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Anandtech: The DirectX 12 Performance Preview
- Thread starter Zombie James
- Start date
I seen that, I'm really interested in what will be said,
LegalEagleMike
Member
seems to be another article rehashing what this thread has already discussed.
The link to the AnandTech article is in the OP - the relative nvidia cards consistently perform better than AMD card, and that is why the early part of this thread discusses the lacklustre drivers AMD have in comparison.
No that article's title is not accurate
Dictator93
Member
That title is hella hilarious when you think about what it means in context of the actual benchmarks.
dr_rus
Member
The slower the CPU the more relative gain it will show on average. So those gains are actually the biggest on AMD CPUs as they are the slowest.
Thanks. good news. Perhaps my buddy with a FX6200 can put off upgrading for a bit and wont be as CPU bottlenecked w/ his 970.
Journey
Banned
Do you have a source ?
You're joking... right? Dat Geforce 5600 Ultra which is several generations ahead of the Geforce 3 inside the OG Xbox, is clocked at 350Mhz vs 233Mhz for Xbox, and memory bandwidth at 11.2GB/s vs Xbox' 6.4GB/s and despite being 2 full architectural generations ahead and killing it spec wise, it's looking mighty embarrassed at 14fps while running on the best CPU of 2003 lol.
Don't forget that Halo PC launched 2 years after the Xbox version and not only are those GPUs several generations ahead, but those numbers are pretty sad considering, so forget trying to use an equivalent GeForce 3 which is what Xbox was equipped with and a CPU from 2001, because the numbers would be embarrassing, in fact the more popular gaming GPU at the time was the Geforce 4 Ti series, typically on a P4 3.2 Ghz which we can clearly call "A more powerful PC" was the most common setup and people were very vocal about the performance issues.
If you purchased Halo PC when it launched and attempted to run it on a pretty good PC for 2003, you wouldn't be asking for sources, you would just know by experience.
SneakyStephan
Banned
I bought halo pc when it came out, had a 9800pro at the time and an athlon xp 2800+, ran really well for me (though it was a good pc at the time^^)
also 1280x1024 on my pc vs 640*480 on my xbox
geforce 4 ti was 2001 stuff btw, I had one before my 9800pro
The only negative memory I have of halo pc was how pathetic the netcode was, and I believe the game even had peer2peer multiplayer instead of dedicated servers (might be misremembering that one)
The multiplayer was simply not worth playing
LegalEagleMike
Member
I guess they are going to have an x1 dx12 team member on the podcast before GDC and then again after GDC.
Journey
Banned
April 2002 to be exact, a generation ahead and clearly more powerful than Xbox, but don't try running Halo. Classic example if you ask me.
Hugh Swank
Member
It would be nice to hear from an actual DX12 engineer before GDC, but being that there is supposedly a lot of DX12 stuff to be shown and discussed at GDC, I'm not sure how much they would reveal.
Either way, I would like to finally hear the facts about DX12 from the horses mouth.
You could have a better experience on a Geforce 4 and a 3.0ghz P4 still. Halo was not anywhere near the monster you are making it out to be. I did play it on PC at the time and it blew the Xbox version away easily.
Ah, some things don't change hey.
Edit : My memory is a bit fuzzy regarding my father's PC at the time but I remember it being a ABIT KR7A motherboard, AMD XP 1800+ CPU and a Geforce 4 ti 4400.
I was playing at 1024*768.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
Im sort of new into this DX12 hype.
Is its performance boost going to carry over on a equivalent level to the xbox one since its mainly for PC? Or is the xbox one's hardware a limiting factor to the true effectiveness of the Xbox One.
Jesus IDK what to believe with all these 50%, 600%, 200%, 100% increases lines people are saying.
Some guy was saying Xbox one is running direct x 9 so once 12 comes up on it that x3 increase at least.
Another guy said DX12 was demo'd on a xbox one and it allowed some test to go up to 120fps.
I dont know what to believe, nor know what to even counter with in a argument, however what alot people are telling me doesnt add up to me.
My basic sense would say Direct X cannot substitute for performance hardware, and that DX take full advantage of something that has the ability of the initial power. Sort of like putting a turbo in your Mom's mini van versus a sports car. Yeah the mini van may get a boost so far without worrying about blowing the engine, but its not going to fully substitute for the lack for power whilst the sports car you'll see a significant difference/increase cause the engine can handle it.
Is its performance boost going to carry over on a equivalent level to the xbox one since its mainly for PC? Or is the xbox one's hardware a limiting factor to the true effectiveness of the Xbox One.
Jesus IDK what to believe with all these 50%, 600%, 200%, 100% increases lines people are saying.
Some guy was saying Xbox one is running direct x 9 so once 12 comes up on it that x3 increase at least.
Another guy said DX12 was demo'd on a xbox one and it allowed some test to go up to 120fps.
I dont know what to believe, nor know what to even counter with in a argument, however what alot people are telling me doesnt add up to me.
My basic sense would say Direct X cannot substitute for performance hardware, and that DX take full advantage of something that has the ability of the initial power. Sort of like putting a turbo in your Mom's mini van versus a sports car. Yeah the mini van may get a boost so far without worrying about blowing the engine, but its not going to fully substitute for the lack for power whilst the sports car you'll see a significant difference/increase cause the engine can handle it.
I'm not 100% sure what DX12 will do for the Xbox but I can tell you what you've been hearing is complete nonsense. Someone else can explain why with better knowledge on it.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
Thats what im looking for a solid explanation about its cause with xbox one.
Cause it sort of adds up for the PC cause of parts that can fully take advantage of the DX12 and what it has to offer, but when it comes to the Xbox one, sounds like hype of smoke and mirrors that doesnt exist. Although I think most of the hype is derived from fan boys who take a inch and go a mile type deal, they dont understand it fully or at all then just paint a utopia of "what they hope it to be" when its far from it.
That and like I said the MS exec came out and said to expect no dramatic change when all this hype came out and they are like OH OH HES DOWNPLAYING IT THERES A NON DISCLOSURE ACT - where people cant talk about hidden chips on the xbox one etc etc...
dr_rus
Member
Why do you talk to drunk Xbox fans?
XBO doesn't run DX9, it runs a custom feature level of DX11. It is perfectly capable of going up to 1000 fps right now while rendering single unshaded triangle.
DX12 will bring an API unification between XBO and Windows. This means that a game written for Win/DX12 should probably "just work" on XBO and it is very likely that any XBO/DX12 game will "just work" on Win/DX12 PC. That's the extent of what DX12 will bring to XBO because the other parts of DX12 on PC which will allow these performance increases is already a part of Xbox One API/driver.
Turin Turambar
Member
No, it's going to be mainly for pc.
It isn't going to be for every developer nor every game. Low level programming isn't easy.
For games that aren't cpu-bounded, expect small improvements, like 5%.
For somewhat cpu-bounded games, expect improvements of 25-30%.
For super cpu heavy games, expect improvements of 60%...
...and for mega cpu bounded mosnters (imagine a type of game which directly doesn't exist right now because it would be too much with actual apis, like a space games with thousands of physics driven ships, like the starswarm demo), expect improvements of 250%.
Basically, we're going to see good efficiency improvements with DX running across multiple cores. With the CPU's in the X1/PS4 being lower clocked, higher core, this matches their architecture so we'll get improved GPU utilization. Due to it being a console, the latency on it's draw calls will be lower than what's seen on PC, whether this will be improved further, we're not sure. Although the interview with the developers of Metro, point to it being so.
There's also the DX12 hardware level features which have been teased. If these are supported on the X1 (Big IF), then we're going to see some nice advancements based on whatever they announce. Personally, with the architectural design using 8 low clocked cores, and the emphasis on DX12 being in that area, then they must of considered hardware level DX12 features in the GPU. Also take into consideration that MS invested 1Billion USD into AMD for their designing of the X1 APU.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
but all these percentages, whats the increase pertaining to? resolution? FPS? general graphics?
We don't have enough data to properly estimate the impact of DX12 with final drivers. Your numbers are taken out of your bumhole.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
Lol thats what im saying, AND arent the numbers of increases coming from tech demos or "proof of concept" demos?
Or what have they exactly tested it on.
I got some guy on my group telling me some demo pumped out 120fps on xbox one hardware(didnt say if it was actual xbox one or similar hardware) and i said show me proof/vid/article.
Then another guy says well xbox one is a computer and hardware is similar to that of PC's therefore why wouldnt it take full advantage of the Dx12 situation, and I said because its lower level internals/economical stuff. Make sense?
The basis with Dx12 I didn't read up early on and now im so caught up between hype/lies/propaganda to figure out whats what. Especially with this Brad guy coming out on Inner Circle Podcast or w/e This still sounded like it was directed towards PC but these fanboys take a inch and go a mile with it.
gamechanger87
Member
Beyond 3d is having a discussion on it and Andrew Lauritzen is chiming in. Check out console technology
Turin Turambar
Member
FPS.
And yeah, we totally don't have concrete data. Those were general guesstimations. To give an idea that's better than the bullcrap I was reading before.
It probably is in your head.
Jon of the Wired
Member
So, to sum up:
- The new generation of graphics APIs are more or less converging. DX12, GNM, Mantle, Metal, and GLNext are (or are likely to be) all pretty similar, with similar performance characteristics, +/- some amount due to implementation issues, drivers, etc.
- The primary performance improvement you get from these new APIs are draw calls that take less CPU time and can be issued from any thread. So, compared to the old APIs (DX11, OpenGL) you can either make more draw calls, or get more CPU time for other tasks.
- Games that have a DX11 or OpenGL backend as well as a Mantle or DX12 backend are only going to see significant performance improvements on the new API if you have an unusually slow CPU relative to your GPU. That's because games will still be built around the draw call limitations of the old APIs.
- In the distant future when support for DX11 and OpenGL can be dropped completely, we may start seeing some pretty cool stuff (more draw calls means more unique objects in the world, which is exciting).
- The performance benefits from moving to DX12 on Xbox One will be less than the performance benefits on PC, because the DX11 version used on Xbox One already has extensions that can make draw calls cheaper.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
So thats it? 300% increase? 60%? 40%
or you cannot comment? it seems its obvious of its benefits for the PC but almost nothing can be said for the xbox one other than itll help somewhat?
IDK how dudes can speculate so hard on dx12 and the effects on xbox one and speak like they are professionals The people I hear locally around me talking about it? when they are merely minimum wage works at a grocery store I guess that makes them a expert. My buddy is the one whos trying to tell me all this stuff and I ask where he hears this from and its from some dudes he works with, and it makes me mad cause he doesnt question them and just repeats this information hook line and sinker....doesnt understand it, but believes it word for word what they say.
I told him about how the MS exec came out and said DX12 cant change clock speeds and will not be that dramatic of a change. And he said really he said that? I said yes bro he came out and clarified it. He seemingly was shocked, cause he doesn't read anything online and as I said just believes "Speculation" to the full extent, speculation that is from a amateur source.
Killroyskbg
Member
That kind of language get you nowhere but off GAF.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
Im not talking about anyone on this forum but people I hear talking about the this stuff near me, My comment was talking about people I know locally...
Not talking trash about anyone here on the forum, sorry if it came off that way. I went back and clarified.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
If one wants to believe hype, they probably will until bashed over the head with reality.
I have a hard to believing that MS wasn't doing stuff like that already in the XB1, so minimal improvements with DX12 wont' shock me at all.
Jon of the Wired
Member
So, for more details here's a slide that shows some of the DX12-like features that are already present in the Xbox One SDK:
Since these features are already present on the Xbox One, draw calls on Xbox One are already cheaper than they are on PC, so the relative improvement of moving to DX12 (which will introduce these feature on PC) will be reduced. I wouldn't want to speculate on exactly how big the difference might be, because I'd just be making things up.
lol I chuckled
gamechanger87
Member
Some information from AndyL of Intel:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/directx-12-the-future-of-it-within-the-console-gaming-space-specifically-the-xb1.55487/page-45
psorcerer said: ↑
And only now, in 2015, for some strange reason these features suddenly appear.
psorcerer said: ↑
More than that, I've seen numerous developers trying to persuade MSFT that the change is needed, but it didn't happen up until now.
yet they still manage to drive forward a much needed initiative like Mantle, and then everyone else kicks them into the shins, takes the project and runs off with it. Up next: Nvidia and Intel take Adaptive sync via display port and run off with it.
3dilettante said: ↑
So much goes on behind the scenes of API development that I'm not sure we will know the full story, or if given the number of players and viewpoints we can.
A lot of things can be done to shift things one way or another, and each party can cite their fraction of the overall story to justify their desired narrative.
sebbbi said: ↑
Yes. However the GPU is VERY good at viewport culling and occlusion culling. This means that the GPU needs to eventually be able to submit all the draw calls (because it knows the visible set, the CPU does not).
Ethatron said: ↑
Almost all the studios which survived till now still have their own engines! Basically all console newcomers (RAD fe.) still build their own new engines, which have some chance of being ported to PC (see Resident Evil).
Ethatron said: ↑
And a great deal of them are stuck at DX9/OGL2 and will never move forward.
Ethatron said: ↑
It's always possible to move forward, it was always possible to make "cool" APIs. I conjecture the problem ist _not_ the game developers, the problem is that the API providers don't know where something experimental leads to, and because it's business they feel reluctant to throw resources behind a crazy idea, they don't want market segmentation and whatnot business-based concepts.
Ethatron said: ↑
Ultimately, the reason for DX12 coming 12 years too late, is business, nothing else IMHO.
psorcerer said: ↑
Why?
psorcerer said: ↑
Example: UE is not sold for 7 digit numbers, but is "free-to-play".
psorcerer said: ↑
Yes, that could happen, that's why we remove the frontend. And program GPU directly.
CP, which is a totally standard CPU, but we cannot program directly even that, because it's managed by the byte-code generated by driver.
function said: ↑
How would you like to see CPU/GPU integration progress to support a DX12 like API on a next gen console?
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/directx-12-the-future-of-it-within-the-console-gaming-space-specifically-the-xb1.55487/page-45
psorcerer said: ↑
And only now, in 2015, for some strange reason these features suddenly appear.
There are a lot of reasons why "now" is a good time. For some reason people have gotten the impression that because today we can do a pretty nice, portable low-overhead API, that this was always the case. It absolutely wasn't... GPU hardware itself has only recently gotten to the level of generality required to support something like DX12. It would not have worked nearly as nicely on a ~DX10-era GPU...
Another huge shift in the industry lately is the centralization of rendering technology into a small number of engines, written by a fairly small number of experts. Back when every studio write their own rendering code something like DX12 would have been far less viable. There are still people who do not want these lower-level APIs of course, but most of them have already moved to using Unreal/Unity/etc
psorcerer said: ↑
More than that, I've seen numerous developers trying to persuade MSFT that the change is needed, but it didn't happen up until now.
function said: ↑
yet they still manage to drive forward a much needed initiative like Mantle, and then everyone else kicks them into the shins, takes the project and runs off with it. Up next: Nvidia and Intel take Adaptive sync via display port and run off with it.
That's a twisted view of the world. Frankly it's not terribly difficult to make an API that maps well to one piece of hardware. See basically every console API ever. If you feel bad that the other "modern" APIs are apparently ripping off Mantle (and just trivially adding portability in an afternoon
Ultimately if Mantle turns out to be a waste of engineering time (which is far from clear yet), AMD has no one to blame but themselves in terms of developing and shipping a production version. If their intention was really to drive the entire industry forward they could have spent a couple months on a proof of concept and then been done with it.
The adaptive sync thing is particularly hilarious as that case is a clear reaction to what NVIDIA was doing... but building it on top of DP is precisely because this stuff was already in eDP! It's also highly related to other ideas that have been cooking there for some time (panel self refresh). Don't get fooled by marketing "we did it first" nonsense.
3dilettante said: ↑
So much goes on behind the scenes of API development that I'm not sure we will know the full story, or if given the number of players and viewpoints we can.
3dilettante said: ↑Yep, as you say I'm not even sure the notion of a "full story" is well-defined, despite human nature wanting a tidy narrative
A lot of things can be done to shift things one way or another, and each party can cite their fraction of the overall story to justify their desired narrative.
sebbbi said: ↑
Yes. However the GPU is VERY good at viewport culling and occlusion culling. This means that the GPU needs to eventually be able to submit all the draw calls (because it knows the visible set, the CPU does not).
I'm not sure I'm totally bought in to either sentence there
For the second part of the statement, maybe for a discrete GPU. I'm not as convinced that latencies absolutely "must be high" because we "must buffer lots of commands to keep the GPU pipeline fed" in the long run. I think there is going to be pressure to support much more direct interaction between CPU/GPU on SoCs for power efficiency reasons and in that world it is not at all clear what makes the most sense. Ex. we're going to be pretty close to a world where even a single ~3Ghz Haswell core can generate commands faster than the ~1Ghz GPU frontend can consume them in DX12 already so looping in the GPU frontend is not really a clear win if we end up in a world with significantly lower submission latencies.
It may go in the direction that you're saying and we certainly should pursue both ways, but I disagree that it's a guaranteed endpoint.
Ethatron said: ↑
Almost all the studios which survived till now still have their own engines! Basically all console newcomers (RAD fe.) still build their own new engines, which have some chance of being ported to PC (see Resident Evil).
Ethatron said: ↑
And a great deal of them are stuck at DX9/OGL2 and will never move forward.
Ethatron said: ↑
It's always possible to move forward, it was always possible to make "cool" APIs. I conjecture the problem ist _not_ the game developers, the problem is that the API providers don't know where something experimental leads to, and because it's business they feel reluctant to throw resources behind a crazy idea, they don't want market segmentation and whatnot business-based concepts.
Ethatron said: ↑
Ultimately, the reason for DX12 coming 12 years too late, is business, nothing else IMHO.
psorcerer said: ↑
Why?
psorcerer said: ↑
Example: UE is not sold for 7 digit numbers, but is "free-to-play".
psorcerer said: ↑
Yes, that could happen, that's why we remove the frontend. And program GPU directly.
psorcerer said: ↑
CP, which is a totally standard CPU, but we cannot program directly even that, because it's managed by the byte-code generated by driver.
function said: ↑
How would you like to see CPU/GPU integration progress to support a DX12 like API on a next gen console?
Lol.
Mafia Films
Neo Member
So direct x 12 like feature are already present in the xbox one now?
My whole thing is its not going to be as dramatic as the fanboys hope for. They are always defending the xbox one and justifying their purchase and its like WHY? And the devs/execs/PR guys arent even really hyping this for the xbox one, thats what gets me, its all the fans over hyping DX 12.
When I heard the guy say there was non disclosure agreements with the xbox one and thats why they cant comment on the effects of DX 12 I knew these guys were insane. Its not even hoping for the best they just hear the information then add 300% more into it then what is said.
It reminds me of some kids in grade school hyping stuff they dont understand " Well my dad told me X X and X so its the TRUTH!" type a deal.
My whole thing is its not going to be as dramatic as the fanboys hope for. They are always defending the xbox one and justifying their purchase and its like WHY? And the devs/execs/PR guys arent even really hyping this for the xbox one, thats what gets me, its all the fans over hyping DX 12.
When I heard the guy say there was non disclosure agreements with the xbox one and thats why they cant comment on the effects of DX 12 I knew these guys were insane. Its not even hoping for the best they just hear the information then add 300% more into it then what is said.
It reminds me of some kids in grade school hyping stuff they dont understand " Well my dad told me X X and X so its the TRUTH!" type a deal.
DagnastyEp
Member
A new DirectX 12 Star Swarm performance preview has been posted. This time looking at AMD APUs: How they perform compared Intel, and how the iGPU benefits from DX12.
When comparing i3 with AMD A8 and A10 and 770 GPU
More at the link:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8968/star-swarm-directx-12-amd-apu-performance
When comparing i3 with AMD A8 and A10 and 770 GPU
More at the link:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8968/star-swarm-directx-12-amd-apu-performance