Support NeoGAF

[mujun]

This is probably more why someone who likes Nintendo mightn't like the Bombcast. Nintendo games are very Japanese in their design and gameplay philosophies, as are the majority of third parties worth a damn on Nintendo systems.

I'm not going to get into a debate as to what is better, but I will say that Western-developed games, or at least the ones that make headlines and get hundred-page threads on GAF look bland and unexciting to me. Perhaps it is the familiarity with the tropes and cultural cues that I see in both the game design and art direction, but it all feels as though I've seen it done before (and better) elsewhere. As I was never a fan of Doom, every big game that seemingly takes its heritage from it just feels like the same thing I tried and hated 15 - 20 years ago with tweaked controls and shinier graphics.

At least on consoles, Western development has been rather rigid in sticking to their genre-specific roots. Aside from stuff that tries to innovate by hybridising two genres (Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 etc.), it seems to be less about changing the way games play and more about delivering some sort of story, spectacle or message through established gameplay types. To wit, WoW, Dragon Age and Baldur's Gate are far less removed from each other in terms of their DnD-derived battle systems than their wildly divergent developmental lineages might suggest. Same with Killzone, CoD and Gears of War. I'm a big fan of the novel and the different, but the last time I really felt like I got that from a Western-developed game was Boom Blox and before that, Guitar Hero.

Which isn't to say that Japanese-developed stuff can't feel samey or derivative, because it most certainly can, especially in long-running series or in certain genres (see also: modern-day Square-Enix). Certainly the anime aesthetic gives a lot of things a very homogenous look at first blush, but then again, so does the quasi-realistic look western games tend to go for (the bald space marine and the brown-haired everyman are tropes for a reason).

The majority of games I play and enjoy have always been by Japanese devs, partly because Western devs have largely abandoned the genres I like and partly because when I find something novel and exciting, it happens to have been made by a Japanese dev. I never even did it deliberately.

Also, multiplayer, especially online multiplayer, holds very little appeal to me at all.

If you're looking for deep and meaningful experiences in games, spectacle, stories, multiplayer-driven gameplay, more power to you. These things aren't a priority for me or those who think like me.

So what games do you like to play? I find it suspicious that you list the ones you don't like to support your point but don't list the ones you do.

 

[Jintor]

Listening to the Bombcast this morning (and it may be a consequence of the fact that they just got back from GDC AND Pax East AND half of them are sick) and it just felt like they weren't really... enthused about gaming right now. Which is why the IdleThumbs cast was so strange - they were sharing these maaaaagical stories, inside scoops, just little things that made them happy to be working and developing and making games.

That said, I'll never give up the Bombcast. They're still cool cats.

 

[Fredescu]

Listening to the Bombcast this morning (and it may be a consequence of the fact that they just got back from GDC AND Pax East AND half of them are sick) and it just felt like they weren't really... enthused about gaming right now. Which is why the IdleThumbs cast was so strange - they were sharing these maaaaagical stories, inside scoops, just little things that made them happy to be working and developing and making games.

Yeah, I'm re listening to old Idle Thumbs right now, and I love the way they manage to be critical without being cynical, and they really attempt to examine what underlies their own ability to find a particular game fun or not. I stopped listening to Giant Bomb because it too often felt like an excuse to be funny and cynical. I don't have enough podcast listening time in my life, so I'll probably just keep listening to Idle Thumbs forever.

 

[LiK]

Listening to the Bombcast this morning (and it may be a consequence of the fact that they just got back from GDC AND Pax East AND half of them are sick) and it just felt like they weren't really... enthused about gaming right now. Which is why the IdleThumbs cast was so strange - they were sharing these maaaaagical stories, inside scoops, just little things that made them happy to be working and developing and making games.

That said, I'll never give up the Bombcast. They're still cool cats.

Brad mentioned his fever just broke tonight on Twitter so he was podcasting sick as a dog. Gotta give him props for going to work. Yea, never gonna give up on GB.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Can you point me in the direction of the games you're playing from Japan that aren't currently relying on previous established genre tropes? I'm asking cynically, but if you can answer convincingly, all the power to you.

I don't like that you separate 'deep and meaningful experiences', 'spectacle' and, to a lesser extent, 'story' from what makes Nintendo-esque games special, but without you having mentioned any examples of Japanese games you do like, I don't have much of anything to add here.

As usual, I'm convinced you're forcing colour-blindness on yourself in regard to Western games. And you're only going to be worse for wear for doing so.

I didn't even realise I preferred Japanese games over western games until I took stock of the games I'd bought over the years. Between getting back into gaming in 2005 and discovering GAF, I had no knowledge whatsoever about the business end of the industry, nor where my favourite games were being developed. I resent the implication that I'm willing this on myself - I just have tastes that are different to yours and they just happened to land away from home.

But if you must know, between Grandia II, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy XIII, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga and Dragon Quest V, there are a lot of differences in terms of what you're actually doing when you play, what aspects you need to keep in mind. While they do stay true to their DnD roots in terms of being basically about stat management at their core, they introduce gameplay wrinkles by stripping it down to some basic aspects then adding some novel gameplay element and have thus diverged into various subgenres. Basically, each of these battle systems take their cue from a game that came before it, but because they all concentrate on one or two singular aspects, you end up with wildly different systems.

Western games, on the other hand, have tended to take the DnD system itself as a base, doing less stripping down than their Japanese counterparts before adding their own novel gameplay elements. The reason for this is that the various incarnations of DnD were robust enough and so all-encompassing that you could use the same system for any number of different campaigns, all providing as different a narrative or thematic experience as could be while maintaining a mostly common battle system. This carried over onto early WRPGs such as Baldur's Gate and Diablo and the assumption seems to be that the way you differentiate yourself isn't so much by changing the battle system, but rather by telling a really great story and balancing how your PCs develop and grow. The emphasis is on writing a good yarn rather than re-jigging the rules.

It also helps that DnD has changed and developed alongside WRPGs, with one influencing the other over the years. In Japan, I don't know of anything similar, which means that games are influenced by just games themselves. There's nothing reinforcing what the basic rules are.

I need only submit examples like the Ouendan, Layton, Electroplankton, 3D Picross, Rhythm Heaven or (hell) Wii Sports as examples of Japanese-originated novel genres. Basically, aside from the tried and true genres I do enjoy, I'll take anything "wacky Japanesey" or interesting like Puzzle Quest, Henry Hatsworth or Scribblenauts as long as it brings something new to the table. Sometimes I'll like it, sometimes not. Doesn't matter - I'll try it anyway.

 

[Fredescu]

That's a long way of saying you don't like playing 3D games, and you much prefer playing on handhelds. Do you need to extend those biases to the assumption that western devlopers aren't doing interesting things?

 

[nckillthegrimace]

I skipped the final two.five episodes of Active Time Babble because they dedicated even more segments to Bioware crap, and I don't need that in my day. Sorry Kat!

I am not a fan of the segment in the beginning of each of the newer episodes where Kat talks to herself for forty or so minutes. Her voice starts to drone on and I begin to feel like I'm being lectured by a person that I completely disagree with on some sort of fundamental level. I might not even actual disagree with her, but that sort of presentation just makes me cynical and combative.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

That's a long way of saying you don't like playing 3D games, and you much prefer playing on handhelds. Do you need to extend those biases to the assumption that western devlopers aren't doing interesting things?

Sure, if it's from my own point of view. I'm not trying to impose my views on anyone else. As a matter of fact, half my posts in this thread is me defending my opinion from those who think that somehow, I'm mistaken, that I do like the games I say I don't.

Basically, they aren't, by and large, doing things that interest me, which is all that should matter inasfar as my own consumption of video games goes.

 

[Fredescu]

Basically, they aren't, by and large, doing things that interest me, which is all that should matter inasfar as my own consumption of video games goes.

Yep, definitely true. Sorry, I jumped in mid argument I guess. I think you would appreciate western devs a lot more if you played one 3D shooter and got "good" at it. Video games are ultimately a skill based medium, so if you haven't developed a certain skill, you're cutting yourself off to even the appreciation of the genre that it applies to. I know I personally have no skill at all for Fighting games, so I have absolutely no appreciation for what makes a good one and what would make a bland one. This doesn't lead me to make negative statements about that genre though. I don't tell fighting game fans that I find their favourite games bland.

 

[mujun]

I didn't even realise I preferred Japanese games over western games until I took stock of the games I'd bought over the years. Between getting back into gaming in 2005 and discovering GAF, I had no knowledge whatsoever about the business end of the industry, nor where my favourite games were being developed. I resent the implication that I'm willing this on myself - I just have tastes that are different to yours and they just happened to land away from home.

But if you must know, between Grandia II, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy XIII, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga and Dragon Quest V, there are a lot of differences in terms of what you're actually doing when you play, what aspects you need to keep in mind. While they do stay true to their DnD roots in terms of being basically about stat management at their core, they introduce gameplay wrinkles by stripping it down to some basic aspects then adding some novel gameplay element and have thus diverged into various subgenres. Basically, each of these battle systems take their cue from a game that came before it, but because they all concentrate on one or two singular aspects, you end up with wildly different systems.

Western games, on the other hand, have tended to take the DnD system itself as a base, doing less stripping down than their Japanese counterparts before adding their own novel gameplay elements. The reason for this is that the various incarnations of DnD were robust enough and so all-encompassing that you could use the same system for any number of different campaigns, all providing as different a narrative or thematic experience as could be while maintaining a mostly common battle system. This carried over onto early WRPGs such as Baldur's Gate and Diablo and the assumption seems to be that the way you differentiate yourself isn't so much by changing the battle system, but rather by telling a really great story and balancing how your PCs develop and grow. The emphasis is on writing a good yarn rather than re-jigging the rules.

It also helps that DnD has changed and developed alongside WRPGs, with one influencing the other over the years. In Japan, I don't know of anything similar, which means that games are influenced by just games themselves. There's nothing reinforcing what the basic rules are.

I need only submit examples like the Ouendan, Layton, Electroplankton, 3D Picross, Rhythm Heaven or (hell) Wii Sports as examples of Japanese-originated novel genres. Basically, aside from the tried and true genres I do enjoy, I'll take anything "wacky Japanesey" or interesting like Puzzle Quest, Henry Hatsworth or Scribblenauts as long as it brings something new to the table. Sometimes I'll like it, sometimes not. Doesn't matter - I'll try it anyway.

I'll give you that Japanese games have a wider and more interesting (sometimes strange is a more appropriate word) range of "settings".

I don't however agree with you at all that they are any less samey than Western games in terms of mechanics be it the evolution of existing mechanics or invention of new ones. They may have been in the past (in the heyday of the Japanese game) but not anymore and even think that you see a larger quantity of interesting stuff (mainly indie stuff) coming out of Western games.

As far as I know Japanese video game RPGs came from the same base as Western ones DnD and Ultima.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I'll give you that Japanese games have a wider and more interesting (sometimes strange is a more appropriate word) range of "settings".

I don't however agree with you at all that they are any less samey than Western games in terms of mechanics be it the evolution of existing mechanics or invention of new ones. They may have been in the past (in the heyday of the Japanese game) but not anymore and even think that you see a larger quantity of interesting stuff (mainly indie stuff) coming out of Western games.

As far as I know Japanese video game RPGs came from the same base as Western ones DnD and Ultima.

I said that JRPGs also came from DnD roots. They just forgot those roots over time and diverged more as a result (in terms of battle mechanics rather than story - the majority of JRPG stories never move beyond the level of anime tripe)

Also, I was never talking about indie stuff developed in the west. Indie devs are always making wacky stuff - stuff that usually doesn't get a lot of mainstream coverage. They have to, after all, differentiate themselves but don't have the luxury of having 100 man teams and $50 million budgets.

We just don't hear a lot about the indie scene in Japan here in the West, so it's impossible to compare like to like.

 

[Curufinwe]

I am not a fan of the segment in the beginning of each of the newer episodes where Kat talks to herself for forty or so minutes. Her voice starts to drone on and I begin to feel like I'm being lectured by a person that I completely disagree with on some sort of fundamental level. I might not even actual disagree with her, but that sort of presentation just makes me cynical and combative.

She has moved to GamePro and won't be hosting ATB any more. So your problem is solved.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Gamespy Debriefings wins. I take back everything bad I ever said about them. I could listen to Ryan Scott impressions all day

Oh Boy!

 

[GhaleonQ]

Gamespy Debriefings wins. I take back everything bad I ever said about them. I could listen to Ryan Scott impressions all day

Oh Boy!

I knew you'd come around.

PIZZA SANDWICHES FOR BREAKFAST!

 

[Curufinwe]

The way they make fun of Ryan makes him sound a bit like Frank Spencer from Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em.

This latest episode was a great return after I skipped the previous episode.

 

[Lord_Nergal]

Debriefings is great, but it seems all they do these days is make fun of their listeners.

 

[notworksafe]

Debriefings is great, but it seems all they do these days is make fun of their listeners.

Not true at all. They spend plenty of time mocking Ryan Scott!

And talking 'bout bangin'.

 

[Lord_Nergal]

Not true at all. They spend plenty of time mocking Ryan Scott!

And talking 'bout bangin'.

True, but let's tally it up.

-Shit on Michigan
-Shit on every state
-Shit on ponytails
-Shit on people with relationship problems


I realize their primary focus is on comedy, and to do that you have to mock a lot of stuff, but it's getting old for me.

 

[notworksafe]

True, but let's tally it up.

-Shit on Michigan
-Shit on every state
-Shit on ponytails
-Shit on people with relationship problems


I realize their primary focus is on comedy, and to do that you have to mock a lot of stuff, but it's getting old for me.

Having lived in Ohio, fuck Michigan.

The rest is just jokes, really. I think the relationship question hate is because most of their questions are just trolls.

How would you respond to: "I'm a fat, ugly dude dating a hot chick and she wants to shit on my chest. What do?"

 

[The Big Rig]

Senility aside, the Debriefings is very entertaining. Hopefully tomorrow's show will be them blowing their load on Portal 2.

 

[John Rabbit]

Vinny's the exception. He seems more able to just enjoy games, whatever they may be, while the others always go in with some kind of agenda

vinny is also the only person who will talk about a game for multiple weeks in a row (brad playing SC2 doesn't count, he's barely able to form sentences let alone cohesive opinions) and give new and different insights every time. the other guys go through games like tissue paper and offer very little to any actual thought on the game itself. jeff and ryan will spend 15 minutes explaining the mechanics. maybe they should start a separate podcast where they just take turns reading instruction manuals.

 

[Lord_Nergal]

Having lived in Ohio, fuck Michigan.

The rest is just jokes, really. I think the relationship question hate is because most of their questions are just trolls.

How would you respond to: "I'm a fat, ugly dude dating a hot chick and she wants to shit on my chest. What do?"

I get where you're coming from. I really enjoyed the episode before this last one when they talk about San Genero (sp?), but having listened to every episode since their debriefs/gamescoop crossover episode from PAX east 2010, it's just getting old for me.

Their stuff is really hit and miss, and lately all it seems to be doing is missing for me.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Oh wow Gamers with Jobs tore Sony apart this past episode. Not that I disagree with their assessment of Sony's response to hacking but once they were done with that dead horse they proceeded to bash the shit out of the XMB, the PSP Go, (Sony) Tablets and pretty much anything else they could get their hands on. What do they even have to do with the hacking? The argument they were making was a stretch at best.

They stated (their words) that the dashboard is like getting a massage in sunshine and the XMB is like getting his with a tennis racket. Come on. That’s what you expect a 13 year old to say on gamefaqs, not grown men.

I skip next week as they stretch to defend themselves from what I'm sure is an onslaught of letters but I'll be back in a few weeks. I'll give them 1 dumb episode a year

In fact the whole "podcast sphere" response to the hacking has been pretty awful. I feel less informed about it a week of podcasts later then I did before; they are literally making me dumber. I guess informing people is hard work :/

More on topic:

The Nintendownload Express: If it wasn't pointed out to me I never would have known there wasn't an episode this week. Jokes over, time to pack it up and go home Jeff. Peaked with The Ricker and has been downhill ever since.

PSNation: I think I will take a break for now. I'll pick it up again at E3 when they do the live show they're selling tickets for. The format has gotten kind of stale IMO and episodes feel like they take a good 15 minutes to get going. A year later and I still miss Mark