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[Fahzgoolin]

I'm unashamedly a gun nut in video games. FPS's are automatically more entertaining to me just because I love the gameplay feedback. Oddly enough, I'm not super into guns IRL. I think they are amazing pieces of tech that are still comically crude. They are basically just hollowed-out metal poles that have an explosion behind them to propel a chunk of metal.

I'm saying all of this to make the point that I think that sometimes games with weighty, awkward, unweildy, and almost unpredictable gunplay can feel more satisfying and rewarding for the player.

One of my favorite examples is the original Metro 2033 (NOT the CODified Redux). The original was frequently shat on by many for having "awkward feeling gunplay", or "clunky shooting." I actually agree with that, but I think it works in its favor. You can get good and precise in that game, but the guns feel appropriately makeshift and human. You line up a shot with your revolver and get excited when you make the shot. The shotguns feel great. The "bastard gun" feels appropriately janky like it's supposed to be. The original game was a success in contextual story based gameplay interactions. I think it also works because of the slower pace of the encounters and enemy types. Unfortunately, the original isn't being sold anymore and only the Redux versions are available; featuring COD style aim-feel with pretty glowing iron sights.

Another older example is TimeSplitters 2. Can you imagine if it's challenge based story missions featured COD-like precise and aim-assisted gunplay? It would be terrible. Part of the gleeful satisfaction of the game is embracing how darn difficult it is to line up a shot because you have to do Goldeneye 64 style hard aiming at times. It makes every encounter intense, gratifying, and appropriately frustrating. Time Splitters
3 Future Perfect deviated from this aiming style, but Free Radical was smart enough to design their enemies and levels around the modern style of shooting in the campaign in a good way.

One more quick example is Counter Strike. I'm actually quite bored of the game itself, but I fire it up and revisit it just to buy a desert eagle and land a long distance one shot kill on a rifle wielding enemy. I boot it up just to show myself and feel how good it is to control the recoil pattern on the AK and make precise sprays with it. It's naturally unintuitive, but feels so good. I love watching new players drop their jaws in bewilderment and exclaim, "How are my shots not hitting them!? It was right on em! How are they so good? Can't I ADS?"

Aiming a real gun IRL is not easy and it's great when games make it appropriately challenging or unweildy.

I love it when games appropriately make the gunplay feel a little cumbersome or awkward because it makes me feel connected with the weapon in a way that COD can never make me feel. When I master clunky or cumbersome shooters it strokes my silly little vain gaming ego...kind of like how Dark Souls sword combat can be awkward AF, but it feels good to master. Dark Souls has many enemy combat design choices that piss me off. However, even when I'm angry at the game, the simple, awkward, yet challenging, swordplay feels incredible. It's why I compulsively buy them and beat them even though they trigger me.

I want to contrast this with a recent example of an awkward aiming interaction that ruined a game for many: Halo 5. The gameplay is fast and chaotic. Enemies are bobbing, weeving, charging, and a fleeing a lot

Spoiler

sprint in Halo is gross

. All of those things aren't all bad in and of themselves, but the feeling of aiming just didn't feel right with the action on screen. 343 even updated it with deeper sensitivity, dead zone, and aim acceleration options, but it didn't help too much. IMO the game needs a little more aim-assist. Not Destiny levels, but more along the lines of Halo 2. IMO the game in its current form would be better experienced and a more fun game on PC with keyboard and mouse due to the level of precision that you can achieve with them. That could be another conversion though.

Ultimately, I think that developers shouldn't be afraid of using purposefully clunky or left-of-center gunplay if it fits the context and design for the game. I wish devs would stop trying to be like COD in their gunplay (Metro Redux series). I likewise don't want devs swinging the other way and making aiming harder for the sake of it (Halo 5). Ironically, Halo 5 still had to shoe-horn in ADS cuz of their demographic's CODspectations.

Anyone else have examples of this? Doesn't just have to be shooters!

 

[Alienous]

You're saying clunky but I think you mean weighty. Clunky, to me, carries to connotation of a bad technical implementation.

Killzone 2 would be an example of that, and while it was novel it was also terribly unresponsive.

 

[jem0208]

Gunna disagree about Halo 5

Spoiler

obviously I would

. It had a genuine technical problem in that there was some input lag causing the aiming to feel "heavy". Once they release the update to fix that it's been absolutely fine imo. They definitely shouldn't increase the auto aim. Also H5's ADS has a negligible impact on the gameplay.



That said I agree, although I think you're more talking about weighty rather than clunky. Bad Company 2 on console is a good example I think. IMO it felt far better than layer Battlefield titles because of how weighty and satisfying the guns felt.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

Deadly Premonition. Probably wasn't intentional but the wonky tank controls make the player feel more out of their element and feed into the game's mindfuckery.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

You're saying clunky but I think you mean weighty.

I used both terms. Clunky can mean heavy or archaic in our gaming circles. Contrast that with how the COD's and Titanfall's are described as "modern and intuitive".

CSGO is "clunky" in the sense of its archaic reliance on hip fire.

Saw your edit. I agree, Killzone 1/2 felt weird and awkward, but it made you feel connected to the world.

 

[riesenkartoffel]

I agree, Killzone 1/2 felt weird and awkward, but it made you feel connected to the world.

if anything it made me feel disconnected from the world, as if I was controlling some sort of tank or something rather than myself (which is what an fps should feel like imo)

 

[ffejeromdiks]

I think the input delay/animation priority improves some games as well. Gta5 for example wouldnt be nearly as fun to mess around in if its controls were instantaneous. Gives a grounded weighty feel. I know a lot of people cant stand that about the game but its definitely worth all the physics hijinks that it allows.

 

[Hyun Sai]

CSGO is clunky in the sense of its archaic reliance on hip fire.

Overwatch is heavily Hip fire. If anything, it's Aim down the sight the clunky mechanic as it slows down your movement.

That's why I was happy to see its success after all the bullshit about how every FPS should be ADS or they would die (I look at you Bungie and Destiny). I believe Paladins is also a Hip fire game.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Gunna disagree about Halo 5

Spoiler

obviously I would

. It had a genuine technical problem in that there was some input lag causing the aiming to feel "heavy". Once they release the update to fix that it's been absolutely fine imo. They definitely shouldn't increase the auto aim. Also H5's ADS has a negligible impact on the gameplay.



That said I agree, although I think you're more talking about weighty rather than clunky. Bad Company 2 on console is a good example I think. IMO it felt far better than layer Battlefield titles because of how weighty and satisfying the guns felt.

I always respect your opinion and thanks fir educating me about the technical issue. I still returned to it afterwards and it still just didn't feel good enough to me. I have seen and heard many say the same. Halo 5 is a fine game, but I think the style of gameplay that the new mechanics created makes the really low aim-assist feel terrible. People can say "git gud", but I have gotten good when I put the time and effort into it. Fighting with the anolog sticks in that game feels like a negative instead of a positive.

This is of course all very subjective and what we want from a game.

 

[Alienous]

I used both terms. Clunky can mean heavy or archaic in our gaming circles. Contrast that with how the COD's and Titanfall's are described as "modern and intuitive".

CSGO is "clunky" in the sense of its archaic reliance on hip fire.

Saw your edit. I agree, Killzone 1/2 felt weird and awkward, but it made you feel connected to the world.

I suppose you're right. I generally think of 'clunky' as a bad implementation of a targeted system. Like a 'clunky' inventory menu, or 'clunky' driving mechanics - whereas I wouldn't think of a game with weighty driving as 'clunky'.

But then Resident Evil 5 comes to mind, with shooting mechanics that I'd struggle to describe without using the word clunky, and I'd argue that aided the tension of the game. So I see where you're coming from.

 

[BigEmil]

Dark Souls clunky gameplay is a good example of this

 

[gtvdave]

Alpha Protocol ... remember? I have no idea why I finished that game.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I suppose you're right. I generally think of 'clunky' as a bad implementation of a targeted system. Like a 'clunky' inventory menu, or 'clunky' driving mechanics - whereas I wouldn't think of a game with weighty driving as 'clunky'.

But then Resident Evil 5 comes to mind, with shooting mechanics that I'd struggle to describe without using the word clunky, and I'd argue that aided the tension of the game. So I see where you're coming from.

Oooo! Perfect example, as I'm replaying through that with my wife lol. The aiming and movement is a real struggle, but the slower dumb enemies allow you to enjoy that awkwardness and perceive it as fun tension.

 

[Tain]

This is pretty much just examples of mechanics imposing limitations on the player, right? A fundamental part of video games. Specifically limitations that go against "accessibility" or "flow" I guess.

Some of my favorite things that coming to mind are the big slam and pause when you land your mech in Assault Suits Valken and the viewport limitations in Steel Battalion.

 

[Servbot24]

You're saying clunky but I think you mean weighty. Clunky, to me, carries to connotation of a bad technical implementation.

Killzone 2 would be an example of that, and while it was novel it was also terribly unresponsive.

I think there's a noticeable difference. you can have weighty but also smooth.

Clunky to me means Mega Man Legends, which I do enjoy quite a bit, but I imagine if someone played that today for the first time they could be put off by it.

 

[flaxknuckles]

I liked the shooting way better in the original Metro 2033 too. It felt weightier and the enemies spongier and then Redux made it so enemies died from just waving your reticule over them with barely any feedback.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

This is pretty much just examples of mechanics imposing limitations on the player, right? A fundamental part of video games. Specifically limitations that go against "accessibility" or "flow" I guess.

Some of my favorite things that coming to mind are the big slam and pause when you land your mech in Assault Suits Valken and the viewport limitations in Steel Battalion.

Yup, smartly imposing limitations on players is a huge part of this. Very astute of you.

I think that's a reason why I love the shooting in The Last of Us. Before you fully upgraded Joel, his aim would sway unpredictably. It worked great with the slower enemy encounters. It made me feel like I was Joel: out of breath, stressed out, and full of adrenaline. Nailing a headshot felt great.

I loved that clunky/awkward limitation so much that I even removed the crosshair to make it feel even more exciting lol

I liked the shooting way better in the original Metro 2033 too. It felt weightier and the enemies spongier and then Redux made it so enemies died from just waving your reticule over them with barely any feedback.

Isn't it gross that a lot of gamers nowadays think hitmarkers are what constitutes as good feedback? Metro Redux's introduced hitmarkers. Makes me feel even more disconnected from the experience.

 

[Arion]

I am going to preach about The Last Guardian here.

A lot of people hated the game for clunky controls and frustrating AI. I can't understand why but at the same time I love the game for it.

You play is a small child in that game so of course you can't move and jump around like an acrobat. The boy controls in a very specific and clumsy way purposefully.

Trico is wild animal with his own instinct and mind. So of course he wouldn't follow your every command like a robot. I'll admit that dealing with Trico was at times very frustrating for me but that also elevated him from being a tool to solve puzzles with into a genuine companion. Many games give you companions but Trico is the only one that stands out as truly believable.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I am going to preach about The Last Guardian here.

A lot of people hated the game for clunky controls and frustrating AI. I can't understand why but at the same time I love the game for it.

You play is a small child in that game so of course you can't move and jump around like an acrobat. The boy controls in a very specific and clumsy way purposefully.

Trico is wild animal with his own instinct and mind. So of course he wouldn't follow your every command like a robot. I'll admit that dealing with Trico was at times very frustrating for me but that also elevated him from being a tool to solve puzzles with into a genuine companion. Many games give you companions but Trico is the only one that stands out as truly believable.

I feel like you kind of schooled me with that argument, cuz I have described TLG as rubbish...but now that you put it that way I might have to give it another chance.

I'm noticing that a lot of games kind of expect a certain mindset going into them. A particular perspective to appreciate the game for what it is.

Unfortunately I have had the game spoiled for me so I doubt I'll feel like I should =/

 

[Amneisac]

For me, the problem with Metro's gun combat was how the enemies didn't register being hit. There was no feedback that your bullet hit its target. I can handle the clunky aiming and stuff, but combining that with the stupid rat monsters making no reaction whatsoever to being hit made the shooting not weighty, but rather very weak and powerless.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

For me, the problem with Metro's gun combat was how the enemies didn't register being hit. There was no feedback that your bullet hit its target. I can handle the clunky aiming and stuff, but combining that with the stupid rat monsters making no reaction whatsoever to being hit made the shooting not weighty, but rather very weak and powerless.

Hmm... I admit that I only played on the harder difficulties, so maybe I never experienced that like others. It was all pretty lethal.

 

[Poltergust]

I think Haunting Ground falls into this somewhat. During the first third or so of the game, Hewie would periodically ignore your commands or go off on his own, because he hasn't built enough trust with you by that point.

Once you get far enough (assuming you treated him properly), he becomes a very reliable companion and sticks to you like glue. It truly does feel like the bond between Fiona and Hewie is actually developing as time goes on.

I can see people getting frustrated with him and dismissing the game entirely just based off of the first section of the game, though.

 

[t1ld3]

The gears of war series fall into this category for me, after experiecing the latest one on PC. You can't smoothly track enemies with rifles without using a mouse. This makes the one-shot guns dominate the multiplayer on consoles, but the overall feedback of the game is weighty and the weapons pack a strong punch.

 

[SliChillax]

I still prefer the gameplay of Bad Company 2 than the newer Battlefields

 

[arigato]

I am glad I played the original Metro 2033/Last Light on the X360 over the CODified Redux versions. Excellent games with good atmosphere and a neat soundtrack.

 

[TheOasis]

The Monster Hunter games do this. They don't have any lock-on features other than being able to re-center the camera on the monster you're fighting, so you have to manually manage every aspect of moving and adjusting the direction your player character is facing so that every attack that you do actually connects on the part of the monster you want it to. Not only does it feel like an achievement when you perfectly time, space and angle a powerful attack(s) on the specific body part you want it to but the game heavily rewards you for doing so: attacking the certain parts of a monster enough times can stun/trip them over to create large, safe openings to attack in and also break them to get item drops unique to those body parts.

The tank-like "clunky" character movement allows you to do this consistently, with great accuracy, without it being tedious like it would be if the controls were too over-responsive. Of course, this is implying that you're willing to put the time into mastering this type of movement and getting over the steep skill ceiling that the game has.

 

[PantsuJo]

Clunky gunplay?

Man, I remember Gungage... so this means that I'm too fucking old.

 

[QuantumSquid]

Killing floor and killing floor 2 have #visceral gunplay and it is amazing.

 

[Broadbandito]

killzone 2 da goat

 

[A.D. Skinner]

Clunky by design of the in game weapon being clunky, sure.

Clunky by the game being shit, nah.

 

[Bamboo]

I have some non-fps examples.

Tomb Raider. The one from 1996. All the game made in the same engine actually (till Chronicle i think?). I recently replayed the first two, still playing the third. The controls are designed for a d-pad, which should be awkward for a 3D action-adventure-platformer, but Lara still controls fairly well. The level design helps a lot. And when you manage to pull of a difficult platforming and/or action sequence, the game becomes really elegant. I was actually amazed how great it still feels to pull of some of the tricks. Giving more direct and more immediate control would alter this experience. Probably making it less satisfying.

Another cliché example is Silent Hill (1-4 at least, haven't played any other). The main characters have tank conrols, combat feels super awkward, but it's fitting. None of the main characters has extensive combat experience, it adds to the terror and threat.

Maybe Mirror's Edge fits, too. The controls are not very intuitive in the first place, you have to have a good timing and need to get a feel for the weight and speed of the character. When you manage to pull off a nice looking run it feels amazing, but it's very hard to pull off without stutters and you fail a lot at first. Gunplay is shit in the game, too but it unfortunately doesn't add anything (positive) to the game.

 

[Brian_FETO]

The Evil Within's clunky gameplay works in its favor

Your character is strong enough to deal with the enemies but unwieldy enough to never feel comfortable. Especially with the addition of traps

 

[Blobbers]

I always thought the Press Turn system from Shin Megami Tensei games lost much of its appeal when they streamlined a lot of elements for ease of use in SMT IV.
I already made a post about the QoL changes in SMT IV, and some of them pertain to the press turn system:

I hope they un-streamline a lot of things.

no more "this is effective" when I pick a spell
no insta-revive or insta-revive with a fee
no buying apps for the ability to fuse higher leveled demons
no more choosing which skills carry over, if you want the best loadout then you should be prepared to accept - back, accept - back a few times

If I forget what's effective against a demon, then I have to spend a press turn to analyze or try and get lucky but also risk being reflected. and that's fair.
I truly believe the press turn system in its "archaic" form is much better than what we got with SMT and SMT: A.

And also as someone above said: no more animu garbage.

"archaic" >>> "improved"
If I was making SMT V, I'd revert everything back to how Nocturne did it, though maybe I could be persuaded to leave the manual skill change.

 

[Ultimadrago]

Alpha Protocol ... remember? I have no idea why I finished that game.

T-The writing?

I know, I'm not really impressed with that portion either. But hey, the voice of Tigger is an antagonist!

 

[sn00zer]

I absolutely believe many of the control decisions for the last guardian are intentional

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Dead Space 1. Not that the controls weren't good, but shooting didn't feel... easy. It didn't feel like your character was an expert soldier using weapons designed to kill, because he wasn't. LT + A to reload is one of my favorite touches (of course in the sequels they just mapped reload to X like every other game).

 

[Comrade Crunch]

I just can't agree about metro 2033, the gameplay felt bad, coupled with the laser sighted AI, made for a somewhat unfun first playthrough.

Redux really tightened things up while still retaining the great survival feel.

 

[Rathorial]

While I'm sure others will disagree, I loved the gun degradation in Far Cry 2. Some of my coolest emergent moments in that game, and any open-world title, were born from me having to deal with gun jamming and finding a new weapon.

It's one of the reasons I'm interested in Zelda: Breadth of the Wild, is you're forced to use and find new weapons, and it just throws more dynamism into the game experience.

Also loved in Metro: Last Light how you could visibly see the bullet empty in the clip, and on harder difficulties had no flat on the left/right hand screen UI indication.

 

[ProtomanNeo]

Not going to lie. I complained about tank controls in Resident Evil, but looking back that is part of what made it so intense.

 

[Vader1]

I think RE's controls and mechanics are great, in that they give a sense of real purpose and deliberation to your movements and aiming. Every shot, kick, heck every step has weight and meaning behind it.

 

[sjay1994]

I feel like Spec Ops the Lines terrible mediocre gameplay really aided the narrative of that game. By the end of it on the hardest difficulty out of the box, I agreed war fucking sucks.

 

[RustCohle]

Yup, smartly imposing limitations on players is a huge part of this. Very astute of you.

I think that's a reason why I love the shooting in The Last of Us. Before you fully upgraded Joel, his aim would sway unpredictably. It worked great with the slower enemy encounters. It made me feel like I was Joel: out of breath, stressed out, and full of adrenaline. Nailing a headshot felt great.

I loved that clunky/awkward limitation so much that I even removed the crosshair to make it feel even more exciting lol

Totally agree with you on this one. Even later on in the game on Survivor or (god forbid) Grounded difficulty, you certainly feel the limitations of Joel himself. As you point out, it was obviously more prevalent before supplements/weapon upgrades but it's still a welcome gameplay approach that compliments one of the themes of survival at all costs.

 

[LordofPwn]

I enjoyed the guns in The Order 1886 because they felt realistic even though some would argue they were clunky to wield. really a shame that the story was shit because the visuals are great and weapons were fun for me to use.

 

[Synth]

Will defend the classic Tomb Raiders' controls to the death.

Also P.N.03's controls were fine, you were just playing it wrong.

 

[MaDKaT]

Reading the thread title and R.A.D (Robot Alchemic Drive) on PS2 immediately sprang to mind.

 

[Sarcasm]

Dunno about Spartan Mode in Moetro 2033 Redux, but playing Survival is pretty close. Just started playing Metro 2033 Redux on Survival Ranger Hardcore and I don't feel this easy mode yea all talking about.

Sure in that one segment where you get the handgun after the hospital the monsters die to 3 or 4 bullets to the head vs I think 5 or 6 in the OG.

Honestly what I didn't like about the OG 2033 was the bugs. In Library none of the monsters moved. I was able to just prance through. Even reloading didn't help.

 

[Spukc]

i wouldn't call monster hunter clunky tbh

 

[Floody]

I agree, I don't think it'll work with a lot of games, but when it does it just does for me. A big reason I didn't like Killzone Shadow Fall was because it lost a lot of the "weighty" feel to it's movement. Also, why I much prefer the 2 Bad Company games to the newer Battlefields, which aren't really snappy, but don't have the same weighty feel either. As for why I think it's better, I'm not too sure, but I think it's because it just helps with selling the fact that you're just another soldier in a much bigger war, instead of some god tier one man army, that a lot of other games do.