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Begging Our Oppressors For Mercy Will Never Work

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After the election of Donald Trump, there were a lot of think pieces and hot takes about how the solution to racism is for black people to spend the rest of their lives trying to convince racists that racism is bad. I don’t think that is the correct solution. Trying to convince racists that they are wrong does not work. I know people are going to bring up that Vox article to try and prove me wrong. However I’ll put that article against the entirety of American History.

Telling black people that they need to try and convince racist people to stop, or to try understand “where they are coming from” implies we haven’t been trying to do that during our entire existence.

The fight for equality in America has been just that. A fight.

You don’t like slavery? Fine we’ll have a civil war.

You survived the civil war, okay now live through reconstruction.

Don’t like reconstruction? Well now here’s Jim Crow.

You were able to defeat Jim Crow during the Civil Rights Movement?

Alright, then we’ll criminalize blackness.

Welcome to era of mass incarceration and police brutality.

So, people banded together and told the government it’s not right to criminalize blackness because black lives matter.

And how did this country respond?

We elected Donald Trump. A billionaire that lives in a golden tower who has spent the last 8 years telling our first Black president to go back to Africa. He is a President Elect who stresses the importance of saying “Radical Islamic Terrorists” but will never say that “Black Lives Matter”, because frankly he doesn’t believe they do.

The fight for American Civil Rights has been brutal trench warfare for centuries. People have spent their entire lives fighting against this multi-headed beast called institutional racism that just keeps regenerating and rebranding itself after every battle. Institutionalized racism is nowhere close to being defeated, but that hasn't stopped our slow crawl towards progress.

However with the election of Donald Trump this is the first time in our nation’s history where we’ve taken a significant step backwards in terms of civil rights and equality.

Throughout the history of the fight for equality for every voice that says we need “change” and to “move forward” there were also voices within the movement that say we need to “slow down” or “let’s try to reason with them”. However trying to negotiate with racists will never work because our end goals are completely different. Contrary to popular belief “both sides” aren’t the same. Racists believe in supremacy, while non-racists believe in equality.

supremacy =/= equality

The narrative that we should coddle racists isn’t a new idea. It’s been around forever.

However what is new is the internet.

The notion that a black dude in jersey can instantly share their experience of oppression with a Chinese woman in Arizona is ground breaking. I think we take for granted that there are real divisions between people who are referred to as “Latino” or “Asian” or “Arab” or “Black” or "LGBT+", etc. I also think we take for granted that there are real divisions within those groups too.

So, instead of trying to understand our oppressors we should focus our energy on embracing intersectionality and trying to understand our fellow oppressed so we can breakdown these artificial divisions between us and from a coalition that can collectively not only defeat institutionalized racism, but also homophobia, islamophobia, sexism, classism and other type of -ism's these motherfukcers try to throw at us.
 
I must make two honest confessions to you… First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

—Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”
 
the arc of history bends towards fucking violence.

Everytime progress has been made in freeing ones selves from their opressors(whether its the American Revolution, the Mexican War of Independence, the French Revolution, the Civil War, etc.) violence has been an ally.
 
Telling Black Americans that they need to have conversations with racists is really just a smug-ass way to get them to shut up and accept their oppression.

Black Lives Matter had the attention of the entire nation. How did the nation respond? By electing the guy that considered them a terrorist organization. We tried to have a discussion to protect the lives of black men and women and we were told they don't matter, and that to claim otherwise amounts to terrorism.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Telling Black Americans that they need to have conversations with racists is really just a smug-ass way to get them to shut up and accept their oppression.

Black Lives Matter had the attention of the entire nation. How did the nation respond? By electing the guy that considered them a terrorist organization. We tried to have a discussion to protect the lives of black men and women and we were told they don't matter.

i mean yes but let's be careful, 'the nation' didn't respond. 44% responded. devastating i know, but fully half of this nation is on the right side of history.
 

Maledict

Member
I've said it before, but the entire modern gay rights came from violence. Lesbians, gay men and transgendered people pushed too far too often by authority and power, who finally snapped and kicked back. It changed the course of LGBT history - up until that point, everything had been about 'acting normal' and straight.

People in privledge won't ever want violence, but sometimes it's necessary for change. Not every protest can be Gandhi or Dr. King.
 
i mean yes but let's be careful, 'the nation' didn't respond. 44% responded. devastating i know, but fully half of this nation is on the right side of history.

The silver lining that prevented me from losing my faith in humanity...but it's unfortunately a small concession for the pain coming to black Americans and other minorities going forward. :(
 

RinsFury

Member
Sometimes words alone aren't enough. It's clear now that the white establishment isn't going to relinquish control willingly.
 

Malyse

Member
i mean yes but let's be careful, 'the nation' didn't respond. 44% responded. devastating i know, but fully half of this nation is on the right side of history.
The silver lining that prevented me from losing my faith in humanity...but it's unfortunately a small concession for the pain coming to black Americans and other minorities going forward. :(

Not responding is an extremely loud response. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.
 

Air

Banned
I don't think there's much nuance in your perspective. I wrote in the other thread that the key to breaking down racism is exposure. There's a difference between meeting someone face to face to represent your humanity to them vs. begging them to accept you. It's important to challenge your oppressors, and if they are violent to you I won't be fussed if you defend yourself, but it's important to pick and choose battles and if you can avoid needless violence, that might be preferable for all parties involved.
 
Non violent action has a better chance of sticking and doing good in the long term. While violence has a larger chance of provoking an immediate reaction it is hard to say what that reaction will be. State authorities often use this to their advantage by inserting "agent provocateurs" into peaceful movements to trigger violent clashes with the police. This can be seen as them attempting to control and discredit the movement since an appearance of irrational violence will undermine popular support. Moderate members of the movement will be turned off and stay home next time. Also the police often like to be given an excuse to collect bonus pay and crack skulls.
 

Fladam

Member
Somewhere I recently read the quote that Republicans cannot be reasoned with, they need to be beaten into submission.

Not sure whether it was here, or somewhere else, but it has stuck with me.
 
i mean yes but let's be careful, 'the nation' didn't respond. 44% responded. devastating i know, but fully half of this nation is on the right side of history.

If Trump decides to open concentration camps tomorrow for muslims, gays and alike, the same non-respondents will - yep you guessed it - not respond. They will yet again stick their head in the sand and hope they get out of it unharmed.

So it's just as bad.
 
If Trump decides to open concentration camps tomorrow for muslims, gays and alike, the same non-respondents will - yep you guessed it - not respond. So it's just as bad.

Thats the sad part. It feels like we are being led into a lions mouth and nobody is doing anything about it.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Everytime progress has been made in freeing ones selves from their opressors(whether its the American Revolution, the Mexican War of Independence, the French Revolution, the Civil War, etc.) violence has been an ally.
Was the French Revolution really a good example to use, though? Maybe I'm forgetting history but I thought it involved some serious witchhunting.
 
The majority in this country have no reason to ever stop oppressing the minorities and appealing to their humanity has failed when only a small portion of them actually care.

Course the last group of people to truly raise up against the oppressors of this country were Native Americans and they went genocide on them.
 

celljean89

Neo Member
Every time Black America achieve something huge, the US will always have a backlash. Just like the OP stated, under Reconstruction, JIm Crow, Nixon, and etc. The majority of voters/government will try to put Black America in their place.I do believe in having a conversation with someone that is conservative, that's not a bigot. I also believe it's white allies job to have most of those conversation. I even struggle talking about black oppression with the elders in my family. I think it's because they don't see themselves as black.
 
Was the French Revolution really a good example to use, though? Maybe I'm forgetting history but I thought it involved some serious witchhunting.

Hrmmm

There definitely was witch hunting involved, but I want to say it was mainly the working class getting fed up with being poor while the rich were comfortable.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Was the French Revolution really a good example to use, though? Maybe I'm forgetting history but I thought it involved some serious witchhunting.

The French Revolution is one of those situations with a lot of bad results in the short term but good results in the long term.
 
Oppressed people and Black America especially are THE engine of positive change in this country, it always has been. If Black America stands up and fights once again like they've done for generations good people will join the cause. And let's not forget that there are many ways to fight, not just via violence. Although the credible threat of it is important as it helps empower movements.
 
I tend to believe there to be two distinct human mindsets. One that desires only for itself, and will do anything for benefit of the self. And the other, an altruistic mindset that believes that on the whole things benefiting the group will benefit the self. I do not see these mindsets as compatible. Hence the divide between conservatism and liberalism. I think the only thing keeping conservatism when in power from overwhelming oppression of the group is the threat of violence.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
If Trump decides to open concentration camps tomorrow for muslims, gays and alike, the same non-respondents will - yep you guessed it - not respond. They will yet again stick their head in the sand and hope they get out of it unharmed.

So it's just as bad.
This is a ridiculous opinion. Of course great numbers of people would cause hell if concentration camps started opening around them.
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
—Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”

It is absolutely amazing how true this still is today.

"Oh they're not protesting the right way"

"Now is not the time to be discussing this"

"It doesn't really affect my day to day life, so I'm not sure why I should care"

I think he'd be disappointed with how true his statement still is.
 
This is a ridiculous opinion. Of course great numbers of people would cause hell if concentration camps started opening around them.

But the candidate who won was the one actually entertaining the idea of internment camps for Muslim immigrants, is it really that ridiculous?

The fact is there is a sizable number of Americans who simply would not give a shit and would not speak up if they actually went through with it. Just like they didn't give enough of a shit to stop him.

Sure. Many people would raise hell. I am less inclined these days to believe that enough people would.
 

collige

Banned
So, instead of trying to understand our oppressors we should focus our energy on embracing intersectionality and trying to understand our fellow oppressed so we can breakdown these artificial divisions between us and from a coalition that can collectively not only defeat institutionalized racism, but also homophobia, islamophobia, sexism, classism and other type of -ism's these motherfukcers try to throw at us.

Sure, but some of our fellow oppressed are inherently going to be racists.
 

Verelios

Member
Was the French Revolution really a good example to use, though? Maybe I'm forgetting history but I thought it involved some serious witchhunting.
The French Revolution is the picture of an upper class society taking things too far and common people striking back. French commoners took 10 steps back, repeatedly, with nothing but 'good will' in response and they eventually broke.

What's different is the French were only divided by social class. We're divided by race, class, military strength, organization and mindshare.

Edit: They did indiscriminately execute a lot of people afterwards though
 
I tend to believe there to be two distinct human mindsets. One that desires only for itself, and will do anything for benefit of the self. And the other, an altruistic mindset that believes that on the whole things benefiting the group will benefit the self. I do not see these mindsets as compatible. Hence the divide between conservatism and liberalism. I think the only thing keeping conservatism when in power from overwhelming oppression of the group is the threat of violence.

Conservatives have fairly rigid ways of thinking about the world and easily become disgusted or angered by things that are outside their belief system. This is the main difference.

Theories like the hierarchy of needs say that people can only move past self motivation when their basic needs are met. If people do not feel security in their life then they will be more selfishly motivated. It's hard to try to tell someone that isn't sure that they will be able to stay fed and housed that they need to be more concerned about someone else far away.
 

cheezcake

Member
I really hate how a lot of people ended up conflating

"Let's not call everyone who has a grievance with the Clinton campaign or current democratic platform a racist/bigot/whatever so we can reach more voters"

with

"WE NEED TO CODDLE RACISTS"
 
I really hate how a lot of people ended up conflating

"Let's not call everyone who has a grievance with the Clinton campaign or current democratic platform a racist/bigot/whatever so we can reach more voters"

with

"WE NEED TO CODDLE RACISTS"

Yeah no. People started trying to downplay Trump voters being at best unconcerned with bigotry and at worst completely buying in to an extremely bigoted campaign and candidate, while pushing for trying to win those people over for votes.

This is why things are stuck, because people can't even be honest
 
I've been disgusted by liberals calling for reconciliation, or "telling Trump voters how we feel" and all this other dumb shit. You're not going to convince a group of people who voted for a racist fascist who abuses women that they should be nicer, or that we can work together, or that maybe they can stop killing you (if you're black/brown/gay/trans/etc). They aren't going to stop and you'd be a fool to think otherwise.

The main focus should be on organizing at the state level, helping oppressed people any way you can, and preparing for 2018 and 2020. 2018 will likely be ugly, but 2020 can be a win. Democrats lost a turnout election this year. Don't let it happen again.

Another thing: you better start familiarizing yourself with your state's draconian voter suppression laws and be prepared to fucking deal with it. You have 2-3 years to get the required paperwork and IDs. Get it done, and help organizations that are helping minority voters do the same.
 
The French Revolution is the picture of an upper class society taking things too far and common people striking back. French commoners took 10 steps back, repeatedly, with nothing but 'good will' in response and they eventually broke.

What's different is the French were only divided by social class. We're divided by race, class, military strength, organization and mindshare.

Edit: They did indiscriminately execute a lot of people afterwards though

You say that like the terror was a minor thing, holy shit. Especially when countries like United Kingdom, Nordics, and so on transitioned to democracy and more equal societies without even close to that level of violence. The french revolution is nothing to glorify.
 

cheezcake

Member
Yeah no. People started trying to downplay Trump voters being at best unconcerned with bigotry and at worst completely buying in to an extremely bigoted campaign and candidate, while pushing for trying to win those people over for votes.

This is why things are stuck, because people can't even be honest

Voting in America isn't zero-sum because it's not compulsory. You lost people who voted for Obama, but didn't vote for Clinton in a number of key states. These people didn't vote for Trump. Mine, and those with likeminded arguments, say that the Clinton campaign didn't do anything to incentivise voters in these regions in the same way Obama did. She made no effort to address their grievances with her. We saw so much dogpiling on this forum, instantly, and people being labelled racists if they weren't behind Clinton 100%. We have evidence that this attitude extended more generally beyond this forum. This clearly didn't help the depressed democratic voter turnout in those key states.

No one is saying "we need to understand Trump supporters". We don't. They have clearly chosen to support a bigot. What we need to do is understand why people who generally vote democratic, decided not to vote at all this election. And perhaps labelling anyone who didn't vote Clinton a racist isn't the best way to do that.
 
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