Beside Xbox fans and XSX power kind meme thread, where can you see evidence of this widespread strong backlash as I assume you are implying there has been a strong backlash against the PS5 reveal?

Also, minor thing really... would not that be one hypervisor and two virtualised guest OS’s (almost similar to how PS3 operated too, but not quite)?

Go read the amount of game site articles spreading the FUD, such as Timdog friend who was dev 10 years ago to windows central claiming Ps5 overheats. Lots of negative spin.

Then we have most posts who say XSX is better by putting down Ps5, not believing Cerny on frequencies, power, cooling, SSD speed....I could go on. Negative concern trolling has been high for weeks now everywhere, even B3D..

 

[ethomaz]

No. XBO has an OS with two hypervisors, one for apps and one for games. And the OS used is a customized version based on Windows called Xbox OS.

XSX will probably be using a similar setup but the hypervisors are generally pretty thin and lightweight virtualized clients, and the Xbox OS has seen changes from Windows 10 brought over. Additionally, Windows 10 isn't nearly as bloated as some people think, if you customize the installation. There're systems out there where the OS sits on just a few hundred megabytes and still fully functions.

I'd expect XSX's version to be a bit larger than that because you need space for some of the fancy graphics and the UI and whatnot, plus space for features like Quick Resume, but it's still smaller than the 3 GB reserve the PS4 originally had.

Hypervisors is not performance free.

This doc has a lot of tests with memory, I/O, processing, etc.
It has comparison with Virtual Machines (hypervisior), Container-based virtualization and Physical Machines too for better understand of the overhead add with each option.
In terms of performance Container-based virtualization is a bit better than hypervisor (Virtual Machine) and can reach average of 4% overhead with some operations reaching 50% overhead.

(PDF) Performance Overhead Comparison between Hypervisor and Container Based Virtualization

PDF | The current virtualization solution in the Cloud widely relies on hypervisor-based technologies. Along with the recent popularity of Docker, the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[Panajev2001a]

Go read the amount of game site articles spreading the FUD, such as Timdog friend who was dev 10 years ago to windows central claiming Ps5 overheats. Lots of negative spin.

Then we have most posts who say XSX is better by putting down Ps5, not believing Cerny on frequencies, power, cooling, SSD speed....I could go on. Negative concern trolling has been high for weeks now everywhere, even B3D..

Yeah, but that is manufactured backlash / astroturfing. I was thinking that there must be more behind that claim than partisan propaganda for this to be stated with such certainty...

 

[ZywyPL]

Again. 7 years ago. Xbox supposedly had the same type of special sauce, and here we are.

Yup, it's 2013 all over again but in full reverse. MS was promising unlimited power of the cloud, they even made a CD3 demo with massive destruction going on, giving people false hope. Sony on the other hand has yet to show at least a fake tech-demo that tries to prove the SSD will do something else than shorten the loading times.

 

[LordKasual]

But it's Crytek :S.

And again, with their history in relation to MS, I take what they say with a pinch of salt. In a lot of ways this Crytek interview reminds me of some stuff an EA dev said about the SEGA Saturn to Next Generation magazine back in 1995. They used a buggy version of Daytona USA to speculate that the Saturn's polygonal performance was only at that game's level, even though it was somewhat well-known that was a buggy, rushed port highly unoptimized for the system.

But, magazines like Next Gen and a few others ran with it, and used it in their comparisons between Saturn & PS1, even if the Saturn was a lot more capable than that port of Daytona USA. So this type of half-truths and misinformation, it's almost as old as the industry itself, and it's usually done to paint a perception or shit a narrative before the generation actually gets under way.

So I'd advise people to always question these sort of things, regardless if they come off as pro-Sony, pro-Microsoft, whatever. At this current stage of the next-gen pipeline, ask yourself why a 3rd-party developer (who has a prior history with one of the other platform holders that didn't necessarily go over well), would put out performance speculation of this ilk, in this context, before the systems have even launched, following a reveal event for one of the systems that was met with strong backlash by a big group of gamers and people who love discussing these system specs at this time before new consoles release?

That's all I'm saying.

People should take singular developer opinions with grains of salt anyway. It's not as though just being a "developer" means you can't release bad or unoptimized work. Hell, i've released games on google play, that technically makes ME a developer.

I think the weight of this comes from the fact that he is with Crytek, and they have historically been making hardware-pushing engines, and he's a rendering engineer so he's right in the thick of the hardware. So the opinion of a developer from a company like this will inherently hold more weight than usual, even someone responsible for AAA games.

It could be a PR stunt, or it could be true. Impossible to tell, but so far he seems to mostly check out and he's dumped alot of info.

I mean there's only so far he can stretch the truth, yeah? He's basically saying the PS5 is the superior console, which is going to be VERY easily disproven in a few months time, especially as nobody has been operating on the idea that XSX's 12 TFLOPS could possibly not be consistent to such a degree as this. Or even that XSX could actually be weaker than the PS5 in any real capacity.


People are going crazy at him suggesting the PS5 is the better console, but TBH his accounts don't seem to be all that farfetched. Outside of just plain deniers, we've been having people speak on PS5's design merits for a long time.

The biggest thing this article did was echo some of the POSSIBLE design defects of the XSX, which have mostly dodged conversation due to them just having much better on-paper numbers.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yup, it's 2013 all over again but in full reverse. MS was promising unlimited power of the cloud, they even made a CD3 demo with massive destruction going on, giving people false hope. Sony on the other hand has yet to show at least a fake tech-demo that tries to prove the SSD will do something else than shorten the loading times.

So the power of the cloud was not in any way less believable than what could be taken as the “same” MS exposition of Velocity Architecture and its benefits just with a multiplier as the base uncompressed speed is over 2x faster?

I guess you would be consistent If you said that you think MS is over selling their SSD/Velocity Architecture solution too and that is just overhyped and way less useful than they misleadingly sell it as.
I would still disagree with you on that too mind you (Velocity Architecture is not overhyped PR fluff, at all), but I could understand your comparison there better.

 

[ZywyPL]

So the power of the cloud was not in any way less believable than what could be taken as the “same” MS exposition of Velocity Architecture and its benefits just with a multiplier as the base uncompressed speed is over 2x faster?

I guess you would be consistent If you said that you think MS is over selling their SSD/Velocity Architecture solution too and that is just overhyped and way less useful than they misleadingly sell it as.
I would still disagree with you on that too mind you (Velocity Architecture is not overhyped PR fluff, at all), but I could understand your comparison there better.

The Velocity Architecture sounds to me exactly the same as what Sony is promising/aiming for with their SSD solution, MS was just creative enough to put some fancy, catchy names to it, that's all. But whether both solutions will actually find their way to practical applications is yet to be proven.

 

[DaMonsta]

So the power of the cloud was not in any way less believable than what could be taken as the “same” MS exposition of Velocity Architecture and its benefits just with a multiplier as the base uncompressed speed is over 2x faster?

I guess you would be consistent If you said that you think MS is over selling their SSD/Velocity Architecture solution too and that is just overhyped and way less useful than they misleadingly sell it as.
I would still disagree with you on that too mind you (Velocity Architecture is not overhyped PR fluff, at all), but I could understand your comparison there better.

Point is, both will play loose with words to promote their system.

It’s obvious lots of time energy and resources go into the existence of these systems regardless of raw numbers.

So understandably both will want to promote what they feel are their strengths, while ignoring/downplaying weaknesses.

Those of us seeking reality can come to terms with this reality.

It’s the fanboys on either side that do the exaggeration, and make reasonable conversation/analysis impossible.

 

[Neofire]

The dude basically fanboys Sony all over his twitter

And your a fan girl for Xbox, what's your point?

 

[alabtrosMyster]

TLDR?

Xbox is sh*t ps5 is the s*it.

 

[Self High Five]

Yup, it's 2013 all over again but in full reverse. MS was promising unlimited power of the cloud, they even made a CD3 demo with massive destruction going on, giving people false hope. Sony on the other hand has yet to show at least a fake tech-demo that tries to prove the SSD will do something else than shorten the loading times.

Yes, the promise of the power of the cloud, an online only dependent supplement introduced by MS with limited details on how it could be integrated with their SDK for third parties, is the exact same as the local hardware for PS5 having an 100%+ advantage I/O throughput & similar to devs opinions on the advantages of a higher clocked GPU (also local hardware).

2013 scarred some people for life. This is going to be a tough generation for them.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

And your a fan girl for Xbox, what's your point?

That we aren't creating topics on an interview with Lady Bernkestel, since that we would also see the bias. Just like we do now. Developers can also be fanboys, and looking at his twitter this one clearly is.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Looks like you have a problem reading properly : he just says that one system is better engeneered than the other with better api and better overall balance. The other is more bruteforce oriented and less pleasant to work with as a coder. But i'm sure there will be some good games on xsx. Maybe not on ps5 level but good nonetheless. So everyone can be happy.

This is a gross oversimplification of what was presented in the thread, at least at the beginning.

Yes, the promise of the power of the cloud, an online only dependent supplement introduced by MS with limited details on how it could be integrated with their SDK for third parties, is the exact same as the local hardware for PS5 having an 100%+ advantage I/O throughput & similar to devs opinions on the advantages of a higher clocked GPU (also local hardware).

2013 scarred some people for life. This is going to be a tough generation for them.

Even tougher for people expecting this gimped, desperation overclocked GPU to “punch above its weight” all generation long.

The SSD is impressive, insane data bandwidth. No denying that. SSDs can’t render images though

 

[HeadsUp7Up]

For the people talking about NDA's have you ever read one or signed one? I have been a part of NDA's in the construction world and they are no joke. Depending on how it's written you can't even acknowledge that you know something exists on your company profile let alone speak to the media about it. Most of the time you can't mention that you're working on it and once it's complete and they've gone public they will generally let you use it in marketing but it has to say something obscure like "Client X" or "Top 5 Tech Company" etc.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Even tougher for people expecting this gimped, desperation overclocked GPU to “punch above its weight” all generation long.

The SSD is impressive, insane data bandwidth. No denying that. SSDs can’t render images though

I mean; it is clocked higher... there are some things the PS5 will do better GPU wise than XSX. There's truth to that whether the way this guy is talking about it is entirely accurate or not.

 

[Journey]

Man, nothing is funnier than intentional misspellings and forced sarcasm! It's gold, Jerry! Gold!

 

[Self High Five]

Even tougher for people expecting this gimped, desperation overclocked GPU to “punch above its weight” all generation long.

The SSD is impressive, insane data bandwidth. No denying that. SSDs can’t render images though

And this has nothing to do with my reply of the false equivalent comparison of the 'promise' of the cloud by MS to actual confirmed local hardware.

And saying any aspect of both consoles "gimped, desperation" when both MS & Sony spent (likely) hundreds of millions of R&D with a fixed budget in order to achieve their design goals, is such warrior nonsense I probably wasted my time even replying to you. It's almost as dumb as some saying "hurr durr look at the slow gimped ssd that MS has!"

 

[SonGoku]

I want to understand this also. I want to know how cu’s can be detached from clock speeds when it comes to RT. On the surface it sounds like wishful thinking, but I don’t proclaim to understand if there is more to it than meets the eye.

It can't, it has no basis on reality. Clock speeds affect the the whole GPU pipeline

 

[onQ123]

This is a gross oversimplification of what was presented in the thread, at least at the beginning.


Even tougher for people expecting this gimped, desperation overclocked GPU to “punch above its weight” all generation long.

The SSD is impressive, insane data bandwidth. No denying that. SSDs can’t render images though

But it can feed the RAM higher quality assets so what the GPU render looks a lot better.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Yup, it's 2013 all over again but in full reverse. MS was promising unlimited power of the cloud, they even made a CD3 demo with massive destruction going on, giving people false hope. Sony on the other hand has yet to show at least a fake tech-demo that tries to prove the SSD will do something else than shorten the loading times.

The difference being Sony will blow our socks off this year at the PS5 reveal and show how powerful the PS5 is

 

[turtlepowa]

Hope, anger, fear, malicious joy, wannabe tech experts, grabbing at straws, pity, desperation, silver linings. This thread has it all. better than any soap.

 

[Maroon Gamer]

Just love the PS5 praise from developers all over the world. Cerny is a genius!

 

[GHG]

I don't care what you believe, hardware exists agnostic of your beliefs.

You guys are basically trying to tell me right now that a 2080 Super is superior to a 2080 Ti, that's the level of nonsense that has encapsulated these discussion.

No.

It would be like saying an AMD GPU is superior in real world gaming scenarios compared to a 2080ti despite having less power.

Why would that scenario arise? Drivers.

We've actually seen that scenario happen on PC quite frequently over the years where cards from certain manufacturers (Nvidia typically) will outperform cards that have more raw power and bandwidth. The raw power isn't being put into question, it's everything else. Numbers in a table don't always translate into real world results. They do more often than not but there are scenarios that can arise where that might not be the case.

It's literally all explained in the interview but yet it's been met with this:

Let's see what happens when we get a look at multiplatform game comparisons.

 

[bitbydeath]

I’m not a developer but I am wondering, is Windows (and subsequently Direct X 12) really that hard to develop towards?
He really seems to hate Windows.

Seems to be the case, rnlval posted this earlier stating it was from an EA Dice presentation.

So while PS5 becomes even more efficient and less complex than PS4. XSX is moving the other direction towards (or is) DX12 as it aligns even closer with PC’s.

 

[geordiemp]

So the power of the cloud was not in any way less believable than what could be taken as the “same” MS exposition of Velocity Architecture and its benefits just with a multiplier as the base uncompressed speed is over 2x faster?

I guess you would be consistent If you said that you think MS is over selling their SSD/Velocity Architecture solution too and that is just overhyped and way less useful than they misleadingly sell it as.
I would still disagree with you on that too mind you (Velocity Architecture is not overhyped PR fluff, at all), but I could understand your comparison there better.

You notice the difference though, Cerny just calls it a fast SSD, 12 bus and instant. MS calls it velocity architecture.

They probably got a bunch of marketing guys making these names up, Nvidia is good at it as well. It amuses me

 

[ZywyPL]

The difference being Sony will blow our socks off this year at the PS5 reveal and show how powerful the PS5 is

Another time traveler on Gaf I see, welcome back to the past.

 

[SonGoku]

RT depends on bandwidth quite a bit as well and xsx has more of it. Either way, RT on both won't be robust so not much of an issue there.

I don't get this argument, XSX has more bandwidth true but it also has a more powerful GPU to feed
By having PS5 run at 17-20% lower dynamic resolution it should free enough resources (GPU & bandwidth) to match the XSX output sans resolution

I expect XSX advantage to manifest in slightly higher dynamic resolution

 

[Hobbygaming]

Another time traveler on Gaf I see, welcome back to the past.

We all know it's going to happen

 

[ethomaz]

Another time traveler on Gaf I see, welcome back to the past.

I don't think any Sony first-party game will disappoint in that department.
Sony always delivery in games no matter the hardware.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I don't think any Sony first-party game will disappoint in that department.
Sony always delivery in games no matter the hardware.

You mean graphically, or overall?

 

[ClearMind]

We all know it's going to happen

Incredible. The PS5 event is gonna be

 

[EverydayBeast]

Multiplatform games sucking on Playstation platforms are over.

 

[ethomaz]

You mean graphically, or overall?

Both... Sony create a lot of games per generation... some delivery in graphics, others in story, others in gameplay, other in everything, etc.

Sony first-party games set them apart from multi-platform games.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I don't think any Sony first-party game will disappoint in that department.
Sony always delivery in games no matter the hardware.

100% accuracy

 

[Hobbygaming]

Incredible. The PS5 event is gonna be

Sony is going to show why their studios are the greatest

 

[polybius80]

This killed the whole interview for me "it will probably work much lower on Teraflops in general, and only reach 12 Teraflops in highly ideal conditions."

then any game developing papers, books, thesis, SDK documentation and tutorials are dead to you

what do you think profiling tools are for?

that applies to any GPU, there is a constant battle to maximize its use, teraflops is the amount of floating operations you can do in a second at maximum, on any game you are not only making floating point calculations, you also move data, wait for response, load states of the api, change texture, change the shader programs wait for vblank signal, drawcall and lot of other stuff and that on top of your own process of what you want to use in the game that may involve more or less work and wait time than other games, in fact this generation was no different why you think one of the performance improvements in vulkan and DX12 was having lean drawcall and being able to do drawcall from multiple cpu cores? deves mention how certain parts of the rendering pipeline takes certain amount om milliseconds and how they reduce that with other process, he was specific amount the waste of time that keeping directx(direct3d) as on PC is for a console represent that is right he is not the first developer to talk about this, the senior developer for metro also talked about it for this generation the interview was in digital foundry

want to use all the teraflops? fill the screen with a solid color and leave framerate unrestricted if the bandwidth doesn't become a problem you will get all your teraflops used in frames