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[Futurevoid]

The Dark Knight Blu-Ray. The IMAX scenes look brilliant and the rest of the movie shows up.:/

 

[Dio]

Ideally, shouldn't Blu-Rays preserve the original look of the animation cels? It gets complicated during Disney's low-budget phase (starting around 101 Dalmations and continuing into Robin Hood) because of the unclean lines they have in that period.

What film grain would there be in animation cels? Pointing a DNR cannon at the movies isn't the right way to go but this is one case where I argue film grain is the wrong choice. If the Disney company had digital cameras and digital projection, the movies would've never had grain in the first place.

I posted what film grain in animation cels looks like earlier. I actually think it's kind of necessary to keep the film grain, for the sake of the lineart being preserved:

Here's some more shots, great example of 'good' anime 35mm to bluray (sorry, JPEG compression messes with it a bit):

Outlaw Star:

Record of Lodoss War:

 

[Nappuccino]

It's been a while since I've watched it (I think I'll give it another whirl tonight), but I remember it not being as sharp and "crisp" as my other blu-rays which are known to be "reference quality."

But is that a problem with the transfer or the original film? I don't remember JP ever looking reference quality . . . it's a bit of a grimy movie and that's part of it's charm, part of why the dinos look real imo.

I could be very wrong though . . . but that is certainly my memory of it.

 

[Aselith]

The 24 blurays are obscenely bad.

 

[Syriel]

The Dark Knight Blu-Ray. The IMAX scenes look brilliant and the rest of the movie shows up.:/

IMAX film source vs 35mm film source.

 

[Riptwo]

IMAX film source vs 35mm film source.

That really isn't the only problem with the non-IMAX scenes. It looks like there's a hideous amount of edge enhancement on the rest of the transfer that can't be solely attributed to different film stock.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Old Boy bluray is kinda shit. Compressed, colors are flushed... blacks aren't...

 

[Rich!]

The 24 blurays are obscenely bad.

what like, in the fact that none of them exist apart from seasons 7, 8 and 9?

 

[glow]

Black Christmas looks horrible on Blu-ray but it's always been a grainy print. Ichi the Killer and American Psycho were disappointing.

 

[Futurevoid]

That really isn't the only problem with the non-IMAX scenes. It looks like there's a hideous amount of edge enhancement on the rest of the transfer that can't be solely attributed to different film stock.

Exactly. I'm well aware of the differences in film stock.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Sword in the Stone: The Thread.



Just slap a filter on it, no one will notice!

It sucks having lesser Disney animated movies sitting on my shelf while Sword in the Stone is sorely missing but I would not keep that disc if I got it for free.

 

[Nerdkiller]

It's not just Sword in the Stone, most of Disney's old animated catalog titles suffer from copious amounts of DNR, in varying degrees.

Robin Hood:

No further explanation need. Not as awful as the smearjob in SitS, but still pretty fucking awful.

Sleeping Beauty:

Even this gorgeous film that got high marks from video reviews suffers from this shit. There's a seriously incompetent shithead at Disney is making this decisions.

I refuse to believe that this is somehow "our way of bringing the intended vision of what the animators wanted" considerin that they scrub away the grain and alter the colour timing to the point where detail is lost (Cinderella for example, in where highlights are blown out). John K spoke out about this, especially about the Cinderella point. I'm more than certain that this is just them bringing the old movies more in line with their digital features that came about in the '90's.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

I think it was Enter the Dragon that was released and it wasn't even 1080p. It's some sort of weird resolution upscaled.

 

[Scorpion Soldier]

That really isn't the only problem with the non-IMAX scenes. It looks like there's a hideous amount of edge enhancement on the rest of the transfer that can't be solely attributed to different film stock.

They used the IMAX master of the 35mm scenes, which go through an IMAX DNR process because they're blowed up for 70mm. It often looks great on the big screen itself, but the process is dreadful if left in tact for digital masters and home releases.

 

[Ridley327]

This might have a decent argument for being renamed the Prime John Woo film transfers thread instead.

Hard Boiled

The Killer (yes, it's also an interlaced transfer on top of all the other fuckery)

Why do some people make it so hard for me to buy things when I am so willing?

 

[brandonh83]

The Hills Have Eyes blu ray is just an upscale of the DVD which is a shame.

Okay so they thought... oh my god lmao

 

[RadioHeadAche]

I posted what film grain in animation cels looks like earlier. I actually think it's kind of necessary to keep the film grain, for the sake of the lineart being preserved:

Here's some more shots, great example of 'good' anime 35mm to bluray (sorry, JPEG compression messes with it a bit):

Outlaw Star:



Record of Lodoss War:

Those are gorgeous. If Outlaw Star gets released here, I may have to get it despite owning all the original Bandai dvd sets.

 

[| Praxis |]

the fucking worst.

almost unwatchable.

This is shocking. I had no idea this existed.


I can't remember if Advent Children was really bad, or if that was my imagination.

 

[tuffy]

Those are gorgeous. If Outlaw Star gets released here, I may have to get it despite owning all the original Bandai dvd sets.

Funimation picked up the show back in 2013 along with Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne and others. But since it's a license rescue, they're not in any rush to release it.

 

[TAJ]

What do you think it's photographed on?

Very slow film with small grain structure. Or in the case of Sleeping Beauty very slow film that was also twice as big, meaning it had absolutely tiny grain structure.

I think it was Enter the Dragon that was released and it wasn't even 1080p. It's some sort of weird resolution upscaled.

There were a lot of those, many sourced from very old WB transfers. The latest one to get that treatment was Heaven & Earth about a year ago. Apparently it was either that or no Blu-ray. WB only pulls their quality elements out of storage for 4K or better scans these days and they refuse to spend any more money on a movie that bombed that badly.

 

[RadioHeadAche]

This is shocking. I had no idea this existed.


I can't remember if Advent Children was really bad, or if that was my imagination.

I remember something about the newly-added scenes looking great, and the rest looking worse.

Funimation picked up the show back in 2013 along with Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne and others. But since it's a license rescue, they're not in any rush to release it.

I would love to check out Escaflowne. Hopefully they don't sit on them too long.

 

[Ridley327]

I remember something about the newly-added scenes looking great, and the rest looking worse.

The dumb-dumbs over at Squenix rendered the original film for DVD resolution and never bothered to re-render the original scenes.

 

[evanmisha]

I remember something about the newly-added scenes looking great, and the rest looking worse.


I would love to check out Escaflowne. Hopefully they don't sit on them too long.

Add Utena to the list of 90s anime restored on Blu-ray I'm eagerly awaiting a Western release of

 

[s_mirage]

I refuse to believe that this is somehow "our way of bringing the intended vision of what the animators wanted" considerin that they scrub away the grain and alter the colour timing to the point where detail is lost (Cinderella for example, in where highlights are blown out). John K spoke out about this, especially about the Cinderella point. I'm more than certain that this is just them bringing the old movies more in line with their digital features that came about in the '90's.

While ultimately the fault lies with the studios when they perform the transfer, uneducated viewers play a role. I don't believe studios would do this if it weren't for ignorant viewers who whine if a transfer contains grain, seemingly unaware that film grain is an unavoidable part of celluloid movie making. So the studios DNR things to death in order to give their customers the sharp, clean images that they think they want.

The studios did something similar with DVDs, especially around the turn of the century, in the form of edge enhancement. They seemed to have been working on the assumption that everyone was watching on small screens with composite connections, so some movies were edge enhanced to death in order to make detail pop out. The end result was that the fine detail was all but erased in some cases, to be replaced by obnoxious sharpening halos (see the original Region 1 version of Star Wars Episode I for a particularly egregious example).

 

[DJ_Lae]

Of the movies I own, those Disney ones are pretty big offenders.

And Running Scared. It's barely above upscaled DVD, plus the damn thing is 1080i. It's the only interlaced blu-ray I own.

 

[TAJ]

The worst major studio ones I can think of that haven't been mentioned were House of Flying Daggers, Scream and the original release of The French Connection.

 

[evanmisha]

Old Boy bluray is kinda shit. Compressed, colors are flushed... blacks aren't...

Wasn't the Canadian release much better? I've got the trilogy box set and love it.

 

[| Praxis |]

Old Boy bluray is kinda shit. Compressed, colors are flushed... blacks aren't...

It was a disappointment, but the steelbook was nice.

 

[darthbob]

Just... the worst.

Spoiler

yes i know hayden was added in the '04 DVD release but i can't very well post an image of the NOOOOOOOO from vader at the end of RotJ now can I?

 

[Syriel]

While ultimately the fault lies with the studios when they perform the transfer, uneducated viewers play a role. I don't believe studios would do this if it weren't for ignorant viewers who whine if a transfer contains grain, seemingly unaware that film grain is an unavoidable part of celluloid movie making. So the studios DNR things to death in order to give their customers the sharp, clean images that they think they want.

Ignorance isn't just limited to film.

We've got an audio thread here on GAF where people are complaining about wide dynamic range in audio, and claiming that compressed DR is better.

There is an emulation thread about the WiiU where people are complaining that games displayed in their original aspect ratio have the "wrong" aspect ratio.

Consumers don't always know what is accurate and what is not.

 

[Dio]

Ignorance isn't just limited to film.

We've got an audio thread here on GAF where people are complaining about wide dynamic range in audio, and claiming that compressed DR is better.

There is an emulation thread about the WiiU where people are complaining that games displayed in their original aspect ratio have the "wrong" aspect ratio.

Consumers don't always know what is accurate and what is not.

Hell, just look at anything about 'bass.' People think 'oh the bass is too weak' all the time when they've just been listening through bass-heavy equipment and stuff that's been messing with their perception of what normal music sounds like.

 

[ultracal31]

the fucking worst.

almost unwatchable.

My friend tried to argue with me that stuff like this is okay because the make up department at the time didn't consider that there would be a higher resolution later on.

We don't talk much

 

[a Master Ninja]

Most early bluray releases had bad transfers. I recall The Prestige not looking so good. It's easy to notice on long running tv shows. The Season 1 bluray of Mad Men looks terrible compared to the later seasons, despite the entire series being filmed on 35mm.

 

[Nerdkiller]

(see the original Region 1 version of Star Wars Episode I for a particularly egregious example).

If I recall, the BD release of Episode I traded that for instead scrubbing away the grain, to bring it more in line with the digitally shot Prequels. I'm pretty certain the response to that has been apathetic.

 

[Jarrod38]

The Toxic Avenger 2.
While not a true bad transfer something went wrong and made it to print.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Toxic-Avenger-Part-II-Blu-ray/122649/

 

[| Praxis |]

The Toxic Avenger 2.
While not a true bad transfer something went wrong and made it to print.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Toxic-Avenger-Part-II-Blu-ray/122649/

Those films would just be wrong if the picture was good.

 

[knkng]

Very slow film with small grain structure. Or in the case of Sleeping Beauty very slow film that was also twice as big, meaning it had absolutely tiny grain structure.

So are you agreeing with him that it should be filtered out? I'm honestly not too sure what side you're on here.

Of course, ideally animation shouldn't have grain in it, but the reality is that it does (not counting digital of course). In this case it's best to leave the grain intact and preserve the lines and brushstrokes.

 

[jett]

This is shocking. I had no idea this existed.


I can't remember if Advent Children was really bad, or if that was my imagination.

I remember something about the newly-added scenes looking great, and the rest looking worse.

Same problem as the anime one, the original movie was rendered in SD LOL.

Look at the difference between the logo and the actual picture.

 

[TAJ]

Hell, just look at anything about 'bass.' People think 'oh the bass is too weak' all the time when they've just been listening through bass-heavy equipment and stuff that's been messing with their perception of what normal music sounds like.

There are actually people who think that the rattling distortion you get from speakers bottoming out is good bass.

 

[bobawesome]

Add Utena to the list of 90s anime restored on Blu-ray I'm eagerly awaiting a Western release of

I'm unsure if Nozomi even does blu ray releases.

 

[| Praxis |]

Same problem as the anime one, the original movie was rendered in SD LOL.

Look at the difference between the logo and the actual picture.

 

[TAJ]

So are you agreeing with him that it should be filtered out? I'm honestly not too sure what side you're on here.

Of course, ideally animation shouldn't have grain in it, but the reality is that it does (not counting digital of course). In this case it's best to leave the grain intact and preserve the lines and brushstrokes.

I'm saying that with a good scan it shouldn't be very noticeable in a 1080p downconversion in the first place. (with a source like vintage Disney animation) Lower res/quality scans give you approximations of grain. These approximations can clump together, both in the original scan and again on downconversion, and give you false grain. That's ignoring the added video noise and screen-door artifacts in truly bad transfers, as well as compression.
Anyway, I don't believe in tampering of any kind.

 

[Riptwo]

They used the IMAX master of the 35mm scenes, which go through an IMAX DNR process because they're blowed up for 70mm. It often looks great on the big screen itself, but the process is dreadful if left in tact for digital masters and home releases.

I was wondering why they'd bother tampering with the image in the 35mm scenes but not the 70mm ones! Wouldn't the insane edge enhancement look even worse when blown up to IMAX screen sizes though? Bizarre.

 

[Lynd7]

Ideally, shouldn't Blu-Rays preserve the original look of the animation cels? It gets complicated during Disney's low-budget phase (starting around 101 Dalmations and continuing into Robin Hood) because of the unclean lines they have in that period.

What film grain would there be in animation cels? Pointing a DNR cannon at the movies isn't the right way to go but this is one case where I argue film grain is the wrong choice. If the Disney company had digital cameras and digital projection, the movies would've never had grain in the first place.

It shouldn't matter, they should only care about preserving the films in the highest quality, not tinkering with them. They should keep the grain as that is how they were produced. Studio Ghibli does it right.

Disney also goes in and re-colours things for the blu rays too right? That's just not a good idea. *May not be true, I think I've heard that though*

 

[Bloodrage]

The Raid.

 

[lobdale]

Thankfully absolute shit Blu-ray transfers are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[TAJ]

Thankfully absolute shit Blu-ray transfers are the exception rather than the rule.

True, but cold comfort when one of your favorites gets butchered.

 

[knkng]

Same problem as the anime one, the original movie was rendered in SD LOL.

http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/1443_16_1080p.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://images2.static-bluray.com/reviews/1443_8_1080p.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://images4.static-bluray.com/reviews/1443_6_1080p.jpg[IMG]
Look at the difference between the logo and the actual picture.[/QUOTE]
Jesus, you'd think they'd be a little more forward thinking.

[quote="TAJ, post: 170731574"]I'm saying that with a good scan it shouldn't be very noticeable in a 1080p downconversion in the first place. (with a source like vintage Disney animation) Lower res/quality scans give you approximations of grain. These approximations can clump together, both in the original scan and again on downconversion, and give you false grain.[/QUOTE]

I see, my bad. :)
Although the situation still gets a little messy when you get older material such as TV animation from Toei, which was all shot on crap 16mm.

 

[Moongazer]

The bluray of RAN is pretty disappointing. Can only imagine how good it would look with a proper restoration but the only bluray release of the film literally looks like an upscaled dvd.

 

[JackBauer24]

The first releases of The Fifth Element and Gladiator.