That's not the impression the ending to infinite gave me.
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BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea - Episode Two - Spoiler OT
- Thread starter ElzarTheBam
- Start date
I knew she was going to die, because this is a Noir style story and that's what happens, but yeah the justifications and reasoning behind it all was not that strong and having everything occur so that BioShock 1 events happened was unnecessary, it was a connection that didn't need to happen. The journey itself was awesome, but they payoff was underwhelming. I would have preferred it staying a story within the greater story and not some big integral part of the grand tale.
I never took her as being omniscient, just that she had the ability to see all possibilities, the many doors etc, but that still required her to look through those doors to see what was on the other side. So the fact that she didn't know things, and could be killed are plausible to me.
My biggest annoyance was the whole Big Daddy thing and imprinting, none of that makes any sense. Why did the Big Daddy attack her and Comstock and kill them in Ep 1 if not for being imprinted on Sally, and then how did imprinting those two Little Sisters in Suchong's lab carry over to every other Little Sister/Big Daddy throughout all of Rapture for the events in BioShock1/2 when Elizabeth was the only one who knew how to get them to imprint.
I never took her as being omniscient, just that she had the ability to see all possibilities, the many doors etc, but that still required her to look through those doors to see what was on the other side. So the fact that she didn't know things, and could be killed are plausible to me.
My biggest annoyance was the whole Big Daddy thing and imprinting, none of that makes any sense. Why did the Big Daddy attack her and Comstock and kill them in Ep 1 if not for being imprinted on Sally, and then how did imprinting those two Little Sisters in Suchong's lab carry over to every other Little Sister/Big Daddy throughout all of Rapture for the events in BioShock1/2 when Elizabeth was the only one who knew how to get them to imprint.
Dragon1893
Member
Well, we never see her do anything other than opening tears or travelling to a specific time and place at will. Though that allows her to intervene anywhere she desires and see everything, she can't change things just with the power of her mind.
Like in Ep.1, she travelled to that version of Rapture but she couldn't erase Comstock by snapping her fingers, she had to actually kill him either by shooting him, or using a big daddy like she ended up doing or whatever. She just has the advantage of knowing how everything will play out.
That's why she should've known the big daddy would attack her though the fact that it did doesn't make sense in the first place.
Of course you can be smart with how you use this power if you're threatened. In Infinite when she was being tortured she opened a tear to a tornado. During the ending, to avoid songbird's attack, she teleported into the ocean placing herself and Booker inside Rapture and leaving the bird outside in the water to be crushed by the pressure.
This is different from actually being omnipotent in the sense that you could just turn songbird into a puppy or something.
SoraanTribal
Member
Well, the Luteces specifically call her "omniscient" after the boat ride. I think she was able to see behind all the doors at the same time, but I guess I could potentially buy your theory as a reason why she didn't know she was going to die to the Big Daddy. But honestly, wouldn't she have looked through the "door" to see what would happen after she got revenge on Comstock? I mean, that'd be the first thing I did to make sure it 1) worked and 2) nothing bad happened, lol. *shrug*
Bedameister
Member
No, Big Daddies are not gorillas. They're still humans
The gorilla thing was just an experiment of Fink
Dragon1893
Member
The big daddies are humans.
From the Bioshock Wiki:
Knowing that becoming a Big Daddy would be a "one-way street", Suchong fretted about finding suitable candidates despite Ryan's assurances that it would not be a problem. Although the true identities of the candidates are unknown, many were exiled criminals, the criminally insane, and political dissidents who were prisoners in Persephone. Augustus Sinclair contracted these prisoners out to Fontaine and later Ryan Industries as test subjects in the research labs of Fontaine Futuristics and Point Prometheus.
All this is said in the game.
As for the gorilla, it was an imprint experiment. Songbird seems to be completely mechanical but it is sentient so the theory that there is at least part of an human brain in there makes sense. A program wouldn't react like that when it was saved by Elizabeth, let alone create an actual emotional bond.
Given that there are still numerous diagrams of Songbird with a person at the center of it, I dunno if it's any clearer whether it's man, machine, or both. The wire mothers bit was an interesting touchFink was 20 years ahead of Harry Harlow (or did he see those experiments through the tears?)
Emotions probably got the better of her, desire to kill and punish the last Comstock, but the reason I put stock into her needing to look behind doors is that when she's getting tortured by Atlas and retreats into her mind with Booker to figure out the Ace in the Hole she says she doesn't know because she never looked behind that door, or something to that effect. So she had a vague idea that this was where the AitH was, but that was the extent of her knowledge since she never thought to actually look when she had her powers.
Holy Moly, I knew there was something off about that. It seemed odd in 1912 they already figured that out, let alone cared.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Not sure what your impression was then. If she was omnipotent then the ending would have been a waste of time. She wouldn't of had to convince Booker of anything, show him anything, she could of just snapped her fingers and ended his existence the moment she decided she needed to, leading to a credit roll even more sudden then the sopranos.
Might you be thinking of omnipresence? That's still drastically inaccurate though.
Eh, could be Suchong just told Fink about it. They were collaborating on the entire imprinting thing, probably easier to acquire a Gorilla when you're not underwater in the North Atlantic.
Thank you very much for the explanation.
I played BaS2 in english and the audiophones didnt have subs so I had problems sometimes to get what they were saying.
Im a spanish speaker so thats the reason lol
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
These (and others) are all great questions that Ken Levine should've thought of/cared about. But nope, gotta have dat twist son.
ichtyander
Member
Just completed BaS Ep2 and despite some troublesome details and the overall story, I feel it looked and played very nice (yay stealth) and was probably the most well directed of the overall Bioshock games. Still can't fathom how certain technical inconsistencies and problems are still there like some lousy texture work in certain places, unfiltered textures (especially while looking through rifts, pixelated Suchong etc.) and practically broken custom keyboard controls.
I skimmed through this thread and I guess I kind of understand what happens in the game, as underwhelming yet rewarding as it can be for Bioshock 1 fans. Felt a lot like MGS4.
The one thing I don't understand is - just who the fuck is Sally? I can understand from a global plot position, she might represent all little sisters and Anna relates to them in more ways than one. She's also a sort of a MacGuffin and guides the Bioshock universe to a closed cycle. But who the hell is she? Did I miss or forget something in Bas Ep1? Just looked at the bioshock wiki and it says this for the beginning of BaS Ep2:
I just find this to be all kinds of nonsense. Anna arranges the snuffing of Rapture-Booker with her omnipotent ways and then gets killed by a Big Daddy for some reason? Then has a LOST-like death dream of happiness but the guilt of leaving a pretty much unknown orphan girl makes her reanimate herself in a mortal form? Am I understanding this correctly?
On the other hand, this episode surprised me several times with moments that ended being highly emotional to me which doesn't happen very often with games. That intro just about broke my heart. All in all it was a good experience but ultimately unnecessary, in my opinion.
I skimmed through this thread and I guess I kind of understand what happens in the game, as underwhelming yet rewarding as it can be for Bioshock 1 fans. Felt a lot like MGS4.
The one thing I don't understand is - just who the fuck is Sally? I can understand from a global plot position, she might represent all little sisters and Anna relates to them in more ways than one. She's also a sort of a MacGuffin and guides the Bioshock universe to a closed cycle. But who the hell is she? Did I miss or forget something in Bas Ep1? Just looked at the bioshock wiki and it says this for the beginning of BaS Ep2:
I just find this to be all kinds of nonsense. Anna arranges the snuffing of Rapture-Booker with her omnipotent ways and then gets killed by a Big Daddy for some reason? Then has a LOST-like death dream of happiness but the guilt of leaving a pretty much unknown orphan girl makes her reanimate herself in a mortal form? Am I understanding this correctly?
On the other hand, this episode surprised me several times with moments that ended being highly emotional to me which doesn't happen very often with games. That intro just about broke my heart. All in all it was a good experience but ultimately unnecessary, in my opinion.
Lionel Mandrake
Member
Her earlier "Booker? Are you there? ... I miss you," nearly killed me.
SoraanTribal
Member
I'm still a little confused about Elizabeth. So after beating the main game, the most common theory was Elizabeth ceased to exist - they started to vanish, and the final musical note happened, the screen went black on that last Elizabeth. I believe most of us assumed she vanished as well when the screen went black. Columbia will not exist, Comstock will not exist, Elizabeth will not exist, Anna WILL exist, etc.
Then the first DLC is released. Then the theory I saw the most of was that it was that final Elizabeth - Elizabeth "Prime" or whatever. The rest of them still vanished except that one at the very end of Infinite (because reasons). Maybe she didn't vanish because one Comstock managed to avoid the purge by escaping into another universe where he wouldn't exist (Rapture). Okay, that kind of makes sense, I guess.
But now in Episode 2, we find out that the supposed "Elizabeth Prime" (the one from Ep 1) was killed by a Big Daddy (I still don't think this makes any sense whatsoever given her powers). But there's still another Elizabeth left (who still had her pinky chopped off - you can see it is missing in the fake-Paris parts during the intro)... So does this mean there were still an infinite number of Elizabeths out there and then they all collapsed into one entity and became human at the start of Ep 2 when she went back to Rapture? So Elizabeth is now completely dead? I think I prefer the idea of her giving up her existence at the end of Infinite to stop the cycle and pretend Burial at Sea never happened.
Yeah, loved that part, too. And then the part where Booker was walking Elizabeth down the hallway to find the "ace". Her performance there was fantastic.
Then the first DLC is released. Then the theory I saw the most of was that it was that final Elizabeth - Elizabeth "Prime" or whatever. The rest of them still vanished except that one at the very end of Infinite (because reasons). Maybe she didn't vanish because one Comstock managed to avoid the purge by escaping into another universe where he wouldn't exist (Rapture). Okay, that kind of makes sense, I guess.
But now in Episode 2, we find out that the supposed "Elizabeth Prime" (the one from Ep 1) was killed by a Big Daddy (I still don't think this makes any sense whatsoever given her powers). But there's still another Elizabeth left (who still had her pinky chopped off - you can see it is missing in the fake-Paris parts during the intro)... So does this mean there were still an infinite number of Elizabeths out there and then they all collapsed into one entity and became human at the start of Ep 2 when she went back to Rapture? So Elizabeth is now completely dead? I think I prefer the idea of her giving up her existence at the end of Infinite to stop the cycle and pretend Burial at Sea never happened.
Yeah, loved that part, too. And then the part where Booker was walking Elizabeth down the hallway to find the "ace". Her performance there was fantastic.
I still think she was willing to give up her existence at the end of Infinite, except one final Comstock survived (since he was in an universe he wasn't supposed to, so his existence in that universe did not have a "pre-baptism" Booker to erase). This probably prevented the final Elizabeth, the one who realizes her true power, to survive, and she's the one in BaS1.
Then that Elizabeth dies (Elizabeth is not really "omniscent", she just can see through all the tears and predict every possible outcome... doesn't mean she can clearly see the future of her own universe, does it? Else she already would have used this power in Infinite many times). So when she dies she becomes a being without matter capable of travelling to every universe at will but evidently unable to materially interact with it: just like the Luteces. Quantum superposition.
Yet she willingly decides to regain her "flesh" in the Rapture universe because she wants to save Sally (the dreamlike sequence and the guilt, of course nothing of that part is real, it's just the "immaterial" Elizabeth visualizing things... she says "I could have stayed in Paris" or something like that right? she has a pinky missing because that's how Elizabeth visualizes herself and that is just a dream). The female Lutece says something on this matter in a voxaphone. It's something like "me and my brother, we could get back to our phisical forms but we'd lose all our powers, the mysteries would go back to being mysteries". This is what happened to the Elizabeth from BaS2. Lost her connection to the multiverse.
What happens at the end... well my guess is that Atlas actually performs the transcranial lobotomy at least in part, giving her back some or her powers, or maybe she already retained some and the partial lobotomy helped that process... has anyone noticed the big lobotomy poster in the initial sequence, when Paris turns into a nightmare? And the lobotomy flyer in the airplane cabin during the first sequence? So she sees the plane hijack, the code, Jack saving Sally. The circle is closed. A beautiful image to close the series in my opinion.
The more I read the less I understand lol!
1- what was Elizabeth doing in the plane Jack hijacked?
2- the ace in the hole (aka "would you kindly"). I know thats the phrase atlas uses in B1 on Jack to force him doing what Atlas wants. Where does that phrase comes from? Why did it affect Jack? Its been a long time since a beat B1 so I might be forgetting a lot of things :/
1- what was Elizabeth doing in the plane Jack hijacked?
2- the ace in the hole (aka "would you kindly"). I know thats the phrase atlas uses in B1 on Jack to force him doing what Atlas wants. Where does that phrase comes from? Why did it affect Jack? Its been a long time since a beat B1 so I might be forgetting a lot of things :/
Lionel Mandrake
Member
1. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's just Elizabeth remembering "seeing behind the doors." Booker says that she saw through doors that showed the future, and that part was just Elizabeth "remembering" what was going to happen to Rapture.
2. Going by the audio logs, Suchong brainwashed Jack from a young age to respond to the trigger phrase. I don't think they say exactly how Suchong implemented it.
She's not physically there, she's just witnessing through a tear, she just sees the airplane. Her reflection in the mirror is all covered in blood and her clothes are torn, just like she is after Atlas hit her.
It's just a phrase like another, could have been anything else, like a password. Suchong and Tenenbaum reconditioned Jack as a child to respond to that phase in particular. It's similar to the Pavlov's dog experiment, conditioned reflexes and all that. They "rewired" Jack's brain to respond to that phrase by executing the order. Throughout all Bioshock Jack does everything Atlas asks of him everytime Atlas says "would you kindly...?".
There's a chalkboard in Suchong's clinics talking about reconditioning therapies. Again, Pavlov's dog.
The perfect Dark
Banned
I have to say it again:
I hate how Levine just ignores
. I love this game and the story doesn't make any sense now.
The Story of Episode 2 is still crap though. Infinite was great, Episode 1 was fantastic (but too short) and Episode 2 destroyed everything.
I hate how Levine just ignores
Bioshock 2
The Story of Episode 2 is still crap though. Infinite was great, Episode 1 was fantastic (but too short) and Episode 2 destroyed everything.
To be fair, there was a lot that didn't really make sense even in Bioshock's own story--like how everything had to fall to shit immediately, yet they still pushed out Big Daddies, put little sister vents everywhere, yadda yadda, and all the corpses were left conveniently around for you to find.
ButchCat
Member
You can't accept no explanation and still go on with it, it wasn't even implied. Ken that's cheating you've got to either chose magic or science, you can't coat the former by the latter.
How it is that events from Episode 1 and 2 are connected chronologically (it's still the same year 1958) and the Big Daddy being the protective father he is reacts to Sally's cries "Mr Bubbles" gets both Booker and Elizabeth killed at the end of Episode 1 in the process implying that Big Daddy already imprints on Little Sisters, yet the first time we see a Big Daddy imprinting on Little Sisters doesn't happen until later in the Rapture Civil War with BaS-E2 LIZ being the only witness. There is a time paradox here and Episode 2 pretends there isn't.
I wound up enjoying actually playing Episode 2. Its cool that once you got to the "hub" area you could just explore most of the areas and find upgrades at your leisure and didnt have to go straight to the Silverfin Restaurant.
The story itself is still the same direct-to-dvd/starwars prequel levels of bullshit that Episode 1 is. Completely disappointing. Part of it felt like Ken wanted a way to make sure no one else could touch the characters of Infinite once he was done with them so he just killed them all off (Bookers dead, Elizabeth is mortal because of ... reasons and now dead, the Luteces are implied to return to being mortal)
The story itself is still the same direct-to-dvd/starwars prequel levels of bullshit that Episode 1 is. Completely disappointing. Part of it felt like Ken wanted a way to make sure no one else could touch the characters of Infinite once he was done with them so he just killed them all off (Bookers dead, Elizabeth is mortal because of ... reasons and now dead, the Luteces are implied to return to being mortal)
BUNTING1243
Banned
The perfect Dark
Banned
I don't get this. Most of the reviews said the same.
In my opinion Episode 1 contains much more "Hub" areas. There's more to see and it's more rewarding to explore the areas in Episode 1. Episode 2 is completely linear.
Imo:
Episode 1: Level design similar to Bioshock 1/2
Episode 2: Bioshock Infinite
SoraanTribal
Member
Episode 2 wasn't "completely linear". The hub part he's referring to is where the Big Daddy roams. There's a few areas there that branch off from it, and you can explore them before continuing on with the story if you wish (which is what I did). Episode 1 also had that.
The perfect Dark
Banned
You can explore them before continuing with the story but you have to visit the locations nonetheless.
You don't have to explore the (huge) first area or the hidden locations in Episode 1. It was optional. It's not optional in Episode 2.
How is a game that gives you three objectives you can complete in any order, two of which in areas on opposite ends of the map "completely linear".
Oh i see we're arguing semantics.
SoraanTribal
Member
I'm not sure I follow. So because you HAD to go into those areas eventually, the game is still linear? Wha? If the other areas were completely closed off preventing you from exploring the hub prior to continuing on with the story, I would agree with you. But that's not the case.
The perfect Dark
Banned
It's linear compared to Bioshock 1+2 . It's not a linear game per se.
It was certainly a bit more open than Infinite, but... it still kinda felt like most of the areas that were part of hubs were all still part of places you HAD to go to during a mission. You could get there before you explored them, but they really only existed for fetch quests and stuff.
I mostly liked getting all of the powers and weapons early. I didnt mind having to fight the respawned splicers since it gave me a reason to use the stuff I found. There wasnt much of a gameplay reason to explore the open areas of the mall in BaS 1, and the audiologs/environment-told stories were unmemorable (at least to me)
I did explore every possible inch of the opening area to BaS ep 1 and that was probably my favorite part out of these two DLCs
I did explore every possible inch of the opening area to BaS ep 1 and that was probably my favorite part out of these two DLCs
Re: Episode 1's Big Daddy and Sally, I think it's clear that they DID imprint. Remember they're in the sunken part of the city with no connection so left to their own devices it's not that hard to think a similar "lion's paw" moment happened between them earlier in the story. It would explain why Sally is free in the first place since the reason she's down there was that she was sold by Cohen to someone, so she should have been in their possession.
ButchCat
Member
If true that is lazy storytelling as evidently surveillance was at least partially online in some areas of the sunken part of the city (Suchong comments on Elizabeth being a pretty lady). In other words, it would mean that Suchong has conveniently been blindfolded all this time until Elizabeth broke in. Plus Suchong died knowing that he didn't find the solution to imprinting and the only lucky observer to figure it out was Elizabeth who dies anyway.
PedroLumpy
Member
I enjoyed Burial at Sea, but I don't see how it makes any sense in the context of the ending to Bioshock Infinite. I'm just going to go with them being separate stories.
TheUsual
Gold Member
I just finished episode 2 and my immediate get away is that this was one of the many possibilities in the universe. This DLC was just telling us this tale.
GodParticle
Member
They've really done a fantastic job with the elizabeth character. The voice actress really sells it
matrixman92
Member
I thought episode 2 was beautifully done, 1 could have been a lot better. Overall, it was the perfect ending to irrational's Bioshock story.
Its going to get fucked in the future
I just finished it, I'm glad to see they brought the story full circle, and I honestly hope the franchise ends there. It would be a great place to end it.
I felt like there was a major "bananamachines" moment though. Why the fuck did Suchong need to code his notes like that other than for story purposes? Like they were his personal research and he has all these drawings and diagrams and shit everywhere and then he has these notes that just say random little tidbits written in his code.
Then the "Ace in the hole" literally says "THIS IS THE FUCKING THING ATLAS AND HIS GUYS ARE LOOKING FOR" on the outside of it in plain english, and then you open it up and it's in code now too. Yet not a few minutes before that you pick up a recording just laying around of him using the "would you kindly" phrase...really?
I felt like there was a major "bananamachines" moment though. Why the fuck did Suchong need to code his notes like that other than for story purposes? Like they were his personal research and he has all these drawings and diagrams and shit everywhere and then he has these notes that just say random little tidbits written in his code.
Then the "Ace in the hole" literally says "THIS IS THE FUCKING THING ATLAS AND HIS GUYS ARE LOOKING FOR" on the outside of it in plain english, and then you open it up and it's in code now too. Yet not a few minutes before that you pick up a recording just laying around of him using the "would you kindly" phrase...really?
Just finished it, kind of let down. All this really did was poorly tie Infinite into a prequel for BioShock 1. Not only was this completely unnecessary, but the order of operations with Big Daddy imprinting makes no sense at all.
The DLC was great (and honestly should be a stand alone title) through, but just really awkward at the end. And really I just feel horrible for that poor dog.
The DLC was great (and honestly should be a stand alone title) through, but just really awkward at the end. And really I just feel horrible for that poor dog.
Why do you imply the first time we see a Big Daddy imprinting a Little Sister is the first time it happens at all? The imprint mechanism is love, it can happen anytime. It's not something you can put inside the Little Sister or the Big Daddy. That's what the imprinting stuff in Burial2 is all about.
It's clearly a note meant for somebody, probably Ryan since Suchong works for him.
About the coded messages, stuff written in the chalkboard is usually maths gibberish no one is supposed to understand or it's just irrelevant (and inside his personal laboratory btw, which is already heavily guarded), notes are memo intended for Ryan, they have to go out of the laboratory, hence the need for coding.
I think that's right. All of Suchongs experiments on imprinting failed because there's no chemical formula or something like that to accomplish it. It's simply based on empathy.
And a "lion's paw" moment could've happened anytime with any big daddy and little sister. There doesn't need to be a singular first imprint so that the sisters and daddies know how it works. It just happens because of pure human emotions.
That really contrasts the whole Ryan/Rapture/Objectivity theme the city/society was built upon.
Dragon1893
Member
Sorry but that is just completely wrong. Episode 2 is a lot more open. What the hell dude?
The place where they make the handymen is completely optional. That whole area where you can do the "retrieve 4 coded messages" sidequests really shows how open-ended the design is. Doing that quest really reminded me of Bioshock 2's level design which was the best for me in that regard. You can access that whole area from the start and explore at your own leisure. Lots of optional rooms with power ups and items too.
Besides, what kind of arguement is that? So what if you have to visit them eventually? That's not what linearity means lol.
tringworldso
Member
My brain hurts. This is why I hate time travel. It just makes everything so confusing. I was hoping for some answers regarding the below:-
1) What happened to the Booker from the post credits scene at the end of Bioshock Infinite?
2) Elizabeth referred to BaS protagonist as "the last Comstock". Does that mean she has killed all of them?
3) So the Elizabeth from B:I and BaS died and this new Elizabeth is from another universe? What?
4) So the "Booker" talking to her was actually her memories taking the shape of the only person who was her friend?
5) At the end when Elizabeth was flashing onto the plane and put a hand on Jack... was that real? Also she flashes to this weird place where we see papa Booker from Infinite.. what was that?
6) Did Kevin just ignore the entire Bioshock 2 canon or did I actually see the B2 protagonist big daddy in the hub where Elizabeth runs trying to fix the machines?
7) Why do I feel so miffed at the DLC tying into Bioshock 1? I couldn't care less about Jack.
8) What was the point of completing the coded messages side-quest? Elizabeth never brought that up after the "small make-up room" reveal.
1) What happened to the Booker from the post credits scene at the end of Bioshock Infinite?
2) Elizabeth referred to BaS protagonist as "the last Comstock". Does that mean she has killed all of them?
3) So the Elizabeth from B:I and BaS died and this new Elizabeth is from another universe? What?
4) So the "Booker" talking to her was actually her memories taking the shape of the only person who was her friend?
5) At the end when Elizabeth was flashing onto the plane and put a hand on Jack... was that real? Also she flashes to this weird place where we see papa Booker from Infinite.. what was that?
6) Did Kevin just ignore the entire Bioshock 2 canon or did I actually see the B2 protagonist big daddy in the hub where Elizabeth runs trying to fix the machines?
7) Why do I feel so miffed at the DLC tying into Bioshock 1? I couldn't care less about Jack.
8) What was the point of completing the coded messages side-quest? Elizabeth never brought that up after the "small make-up room" reveal.