Support NeoGAF

[Renekton]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ams-zen-engineering-sample-specs-leaked.html

• AM4 8 cores with 95W TDP
• AM4 4 cores with 65W TDP
• SP3 24 cores with 150W TDP
• SP3 32 cores with 180W TDP

Base clocks of 2.8Ghz is low so don't expect too much single-thread performance. Will still fly on Ubisoft and Frostbite games as they multi-thread well. Clockspeed limitation seems consistent with Polaris so probably a Samsung 14LPP thing.

 

[DonMigs85]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ams-zen-engineering-sample-specs-leaked.html

• AM4 8 cores with 95W TDP
• AM4 4 cores with 65W TDP
• SP3 24 cores with 150W TDP
• SP3 32 cores with 180W TDP

Base clocks of 2.8Ghz is low so don't expect too much single-thread performance. Will still fly on Ubisoft and Frostbite games as they multi-thread well. Clockspeed limitation seems consistent with Polaris so probably a Samsung 14LPP thing.

Wonder if they'll be Black Edition CPUs. If I can overclock to at least 3.6 to 4GHz I'll be content.

 

[double0cinco]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ams-zen-engineering-sample-specs-leaked.html

• AM4 8 cores with 95W TDP
• AM4 4 cores with 65W TDP
• SP3 24 cores with 150W TDP
• SP3 32 cores with 180W TDP

Base clocks of 2.8Ghz is low so don't expect too much single-thread performance. Will still fly on Ubisoft and Frostbite games as they multi-thread well. Clockspeed limitation seems consistent with Polaris so probably a Samsung 14LPP thing.

My understanding was that engineering samples always start with lower clocks. I believe there was an early leak on a Polaris sample that ran around 800mhz for example. Base of 2.8 GHz on an early sample seems decent, I don't think there's any reason to worry about low clocks just yet.

 

[rokkerkory]

Sounds like good choice for Scorpio

 

[Noobcraft]

Sounds like good choice for Scorpio

Yeah, here's hoping that 8 core makes it into Scorpio.

 

[Renekton]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3099...-chips-will-be-hard-to-come-by-this-year.html

High-end desktops with Zen will be available, but in "limited volume towards the end of the fourth quarter," said Lisa Su, CEO of AMD, during an earnings call Thursday. The number of available Zen-based desktops will depend on how testing of the chips goes and how ready PC makers are to ship the machines, Su noted.

I'm hoping this is because Apple snapped them up... Apple using Zen would be a nice win for them.

Yeah, here's hoping that 8 core makes it into Scorpio.

8-core already has 95W and big die size! Too ambitious.

Scorpio likely will use Jaguars or another Steamroller variant.

edit2: Zen APUs are due early 2017 though, so who knows

 

[Ryoku]

Sounds like good choice for Scorpio

Yeah, here's hoping that 8 core makes it into Scorpio.

95 watts

That's just the CPU.

 

[Rushersauce]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ams-zen-engineering-sample-specs-leaked.html

• AM4 8 cores with 95W TDP
• AM4 4 cores with 65W TDP
• SP3 24 cores with 150W TDP
• SP3 32 cores with 180W TDP

Base clocks of 2.8Ghz is low so don't expect too much single-thread performance. Will still fly on Ubisoft and Frostbite games as they multi-thread well. Clockspeed limitation seems consistent with Polaris so probably a Samsung 14LPP thing.

ES.... ES are underclocked, they always are.

 

[DonMigs85]

That's just the CPU.

Even 65w is pushing it unless they make it separate from the GPU

 

[Renekton]

My understanding was that engineering samples always start with lower clocks. I believe there was an early leak on a Polaris sample that ran around 800mhz for example. Base of 2.8 GHz on an early sample seems decent, I don't think there's any reason to worry about low clocks just yet.

ES.... ES are underclocked, they always are.

That's great!

 

[Inuhanyou]

I can't see how ZEN can make it into Scorpio next year with that kind of TDP, if even the smallest 4 core variant is 65w.

People hoping Zen is in Scorpio better hope AMD is working on a console sized APU mini Zen architecture separate from their desktop variants that will be ready by that time...unless they go for dedicated GPU/CPU combo again, but that will boost the power requirements, the heat and other things.

 

[Proelite]

Technically all Scorpio needs is 4 core Zen (8 logical cores) at 1.75ghz to get easy BC. Maybe Zen cores running at sub 2.0 ghz is low powered enough to be on an APU.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Technically all Scorpio needs is 4 core Zen at 1.75 ghz to get easy BC.

If they just wanted something like BC, which is basic for an iterative console like this, sticking with jaguar would have been the easier choice. If they are going with ZEN, they want performance gains, and if they cut too much just to have it run without heating or power issues, their reasoning for choosing that over jaguar essentially is lessened.

Running at the same clock speed as current jaguar with half the core count cut(and assuming one core used for OS like XB1 in addition, so from 7 cores down to 3), i wonder how much that actually gives them back for performance

 

[El_Chino]

I can't see how ZEN can make it into Scorpio next year with that kind of TDP, if even the smallest 4 core variant is 65w.

People hoping Zen is in Scorpio better hope AMD is working on a console sized APU mini Zen architecture separate from their desktop variants that will be ready by that time...unless they go for dedicated GPU/CPU combo again, but that will boost the power requirements, the heat and other things.

Let's wait until we hear about the ZenAPU first.

Who knows what kind of improvements there'll be from here to next year.

 

[blu]

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ams-zen-engineering-sample-specs-leaked.html

• AM4 8 cores with 95W TDP
• AM4 4 cores with 65W TDP
• SP3 24 cores with 150W TDP
• SP3 32 cores with 180W TDP

Base clocks of 2.8Ghz is low so don't expect too much single-thread performance. Will still fly on Ubisoft and Frostbite games as they multi-thread well. Clockspeed limitation seems consistent with Polaris so probably a Samsung 14LPP thing.

It's interesting what the server-parts base clocks are. If they can stay in the 2GHz+ range that would be serious competition for intel.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Does any game even use 32 cores?

1 core per bit.
Finally, 32 bit gaming is upon us.

 

[Renekton]

It's interesting what the server-parts base clocks are. If they can stay in the 2GHz+ range that would be serious competition for intel.

Hm no definitive base clock so far, it says:

The boost clock speed is at the 24-core 2.75 GHz and the 32-core 2.9 GHz. The idle-clock rate is 400 MHz here with even lower.

 

[SURGEdude]

Hm no definitive base clock so far, it says:

That's mighty impressive for a sample. AMD needs a hit and I hope they get one.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

That 8 channel DDR4. Are we gitting a new ATX standard for AM4 mobos? I mean clearly the mobos should be big enough to support 8 channels with what... x16 RAM slots?

 

[catmincer]

I hope these are good. I buy AMD GPUs but their CPUs suck.

 

[chaosblade]

That 8 channel DDR4. Are we gitting a new ATX standard for AM4 mobos? I mean clearly the mobos should be big enough to support 8 channels with what... x16 RAM slots?

That will be for servers and isn't really anything new there. AM4 will probably only get dual channel and up to 8 cores.

 

[mrklaw]

I can't see how ZEN can make it into Scorpio next year with that kind of TDP, if even the smallest 4 core variant is 65w.

People hoping Zen is in Scorpio better hope AMD is working on a console sized APU mini Zen architecture separate from their desktop variants that will be ready by that time...unless they go for dedicated GPU/CPU combo again, but that will boost the power requirements, the heat and other things.

And I don't understand why this didn't pop up more often in the zen circle jerks in Scorpio threads, or when people were demanding zen in neo. It's a desktop class CPU, it was never going to magically be 5W TDP. you want low TDP you get core m performance, or maybe ultra book dual core CPUs at 15W


Btw, how is that 32 core only a bit more than double the TDP of the 8 core? Maybe Scorpio could take four of those? (195w for 32 core, 24w for 4 cores)

 

[SURGEdude]

And I don't understand why this didn't pop up more often in the zen circle jerks in Scorpio threads, or when people were demanding zen in neo. It's a desktop class CPU, it was never going to magically be 5W TDP. you want low TDP you get core m performance, or maybe ultra book dual core CPUs at 15W


Btw, how is that 32 core only a bit more than double the TDP of the 8 core? Maybe Scorpio could take four of those? (195w for 32 core, 24w for 4 cores)

It wouldn't surprise me if Scorpio further merges the formfactor between Xbox and a pre-built PC. I think the price point and sales projections will decide if they go for a bigger box with a more aggressive heat solution. Going bigger and having access to desktop parts could let them pack in more for a competitive price. MS with their one Windows initiative has much more willingness to break out of the classic console footprint.

 

[exmachina64]

And I don't understand why this didn't pop up more often in the zen circle jerks in Scorpio threads, or when people were demanding zen in neo. It's a desktop class CPU, it was never going to magically be 5W TDP. you want low TDP you get core m performance, or maybe ultra book dual core CPUs at 15W

People got tired of beating back baseless speculation with logic.

 

[anothertech]

More cores is great for some sdvanced video editing softwares, and animation studio tools.

I don't see this as useful for gaming tho. More cores more heat, less hz.

 

[DieH@rd]

People got tired of beating back baseless speculation with logic.

Sadly this.

But as Yosp once said... ~ Let them dream.

 

[IC5]

It wouldn't surprise me if Scorpio further merges the formfactor between Xbox and a pre-built PC. I think the price point and sales projections will decide if they go for a bigger box with a more aggressive heat solution. Going bigger and having access to desktop parts could let them pack in more for a competitive price. MS with their one Windows initiative has much more willingness to break out of the classic console footprint.

I dunno why Microsoft ever strayed from what they did with the first Xbox. It was nearly off the shelf PC parts, put into a custom mobo and firmwares. For a lot of reasons, that worked really well.

Sony has always been the weirdo with hardware. But even they have started to come down from that. I think it would be really easy to make an APU with a 30w laptop CPU core. It makes too much sense.

 

[scently]

And I don't understand why this didn't pop up more often in the zen circle jerks in Scorpio threads, or when people were demanding zen in neo. It's a desktop class CPU, it was never going to magically be 5W TDP. you want low TDP you get core m performance, or maybe ultra book dual core CPUs at 15W


Btw, how is that 32 core only a bit more than double the TDP of the 8 core? Maybe Scorpio could take four of those? (195w for 32 core, 24w for 4 cores)

Or maybe we could just wait and see what a Zen apu looks like. That will give a good indication of where they are going. The fact that a zen apu will be available at least 10 months before Scorpio should already tell you that it is possible to have zen based cpu in an apu. Whether or not Scorpio uses it is a different thing altogether but Zen based apu are a thing.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

I dunno why Microsoft ever strayed from what they did with the first Xbox. It was nearly off the shelf PC parts, put into a custom mobo and firmwares. For a lot of reasons, that worked really well.

The OG Xbox was really expensive, Pentium 3s and Geforce graphics didn't come cheap back then, especially with Nvidia price goughing as usual. Microsoft was selling the thing at a loss.
Thats probably why they switched to PowerPC and ATI graphics.
It wasn't until recently with all in one SOC solutions that x86 became trully cost effective

 

[mrklaw]

It wouldn't surprise me if Scorpio further merges the formfactor between Xbox and a pre-built PC. I think the price point and sales projections will decide if they go for a bigger box with a more aggressive heat solution. Going bigger and having access to desktop parts could let them pack in more for a competitive price. MS with their one Windows initiative has much more willingness to break out of the classic console footprint.

They could go with discrete chips - separate CPU and GPU, but then they'd lose advantages of a combined solution like shared memory? Would that also have issues with BC?

Curious to see what they come up with anyway. Personally I can see them going with jaguar. They already had a faster jaguar than PS4, so they could upclock it like neo will, and that would be OK. Bearing in mind it's suppose to play Xbox one games so CPU limitations there will limit CPU requirements on Scorpio - mostly it'll be a GPU bump to hit 4k

 

[Durante]

Btw, how is that 32 core only a bit more than double the TDP of the 8 core?

Presumably, it runs at significantly lower clocks (and voltages) if all 32 cores are active.

 

[scently]

They could go with discrete chips - separate CPU and GPU, but then they'd lose advantages of a combined solution like shared memory? Would that also have issues with BC?

Curious to see what they come up with anyway. Personally I can see them going with jaguar. They already had a faster jaguar than PS4, so they could upclock it like neo will, and that would be OK. Bearing in mind it's suppose to play Xbox one games so CPU limitations there will limit CPU requirements on Scorpio - mostly it'll be a GPU bump to hit 4k

They need a strong cpu. They are targeting PC VR solution remember? They are not developing their own VR solution which means a partnership with Occulus and/or Vive, both of which have a rather high cpu requirement for their minimum spec. As for compatibility with jaguar in X1, that is not a problem. The system makeup of the Scorpio is already different enough from the X1. Besides, running X1 code on Scorpio won't be a problem given that this is a team that is somehow emulating the 360 on X1. Also targeting multiple cpu config on PC is a thing and has always been a thing.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I can't see how ZEN can make it into Scorpio next year with that kind of TDP, if even the smallest 4 core variant is 65w.

People hoping Zen is in Scorpio better hope AMD is working on a console sized APU mini Zen architecture separate from their desktop variants that will be ready by that time...unless they go for dedicated GPU/CPU combo again, but that will boost the power requirements, the heat and other things.

I have been banging on about this in all the various threads to no real avail. The first thing is that any Zen CPU in consoles will be a mobile variant not desktop class like the first to market ones will be. The second thing is that even if I assume a Zen mobile core is 100% better in performance over Jaguar, it would still be a net worse situation we have in consoles now given Neo and Scorpio are bumping the GPUs 130% and 400% respectively.

If Scorpio is to have a lower clock Vega (>110W?), desktop class 8-core Zen (40-50W?) and 12GB of GDDR5X (30W?) then I could see that being well north of 200W and I'm not sure if Microsoft would/could go that high?

I would love nothing more than these consoles to have monster performing CPUs in them but logic and common sense screams otherwise.

 

[mrklaw]

They need a strong cpu. They are targeting PC VR solution remember? They are not developing their own VR solution which means a partnership with Occulus and/or Vive, both of which have a rather high cpu requirement for their minimum spec. As for compatibility with jaguar in X1, that is not a problem. The system makeup of the Scorpio is already different enough from the X1. Besides, running X1 code on Scorpio won't be a problem given that this is a team that is somehow emulating the 360 on X1. Also targeting multiple cpu config on PC is a thing and has always been a thing.

PS4 is doing VR at 90 and even 120Hz native. XB1 has a faster CPU than PS4 but still jaguar. Neo has an even faster jaguar. Even sticking with jaguar, Scorpio will likely have a notably faster CPU than PS4 and it'd be enough for oculus or vive support.

 

[mrklaw]

I have been banging on about this in all the various threads to no real avail. The first thing is that any Zen CPU in consoles will be a mobile variant not desktop class like the first to market ones will be. The second thing is that even if I assume a Zen mobile core is 100% better in performance over Jaguar, it would still be a net worse situation we have in consoles now given Neo and Scorpio are bumping the GPUs 130% and 400% respectively.

If Scorpio is to have a lower clock Vega (>110W?), desktop class 8-core Zen (40-50W?) and 12GB of GDDR5X (30W?) then I could see that being well north of 200W and I'm not sure if Microsoft would/could go that high?

I would love nothing more than these consoles to have monster performing CPUs in them but logic and common sense screams otherwise.

You don't need to scale the CPUs with GPUs necessarily. Especially with MS pushing 4K you could actually use the existing xb1 CPU and be ok. Of course more is better but it isn't absolutely necessary - consider that Scorpio is still running Xb1 games so any world designs will be limited by that level CPU anyway

 

[Kyzer]

32 cores seems highly inefficient lol

 

[KojiKnight]

32 cores seems highly inefficient lol

Not if you're running a server and you need to run many different server loads/tasks at once.

 

[leeh]

32 cores seems highly inefficient lol

For a server it isn't. More the merrier. My dual Xeon box benefits hugely from having 16 cores.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Don't really see how any of this information would prevent Zen from showing up inside Scorpio. For one, these are Summit Ridge chips, which are basically the desktop/server variants unless they decide to refer to the server models as something different. Scorpio would be using Raven Ridge, which would be the more finely tuned APU that is designed to operate in a different power envelope.

What's more, already present in these chips is throttling that is capable of doing this.

In idle the clock speed can throttle down back to 550 MHz with an amazing power consumption 2.5 and 5 watts idle power

If they can have the chip throttle back this far with those kinds of savings, all they will ever really need to do is lower the clock speeds for the chip till they bring it within a certain power envelope. Even with lower clock speeds it likely still ends up beating jaguar with higher clocks. And this is assuming AMD doesn't somehow get some type of clock to TDP ratio improvement when creating their Zen based APUs, Raven Ridge.

 

[Fafalada]

Occulus and/or Vive, both of which have a rather high cpu requirement for their minimum spec.

The reason those requirements are as high as they are is because they run on PC(and that will change once low-level APIs actually get half-decent support in mainstream middleware). Jaguar is enough to hit 90hz in the same types of games, if it had a GPU to match.

 

[Luigiv]

Btw, how is that 32 core only a bit more than double the TDP of the 8 core? Maybe Scorpio could take four of those? (195w for 32 core, 24w for 4 cores)

Scorpio is already confirmed to be an Octocore (it was literally in the E3 announcement video), so no, we'd still be at 48W (which isn't happening). Also I question how well single threaded performance will scale to even those TDPs.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

You don't need to scale the CPUs with GPUs necessarily. Especially with MS pushing 4K you could actually use the existing xb1 CPU and be ok. Of course more is better but it isn't absolutely necessary - consider that Scorpio is still running Xb1 games so any world designs will be limited by that level CPU anyway

Oh I agree what with the emphasis on Async/GPGPU. I also wouldn't be shocked if Scorpio also stuck with a variant of Jaguar but a few posters may now track me down and slap me with a fish for saying that....

Another thing is that we don't know what, if any, customisations are in the APUs or whether there are additional chips in the systems.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Scorpio is an Octocore, so no.

An 8 core that likely won't be desktop/server class cores, but instead an APU with cores designed for a lower TDP. They are likely to just clock the cores down.

edit - To summarize, these aren't the mainstream, mobile focused chips that will makeup AMD's Summit Ridge Zen APUs. That's the chip likely to be involved in any possible scorpio design.

 

[Luigiv]

An 8 core that likely won't be desktop/server class cores, but instead an APU with cores designed for a lower TDP. They are likely to just clock the cores down.

Yeah that's the point I was trying to get at. I've edited to clarify.

 

[kraspkibble]

i hope AMD do well with their new CPU's. intel need some fire lit under their ass.

 

[scently]

PS4 is doing VR at 90 and even 120Hz native. XB1 has a faster CPU than PS4 but still jaguar. Neo has an even faster jaguar. Even sticking with jaguar, Scorpio will likely have a notably faster CPU than PS4 and it'd be enough for oculus or vive support.

That's my point. Vive and Occulus have an i5 as their minimum/recommended spec for compatibility, meaning the Scorpio will have to have a cpu good enough to support PC performance VR. Not at the highest end but definitely quite capable. Your first couple of sentences are irrelevant really as PSVR is a custom solution. MS does not and is not developing their own VR solution so they will work with one or more VR solution providers.

Anyway, one thing is for sure. Scorpio is going to come with a significantly more powerful cpu in order to do VR. And looking at the choice on hand and what's to come in 2017, its not not a stretch to assume that it will be Zen based.

 

[SRG01]

Just something regarding the clock speeds: they're largely irrelevant with wider busses, so more data can be processed per clock cycle. Is there some innovation that AMD isn't talking about? Perhaps.

Interestingly enough, the chips Keller helped designed for AMD (K8 IIRC) had the same advantage over Intel.

 

[shark sandwich]

Just something regarding the clock speeds: they're largely irrelevant with wider busses, so more data can be processed per clock cycle. Is there some innovation that AMD isn't talking about? Perhaps.

Earlier rumors stated that Zen would be somewhere between Broadwell and Skylake in instructions per clock. If that's the case then a 2.8 GHz Zen will be a good distance behind 4 GHz Skylake in single-threaded performance.

Hopefully the final version will hit 3.3+ GHz. That would make it a pretty great Broadwell-E killer. 2.8 GHz would be somewhat disappointing for their top-of-the-line.

 

[Noirulus]

Still relevant as ever.

LMFAO. So true though, hahahaha.

 

[Avtomat]

Just something regarding the clock speeds: they're largely irrelevant with wider busses, so more data can be processed per clock cycle. Is there some innovation that AMD isn't talking about? Perhaps.

Interestingly enough, the chips Keller helped designed for AMD (K8 IIRC) had the same advantage over Intel.

Could you elaborate on "wider buses"?