I was mainly curious about the shutting of the Lotte stores, tourism ban(?) etc, but thats interesting too. Thanks.
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China is very angry about South Korea right now
- Thread starter Blablurn
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It's curious that they'd react so harshly to it, but I'm also not really privy to the larger sphere of southeast asian politics. Are they worried about its surveillance capabilities or is there something bigger going on? Because being able to have a surface "look in" to the country doesn't really seem like a huge deal, at least on its face.
China has also been canceling performances of Korean artists with scheduled events in China. I have zero read on people's reaction to this outside the news and some youtube videos of interviews with random citizens but I'd guess most people's reaction to this kind of stuff ranges from somewhat apathetic to somewhat negative.
This problem with this comparison is the security situation involving Cuba is completely different than South Korea. It's perfectly reasonable for SK to want a system like THAAD in place.The THAAD system comes with an extremely high range AN/TPY-2 radar that can easily be configured to surveillance the northeast of China (and you can bet the US military will just do that), which besides Bejing and Shangai also is where most of the Chinese military is based including their Headquarters. And that's a radar that's able to detect missiles, in FBR mode it can also easily pick up any plane etc. The missile system isn't the problem (it couldn't shoot down any missiles launched in China that are aimed at targets outside Korea anyway and can only fire in a limited arc facing towards NK), the radar system is:
Just imagine if China was stationing one of those things in Cuba. You'd get one hell of a harsh reaction too and severity of the threat to the US wouldn't be even comparable to what the AN/TPY-2 deployment means to China.
Recently held a presentation on the topic in my international politics class, if there are questions I might be able to answer them.
Harsh? I think they are pretty mild about it, an anti-missile system right next to them is something that would make the russians shit bricks. China must be aware that this is a move against NK but they also need to have a reaction.
Jaguar Victory
Member
We need to build a few Gundam Frames and put them on the parallel just to fuck with the North Koreans.
Liberals are against it as they see at is an act of creating even more unnecessary tension in the area, while conservatives are for it because they want the protection that THAAD rovides
I've always been against THADD because it's diplomatic suicide. It's smarter for Korea to maintain stable relationships with both China and the US.
Instead the government placed all of their cards on the US, and now Trump is in charge. We're fucked
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
False equivalence.
South Korea faces an existential threat and hostile nuclear power immediately north of its border. Not comparable.
I mean, presumably the Chinese-Russian border has anti-missile defense systems in place. The only thing that I could picture being a major concern here must have something to do with the range, but again, that makes me wonder what it is within the range that they're worried about being seen (that I guess somehow couldn't be seen by satellite-based surveillance systems?).
RedAssedApe
Banned
Hmm. Anyone else think of blue mountain state when they read thaad?
HoodWinked
Member
this is so much worse than the travel restrictions that united states imposed and yet this is not even news worthy to most.
the fucked up thing is that china is the one that helps prop up north korea so its like they create the problem but then get mad that south korea wants to defend itself from the problem china contributed to causing.
the fucked up thing is that china is the one that helps prop up north korea so its like they create the problem but then get mad that south korea wants to defend itself from the problem china contributed to causing.
Let's say Cuba needs one for whatever legitimate reason, it would still rankle the US.
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
If that was the only reason for the THAAD deployment they could use a shorter ranged radar then, not one that outstrips the range of the missiles (or NK in it's entirety) several times over. See the solid orange circle on my map? That's the effective detect+intercept range of the missile system itself. They wouldn't need anything more than that.
I agree that the missiles themselves are needed (Patriot is not up to par any longer with the missiles NK has), but the reason we have the current situation is because of the radar alone which is complete overkill for the task it is supposedly onely to be used for.
If the current radar is kept it will escalate into an arms race as China will be forced to drastically improve it's radar immune long range attack capabilities against the US, which they will have to respond to in turn, something no one wants.
Meh China will hit its economic walls pretty soon.
Their military power is tiny and lesser tech compared to America's.
Military power is much more than technology. Logistics, production capacity, cost, support from the public and readiness are just as important. US readiness is the lowest it's been in a very long time
Let us also keep in mind that the current version of the US government continues to border between being incomplete to dysfunctional.
They aren't doing enough to mitigate RNK and they have the stones to get pissy over what other countries do within their own borders to ready themselves? Kinda hard to meet them in the middle here.
Chittagong
Gold Member
China's global reach is phenomenal. Whether it's Kyrgyzstan or Rwanda, they are doing huge construction and infrastructure business, with local governments on their laps and gold mines received in exchange for roads. They are extremely skilled in their trade and have barely scratched the surface of their global opportunity so no, I wouldn't expect them to slow down anytime soon.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-economic-problems-will-come-to-a-head-in-2017-2016-11-23
They have so many deep core problems. They just announced a reduction in growth targets under the guise of being environment-friendly.
Actually, the sooner every non-western countries see how western countries think in general, the better for all of us.
That's not how it works. They need to detect launches as far away as possible to get the missile to that range when the warhead reaches it. If the system only detects threats to the maximum range of the missile it mean most of the range of the missile is useless, it could never reach those ranges quick enough to reach the incoming warhead.
It's late here, apologies if that is unclear.
i3allistic
Member
Who's ready for a military draft...WW III
There are much better ways to spy on countries than with this type of radar. Spying via satellite, for example, is significantly more useful than whatever information can be gleamed by the radar used for this.
Also, as mentioned by Dead Man, anti-missile systems need to track missiles long before they can engage them, hence the need for the radar to have a much greater range than the actual missiles.
NK constantly threatens SK and Japan with annihilation and test fires missiles to back up those threats. U.S. and SK respond by trying to neutralize that threat since China refuses to take a harder stance on Kim Jong Un's hissy fits. China is now angry because a situation is getting out of control that they refused to alleviate even though they could have. Great logic there.
darkhunger
Member
The reduction is widely cited as being a result of Trump's threat to impose tariffs though, even in the article. All export economies in the region are facing similar issues right now.
The article you cited doesn't really talk about those "deep core problems" you mention... Yes corporate debt is high and construction companies are highly leveraged and at risk and are a big part of the economy by the article actually says the government is well aware of it and is addressing it, and is just throwing speculation at those efforts.
That the China government is highly effective at addressing structural concerns in its economy is understated in the West, and they have been extremely nimble the last decade in transforming a supply driven economy to a demand driven one. People only see the decline in growth but if you think they will collapse soon because of so called "deep core problems" you should think again.
Yep
HideyoshiJP
Member
Just compromise. Promise to put tape over the China part of the radar map.
I expected this to pop up much sooner.
Theonik
Member
This is a very weird distinction. The US has posed an existential threat to Cuba ever since Castro took power including the Bay of Pigs fiasco. This also has nothing to do with whether these deployments are justified, for their respective nations of course they would be, it's whether either side would accept it which of course they wouldn't.
freeofgreed
Member
Well maybe if China would stop letting NK launch fucking missles all the time. SK wouldn't have needed Thaad in the first place.
PdotMichael
Banned
It was also absolutely reasonable for the SU so act like that after the USA putting their nuclear missiles in Turkey.
There is no moral high ground kin geopolitics.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Keep in mind also that Easy D is in charge and the State Dept remains gutted.
Have a nice day! :/
Have a nice day! :/
andythinkpad
Member
The push back from China right now is still very controlled and limited. The SK opposition party has a real chance to win the next election. They have a better relationship with Beijing.
So my theory is that the "punishments" are only limit to Lotte group and it can go either way after the South Korea election. See China's relationship with Philippine after Duterte won the election.
So my theory is that the "punishments" are only limit to Lotte group and it can go either way after the South Korea election. See China's relationship with Philippine after Duterte won the election.
You would have a point if the situations were remotely similar but they're not. In order to make them similar this is what would have to happen: Another country,let say Haiti, went rogue and constantly made threats to Cuba to destroy them. Cuba enters into a strategic partnership with China and now China is supplying a defense measure for Cuba to defend itself because the U.S. ally Haiti continues their threats with missile tests and despite the fact that the U.S. could reign in Haiti, they refuse. Now in that scenario, you're right, the U.S. and SK would have no right to complain.
It's not about moral high ground, it's about reality.
SK needs a missile defense system, Cuba doesn't.
Everyone is rushing to dismantle the Cuba argument, bravo! he was just saying a nation near us. Look at how far the radar goes into China, and can/will be used as illegal monitoring.
He says the effective range is in the orange, and the actual range is further than the weapons. Thus. Being a concern for china.
It makes sense.
THAAD is 1 part defense that no one would mind. But then it comes with a powerful radar that can be used to spy with bigger radius than is effective for the weapon.
It makes sense to not want that near your country.
He says the effective range is in the orange, and the actual range is further than the weapons. Thus. Being a concern for china.
It makes sense.
THAAD is 1 part defense that no one would mind. But then it comes with a powerful radar that can be used to spy with bigger radius than is effective for the weapon.
It makes sense to not want that near your country.
1. The argument is still moot. No nation near us has a reasonable concern about ballistic missiles being fired at them from an unstable nation.
2. The anti missile system doesn't work without a powerful radar. You can't have one without the other.
3. Radar monitoring of China using THAAD would be a lot less effective than other intelligence gathering methods we already have and use.
I'm sure in your presentation you looked at the specifications of the THAAD system and realize that the additional radar improve effectiveness. Why would SK want to deploy a suboptimal system that is design to protect them against an existential threat.
What international law makes spying illegal? China ignores rulings about south china sea rights why should we give a fuck what they think.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Well, if it turns their attention away from bullying all their other neighbours in Asia, there's one positive.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Why would "no one mind" the missile defense but be angry about spying? Look at how vitriolically Russia reacts with they put missile defense 2 countries over in Romania. There's already radar penetrating into China (not as far), there's already full spy satellite coverage, there's already electronic spying, there's already presumably HUMINT spying embedded in the country. On the other hand, Terminal phase missile defense would throw a spanner in the works of a hypothetical first strike on bases in South Korea/Japan in the event of a war breaking out and significantly complicate the operation of those non-nuclear ballistic missiles that China is so fond of these days in their military planning.
This feels as bizarro world as if a roving motorcycle gang was trashing your house but your complaint to the police was that they walked across your garden instead of using the footpath. The Cuba example is frankly bizarre because putting a radar station in Cuba alone wouldn't have triggered anything like the cuban missile crisis, but putting ballistic missile defense definitely would cause a reaction (I think the cuba default argument is shit in general because the strategic situations are completely unrelated in real life but I digress). China is acting like the BMD is totally not what they're upset about, but I find that unfathomable.
How South Koreans handle Chinese boycott - With a parody: "Please come to South Korea, which is safe, clean, calm, and no Chinese!" goes viral on Korean SNS
Source: http://soda.donga.com/Main/3/all/37/865383/1
Source: http://soda.donga.com/Main/3/all/37/865383/1
I dont get it. Who is this to? Isnt China the majority of tourists there?
I think this is more like a joke
But Taiwan experienced a similar thing. When China got angry about Taiwan, they started blocking tourism to Taiwan, which obviously was a huge blow for the country, but also lead to more visitors from other countries.
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