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[ThatGamingDude]

Cute. I get this hardcore capitalist outlook, I sympathize with it, but in my view business should not be conducted in a cunty way, which is what Apple and Google are doing. Epic too, to lesser extent, with those exclusives of theirs.

Covering up or hiding that you're being a cunt doesn't make you less of a cunt
Firing people can be cunty, and it's done every day, for example

They either self-regulate or if there's enough squabbling in courts that it's costing a mixed market economy like ours a good chunk of change, it's going to get regulated for them

Epic can paint a pretty good picture of Apple being shitty; Google I think will be a bigger tree to climb, and the only thing I can really think of in the anti-trust stuff is they could spin them buying up companies and projects and immediately killing them, stunting innovation in the markets they're dominate in

 

[llien]

Doesn't Apple have like the 24% of the smartphone pool?

Only in US.
Worldwide they are single digit.
In EU they are not even #2:

Gashtronomy, post: 259714133, member: 752149"]
Microsoft aren't the giant they used to be...
[/QUOTE]
Microsoft this year is bigger than they have ever been, expanding into various areas, from consoles to cloud hosting, getting closer to 2 trillion mcap mark.

Billions of people now use IOS, instead of using Windows like they used to.

Why stop there and not claim it's "trillions of people"?
Not even 1 in 10 PC users is using Macs. And that even before locked and loaded ARM CPU switch fiasco.

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

Funny how apple cut is 30%, but they only offer a 20% discount, effectively raising the actual price of whatever they sell.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is a game changer. I feel this move by Apple and Google will lead to something huge a couple years from now.

 

[phil_t98]

Cute. I get this hardcore capitalist outlook, I sympathize with it, but in my view business should not be conducted in a cunty way, which is what Apple and Google are doing. Epic too, to lesser extent, with those exclusives of theirs.

But it doesn’t matter what google or Apple do Epic we’re still fine with it when they signed up to gain access to the user base of google and Apple.

that’s the thing people are not getting Epic have gained massivly by breing on the google play store and apples App Store. They just got greedy themselves and want a bigger slice.

yeah it isn’t great giving away 30% but you agreed to it

 

[SoloKingRobert]

Apple is doing the same what's Epic is doing on Google Play Store with Apple Music, it requires its on Payment method to avoid Google 30% fee.

 

[DigitalScrap]

The amount of corporate tribalism constantly exhibited here astounds me. Whether it be game console maker, digital storefront proprietor, or mobile device ecosystem creator. I am constantly amazed how many people seem to attach their identities to these companies. Amazing.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Microsoft, and Sony, and Steam and all the other owners of stores are getting a ton of money as well. As I said a couple of days ago on the xCloud not in iOS thread, this is multibillion corpA vs multibilion corpB wars. I cant find a sweet spot on any side.

Exactly. That's why this is as far as I'm willing to go in this...

Watch the ensuing chaos

 

[Ulysses 31]

 

[namekuseijin]

hopefully this teaches mobile fanboys that real games are only on consoles and pc

though Fortnite is a bad example of a real game...

 

[EverydayBeast]

Apple is having fun removing apps it’s the modern day holocaust they don’t give a damn

 

[iconmaster]

Epic’s strategy depends on thousands of its fans beating down Apple’s doors to demand Fortnite be restored to the platform. Hence the 1984 ad parody and the hashtag.

I can’t say it’s the wrong strategy, but in decades of following them the last time I remember Apple caving to public pressure on anything was Antennagate. That was ten years ago.

 

[DiddyKongRacing69]

Fortnite being gone anywhere is music to my ears.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I'm sorry but Apple and Google are in the wrong here. When I buy a game from Best Buy I'm not continually paying them a fee because I initially purchased through them. If I purchase additional content elsewhere that's none of their concern. Netflix and Spoitfy fall in the same category. After the initial purchase there should be no more recurring payments to apple.

It's hard to look at things like that. It's up to developers to decide if a platform brings enough value to be worth the lost revenue cut. If you value the customers inside the walled garden, you pay the garden fees for access. Apple is draconian without question, but that's the rules until the courts step in.

 

[e0n]

I'm not invested in this, but I can't believe they pulled off a Trojan horse on the release day of Total War: Troy. Epic would be making themselves look like fools if they recanted and put the game back on iOS.

 

[DigitalScrap]

Epic would be making themselves look like fools if they recanted and put the game back on iOS.

Epic didn't take the game off - Apple and Google both delisted it for Epic trying to circumvent their agreement by implementing a way for Fortnite users to buy directly from Epic so Epic no longer have to pay Google and Apple their previously agreed upon cut.

 

[Mattyp]

Microsoft aren't the giant they used to be

Microsoft has never been larger in their history.



Epic can fuck off honestly otherwise pull the game from xbox and PSN digital as well if you really give a shit. This is about getting to sell your product in someone else's store and saying yeah nah fuck you no cut. Doesn't work that way never has never will you didn't establish the client base so you pay the fee.

It's like Sony ringing up Amazon and asking them why they're making money on Playstation Game sales instead of selling them at the cost of what Sony sell them to Amazon for. Is the 30% to high? Who knows really but it's the industry standard either way, I don't see Apple or Google backing down so best of luck looking the fool when you re-introduce it later on iOS is to large a market to surrender.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I really hope Apple (and Google now?) do not cave on this. Epic will go after the console makers next if they do.

Epic has the option to charge whatever they want and build out their own distribution platform. It's called the PC. They're already doing it there. They need to learn they can't dictate the terms of other platforms. They should spend their efforts making EGS the best place to buy, sell, and play games if they really want to compete.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Only in US.
Worldwide they are single digit.
In EU they are not even #2:

Gashtronomy, post: 259714133, member: 752149"]
Microsoft aren't the giant they used to be...

Microsoft this year is bigger than they have ever been, expanding into various areas, from consoles to cloud hosting, getting closer to 2 trillion mcap mark.


Why stop there and not claim it's "trillions of people"?
Not even 1 in 10 PC users is using Macs. And that even before locked and loaded ARM CPU switch fiasco.
[/QUOTE]
I can't tell if there's something lost in translation here.

I thought apple had sold a billion iPhones?

Compare that to 25 years ago, where Apple had Mac and... What else? Now the PC space is, with the exception of office's etc, being pushed out by IOS.

If 25 years ago you said Apple would be as big as they are, as popular they are now, especially with the casual crowd, you would have been laughed at.

 

[e0n]

Epic didn't take the game off - Apple and Google both delisted it for Epic trying to circumvent their agreement by implementing a way for Fortnite users to buy directly from Epic so Epic no longer have to pay Google and Apple their previously agreed upon cut.

I understand, but it's doubtful they would follow their rules again unless they feel like they have a case here.

 

[NickFire]

Epic’s strategy depends on thousands of its fans beating down Apple’s doors to demand Fortnite be restored to the platform. Hence the 1984 ad parody and the hashtag.

I can’t say it’s the wrong strategy, but in decades of following them the last time I remember Apple caving to public pressure on anything was Antennagate. That was ten years ago.

It's anecdotal, but I've already seen their strategy start to pay off in my little world. Last night my youngest asked for a Samsung phone because Apple is awful (thanks to the video). I of course told them they are not getting a phone period, and that they didn't have to worry about Epic and apple fighting since they play on switch. Point is just the video was all the rage with their group of friends last night. Not an immediate threat to Apple, not even a little, but if those conversations are playing out throughout the country in the younger crowds, it could become a problem a few years down the road.

 

[llien]

I thought...

Dude... Who cares how many things they've sold over one and a half decades?
They are at single digit market share worldwide/EU today and for quite a while, a bit more in US market.

Epic’s strategy depends on thousands of its fans beating down Apple’s doors to demand Fortnite be restored to the platform.

In other words, they are super naive? I doubt it..
They thought of it as a PR stunt too, surely, they don't realize how deep in Stockholm syndrome the gamers are, and they decided to pursue legal action (as Spotify, Rakuten, Telegram before them)

 

[Silvawuff]

Guess Epic has to launch its own smartphone and app marketplace now.

 

[BeardGawd]

I have the perfect solution for regulators and it doesn't involve them significantly changing much. They need to force Apple/Google to separate the "Apple Tax" from the actual price of the app/service. Essentially an itemized bill. Currently customers just pay whatever the price or subscription is without knowing that 30% is going to Apple. If Apple was forced to display this $10 subscription is actually a $7 subscription + $3 going to Apple I guarantee more consumers will wise up and make their voices heard and force Apple to reduce their fee.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Fuck Apple.

Fuck Epic Games.

 

[CitizenX]

Epic is a juggernaut (bitch).

I can't wait to see their next project after Fortnite. 2034 is going to be really exciting.

Fortnite should go down in video game lore as the how the fck did this happen. Its one of those moments in any creative media where everything, no matter how much of a mess turned out awesome(to those who like it). Case in point it was on the cover of Game Informer in 2014(1st mentioned around 2011 i think) to be sort of something akin to Minecraft but evolved into a polished version of 7 Days to Die(released 2013). It then released a beta in 2017 where after a o hum reception it went into a semi do over and the rest they say is history. One weird fact is a letter was written into Giantbomb(what happened?) by a former Epic dev. around 2016 (i think) who said the game was never going to be released and it was nothing but a demo. While it is not in my wheelhouse in any way its a story more people should appreciate because nothing is easy and right time, right place trumps all.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Fortnite should go down in video game lore as the how the fck did this happen.

Initially, it took PUBG's wider design, which was mind blowing at the time, said, 'This is mine now', and offered it for free, and on PS4. That brought everyone, including me, in to give it a try.

The next bit is Epic being bizarrely fortunate that the go-nowhere project they'd been working on for a decade, had wonderful fundamentals, and just needed the right outlet. It was magic from the get-go, and everyone who dipped in to try, got hooked.

The final ingredient is not taking that for granted, and working to build and build on that magic, no matter how insane, revolutionary, or outright seemingly impossible for 13 amazing seasons.

It's a bit crazy though, that Epic's planned world dominator and successor to Gears, fell flat on its face, only to turn around and take over the world. As you point out, it really is right time and right place, as much as skill, for this hobby. Just like we saw a GameCube life simulator that did good enough for itself over the years, suddenly become a titanic mainstream success and the biggest game of this year.

 

[CitizenX]

Initially, it took PUBG's wider design, which was mind blowing at the time, said, 'This is mine now', and offered it for free, and on PS4. That brought everyone, including me, in to give it a try.

The next bit is Epic being bizarrely fortunate that the go-nowhere project they'd been working on for a decade, had wonderful fundamentals, and just needed the right outlet. It was magic from the get-go, and everyone who dipped in to try, got hooked.

The final ingredient is not taking that for granted, and working to build and build on that magic, no matter how insane, revolutionary, or outright seemingly impossible for 13 amazing seasons.

It's a bit crazy though, that Epic's planned world dominator and successor to Gears, fell flat on its face, only to turn around and take over the world. As you point out, it really is right time and right place, as much as skill, for this hobby. Just like we saw a GameCube life simulator that did good enough for itself over the years, suddenly become a titanic mainstream success and the biggest game of this year.

"and offered it for free" this was probably the key and look at the industry now and look at Epic. They were already a major player, but instead of just sitting at the engine table, they sitting basically on the hill. I just see their 30% fight as trying to get a bigger piece of the pie for themselves.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

 

[CitizenX]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

Um, but its any Companys right not to have another product on theirs. I may be saying that wrong, but Apple(im not of fan of their garbage) doesnt have to accept anything. Its like saying hey you HAVE to do this, fck off no i dont. TS needs to just sit back and code, he is such a hypocrite its not funny.

 

[LordCBH]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

I smell a steamy load of bullshit from Tim here.

 

[Rikoi]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

It's interesting how he addressed almost every complaint made against epic, even on this forum.

 

[Ixiah]

Who do you cheer on, when the Empire is fighting Sauron´s Army ?

 

[Megatron]

I'm a bit confused what Epic is trying to achieve. If they have an issue with the 30% cut, why are they not calling out other platforms (PS, Xbox, Switch)? Or have they update the game there as well?
On the other hand, if it is about fighting for an open platform, then why did they do the same to the Android version of the game?

They can’t fight everyone at once. They started with Steam and are now after Apple. I think they will certainly go after the consoles if this is successful.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Well, you can always download it directly. Huawei is doing great.

 

[BlackM1st]

Russia to Apple: You're guilty of antitrust abuse over iOS app monopoly

After Kaspersky complains, Russia's competition authority finds Apple abused its total control over the App Store.

www.zdnet.com

It's about removing features from the 3rd party apps. All around the world Apple is under siege.

 

[MrFunSocks]

A lot of you are missing the core of this case. It is ultimately about anti-trust legislation and abuse of a dominant market position.

That means that this has very little to do with Sony and Nintendo for example. That also means that the argument 'if you do not like it, do not be there' has no meaning since their dominant market position means you have to be there to not loose out a disproportionate piece of your business.

This will be interesting. This case has potentially much more implications for Google, Amazon and Microsoft (outside games) than anything else that is relevant for this forum.

In what world does Apple have a dominant market position? Android dwarfs iOS.

 

[BlackM1st]

I

In what world does Apple have a dominant market position? Android dwarfs iOS.

In the iOS world, appstore is a 100 monopoly. Sure, you can disagree and argue that it is only natural, but Epic thinks otherwise and now they are taking it to the court, just like Kaspersky did it in Russia.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

Tim Sweeney hates console gamers.

 

[01011001]

if the courts recognize the iOS platform as a computer platform similar to Windows, then they will win.
there is precedence here with Microsoft... they couldn't even ship their OS with Internet Explorer without getting sued.

so this is even worse, LIKE WAY WORSE, we are talking about a computer OS here that literally locks developers out of using their own payment methods and distributing their own apps independently.
on Windows, all there was was a browser that was pre installed that got them in trouble for basically the same thing.

 

[IntentionalPun]

if the courts recognize the iOS platform as a computer platform similar to Windows, then they will win.
there is precedence here with Microsoft... they couldn't even ship their OS with Internet Explorer without getting sued.

so this is even worse, LIKE WAY WORSE, we are talking about a computer OS here that literally locks developers out of using their own payment methods and distributing their own apps independently.
on Windows, all there was was a browser that was pre installed that got them in trouble for basically the same thing.

In the US MS really got in trouble for their business tactics, not bundling IE alone. That was always the sort of lame part of the case that for the most part in judgement wasn't what really got them. They fucked with OEMs and competitors in many other ways.

 

[Robot Carnival]

I don't really care about all 3 parties involve (but if gun to my head, I'll probably pick Google); but with Epic's lawsuit, they're saying that Apple is holding a monopoly control as a platform no? however, if Google is also in play here, how does that work? it's 2 different platforms hold by two different companies that's in competition with each other. on top of that, Epic also has access to the console platforms and their own launcher on PC. seems not that solid of a case for them with my limited understanding to this subject.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It's the same exact thing especially for Apple, who manufactures their own devices. Console market is split between Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. A "monopoly" according to you.

It really isn't the same, as Apple certainly don't QA test every game and patch before they go live on their store - as console platforms do for games. Their phones are also mostly made from the same global contract manufacturers and parts that any no-brand Chinese handset running Android can have, other than maybe the processors, but even that is still using the same ARM instruction set, everyone else uses because its from an Acorn/BBC micro. Smartphones and tablets are just the same ubiquitous personal computing device in the way a PC and a Mac are, hence why retail hardware is also a devkit - and the hardware is always sold off contract at a profit.

Consoles on the other hand are highly bespoke devices designed mainly for one primary task: gaming. Consoles are sold at either a loss or small profit for the first years, and even have prototype hardware in the form of devkits, maybe 2 years before the retail product reaches commodity pricing, that may have cost over 10-20x the cost of launch hardware price when the developer first received it.

The arrangement is designed to maximise the capability of the consumer hardware to last a generation of 5-7years ,and is a risky venture. There is no fixed monopoly with incremental upgrades like phones/pcs, as every console generation each platform starts at zero, and the market is wide open for anyone to come and join.

Unlike smartphones, console platform holders need to bring lots of content themselves to move customers to purchase the device, and developers benefit from being associated with that content on that platform, to further justify the license cut.
Console platforms earn their cut in exchange for the high risks they take on each generation, and aren't able to just dial-it-in with an incremental evolution smartphone with a new digit name and sit back for the 30%.

The biggest innovations the consumer gets in the console space is the hardware and software that a platform holder brings, whereas on smartphone the biggest innovations are the hardware parts - like a new camera sensor in an iPhone, made by Sony - or the software that is produced by external developers.

Console hardware risks and platform exclusives risks need the license fee for a viable business plan. Smartphones do not need revenue from an app store to be viable hardware businesses.

 

[MrFunSocks]

In the iOS world, appstore is a 100 monopoly. Sure, you can disagree and argue that it is only natural, but Epic thinks otherwise and now they are taking it to the court, just like Kaspersky did it in Russia. ⬆

That’s not how monopolies work though.

 

[Vawn]

Funny how apple cut is 30%, but they only offer a 20% discount, effectively raising the actual price of whatever they sell.

That's not raising the price. It's still 20% cheaper.

 

[Warnen]

Tim Sweeney is Robin Hood, take from the rich and give to China... oh wait.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It really isn't the same, as Apple certainly don't QA test every game and patch before they go live on their store - as console platforms do for games

Uhhh.. console manufacturers charge thousands of dollars for certification.. and in the past charged lots of money even for certifying a patch, leaving games abandoned by devs who couldn't afford to update them. Eventually they've relaxed these fees, or created things like ID@XBox for free cert (but devs only have access to a specific set of code, code that runs in a sandbox, could never be as performant, etc.)... but.. they literally probably PROFIT off of the cert processes lol

Ionsole hardware risks and platform exclusives risks need the license fee for a viable business plan. Smartphones do not need revenue from an app store to be viable hardware businesses.

30% of %60 is $18. Console licensing fees have generally been in the $8-10 range the entire time they existed for physical games.

So consoles survived off of 15-20% licensing fees for generations. They still survive off of that for about 50% of their sales (because they are still physical.)

Nintendo also profits handsomely off of their hardware right from the start of the generation generally as well. They then continue to expand that margin. They also use the advantage of being 1st party to more easily market their own games. And both Sony and MS moved towards attempting to profit at least a bit off of their hardware from the jump last gen, definitely once their costs fell they were.

Apple has higher hardware margins, quite a bit higher than most Android manufacturers... but the 2 worlds aren't quite as different as you claim... they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Particularly in a post "massive loss leader console" world... their business model doesn't REQUIRE 30% cut from all software.. it's just.. what they charge.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Apple can go fuck itself same with Google. They do business with genocidal maniacs working with them to manipulate information and track people and all kinds of shit. They can go to hell.

Epic you get that money. Ain’t no shame. Stealing from thieves. Dont hate the player hate the game

 

[DigitalScrap]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

I guess I should reach out to Tim and see if he will let people sell software on the Epic Games Store and not give them a cut.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Tim Sweeney is the William Fucking Wallace of 21st century.

Clown shoes mother fucker... man.